I agree with Estara, NinjaClarinet, Bobo_Underhill, Analog, Dunecat, CrazyCatLady, Skyfalling, Elorathall, OpenTheRift, and many of the other players that have voiced concerns relating specifically to how the DM team operates in terms of self-policing, storytelling, attitude towards the player base, and facilitating PC initiatives. No, it is not all bad. Yes, there are some really great people on staff. Many of them I really like as people, so saying any of this gives me no pleasure - nor is it meant to overlook or step on positive things that have been happening. But this is, as I have said time and time again, a large problem that is not just going to resolve itself.

When joining the team it was my goal to take the issues that were brought up in this thread and help facilitate those changes behind the scenes. I am fairly good at creating “social systems” as solutions to problems within a community - this is where I excel, and how I hoped to help enact positive change on behalf of our players. I did not particularly want the role because I do not relish conflict - especially with people I like. It drains me immensely. But I felt an obligation to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak. I am 23 years old and have been playing on this server for a decade. That is nearly half my life - so you know this place is important to me. You also know that I’ve seen a lot of shit go down. I very rarely get rankled by problems in the community because I’ve seen them pop up and resolve themselves over and over again. I tend to be very selective in what I choose to expend energy on, especially lately, because I have precious little of it. So the fact that I have put so many hours into trying to fix these issues should speak to how serious I believe they actually are for a community I care deeply about.

When I had joined the team had not posted (at least on the DM forums) any concrete discussion beyond the initial “notes” post Gorgometh compiled. That was sent out, and the Team asked us all for patience. Which was given. The players’ patience, in my view, was transformed by much of the team into an excuse to let the initial issues drift to the wayside - if no one was actively complaining about it, they must have forgotten, or changed their minds. So it was no longer viewed as a priority. This is turning into “yet another rant thread”, which sounds incredibly demeaning and dismissive in any context, Gorg, because many of the complaints that went beyond technical fixes and into issues with the culture of the DM team and their relationship to the player base that, after months of patient waiting, were never addressed by the team. That is our fault. Not the players’.

I will acknowledge that since the posting of that thread, many of the issues have been addressed promptly and adequately. The team elected player moderators to try and help take on the workload of managing the forum, to free them up to run plots in-game. The Requests section has gotten a huge, extremely helpful overhaul, and the team has been really careful, timely, and respectful when engaging with people within it. The DC XP/Gold rewards have been upped to make leveling easier by player request. Many of the team has endeavored to be more transparent in discussions with the player base, and I think the difference has been felt. We elected two new DMs and activity has gone up in client, though it is not nearly to where I think we need to be in terms of client activity and plot-focused DMs on staff. There have been a lot of other areas in which the team has genuinely been trying to listen to player wants and cater to them, and that is very admirable. But where we have fallen short is the “underlying issues” which, I believe, are the true crux of the problems our community is currently facing.

The current team does not have a system in place that assures accountability in dealing with players, recording plots so that the entire team knows what has been decided or done by other DMs in the game world, or any kind of formalized system for enacting any decisions. This leads to dropped plots, plot retcons, and glacially slow responses from the team in regards to actually doing things within the game world or when making decisions that affect the inner workings of the Dm team.

The team purports to run by democracy, but there is no accountability to actually be involved in said democracy. It is currently rather like if only half of the senate (excuse the US-centric example) showed up to vote on every bill. There is currently no way to ensure that all DMs “vote” on an issue, so many get buried or ignored if no one is personally interested in them, or hounds the rest of the team into responding, which from experience also gets only minimal results.

There is no system by which you “earn” your vote. DMs do not have minimum standards of participation or conduct to retain their status. So they can be completely or largely inactive, but still have a huge say in the decision making processes if they so choose. There is also no system to actually enact things that have been discussed. No one has the power to roll out an initiative because everyone on the staff is equal, thus no one feels comfortable being the one to say “ok, it’s time to do this” ESPECIALLY when only 1/3 - 1/2 of the team bothers to chime in on any given discussion. We are a democracy that doesn’t make our representatives vote, that does not hold them to any standard by which they may keep their position.

I have personally created a system by which I hoped to create minimum standards for continued membership on the DM team, proposed a Head DM to handle DM - DM or DM - Player disputes, as well as attempted to split our roles into smaller, more manageable parts so that not everyone on the team was expected to participate in every aspect of DMing. With this system DMs could pick and choose what they decided to do based on their skills and interests, which by my logic would also alleviate burnout, which has been a massive problem with our staff.

Opinions were mixed. Mixed enough that none of these initiatives have even gotten close to a consensus by which we can implement them in any meaningful way. These issues have been mounting, imo, since the end of the Arcanum plot in September. After that, there was a 5-6 month period in which the staff was almost entirely inactive. Players were patient. They waited for the DMs to get back into the groove after wrapping up such a sprawling plot that was a draining experience for a lot of us. And they waited. And they waited. And then, understandably, they began to get frustrated. In the first week of February the first of several concerned threads popped up in General Discussion - it is now May and much of those “underlying issues”, if this thread is any indication, are still very much a concern within the player base.

Unfortunately, I seem to be in a very, very small minority on the team in thinking that there are major problems within our structure and culture that require sweeping reform. But I am only one voice on the team. In a democracy, being in a small minority can be extremely discouraging and frustrating. I have thought long and hard about if my continued presence on it is simply a symptom of ”I’m right and everyone else is wrong”, and asked myself if staying on the team would truly be in the best interest of the server if my opinion is just not what most people want. I thought about it, and generally it is not difficult for me to admit if I believe that is the case.

The conclusion that I have come to is that while I am in the minority amongst the DM team, I am not among the minority amongst our players.

And the server exists for the players. Not for the DMs.

I had tried to come to a solution behind the scenes, but I do not think that it is going to happen. I hope by involving the players, we can all put the server in a positive direction. I also realize that I am only one person, and my views are my own - I welcome the perspectives of the rest of the team. This is meant not as an accusation, but to start a dialogue.

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Shadowscape Vampire was a leisurely side event, which can be picked up at any time, and gladly so, when the time is right and folks would like something to do.

While I had high hopes for the Delta Mage Academy (because it was going to be my project, where people can come and have interaction, get feedback, and I'd hold contests and then, out of my own DC purse, pay for your invention or spell, and write very nice things about you in the form of an article and let your PC be "published" and make a living as a professional inventor, researcher or wizard) I received a lot of very mean OoC feedback about it, despite how much I was willing to personally invest in it, so I decided it was the wrong time for it, even though I was very excited.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

Nice post, Alanna.

First off I must say I do enjoy seeing that a number of DMs have posted their own thoughts and opinions as well, not just their "DM team" opinion but their personal feelings too, which is great since the Team stance can be at odds with that of DMs personally and I think that DMs not being bound by wanting to put up a "united front" all the time is a good thing since often that "united front" makes it feel like another layer of separation in players effecting decision making on the server.

Big thanks to Alanna for posting a very honest, revealing look into their view on how things are operating currently and the progress that has been made and where it is still lacking.



I think that there is a good point to be made with some of this. And personally I agree completely with where you are coming from on this. Additionally I feel it also leads to other issue in that if you you have cases where you only are getting partial DM team input than you are taking an already limited representation of player views points being represented (each DMs view individually) and cutting that it half or less, which has obvious issues.

Further I believe truthfully that there is currently a bit of an issue with the team lacking some of the more hardcore lore monkeys and so a lot of votes and the like seem to get passed off the the "relevant" DM who knows the lore, which is fine, but when most of the team on a vote does that there are serious issues since even if it isn't your area of expertise it is valuable for each DM voting to at least do their own research and get their own views on things (which could be very different or even more correct than the "relevant" DM's),


Always feel like the biggest barrier to change was the DM UNITED FRONT mentality for even talking about HOW decisions are made. So it is very nice and very encouraging to see some of that wall coming down especially in this thread.

I am really thankful for Alanna's post.

In the time leading up to my departure during the big discussion on the subject in February, and my current tentative-visit as I wrap the dev work I started, this is the first time after reading a DM post that I actually feel like something may truly come of it. As difficult as the situation seems, being this honest and forthcoming about it actually encourages me to think things might improve.

It is also the first time during the dialogue on this topic I feel like we can actually discuss one of the underlying conditions of the symptoms that we have been trying desperately to remedy.

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Izariel Skyfall - Paladin of Helm / The White Wolf

Aruilther - The Bard

As a new DM, allow me to add a personal, non-rhetoric labeled response.

I'm new, but I'm also extremely active. I try to keep a presence both here on the forums and IG solving problems, handling requests, running small plots, and watching people with DC sticks at the ready. I'm on the forums at work answering a ton of PMs on my phone! That all said, I'm not your guy for a big sweeping overhaul of the forums, or how the team runs as a whole or interprets everything. I want to be in-game and involved as much as possible, while still attempting to squeeze in some PC time because I enjoy roleplaying my own stuff as well.

I always answer my PMs, and I never try to leave anyone hanging if I can help it. I'll argue on your behalf if you want to TRY just about anything unless I have a very specific problem with it, of which I inform those in question and try to find a way around it. I'm also fond of running player initiatives, smaller locations, factions, and just bringing players together who might feel stuck in their cliques or usual hangouts!

But alot of the enjoyment of these things rests entirely on you. I haven't heard about nearly any of these failed months-spanning projects and initiatives everyone keeps saying never go answered because the "DM Team is corrupt" or "we're out to entertain ourselves first." I regularly see people by themselves or with one of their usual friends spend hours upon hours formulating something for a material request without involving a broader base, and become entirely defensive when any questions are raised about it.

On that note, let me discuss some personal problems as well: A lot of you are just terrible to eachother. I don't even mean the vitriol the DM team gets for trying, which is a major cause of not wanting to continue certain projects or feeling impassioned about your or our own initiatives. Being patient with a lot of you is tiring, too. Why do players drag IC issues OOC, and vice-versa? Why is the first response to criticism or questioning often the defensive position or an angry rant? It's actually becoming more common IG that one has to be careful how they answer players for the fear of what sort of forum or skype drama it's going to cause. It's happened, passed, and recurred again from a large number of players both new and old. It's not their fault with being frustrated, but we all need to take this whole thing into perspective. I agree with Alanna that something IS broken here, because the arguments about how to go about what everyone supposedly wants that will magically band-aid the community can be rough over here too. What do you do when one Player, or a DM, feels really passionate about something they made and defends it tooth and nail? When someone digs their heels in the ground to come to someone's defense so far that reasonable conversation and problem-solving doesn't work?

I really wish it could be as easy as making a bunch of decisions like... background organization and accountability, and sticking to them. I wish I could feel like it would fix the overall feeling in the community, but I truly honestly believe that community feeling needs to fix first. A lot of us are just so rude, cruel, and nasty to eachother it gets hard to be a voice of moderation and understanding no matter how much you want to help. We can be so nasty! It's toxic, and poisonous to everyone involved and the constant exposure to it is really unhealthy.

Luckily, I believe things can get better and that they start small. I believe the fixes we need start at the core: a focus on small things, on characters, on the setting. Draw people into their characters in simple ways and involve them in smaller footings. Everything seems like it's lacking organization or a system but I argue we have way too much of it. I heard a DM say the thought in Amia has transitioned from "Fantasy" to "Scientific", where everything must be planned, explained, and researched with such minutia it kills the majesty and tires out the players, the DMs, and the plots. It's my goal to see more little factions, more interactions with NPCs and the world, and in general just more regard for one another both IC and OOC. It's a multiplayer game and we have a disturbing amount of players playing it like a single player RPG, and i'm not talking about powerbuilds and bosshunts.

Have you ever made an interesting character concept and thought "Man I could request ___ and ___ for it, it would be cool!" I have, and when I realized what I did I found out something I noticed with others that I feel really takes away from the spirit of what this whole thing's about.

tl;dr: Get our players and DMs off the forum wars and IG, and stop being so shitty to one another. Go roleplay, no one is stopping any of us.

Always good advice since there is no reason to argue for changes and fixes if you never get a chance to just enjoy the game itself. Although you also just can't just focus on IC and ignore the OOC parts of the game as one has an effect on the other.

I also feel that dismissiveness of others and their views or ideas is just as big an issue. It doesn't matter if the lack of respect is in the form of toxic comments or just by not acknowledging the voices and opinions of others and creating bad blood by being dismissive I do agree that many on Amia both players and DMs are at times guilty of one or both of these. Myself included obviously, however that said I can generally see that it comes not from purposefuly wanting to be dicks to each other but from passionate people with different views (and even just ways of expressing those views). Which is a great thing is harnessed, but to do that you need to acknowledge the issues that exist and how to change those into assets.

+1. From the perspective of the layman player, that sounds like a no-brainer course of action.



It is that easy. The community standards and feeling start with you guys and trickles down.

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The spirit of the first section was actually something I eluded to in my farewell post as a DM. So true, imo. So true. As is the rest of what i quoted. I really believe that before we do anything else to 'fix' any problems, these points need to be addressed first. Nothing else can happen until the 'community' is a 'community' again,and not player vs. player.

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I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.

The presence of one problem does not preclude the repair of another. Often, the two issues being discussed go hand in hand, and progress towards solving one will contribute to the improvement of the other.

If I may interject for a minute again here- it sounds as if people are agreeing on the issues, but disagreeing on the conflict resolution process? Is that right? Just going to do a kind of recap, here, Letum-style (though not as pretty because it's late and I'm tired):

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Identifying problems: Conflict over how the server culture is in flux, conflict over how easy help is to get on player-initiated things and DM overarching plots and conflict over personal DM styles vs. player styles.

--

Possible solutions:

Final edit, I think: No more solutions listed here or names!

Can I just say...?
I love you gais...

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Not to mention the fact that the playerbase is large and diverse enough that policing ourselves to be a better community is difficult. For example, I have no idea who is being mean to who or why, so I cannot personally make any contribution to that problem. The biggest contribution I can make is by ensuring that I myself am not a problem. And this is how it should be all the time.

The difficulties on the DM side, as soundly put forth by Alanna, are a different creature. Difficult, but managable with the right effort and attitude. And with patience and understanding from the players, which you do have, in spite of appearances.

By the way, to the DMs, if there is anyone on your team saying that this is all the griping of a vocal minority, that it will blow over and go away eventually, that maintaining a status quo is vital to Amia...don't listen to that person, because that person seems to be very incorrect in his or her assessment of the situation. Remember that Amia really kinda is on its last legs, it's home stretch, and that the very best thing we can do with it is try to make it fun for the present while it lasts, and accept that its future is not something worth sacrificing immediate gratification to preserve.

I know that is a bold statement from a developer, and there are good arguments against my feeling there that won't brook argument from me. But it is how I feel and it would make me happy to see DMs really trying to break this fear we built when it comes to doing and not doing certain things.

I want to answer almost all of these posts with "Yeah, but..." until the point where I lose the energy to even be concerned. I agree with a lot, but then something I couldn't disagree with more strongly follows and then I just want to shake my head and walk away. I'm here because I have made some very good friends on Amia, and met some people who I do not know well enough to consider friends, but find their roleplay compelling enough that I value it. Whenever I speak up, I do it because I want to keep them here. I just don't know what to say anymore about this thread.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

Small update: I just sent a rough draft for some Cordor law reform to Kobra for revision, so Cordor players shouldn't have to wait too much longer for more information on that. Is more information wanted about the legal situation in other settlements?

The Ruathym Lore Timeline is also in the polishing stages, and will include Ostland, Caraigh, and Wiltun, and also have cursory information and history about the war with Ostand, the war with Luskan, and cursory information about the nearby small island Jarldoms of Axard and Nerth. Information about the actual Ruathym island will also be included, as well as information about the region.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

I think the direction this thread has gone is really cool.

I think that the players have been conducting themselves really responsibly, even in the voicing of concerns. And I think Alanna's taking a pretty bold move. BurningOutBright's suggestions for players is spot-on, and something that should generally be encouraged both ways.

But as someone who's been on all sides of these discussions before, I urge staff members to not feel threatened by the content of this discussion. Talk of accountability or redesigning the way our DM/Player structure & expectations work might at first seem to be aimed at uprooting current staff members, or causing general distress--- But it shouldn't be! If anything, players are asking for more of you, and if you can finesse the timing, this is a great way to demonstrate a greater care in the interests of storytelling and the players within our community than the administrative systems.

Actually, now that I think about it: Why can't the same advice given to players about interacting with DM's apply to this OOC communication as well? The recommendations we were given to help in getting involved and to help drive initiatives were to more clearly communicate our goals and interests with each other. Can we do that on the forums, as players? Can that achieve a similar coordination? I think so.

I'm glad you think so. I actually really like this thread and it has been giving me some nice perspective on what I can do to better serve players, and I think it's the first time I've been asked what I look for from players to help me out in being able to provide for them.

I would, actually, like to see communication between the community members about what they want to see from each other, and what would help them interact with each other.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

I feel I really need to dissect this, because I don't think it's quite the vibe I'm trying to convey. I'm well aware that I refuse to candy coat anything I post, but it's not not my intention to make anyone "answer" for anything. What I want is a system in place so that the mistakes stop happening in the first place. I see that BoB and Gorgometh took personal offense to my enumerations, but I've nothing against either of them. I don't believe punishing anyone for anything will solve anything.

I know that DMing is a thankless job. I've been taken to task by players I've ran plots for, that weren't satisfied by anything I do. I've been taken to task by head DMs for screwing up. I in turn, took other DMs to task when I was running the show. I get it. Been in those shoes. I can entirely understand the animosity of "players are a bunch of ingrates" or "whiny bitches" or "immature brats". Same page. Bro fist.

Unfortunately, you signed up for it. There will be criticism. I and others will heap it on gleefully in spades, because we think we know better. That is the nature of the beast, and it has remained unchanged since the 2002-2003 when the first PW modules started being hosted (I've been at this for an embarrassingly long amount of time). I don't "demand" perfection. What -would- like to see is accountability and oversight, so it isn't mob rule by the most aggressive DM at the time.

I recognize the community has issues with vitriol, but some of the things I see elsewhere make this forum look tame. The DMs lead by example, and their attitudes -must- be the first to change. They bleed through more than you realize.

The basic list of "demands" that I think players are entitled to would be thus:

A right to respect.
A right to professionalism.
A right to honesty.
A right to transparency.
A right to grievance and debate, and a reasonable expectation of action on fair points.

A right to a reasonable assurance that that standards of fair play, story quality, commitment, and contribution/work load are applied to all DMs equally by an individual or group of individuals that maintains good rapport with the larger community.

I don't believe I'm completely out in left field with these expectations. As it stands, Amia's governing structure is not only unwilling to provide those things, but systemically incapable of it by the professed structure it uses. I could find no definition that describes how Amia is organized. A ruling elite that is chosen not by merit, but by popularity among the rest of the ruling elite cannot be described as an Aristocracy, or even an Oligarchy. The closest term I could find was a Nepotocracy. I don't personally know of many of those that have proven viable over time, but I'm a poor historian at best.

In short, Estara's words are correct on paper, but fail to adequately convey how I feel on the matter.

I don't think I did, NC. I think you have every right to express yourself, even if it stings a little bit for me.

Edit: I realized I misread that he said. I still think he has the right to express himself, but I don't think I took it personally, as much as I took it into consideration, despite it being a little bit of a sting due to criticism.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

In response to Estara, I don't believe that the solution will come in 'any way'. We've arguably been trying that system for the better part of this year.

Although my initial topic derailed a little bit, this is certainly a discussion worth having as the point of this thread was to illuminate underlying issues between PCs and DMs trying to grasp at straws to make it fun for a playerbase who has grown tired and rather bored. Initiative goes both ways. I'd like to say an attitude change is all we need, but it's really not. There's needs to be a lot more implemented than that.

And judging from Alanna's post, which I'm so, so, *so* thankful for seeing here, an inkling of solution a lot of us would probably agree with fails to work. The problems ring from both sides, DM and PC, and as such could not possibly be remedied by one generalized solution.

We need to work together and open the lines of communication between PCs and DMs, possibly even a whole other sub topic/forum itself that is monitored in case things get rough. We don't need to get devensive as many of us have been getting over civilized and constructive criticisms, just hear one another out.

I know how it feels from the shoes of the critisized, trust me. But sometimes we have to pull our head out of our asses and see what's right in front of us.

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Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!

I'm really happy the thread took a turn back towards constructive, because there is a lot of worth here. I have said openly and behind scenes that there's a lot of "shit flinging" in this thread and others. It was a poor choice of words, because there are diamonds here, but when assertions that the entire team is corrupt or doesn't want to change or... doesn't care. That's the stuff that hurts. That is the sort of baseless post that stems from frustration and emotions but works only to do harm to another party.

We care, we listen, but sometimes we don't know how to change. Alanna has put forth some very reasonable framework for some reorganizing and accountability behind the scenes here. The problem is: what happens when you can't all agree on how best to implement it? Let me boil down some of the points and the arguements.

Accountability : We need this. Accountability for DMs being naughty isn't what I'm concerned about because I genuinely don't believe the team is corrupt. Accountability to keep DMs on the same page regarding plots, settings, npcs, and plans is what many feel are missing. One argument is that we don't have a system for reporting or logging these things in a meaningful way and we need to decide on those basics first. Another argument is how much needs to be logged? If Timmy fell down a well and a group of PCS dragged him out... that hardly has impact on the server and is mainly an impromptu tool for entertainment or a quest of sorts. Do we log each and every interaction? Every pm, every NPC and monster spawn? We all have different styles which is good, but you never know when clever players will become invested in something and decide to turn your quest into something more. A thought has been brought up regarding a bit of incentive for the masses of forum work, since we only get tangible benefits from being IG on the client which doing writeups of every little thing takes away time for.

Organization: One plan is to split up roles between administration and storytelling. It is said in this thread that DMs may pick and choose their focus based on what they like and are good at, which is similar to what we do now. Alanna prefers written work and I prefer being IG with the players, so we differ wildly on our ideas of actually doing the DM thing. It is believed that splitting up the DMs will allow more time for storytellers to tell stories and admins to do administration stuff etc etc. Sounds great! But what about when you have a DM that does it all in equal measure, or.. you have DM that actively tries to be involved on all fronts so they can help and be in the know, and perhaps grow and learn to be better? These concerns weren't considered or... were not addressed in the original suggested which looked a lot more like a solid framework for rigid construction in the team before talks were had. Another concern for this: if someone is a storyteller will a player be afraid to go to them for problem solving or admin tasks? It is potentially alienating to the base. Some of us believe a DM should be well rounded and participate everywhere, and some of us think we should be able to focus down hard on only the things we like. That's a sample of what's going on there.

It sounds simple to say "we gave the DMs our wants and nothings been done! Or "I proposed this but nobody took it and ran with it!" But the talks ARE happening. Talks aren't good enough but the folks with the hard solutions just aren't done yet. My way of dealing with all of this has been to give feedback best I can and jump IG where I feel we are needed most.

One thing I think we have a consensus on: we aren't fast enough. Our decisions need to come quicker and we need to be willing to take more risks with them. I have taken a hard stance on "let players try things" but I haven't yet applied that stance to this side of the curtain. If I thought I was Head DM material I wouldn't hesitate to jump in and start putting the stamp and boot on things that have enough kinks worked out that they can be servicable. Speaking with Alanna about... all of this, last night, has given me the perspective that we should just up and go and fix problems as they arise instead of waiting until we feel a product is perfect before sending it out the door!

So that's what it is, to me. We all have differing philosophies we need to reconcile and unresolved problems with suggestions for improvement we need to address, and then we need to just kick shit out the proverbial door. I don't see any reason we can't test more things out in the open and see if they fail before assuming they ewill. Anything we put in play should, in theory, be just as easy to remove if they simply don't work out. That is, if we can bargain for a bit of understanding that we want to do right by everybody, even the jerks, and that it's damn near impossible to make a decision everyone's happy with both DM and playerside.

That pleases me the most to hear. Especially the risk-taking part.

Keep updating me. I altered some wording because it's daytime and I'm rested. I added some things in and took most of the humor out, because it looks like people did seem to back away from the acid. Thank you to those who corrected me. Although I still tried to keep it short for those who may be jumping into the topic late and want a quick overview, and for summary to come back to, I hope the reformatting and rewording is more appropriate.

Names in parentheses mean I'm unclear if they belong there, still. I'm also happy to combine more people's solutions together. I only separated them for ease of reading and knowing who proposed them. I understand that some people agree with more than one and if you want your name in more than one, I'll be happy to add it! If this is not helpful to anyone, I will be happy to stop. I started it mainly because it helps me. Ha!

I'd rather you remove me from your summation. - You haven't adequately captured my feelings on the matter(s) at all.

Likewise please.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

Could either of you more accurately and concisely present your actual feelings for Estara, since he has it incorrect?

Was posting as you asked, Yoss, because I'm sure Burning would agree, but I know that Estara is just trying to summarize thoughts for everyone to be able to quickly reference the way the conversation played out, but doing that does not justify the way I feel about things.

Me pushing the team soon after the big player meeting, nagging and being annoying about adding new DM's and fresh team members all around and going to bat for you and others so things can get done is what I'm doing to change things for the better. And it's what has to happen for the team to adapt and be successful. - I'm all about it.

I do not think it starts with players fixing their attitudes. It's a part of it, but I don't think players or the Team are in the wrong at all. - I genuinely feel like this has got to be a partnership and to me, this thread went from positive conversation, to rant, and now we're back to a positive conversation where we can flush out feelings about reorganizing the team (which I've been all about) rejuvenating player control (which I've been all about) and putting the focus back on you guys. That's what I want.

I think we ALL need a little patience, but I do want you to take me off your list. I don't want to be summarized.

I'll be responding later today with my summation.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

No problem about not wanting to be summarized. You said earlier you did not even want to be involved in the thread, but I'm glad you've changed your mind about that. Leadership like that is critical.

What challenges have you faced trying to accomplish things the way you have been trying to accomplish them? Anything that anyone can help with?

It's not like change isn't happening, Yoss. It is. And it was good I stepped away from the thread yesterday, because I was getting frustrated.

Change has to be a slow, methodical and deliberate thing. We're not used to that because we've become such an instant gratification society. - But when there is so much that has to change, that means that some things, some fixes, take priority and progress on certain fronts suffers for it.

It is not and will not be a sweeping thing. - It's the same experience I have in real life, with my real job, managing national reaching programs. - A client comes to me, asking for help doing X. "Sure," I say, "we can absolutely do that. - Just be aware, when I do X, that means that my attention is being diverted from Y, Z, and all of the other projects I am currently devoting my time to."

The Team, because we're not just DM's, has made great strides to bring new content, new attentions and features to our server, despite the age of the game and the dwindling player-base itself. We're putting all this attention and time into this obsolete thing because we all love coming together and roleplaying with one another to escape. - But if you want us to help, we need your help too. Patience, clearly defined priorities so we know what you want us to sideline so we can focus on what matters. (Try doing that with a playerbase the size of ours, with as many perspectives and opinions as ours, and try giving me clear and concise priorities that everyone can agree on.) That would personally help me and probably help the management of the server.

It may sound cliche', but we're our own challenge at this point. Arguing in circles, talking about the same things, but I hope the discussion will revitalize some of the initiatives Alanna mentioned in her post. We're long past due for a head DM, in my opinion, and clearly defined roles that can keep the team accountable, within reason. - But it does not stop with the Team, it takes just as much understanding and objectiveness from everyone else too.

There are indeed a lot of changes and new initiatives in play here and I for one am quite suppressed at how well they have been handled in some areas and understand with new things there may be a rocky start. I'm also surprised to see just how quickly these changes have come in to play. It's good and I look around and see a lot of hard work on other fronts but still an underlying factor is communication. Due to how we need to communicate is seems some thing don't get to everywhere they need to go or offered effort doesn't seem to get put to what it could be best put towards.


Then again I know I'm only seeing one half of the picture here, but I know the tremendous amount of work that goes go in to just about each 'job' or task behind the scenes. If some one wants to do the work I say enable them and give them something to work on some times folks will ask for it it's good to keep an eye out for the capable and willing.




During the in game meeting I spoke out a bit and offered my view on one front and honestly I've seen changes start to occur and I'm rather happy for them. So I would like to go a head and thank every one on the team for taking those views and opinions seriously and doing something about it. Really it's appreciated!

Even now because of this thread and even with my cut down game time I've seen some small changes from PC's and Dms a like, IG that have happened because of this thread and it's honestly a breath of fresh air.

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Oh hell yeah! I'm at work all day and on my phone, so anyone feel free to go into my post and edit people's names out or the whole thing in general. It's too large for my phone to handle quickly, and I don't have time to scroll through and edit. Although from what Gorgs is saying it might be best to just take the list of presenting conflicts and order them into what's top priority in the players' minds and what is not.

Personally, I think more fresh DM blood and assigning DMs to the players/places who feel burnt out and upset would do a lot of good, if only to hear them out on what initiative they're looking for. Like Burning suggested. Also, serbiris, I'm glad to see you wrote something! Please elaborate.

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Izariel Skyfall - Paladin of Helm / The White Wolf

Aruilther - The Bard

I have to say, Merc, your stream-of-consciousness writing is exceedingly hard to engage with constructively, but I'll attempt to.



Frustrated? Yes. Baseless? Absolutely not. I never once said the "entire" team, but yes, I do believe a large majority has reached a point of apathy, stagnation, or outright hostility that they no longer serve Amia's best interests. If remarks are hitting too close to home, then it might be telling. I don't believe that it can "only" do harm. Most people lately have been extremely tentative about how they interact with the team, and I believe that time and place has come and gone with how long we've been left stewing. I'm going to be frank with my words because I think it's time for a little dose of reality.



It's better to try -something- new and to be wrong than it is to try the same things that don't work repeating. Age old cliche about insanity. The fact that you can't reach a decision on how to implement a system that allows decisions to be made is just laughable ironic. Just -do- something.



Most times instances get reported on misconduct, they are largely brushed off, so I suspect people have stopped bothering to say anything about it. What you believe or not is irrelevant to the importance of having systems in place to prevent it in the first place. If there isn't misconduct, then great! The precautions weren't needed and don't get used. I think it would be beneficial, however, if I and others started more dutifully reporting every sketchy bit.



Yes, yes you should. It's not hard to have notepad (or even the IG journal) open to make bullet notes on anything and everything you do client side. Every DM should have a thread of their collected notes. "PC's helped Timmy out of a well" is a perfectly valid entry, especially since I know you're all supposed to be utilizing a PC reputation tracker system Glim implemented. You can't even get basic plot notes on the -massive- plots or the NPCs involved in them, because people "don't like writing big posts". That's frankly shameful.



You just explained the very reasons why adequate note-taking is all the more important, because you never know what might balloon. I assume you mean you're not getting your DM dream coins for forum work...??? Regardless, adequate paperwork pays off in triplicate soon as a DM loses interest and someone is left scrambling to pick up the pieces (when they bother to do so at all), and I dare anyone to argue with that. If you're not cut out for writing after action reports, frankly, you're not cut out to DM on such a large metropolis.



Obviously, I haven't seen Alanna's framework, but I would be honestly surprised if people weren't able to apply for multiple positions. Having clearly delineated spheres of influence keeps people where they are competent. People that are competent in multiple fields can be hired or fired from multiple positions based on review. That's a very vague objection, and I can't help but read it as a personal fear of having someone in a position to critique your work.



Well...consider them considered, I guess?



I agree! DMs -should- be well rounded and adaptable! Absolutely! I've love a team of completely well-rounded DMs. Let's not kid ourselves, though, some of you belong in niches. A DM desiring to do a Thing does not, in my mind, make that DM immediately qualified to do that Thing, which is why I believe a supervisor and specific roles (that you can be in multiple of!) is absolutely more than past due.



It's been months. -Months-. Let's see a timeframe for a proposed solution past "we're talking! Be patient!"



If you try to please everyone, you won't please anyone. You don't need to reconcile differing philosophies. You need to decide on a server direction, leadership, and a philosophy, and -do it yesterday-.

You'd be well-suited to give us an estimated timetable, then? We're told repeatedly that things are happening and to be patient for months on end and we're given beautiful prose about what's up, but solid dirt is next to non-existent. Give us meat, man.



I'm sure the new content is lovely, but I also know the developers and scripters have next to no say in leadership. They are separate beasts. If there was sufficient delegation, I suspect that the Team would be better equipped to address multiple areas of improvement simultaneously.



Do you intent to delegate someone to gathering polls and census data, or ask for volunteers?



Circular arguments should be telling. As Yoss has been saying, they aren't just going to go away because they've been discussed before.

Yeah, we can be blunt now, NC. I do prefer it.

Honestly? I might be. Hell, I could probably do a great job at cataloging different IC projects across the spectrum, establishing lead times for resolution and implementation. I could probably get it super close and pester the team for progress and this and that, but my time is limited.

I'm just one guy on a team of other DMs that are overseeing their own projects and areas of expertise. If you think for a second I'm going to dedicate a significant fraction of my time, that I dedicate to my real life occupation, which pays my bills, you're mistaken. Ain't happening. I honestly don't think there is an adequate way for me to "give us meat, man."



No point in addressing this. You'd be surprised at how much say they have in things getting done and what things get touched, but I'm not touching on that.



Me personally? No. Seems like Estara is taking the reins or something akin to it and I'm not in a position to delegate tasks to anyone.



Who said they were going away or should? Implying something is one thing, but putting words in other people's mouths is another. My point is simple: Change for things takes time and will continue to take time.

Are there things we can do quickly? Absolutely. Can we get answers to people faster? Sure. But making a lasting change to an system that has slowly broken down over time is not solved by simply doing those two things.

I apologize if laying out some of the hurdles I've noticed in the coming changes are difficult to engage with constructively. I really don't know what to do to help you there.

Calling the team at large "corrupt" I feel is meaningless. Actual complaints of things people you feel are doing wrong, right, or not at all are different (I am aware they exist here in this thread!) I don't know if it's just because you're not seeing what I see every day, but there's work here on it on various fronts pretty consistently. The problem is coming to a unified decision because, like every one of you, we all have our own opinions and there are a lot of solid arguments. You're making arguments right now for what we should do that I have seen others make, but I have also seen good arguments from the other side to say we shouldn't, or, should simply find a better way to do it than is presented. We have no shortage of "idea guys" but when the blade meets the grindstone.

My problem with your synopsis here is that you make a lot of inferences. I don't "fear critique to my work" just because you find an objection vague-- I'm trying to illustrate where some of the problems arose in the DM threads. I told you where I feel our problems lie and I gave out some information on where we're getting or have gotten held up in communication. Though I value the input I wasn't necessarily asking you for the solution, but saying the solution to these topics are being debated so we can do things the BEST way. Fear of doing them wrong is stopping us from doing anything at all, and it's stemmed from something far removed from "apathy." Many of the good points and arguments both here and behind the scenes were made by talking about these things and criticizing presented ideas and molding them into the shape they are now. This is why I said we need to take more risks-- iron out the very obvious problems and try things out.

It is getting to the point though that any attempts to communicate and be transparent, when they are not simply echoing the types of things you are saying (which are lovingly posted multiple times in different forms in this thread, threads elsewhere, and in several places on the DM forums) are just met with the same argument because the people involved feel the problem is the same. We're discussing it and implementing things slowly,, but what I gather in reaction is "you've had enough time to discuss it, get it done now." About how many times do you think you have to say it before it stops having any effect? It's going to be to the point here that people will stop wanting to be transparent, if every time someone comes forth with issues that exist people tell them they don't like those issues.

Since we've heard the problems that seemingly entirely originate with the DM team and not any of the players, and we're not working fast enough, has the community itself spoken and actually decided on what they'd like to see as the overall "Server Direction" other than labeling it player-focused? Because to me, that is vague in that it doesn't mean a lot. Of course it should be more player focused, but I wouldn't mind a concise, formal statement of what exactly that is and frankly I haven't seen one. What is Amia's server direction, and what should it be? What's the formal system of use to agree upon it on an official capacity?



The entire argument here is circular, and I'm just wondering which facet of it is going to tire out first. We spend a surprising amount of time here on the forums dealing with these sort of issues and not actually off drafting or making anything, or doing our work IG. What we're doing, right now in these previous posts, is simply telling you where we are-- saying where we are isn't saying that is our solution, but I figured you might want to know where it currently sits because it has been asked for by others.

EDIT: As a disclaimer, before it is brought to my attention, all of my words are from my perspective alone and are not representative of the entire team's feelings on our work, progress, or current state.

Yes, all of my yes. I personally have offered this skill set to the team because I *really* think we could use some room to air it out with each other and revitalize interest by working one on one with members of the playerbase who are really struggling.

I'm currently DMing on a server that's relatively newer than Amia but has recently just been popped back online after a year of being down. I offer the same help over there with older players who really don't know how to settle into the groove of things and feel like they don't belong anymore. They didnt enjoy the way plots were ran and the like. On my first day I was in the client for about six or so hours, just handling those rant sessions.

I really did enjoy it to be honest, and the players were given satisfactiom by being heard out. Especially by new blood who have no real opinions on them yet. They felt a lot better and seem to want to stick around for the changing tides.

Really, like Gorgy said, patience is pretty key. We have to give each other time to speak our piece and get things moving. We also should try not to be entirely dependent upon DCs or DM supervision for player-lead events. Once again, initiative goes both ways.

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Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!

What I would like to see the most for (edit:) from the players is to begin taking more initiative with player-hosted events and creating dm-independent communal roleplay. Arcane lessons, bardic events, divine ceremonies, public auctions, etc. I really miss the loss of the Storytelling Union, the arcane roleplay of the Tower of Mystra and those great Casino Nights that were hosted by the Black Flag. I am sure there is some out there, but seeing players grow more active in trying to entertain one another would be something I know would help make me more enthusiastic about Amia again.

Players already cut out middle men as much as they can, its why having the "Personnel" list up to date is key as the more middle men the higher chance of broken telephone + increased time waiting. Shifter/druid stuff goes to Amarice so its better to go to them direct then PMing Alanna per say for her to just PM Amarice.

Sometimes its better to accept ones downfalls and let people focus on what they are good at, not everyone will be a good storyteller DM, but they could be great at balance so they would be the ones checking over DC requests for item power, custom spells.....ect Monster balance for new zones or anything of that nature. on the flip side tons of DMs might be trash at balancing monsters (( look at all the times DM spawned monsters nuke everyone and said DM has to despawn it)) but story wise they are great.

IC we do the same with factions of PCs and in the real world, focusing on your skill set is better then doing something your no good at, in turn making it half-assed.

Why do you think Avadon does all the diplomatic stuff/social interactions, I myself don't do well with that, I'm the more hands on mechanical type who thinks of ways to improve/fix problems. I'm the guy who renovates a worn down house and my partner Avadon is the charismatic sales person who gets you to buy it.....he sells people to visit a island of undead that will try to rip your face off nightly to so many people.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Alright. I actually spent another few hours trying to hammer out a reply today. I struggled with ordering my thoughts, my unpopular opinions and well the fact that I have to go to work soon. So I wrote a summary, and tried to organise my points into the order I laid out.

On Leadership, DMing, and the meat of the server (RP)

1. DMs have put themselves in an awkward position with the best intentions, being more permissive than years past in what they give to players. This satisfies those players short term but they will then ask for more, leading to some PCs becoming overly powerful and wielding it at instigators, or new players adjusting to the server. Worse, you can't take power away without making PCs feel cheated. This leads to stagnation, requiring player initiatives to rely on DMs, or when none can initiate, to simply wait for DMs to show up.

2. Player initiatives have become more important (clarification: I don't mean holding a festival or whatev, I mean a PC/player calling up a DM and being all "I want to do this" and the DM facilitates). This places even more power in the hands of few, leading to resentment. Player initiatives also tend to involve taking safer courses of action because that makes sense ICly - taking risks means losing your position or your whole PC, without anything to show for your work. Not everyone likes that. It becomes lose-lose-lose for leaders - resentment either way, then a safe boring course or stupidly high risks.

3. DM-run Vignettes are a solution. People have always liked them, especially dungeon runners who are suddenly forced to RP instead of grind (usually... in my experience). For "Builder" type players who amass power/resources for their faction, they present another way to gain resources without hijacking DM attention. BoB handles this well in Wiltun, with a long-running plot built of smaller adventures where we're challenged but feel we're making progress. But one-offs are just as good. However they are time consuming, require more planning than we think (especially to stop players from trying to drag them further/milk more power out), and a shift towards vignettes would be a shift away from player initiatives - is the playerbase ready to sacrifice their agency for the greater good of the server? The power we have not only worked for, but been encouraged to work for?

4. Instigators are currently being punished for threatening the status quo. They face an uphill battle and are painted as selfish when even the most minimal-RP powergamer (a theoretical person, not a specific example) will, like it or not, make the server more interesting for others (if only as a byproduct) through their actions. If we can't move away from player agency, we should at least offer more support to challenges against the status quo. Yes, there are costs to this - people will squawk harder about DM attention and fairness, you lead to problems with #1 of "taking away what you have given freely". Instigators face more OOC pressures and may quit, leaving their DM support behind. Some of these are solveable (eg: DMs agreeing to progress without instigator).

5. To diffuse excess power built up by PCs without making them feel cheated, we find "power sinks". Just like gold sinks, but convert personal/political power into something valuable that doesn't immediately threaten instigators or result in stagnation. Like a king establishing a barony or something.


Maybe more to come after work, about corruption and player attitudes.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

BoB you asked, assuming I recall correctly anymore, what do the players want from other players. I can look the quote later, am on my phone as I type now. So apologies if I misread or just think you asked it.

To Players: Be inclusive, not exclusive. One if the largest reasons why I don't feel like playing my main so much anymore is the fact that people try constantly to be exclusive in plots. Sure, we can all fall back on making IC reasons, but sometimes it is more fun to be more flexible and see what happens. Then again, I don't bother taking my IC too seriously anymore. Second largest reason is that, as stated by DM's, there are toxic OOC. I've learned of OOC reasons being behind of how my character is met IC. Such actions do not want me to remain. So please, while I understand it feels important to succeed at times, just be inclusive in your approach to other players and their characters. Event if that sometimes means you need to give up a bit of your hardcore IC reasoning. Hope that made any sense.

Back in the day, it was very easy to get in with other players and events happening. Nowadays, there seems to be more and more player vs. Player conflict. While can be rewarding, can as well increase the toxic atmosphere. I would like to see that inclusive atmosphere restored personally. Please note my observations might be biased due to having played a character who was through IC effort excluded at times.

Dm once told me a word of advice: Be inclusive. It generates role play while exclusion does not. Even if that means that your character hates another character, there are ways to establish IC\IG interaction. Being inclusive also means including your DM to understand what is your goals and motives for what your working for. By creating experiences with one another, we hopefully create positive feelings of interaction at which we can laugh at later on. For example: When a certain bard cut down the damn negotiator. Not how I planned the event to turn out, but damn. Now it just makes me laugh to have included a bit impulsive bard into the equation.

Hope I did not derail from the topic too muc. Apologies if I did.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

Firstly, I apologize to anyone who was unhappy being included in my summation! And Burning, I'm mad at you for not posting yours yet. Grr! (Not really.) I'm going to leave the identified conflicts, and I suppose it can be broken off into a rating system, but last time I created a poll it didn't seem to get much movement. That's my only worry here. This thread has been going well, and truly, I appreciate NC's words, and do not agree that they were wholly ranting. We've all seen ranting. His words contained nuggets of very real, and very powerful truths. Whether it was phrased with venom and delayed aggression? Well, it's debatable, but as we're all agreeing that things have been moving far too slowly- who's to really blame him? I left the server for two years because I was being ball-busted by a DM in public. It's a very painful feeling to have a player come at your throat, but it's even more humiliating to have a DM (with a Team to potentially back them) come back at yours. The power dynamic may seem inconsequential to a standing DM, but even perceived power has consequences.

I think these subjects are hitting a lot of personal chords, and Gorgometh, because I respect you and know you well and admire the role you've taken on the Team lately, I urge you to explore why it touched you so deeply. Not just your stance- and not just why it is your stance (thank you for the job information, it makes a lot of sense)- but why did you need to step away? Did someone say something that was truly out of line, or was it just hard to hear, like Burning said? Are you getting overwhelmed by the topic for personal reasons? Are you burnt out yourself? What Alanna and Burning have done is brave, and unprecedented in years, to publicly agree with players and try to instigate change by aligning with these players on a list of issues. To lay out their opinion on such a radical assessment of the Team, and to explain personal history and preference, and what they've seen go on behind the curtain and over time... I'm not sure I've seen anything like it before, at least not in a long time, and I hope they know how much I admire the courage it took and the level of respect I have for their wording, as well. Nekhy and Disco would sometimes break the wall of separation down, as Head DMs, which I think was the biggest benefit of having them (though there were also detriments, as well)!

I really want to see you do the same, Gorgometh. And you, Mercedes. What I think NC means by "meat" is to do just that- what do you two think on what your fellows have begun here? Do you have a list of preferences like Burning? Do you think the Team is improperly aligned, like Alanna? I also wonder if that's why so many other DMs besides you three have ignored this thread thus far. I say 'ignored' on purpose. You may have read it, you may have talked about it behind-the-scenes, but- talk about it here. I speak to Amarice, to Letum. I speak to Dusty, who got heavily involved in the last, and has seemed inactive and quiet since. These are three people who have been heavily involved in changes and conversations on them in the past. Why haven't you commented yet, for the player base to see? Is it just these four DMs- Alanna, Burning, Gorgometh and Mercedes- just these four that see this as a topic worth really digging their attention and time into?

DireCorbie- what a chance to make a profound impact upon a discussion, and to see your DM Team clearly trying to manage a change that you are one of the first steps in. Silky, Rigela, Manarethan, and others who have taken a step back on activity levels- what are your comments on the regulation of activity hours and your current experience? While I'm totally grateful for everyone's opinions, and I'm loving the concept of a topic of player/DM/setting preferences on engaging in meaningful RP, I really just think the conversation will die again unless more DMs step into the fray. It will lilt, and wither, and die, because this conversation can't go anywhere unless there is at least half of the ruling elite willing to discuss it and possibly change.

Here is the list of identified conflicts once more, and I've deleted the names of people's possible solutions, and instead just left some of them as words. I'm going back through the other posts to delete the names as well. Also, I thought about doing the list format, but I just.. didn't. Sorry. If one of you mods wants to come in and make it look prettier, feel free! I really don't mind people messing with my posts in this thread to make them better. (Watch, now someone is just going to go delete them all. Hahaha! I would laugh.)

I almost don't know how to respond to this discussion, other than it doesn't seem like it belongs in this thread, rather the other one that is referenced, continuously notorious as "underlying issues".

Playing devils advocate here with regards to leaders and the future of Amia in regards to both DM's, and players:

I will just say that I've noticed a culture change that has made the server's population feel entitlement towards having a DM facilitate a ton of RP. It used to be different, at least in my "circles." When I played a Banite, co-leading a faction which was probably the largest in Amia's history (30+ members at one point), it was rare that we needed a DM to specifically move on in our RP at every step of the way. We had like 9-10 steps we could take before we got to that point, and that helped keep people interested and busy. By contrast, I've noticed that any time anything remotely consequential and non-social is being roleplayed, it gets stonewalled much quicker, because people just stop at "We need a DM" instead of RP'ing those 9-10 steps. Even when I was motivated to play my drow, I was able to move plots by myself, despite Dusty being very scarce at times. It wasn't just me, obviously, I applaud everyone down there for taking the example and amplifying the effort into making the most of the story. At the same time, I got burned out on my drow, because I felt like not enough of the population was contributing enough of their own story. Not the DM, but the players themselves.

The DM's are human beings, with full time jobs. They inherit work that is not their own; and they may not even agree with and run with a story the best they think how. If factual inaccuracies occur, I feel like these things could be worked on a player leader to DM basis, like I did with Glim a long time ago with Tarkuul. He did listen to me then, and I'm sure some DM's who get stuck taking over things would be willing to listen to you as well. If things in areas that you are involved with happen that you don't agree with; good. Try to accept it and come up with new cool ideas to facilitate it. It's a story, embrace the change. If everything is predictably boring, all you're doing is playing pre-written quotes in a movie script.

A lot of the weight for the flux in culture is not on the DM, but the playerbase itself. I'm of the mind that we've delved into the social side of the roleplay, spending more time focusing on those aspects. This happens, because of the type of RP that people engage in, and it's what they make the DM's spend time making rulings on, or watching. It also happens as a result of some DM events itself, so it's more of a global dilhemma than any one individual entity. This has been a problem now for longer than 3 years though, so dropping this on the DM team is kind of disingenuous to them. Amia had a choice to become more of a RP/consequence/self conducting RP server, with threads that resurfaced many times over; for example Death Penalties. But since the consensus of the playerbase was to argue in circles, the only possible outcome was to do nothing. In this, I think I have to disagree with you Estara. Sometimes, the DM's need to take a direction, because they are the only ones who can. Getting everyone to agree on one thing is practically impossible, and if one dissenting player has the ability to cause a stink, the stench will never clear up, even if they acceded to every last one of your demands. I promise, there will always be something to complain about, as nothing is perfect.

Go easy people. What makes Amia fun is the overall plots you get involved in without the DM's. When the DM's come in, it's like icing on the cake. At least, that's how I perceived it. If you find yourself always waiting for a DM, or your faction leader, well, I can just say I don't think you're contributing your full potential to Amia, and in turn, you're not receiving the best possible immersion and enjoyment. I challenge you to make that change. If you unable, I understand there are extraneous circumstances for this, too, but fortunately, there is more than one avenue of RP to get involved in, and more than one character that you can play.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Roleplay was quite different back then. Factions were not cities, and hence did not require constant interaction with NPCs and feedback on dm controlled developments to play their characters. Over the last four years that changed dramatically. Unless that changes, the system simply demands a consistent and high activity of those DMs who oversee the city-factions. And when they do not, frustration will grow steadily - because player characters actually hang in limbo and ooc absence begins to cause considerable problems with the storylines.

Pony has a point, but I think there's another thing here to consider, too. While I always respect your insight, Mimiron/Faded, I want to be clear here: most of the people saying things thus far are people who have been around for as long as you have, and led factions similarly to yourself. You're not speaking to uneducated players who haven't done things you've done- you're speaking to Bobo_Underhill, who was a DM and has led factions and taken many steps on his own. NinjaClarinet, who helped lead factions in a major plot called The Arcanum War. Alanna and Burning, who are current DMs. And many others. Their frustrations are entirely what you're saying, and I speak from knowing specifically what many of them are. So instead of assuming differences in experience, perhaps you can speak to what it was like for you when you did those 9 out of 10 steps towards something and then garnered no response?

Or what you would like to see, if that was happening to other people?

These subjects actually don't strike a personal chord with me at all. I just decided it was best to back away before I said something rude before.

Faded summed it up fairly well in their post. That most of this, your questions specifically, comes off as extremely disingenuous to me. The tone in which others have voiced their concerns, even the way in which you ask me those questions. - It almost feels like pandering or just plain indignance from others. I've read through your post and everyone else's that's the tone I read in a lot of them.

I know that can't possibly be the case, because I admire you guys too much to believe that's true but that's how I read it but I know (and hope) that the discussion is taking place because everyone genuinely cares about what happens.

Pony - Nec'perya is an instance of a city progressing without a DM for a large degree of it.

In the past, a lot of forum RP contributed to what would happen IG, and a lot of the "news around the town." I've noticed less people devoted to this. Perhaps we could start up some plot stubs in these major cities organically on the forums, and see where it goes both on the forums and hopefully IG?

Estara - Objectively, I have so many times done 9/10 and not gotten the full satisfaction of having gotten 10/10. And that can be rather frustrating. Requests being held up withstanding, I've almost always played evil, so I have just been used to it being for very long time, so my temporary antidote would be to come up with a co-current plot idea (which is what I did with Nec'perya) to give Dusty time to hit all the things at the same time in the times he could play. In the case of the Banites, since were independently operated, we basically just came up with our own ideas and if the DM's wants to chip in, great. But we did get the raw end of a wide many things. As much as I'd love to give a solution to this, unfortunately, I think this is just something that happens, because people aren't perfect, and people quit, and people have bias even if they promise they don't. Whether it's the DM's or players. Everyone is the hero or villain of their own story and center of their roleplay, and sometimes it's extremely difficult to fit it all together and I think we just need to work together more.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

5 years across three main characters, each of which have either led or co-lead factions or citystates. I keep up with these forums diligently, which is several more hours out of every day. I care more than is likely appropriate.