AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

So!

Along with the first guidelines for DC items and some pre-balanced items, I now made a guide/explanation for summon reskins, bottled companions and generic summons.

What other guides would you like to see, if any?

I am still waiting for a guideline from the DM Team on how to handle requests that border the 'I don't find this appropriate for a player, but I want to give players a chance.' It's something that has set many requests afire with passions and conflicts and people feeling hurt and dismayed- and really, is an integral part of playing in a persistent world where everyone wants to try their hand at the unique. The DM Team has always maintained such a hazy line of what they will and will not accept on these terms, and I appreciate that they do that to allow for creativity, and that now there are a few things that are just *Not allowed*- but the problem it is creating now is that the hazy line has simply shifted to other things. Instead of it being about Celestials and Devils and Dragons, it has become unclear how strict and 'appropriate' other things are... like elven nobles, dragon-riders and even some specialized summons.

On top of delineating what is *Not allowed*- do you think the DM Team could come up with a way to handle this idea of "trust" that comes up? 'Not appropriate for players' sends a message that players are less-than, to a lot of people, and myself included, so perhaps it is the wording that needs to be looked at more thoroughly. Or, perhaps, it is only the way that these requests are approached on the player side. Is there a vetting process? People who specialize in different topics and will list their names on them, as a guideline for who to go to for research? Should that vetting be required? How much do people feel antagonized by the length that DMs are requiring in certain Requests now? Is there a way to assuage the players feelings before it gets to the point of how much work they've put in and how horrible they might feel when an answer is negative? Glim has offered himself for Shadovar, for example. Koragi is a great resource for dragons. Could there be something made, aside from Righteous's "How to be Nice," that seems a little more efficient and targets specific issues around this?

It's something I've pointed at a lot, and navigated around very carefully to allow for others to express their opinions, but to me it's much more the meat of the Requests issue than anything else ever was. And so now, I hope it will finally get addressed as the other things have come to fruition, but I have wondered for awhile whether this part is coming too late.

I will try to come up with something, but I would not expect too much. This isn't something to easily guideline without making heavy restrictions.

There are so many races and PrC you can in theory request, that there is no way we can list them all with a definite goes and goes not without making cuts and saying "this goes and everything else not" which would be bad, seeing other things may be very well working but just noone thought of it or ever requested it before.

Also, sometimes it goes, sometimes it goes not. You gave some examples, but I rather not discuss actual requests here.

Like some PrC may fit well to one chara and built, but not to another.

Not apropriate for players has nothing to do with trust though. Some creatures are just not material to use as a PC and have been made creatues for events in PnP for a reason or mostly, many reasons because they are so alien in their nature, that it allows almost no charcter development.

Nobles? Sure they are allowed, yet each request has specific aspects that need to be considered if it fits into the server, especially if it is a fully own created house, evenmore if it is from a fully own created place.

I am affraid there is no way to guarantee that just because you did a lot of work in writing, it will automatically be a success. I already offered to review requests beforehand if someone wishes, however a guarantee cannot be given there either. If one of my collegues finds something in the request I missed and they see an issue with it will be discussed.

If you wish something super special, you have to expect that. You have to expect things may be questioned. And if you request something that is on the list of "hard to get approved" you will always have the risk while you have a chance at getting it, you have an even bigger at not getting it. If it is still worth the time to write it is for everyone to consider for themself.

In general though, anything monsterous that is not on the platinum list, will almost always be hard to request.

... if you have a cool idea, feel free to hit us up for questions or guidance beforehand! I have asked theory questions on multiple occasions when I wasn't sure if what I wanted to do is viable. In addition: don't take the "players" comments to mean Not-DMs. We go playerside too and have to make requests, so it's an even playing field with no greater or lesser in terms of what's allowed.

I just think a process for it that is more clearly laid out than, "Hit me up if you want to!" would help a lot of people.

No offense but if You want unique how can that be standartized? That rules eachother out by its very Core. A unique request needs a unique review and consideration.

A guideline what Infos we need with some help we already have along with s Template even

Mercedes wrote:

... if you have a cool idea, feel free to hit us up for questions or guidance beforehand! I have asked theory questions on multiple occasions when I wasn't sure if what I wanted to do is viable. In addition: don't take the "players" comments to mean Not-DMs. We go playerside too and have to make requests, so it's an even playing field with no greater or lesser in terms of what's allowed.

To be fair, though, if a DM decides they want to play a cool, off the wall character they can just create the character as an NPC and play it without any approval process. So the analogy is imperfect. :wink:

A DM in game as in PnP uses it as a plot device not as a character. It does not need a character development and usually only is used temporarily.

I'm not offended! Perhaps I'm explaining poorly.

There is a way to streamline an imaginative process as well as a specific one. You are making ones for very specific outcomes, but the ones that people truly feel passion about- the imaginative, complex and perhaps 'inappropriate'- these are requests that need attention in this targeted manner, as well. There are ways to guarantee worded responses, such as Mercedes explaining that some DMs see themselves as players too (which is not always the case). There are ways to guarantee a certain DM looking into certain topics first, to flesh them out and work more closely, in order to help the player (which I imagine is the primary goal). Instead of making it a player's responsibility to understand a system that is- as you're even saying yourself- Unclear, make it into an agreement that players and DMs alike are held accountable.

Putting requests' responsibility wholly on a player, as has always been done, places a lot of pressure and stress on the person who is already putting their neck out there to be proverbially chopped off. It worked better for the first couple years because the DMs were not quite as strict, quite as demanding, quite as... well. Many things. So while I understand the shift towards serious and real world interactions is a good thing in many ways, it also has drawbacks- and this has been one of those major ones, at least in the way I see it. A loss of trust in these "special" requests has permeated. People's imagination feeling restricted. The loss of the greater, arching story-telling of the Team seems to tie into this sentiment. In an effort to "crack down," imagination has lost a lot of its value and implementation. I'm posting here to ask you to help the imaginative process as much as the "Generic summon" and "Pre-made feats" one.

I understand that the DMs volunteer, and so while it may seem confusing and like more work than these others ones you've done, I imagine that a way of formatting the imaginative part of the system would really help everyone- DMs included. You may not get called assholes as much, you may not feel like players hate you because you betrayed them and spoke down to them, you may feel less antagonistic in your responses because... it's all there, in a format that everyone finds agreeable and not so vague and threatening. You may find that players have a lot to say about the imaginative process and how it feels, and you may find that you experienced some of these yourself when you requested special things- or perhaps, you are a privileged player of the community who got your special summon without a problem because the Team sees you as an experienced player. You seem to be enjoying assisting in this capacity, Amarice, and I think this is one big way that you could effect some real change and equality in the community.

I hope that makes more sense- and I don't aim to offend anyone, either!

Also, Amarice, just because that's how you play NPCs doesn't mean that it's how other people play them. Many DMs may become connected to certain NPCs and flesh them out JUST as much or even MORE than PCs. - And some players WANT that.

Would it be trouble to include custom skinchanges for polymorphed forms for shifters and wizards? Is that a thing we do?

Estara wrote:

Also, Amarice, just because that's how you play NPCs doesn't mean that it's how other people play them. Many DMs may become connected to certain NPCs and flesh them out JUST as much or even MORE than PCs. - And some players WANT that.

Well, this is right however usually concerns much different NPC. Some NPC have and should have a very own personality and attachment. But those are usually the ones who can have them. For example well known NPC of a city. Their leaders, elders, guard captains, certain nobles.

However, those do not even fall under the "not a suitable player race" they are mostly human/elf/dwarf/hin/tiefling etc.

The only place I can think of who has "monsterous" deep developed NPC is Tarkuul and those are:

1. Undead which are not on the "not suitable ever".
2. Can have the actual undead stats.
3. Rarely leave tarkuul.

So some of the issues or most even Undead PCs have fall away.

Races not suitable much for a PC are more abberations and full blooded fiends and celestials, because they cannot have much of a charatcer development to begin with. And those I cannot say I have ever seen any DM play like a PC and not just as a plot device which sooner or later is ended or at least goes back to where it belongs.

Aiseth wrote:

Would it be trouble to include custom skinchanges for polymorphed forms for shifters and wizards? Is that a thing we do?

You mean just change the "looks" and have the old skin beneath? That does work with the delayed person skinchanger. Which has been fixed.

Conceptually, I am thinking just changing the looks of a certain skin on a preexisting form. Maybe it is too complicated, but here is the general idea.

For an example... a spoiler example:

Are you back, Aiseth?!

Sidenote: I may respond more later, but for now I'm content to wait to see if anyone divulges more of a response on the meat of my paragraphs.

NPCs can still have a development Arc, even if it's not for the same reasons as PCs..

We were both around for Greywatch and the other DM created Guard NPCs Amarice.. though they were NPCs they did still have arcs of story on their own merit.. but I do get what you're saying as well.

Aiseth wrote:

For an example...

Exactly what I mean by wanting to explore concepts before pursuing them 100% and being frustrated if they didn't pan out. While this isn't the forum format to discuss these things specifically, I could already tell you a thing or two about your concept that may help/relieve you. Help doesn't always mean break your unique request! Sometimes we say help and mean balance, or... ironing out certain wrinkles-- maybe giving a character hints on ways to tie their cool new concepts into existing events, cultures, or even better: other PCs!

I think Amarice is doing good work here on the side, as even I still don't know what I'm allowed to do from a PC standpoint and fidget and worry over whether or not what I want is too weird, or won't fit in somewhere.

Mercedes wrote:

Exactly what I mean by wanting to explore concepts before pursuing them 100% and being frustrated if they didn't pan out. While this isn't the forum format to discuss these things specifically, I could already tell you a thing or two about your concept that may help/relieve you. Help doesn't always mean break your unique request! Sometimes we say help and mean balance, or... ironing out certain wrinkles-- maybe giving a character hints on ways to tie their cool new concepts into existing events, cultures, or even better: other PCs! I think Amarice is doing good work here on the side, as even I still don't know what I'm allowed to do from a PC standpoint and fidget and worry over whether or not what I want is too weird, or won't fit in somewhere.

Err, I am confused if I am your intended audience with this response, because I am pretty sure I know what I'm doing lore-wise, and I'm not frustrated... But I appreciate your support(?) I mean, I think it was directed to me and not the general audience(?) Anyway,

What I want to know is if that kind of re-skinning of polymorph forms of pre-existing spells is even viable. As well as the resize-issue.

Estara wrote:

Are you back, Aiseth?!

No comment at this time.

Aiseth wrote:

What I want to know is if that kind of re-skinning of polymorph forms of pre-existing spells is even viable. As well as the resize-issue.

You mean something to make a PC's Shapechange/Polymorph/Shifter abilities give them a different appearance? There are delayed shapechange widgets, I believe. I'm not sure, but I don't think those have size changing capability.

^ My confusion as well, which is why maybe it would help to make a FAQ topic for it that Amarice has been doing for other related features.

Will make a guide for the shin changer tomorrow.

But they can be resized. It is true polymorphs you cannot resize.

Aiseth wrote:

Err, I am confused if I am your intended audience with this response, ...

General audience, rhetoric, etc.

All well and good, Mercedes! It's great how much you and Amarice care about the Requests and helping someone, and I suppose if you can't wrap your mind around how you can standardize a unique process.. then my words fall on deaf ears.

Just think about this, though! There is a way to standardize searching for houses, right? Realtors do it, craigslist does it... but that's a unique process! And yes, I know you're not realtors and you don't get paid. It's a metaphor~!

Hey I'm not saying there's no way. In fact there may even be talks about this very thing elsewhere right now. Wouldn't that be spooky?

I'll see if I can come up with something. I think we already basically do what you ask, but simply never formulated it out or wrote it down how we "go about" a request. What criteria we use to decide if a request gets approved or not. We do actually all have that, just not down on paper. But that is certainly something that can be written down.#

I guess that is what you mean? Like for example (and this isa quick example not the full out thing I/we actually do)

1. Does the request contain the necessary information?
- if no, say what is missing.

2. Does the lore in the request match with the canon lore?
-if no, does it match with other lore that can be applied.

3. If the lore is completely homebrew, does it clash with existing lore?
- if yes, point out and ask for adjustion.

4. Does the story fit the request? Meaning, does the story explain why what is requested is requested in this way.

and so on....

that what you aim for?

Mercedes, you're killing me since you went up to DM Cloud. Your humor has rocketed, and I love it. Amarice: I agree that you already do it a lot! BUT. If you have something to point to, and something that players of all kinds can read and take accountability and responsibility for, I think it would help everyone. I also think player input on it would be great!

Edited my post with an example.

This about what you are asking for or am I understanding you wrong?

No! Those are great things. Especially the one about homebrew lore. I think that gets missed a lot, even though it seems common sense to you. What else I would say in the line of questoning is things about trust and DM Team/player concerns, statements and the like...

5. Have you thought about what you would say if a DM said No?

6. Have you looked into whether anything like this has been approved or not before?

7. Is this your first character on Amia?

8. Have you looked at the statement we put out about "trust" and the relationship between our DM Team and our players?

9. Is there anything we should know about this request that pertains to other aspects of the server culture?

Etcetc.

And then things like:

**Reference guide for knowledgeable feedback on certain "unique" topics:**

Glim: Shadovar and Shadow Weave.
Yossarin: Cantomancy and Gender Roles.
Rigela: Fey.
Amarice: Chult and Dinosaurs.
AlannaMolov: Werecreatures.
NinjaClarinet: Mulhorandi lore.
Mercedes: Ghosts and creepy things.
Etcetc.

(You can even make this part a volunteer basis, but it will probably help to have it all compiled in one place. There are so many of us that have looked at requests and been like... Oh god I could've helped you fix that!)

**Reference guide of well-formatted, public requests:**

Link to an specialized item, with specific DM questioning.
Link to a specialized race, with specific DM questioning.
Link to yadayadayada.

**Reference guide to appropriate lore for unique requests:**

Fey topic.
Nobility topic.
Homebrew lore topics.
Etcetc.

Alright. I can do that.

It's nothing I can do on the fly like the others though, so it'll take a bit of time.

Edit: I hate open ends. Give me till end of May as 'latest' date to release this. (mainly because I finally need to wrap up this adventurer guild first)

Take your time.

I hope you think it's worthwhile, too! To me, it's like signing that Pre-nup marriage document and being able to point to it once shit hits the fan or something.. but maybe it will fail, too. I'm not sure. I just think it's worth trying and hope it's helpful for everyone.

Tsk... failing is not an option for me. :twisted:

Psh the Tarkuul guys and Bob got the creepy talents on lockdown.

Amarice is doing so much meta work lately... :oops:

Taking her expertise to the field so we don't have to hand it with butterfingers.

Haha! Right on.

OH! Yes. I think there are some limitations to the game mechanics that you guys run into in the requests section repeatedly. It would be nice if there was some kind of list of things that people have come up with that sound cool and are feasible, and they request it often, but... darn, NWN won't let it happen.

I'll try to remember what those were. mainly hardcoded stuff.

The mechanical limits of our widgets I am posting with the guide of those specific widgets.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

1. Does the request contain the necessary information?
- if no, say what is missing.

2. Does the lore in the request match with the canon lore?
-if no, does it match with other lore that can be applied.

3. If the lore is completely homebrew, does it clash with existing lore?
- if yes, point out and ask for adjustion.

This and all the discussion related to it is absolutely amazing sounding.

Estara wrote:

**Reference guide to appropriate lore for unique requests:**

Fey topic.
Nobility topic.
Homebrew lore topics.
Etcetc.

There should be something like this maybe with the names of sourcebooks and other canon lore listed with what edition the lore may be. Or something like that. To be honest though even players can do stuff like that on their own but it'd probably need to be DM reviewed.

Update

Added Alter Self and Skinchanger:
viewtopic.php?f=151&t=81958

Added VFX Widgets:
viewtopic.php?f=151&t=81959

Started "what to expect when I make a special chara/race/nobility/homebrew request" on the DM forum.

To be added the next days:
The PLC Widget
The Item Spawner

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Update

Added Alter Self and Skinchanger:
viewtopic.php?f=151&t=81958

Added VFX Widgets:
viewtopic.php?f=151&t=81959

Started "what to expect when I make a special chara/race/nobility/homebrew request" on the DM forum.

To be added the next days:
The PLC Widget
The Item Spawner

This is awesome. <3

Is Alter Self an efficient disguise against True Seeing?

That depends on what it is approved as. Non of the widgets defines which have what IC abilities. That is defined by the request and what it is approved as.

If a skinchanger for example is approved as a polymorph that TS pierce applies. Is it approved as a shapeshifter shape than it does not.

If I may suggest a simple ruling on this matter. Alter Self is a spell from an Assassins spell list. I think it would be fair to let the Assassins have this tool, which will not be pierced by True Seeing. It will enhance the roleplay of a greatly underrated PrC.

I somewhat agree, since it's trivial to acquire True Seeing on Amia and much much harder to get Alter Self, yet the former is more powerful by P&P and the latter is more limited than the P&P. Also it relies on OOC consent since by WYSIWG True Seeing wouldnt pierce this (though the prior rulings concerning polymorph dont seem troubled by this issue...) Still I think it would be better if Alter Self wasnt automatically pierced by True Seeing. Or that it was agreed only the actual cast spell would pierce it rather than the items.

Alter self for one costs 5 DC. True Seeing costs 20,000 gp.

It's a great idea, Dead. If they could just use a pre-made script to attach onto a widget for the class, it could work easily. If they have to script an assassin thing new, I think it would have to wait. And thanks for the update Ama!!

Well the way I see it, it's a RP thing. If someone has TS and you are an assassin with Alter Self, you are simply not forced to tell them "You see a big, bad guy."

I think I remember the rule being that True Seeing does see through Polymorph, Shapechange, Shapeshift, etc. automatically. Alter Self is a spell or spell-like ability, so I don't see why the rule would be any different.

It would be pretty cool to give Assassins a widget that allows them to take on a few different forms as a disguise, though. That would make them the only class with access to forms/disguises that aren't automatically spoiled by the many, many True Seeing items floating around.

That's what we are saying, silly.

Oh.

Then I agree with everything!

Eh.. I have to kinda disagree but I see where you're point's coming from.

Description of the Spell Per SRD:

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

.. Note that it doesn't see through mundane disguises. Sure that takes a fair bit more roleplay and investment in the relevant skills, but it's a good and cheap way to disguise yourself enough to get closer to a target.

without wanting to be mean... this thread is for posting things to add and updates to request guides. Not an improving assassins thread.

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