Wasn't Skip Williams, one of the devs who worked on 3E, infamously biased against sorcerers?

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I looked this up and realized that we're having basically the same conversation these people had 3 years ago. It's a good read even if they are talking about p&p. They had a lot of great ideas.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... h-shaftage

Except.. Most of those people are trying to claim sorcerers are underpowered. I don't think anyone here is saying that. They lack in fluff, and the fluff that is there isn't consistent with the rest of the magic fluff in the game. Most of that thread seems to want to make sorcerers the same, but better in all ways, than wizards... which are already the most overpowered class. The game falls apart when you try to balance all the other classes against wizard, and even more so considering the nature of computer games and the 15 minute spellbook refresh here (seriously, it's -way- too short... spells measured in turns shouldn't last the whole 'day', casters are basically demigods here).

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I maintain that fluff can be gotten plenty by spell choises, familiars, feats, requests and above all RP.

Noone is complaining that fighters and bland or wizards unimaginative, they face the same "problems", I think there are plenty of problems that should be fixed before adding flavor to a class that quite frankly has enough flavor if one simply themes ones char to ones rp.

that being said, there is a good arguement to casters in general lacking prc's and that I can completely get behind.
However most prc's have the spell power of +dc of spell level ability and this is not something very good in a pvp envioment, that being said, without that a prc for casters is defiantly something I can get behind.

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You've said this twice, but in the interest of informing everyone involved, I'd like to point out that this assumption has been defied by Forgotten Realms canon.

This is an arcane healing spell, and while the argument can be made that it's restricted to Chosen of Mystra (which I believe Mystra herself would abhor), it's provided in a sourcebook (Magic of Faerun, page 119) and, also by canon, it can be learned by other spellcasters (Elminster also has it in his spells known).

It's a spectacularly weak healing spell, but it converts magical energy into positive energy (thus marking what I believe is the only Transmutation healing spell, another idea I find intriguing). It's one of four methods to produce healing magics that I can think of, but the gods only have a monopoly on one of them: Conjuration. The Conjuration line of healing spells brings positive energy through your god's plane into the touched creature, and thus it makes sense for them to be restricted to actual divine casters, even though you can bottle the effect. Necromancy, Evocation, and Transmutation, however, are all viable options for arcane or divine spellcasters to achieve power over healing effects.

Necromancy is obvious. Negative energy and positive energy are like yin and yang, but most arcanists can only use that school to produce the former, even though producing the latter should be well within their capabilities. Resurrection is actually a healing spell, regeneration effect, and soul-call in one package.

Evocation, though, is shockingly underrepresented, possibly because it's only seen of as the blasting school. Its official description even states that it creates something out of nothing. You should be able to do just about anything with Evocation, up to and including pulling positive or negative energy out of nowhere. Stating that those energies must always be in total balance doesn't quite work, either, or undead wouldn't exist.

For example:

Positive Energy Burst

Spell level: sorcerer/wizard 3

Innate level: 3
School: evocation
Components: verbal, somatic
Range: medium
Area of effect: huge
Duration: instant
Save: fort 1/2
Spell resistance: yes
Additional counterspells: negative energy burst

You create a blast of positive energy that infuses all living creatures in the area of effect with new vitality. The spell heals 1d8 points of damage, +1 per caster level, to a maximum of +20. All creatures caught in the area also gain 1 point of strength per 4 caster levels. Positive energy spells have a reverse effect on undead, harming instead of healing them.

It works equally well as a Necromancy spell, which fits in well with my point. If Mystra is truly neutral about allowing everyone access to magics that already exist, she can't play favorites with her boyfriend and daughter, let alone whole priesthoods. If a god grants it, so does she. Recall that all magic comes from the same source, divine or arcane. The only real difference is how individual spellcasters have to work at unlocking it. Sorcerers and bards bend the world to their will, wizards stay up late and study, and clerics/druids/paladins pray hard enough to get magic from their gods.

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Simbul's spell (which would in theory need to be taught BY the Simbul or someone who learned it from her) is a rare example that breaks the grain, such do exist but it's not often something which is found in the realms.


There is an IC idea Tuomas has that I might look into researching but the problem is with all that's going on it's hard to get a good line of spell research RP in (not that it's a bad thing it's the nature of the beast for the path he took, mind.. ) but, that's for the specific eample of an Arcane healing spell.

Sorcs are fine here on Amia, because of one thing, and one thing only: role-play.

It has already been said in this thread, but I'll say it again using different words: sorcs can accomplish more powerful and long lasting results than wizards through role-play.

If you don't know what that means, don't feel like figuring it out for yourself, or just plain want to rely on game mechanics to make your character awesome, then be like me: play a wizard. There's no shame in that.

If you want to REALLY want to find out what true power on this server is, play a sorc, and role-play. Rinse, and repeat.

'Rare example that breaks the grain' is an interesting turn of phrase considering that's almost exactly how I would sum up a Player Character. Just because it's a rarity does not and should not mean it isn't allowed, just difficult. Even if the canon weren't there, I'd still crusade for the option to exist. You and the other wizard players are actually constantly giving me faith in fluid roleplay allowance, simply due to the depth of what custom spells are out there. Every RP allowance Amia has made to date has been for the purpose of giving us as players more options to formulate who we want to play. We wanted to play metallic dragon disciples, so the colors were expanded. We wanted to be able to demonstrate that our character can farm, so the job system was implemented. If we want to play a wizard devoted to discovering the secrets of arcane healing, I should damned well hope that player is allowed to research and devise a spell of that type.

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Okay, this is a bit tangential, but I'm just going to have to go ahead and disagree there. By and far the "long lasting" things done in Forgotten Realms are done by archwizards, circle magic, and +10 level spells, most of which were developed around the time of Netheril, Imaskar, or even earlier with High Elven wizards. So... not sure where you're going with that, but if you'd care to explain more in depth I'm all ears. Given that sorcerers didn't even exist in D&D before 3rd Edition, I'm doubly curious.



That is my opinion as well. It's a bit different in PnP. With the limited NWN selection of spells the power disparity isn't that greater. The fluff disparity is, which was my perspective more than anything.

As for "picking your spells adds fluff" I'm going to have to disagree as well. Sorcerers can change all their spells from one level to the next. Literally be a fire-based sorc one day and respec into a necromany-based whatever the next day. That's not fluff, that's a mechanic(and I poor one I'd say) just like a Wizard setting their spellbook. Choosing your spells gives you no particular flavor or theme over another sorcerer when by all game accounts there's nothing that makes one different from another, except general feats, which aren't part of the class and make characters different than one another. Moreover, with the limited NWN selection, more often than not a sorc is going to take the spells that make him more viable or fun to play, because screw it, it doesn't support or detract from his RP not to at this point.

Few players would pay 15+ DC for a widget or whatever to gives simple flavor skills/abilities to their Sorc to fill out, nor should they be expected to shoot themselves in the crotch and take things like Resist Energy, etc to shore up the difference. It's as plain as that.

But the dicotomy of spells vs RP for sorecerer did remind me of another approach that might be workable. Someone said something about "domains" for sorcerers, but I wouldn't be talking about giving them access to extra spells. Rather, you pick a domain, and then receive a modicum of flavor as your know spells reflect that. Maybe "reverse domains" explains it better. Anyway, I mean like this:

Sorcerer lv 1 takes "Fire" theme. "Fire" Theme Spells: Burning Hands, Fireball, Combust, Elemental Shield, Wall of Fire, DFB, Incendiary Cloud

Fire Theme Bonuses:
1-2 Spells: +2 Saves vs Fire
3-4 Spells: 5/- Fire
5-6 Spells: 1d6 Fire Damage shield

Sorcerer lv 1, takes "Shadow" theme. Shadow Theme Spells: Darkness, Ghostly Visage, Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Shades, Shadow Shield, Weird

Shadow Theme Bonuses:
1-2 Spells: +2 Saves vs Illusion
3-4 Spells: +4 Hide and Move Silent
5-6 Spells: Ultravision

This is just a thought again, the numbers are thrown out there. But that's what I mean when I say "reverse domain." Encourage people to build a theme with their RP through their spell selection.

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Yep, according to 3.5 unless you've requested otherwise, your sorcerer uses the same components a wizard does. And Skip Williams... ugh, he can go do not-nice things to himself and his respective orifices.

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I was talking about Amia. You aren't. My bad. I went off topic.

No problem, I imagine you're talking about Halen then? I could see him as an example, but I imagine most of what he accomplished came from who he was as much as what he was. That, and Amia being a significantly different place back then.

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Respectfully I have to disagree with you DI, as choosing spells does create fluff. I've done so with my sorcs, chosen spells that are part of her concept and leaving ones out that mechanically are superior. An enchanter sorcerer who has all enchantment spells, which is destroyed by a simple mindblank potion, while it is not mechanically most powerful, I have fluff of being an enchanter and "a damn good one". If you're not happy with the skills and feats that the class provides, your options are to multiclass or request custom feat/custom spell (Though scripting is on hold for now, it still is a possibility) not to mention job system that you can use to demonstrate your skills in something. With that logic we could say that there is nothing that gives us particular flavor or theme over another wizard, they can choose the very same things. It really is up to the players if they want to make those sacrifices over mechanical power. For example: My main gave up portal wand, feats, ability and skill points, illusion spell school and lack of familiar for fluff and things that fitted the character. While many said it was stupid to do a build that was not mechanically optimized, I love the concept it has and having to rely on others for portals. Rest I roleplayed into the character. I don't see why it matters that few players are willing to shoot themselves on the leg over mechanical power, if they are not, well then they wont have the fluff they want. You can't choose to have everything.

And while I find your theme idea interesting and entertaining, it still bestows mechanical bonuses to the class. 1d6 damage can decide whether a DC weapon is made or not. It is about balance and by adding these themes with mechanical bonuses, we would be giving a boon for sorcerer class over other classes. While, the class is already rather potent in PvP and PvE in comparison to some other classes. And of course, much depends on the player. I for example suck at it and can't think many events where I've actually won regardless of my build.

Have to say that this is now derailing from the original topic a lot, but still have to reply to you Overneath
While it is defied by Forgotten Realms Canon, if our DM's say that it is unlikely to happen or that it is near impossible, I don't think the canon will matter in this so much. And while later developed canon contradicts what multiple other books state, it does not change the fact that arcane based casters are not intended to have healing spells, otherwise their spell selection would already have multiple such choices. The PnP books don't need to concerns themselves with balance that much, like NWN and Amia has to. And as said by Grymnia, it is exception. While a player character is an exception in table top D&D, it becomes complicated with PW. If we start to have everyone being exception of exceptions, what is the norm anymore? And I never said healing magic for arcane casters is not allowed, I said it is difficult and unlikely to happen. The DM told me that so I understand the endeavor my character was about to undertake, while interesting research, it could be one that will never lead to fruition depending on the extent of the desired healing magic. As there is mechanical balance that needs to be considered by DM's, which is not that much of a problem in table top D&D as there is less of us, here we need to consider all of us if we make one allowance. While, all custom spells create allowances, those allowances are allowed due to the custom spells sticking to the sense of balance and IC efforts. Nothing is impossible, while everything is plausible, some parts are more likely to happen than others. For example: Undead characters, demons, devils, dragons, aberrations and construct characters are highly unlikely to happen, not impossible. Same with spells and DC items, some of them are very highly unlikely to happen due to balance issues, but as DM's have stated if something comes to be through HIGH risk plot and great amount of RP, everything it possible.

And the example that you provide is a very rare PrC that only few NPC's posses and that PrC we can't take as basis for the discussion, it is very hard to obtain and most likely one we won't see on PC in Amia. What comes to the arcane healing spell, it is very weak spell as you said. Considering it is 7th level spell, which only strengthens the point that arcane based casters have very hard time developing healing based spells, even more potent healing spells. Heal itself is lvl 6 spell for a cleric, critical wound is lvl 4 spell and both are stronger spells than the one you showed. It is not transmutation healing spell, the transmutation part comes from the fact that the spell you use transforms arcane energy into healing energy that you unleash, not producing healing energy in itself or tapping to source of healing magic like the case with conjuration healing spells. Instead it converts a form of energy into another form of energy, which is what the school does. Transforms. And yes, all of schools have overlapping with each others and some stuff in those schools don't even make sense. But it is established as such.


Just decided to look these up to be available for reading if someone has interest.

Player's Handbook 3.5 p. 173 on Evocation School


Player's Handbook 3.5 p. 174 on Transmutation School


Dungeon Master's Handbook II on creating spells p. 35.

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For the record that is only the case in informed rulings, if DMs make a ruling while ignorant of the cannon lore at the time then it is something the is fine to point out and in fact should be encouraged.

Conceptually all the foundational lore of how positive energy works supports the possibility of arcane healing spells, the limiting factor on that has generally always been a mechanical function of having "healing" based classes and wanting to limit healing to them to increase their usefulness, that then requires either fluff to say why that is that case, or just ignoring of the possibility of mages casting healing. Neither of which is a great option when as is the case with NWN and amia now restricting healing to the "healing classes" is less required as most of them are far less required to be focused healers now anyway.

Yes, it is up to the DM's to make the ruling and so far they have informed of each case. However, the fact is that the DM in question did not say it is not going to happen, instead said that it is highly unlikely to happen. Therefore, there is no breach of ignoring canon lore or me implying that it was decided it will not happen. I've stated it is unlikely to happen and more than likely will remain so. And my argumentation is based on having asked about possibility of creating healing based arcane spell from DM in Amia and having checked the lore that we do have available in books, from the ones that I could find. When Dungeon Masters Handbook states clearly with a line "Wizards and sorcerers should not cast healing spells, but they should have the best offensive spells. If the spell is flashy or dramatic, it should probably be a wizard/sorcerer spell." I do believe the case has been made, and many more books go further to explain that divine governs the healing magic or that arcane based casters are unlikely to ever get healing spells. While there are examples of exceptions provided, they are just that, exceptions to the general rule. For example: Just because Elminster can do something, should we allow all mages that, or because Simbul created a spell that can heal, should such be allowed to everyone. Both of the NPC character are high level characters and very powerful ones, so I do believe these exceptions should not be taken as a basis for argumentation and leave them as such.

Yes, positive energy can be manipulated to do healing magic. Yes, arcane based caster classes do have the slim potential to do so. BUT they are exceptions at the digression of DM's deciding will such exceptions be provided, if they allow one, why can't other mages learn the spell as well. And the reasoning, which was provided for me, was that healing magic is in generally under the possibility of divine magic and deities. Why is it so? I did not ask, there was no point starting to argue how it is established so. Maybe someone else would be interested to know the basis of that, but I am not that into the small details. At the same time we could start asking questions why can't our mages cast conjuration teleportation spells such as dimension door, to leap small distances. DM's have decided it is better not to provide the arcane casting classes that potential while based on canon lore they do have that. Sure we can do that in events, but so can we cast Wish spell in events to resurrect someone or to heal someone. But still it is not a healing spell per say. What that DM did to me was that he/she saved me a lot of time from efforts that more likely would not have led to anything. While interesting roleplay, I rather focus on more fruitful endeavors elsewhere.

Personally I feel that instead of a wizard going for conjuration healing sub-school healing spell, they would more likely create a necromancy school spell that saps the lifeforce of enemies in an area that then regenerates allies. Like Vampiric Touch. It is more in line with DM Handbook ruling as well, it is offensive spell that does not actually base on healing, but base on draining life force of your enemies while invigorating your own. While it is an OOC ruling that does not seem to have any lore-based explanation other than: "Healing: Certain divine conjurations heal creatures or even bring them back to life. These include cure spells." such is the game with D&D. There are OOC restrictions and IC restrictions. Some have explanations, some don't. While everyone are welcome to study them, they should be aware that some things are very very unlikely to happen and continue with that reservation. And we do have cases were the arcanist went against the odds and succeeded. They took high risks and achieved high rewards.

EDIT: By the way, I do like your counter arguments and is the reason why I am active on this topic. The area interests me and while I possibly share your desires for arcane based healing spells. But I disagree with the fact that should arcane based casters have healing spells, despite the potential being there with positive energy. Maybe the reason why they don't is the fact that arcane based casters don't know how to control/manage/limit the energy so that it just heals instead explodes the target. We have divine casters that can do that, no class should have all the potential of other classes, in my opinion. While healing arcane based spells might be from our reach, our arcane casters can invest in heal skill and be extremely potent healers via mundane means.

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thats the same arguement that was used to justify child epic chars "because karsus was that powerfull" in either case, this whole debate about healing spells is moot, it requires a dc request anyway, so make a request, its why its there for you.

If this vauge example of extremely powerfull mages, way more powerfull than any char on this server (as it has been said many times, by a dm, that a level 30 here is not equal to a level 30 on the mainland because it would be silly), and has been directly chosen by mystra to be a messenger of her and magic as a whole, should be a arguement for diversification of sorc's, then I want a spellfire feat, it breaks with the whole idea of the raw nature of sorcs, both selune and elminster are extreme scholars, with access to the voice of magic itself.
The chosen of mystra is in no way representative of wizard and sorcs as a whole, selune is probably the most powerfull being in existance other than larloch, and all of them have some form of communication with gods directly.

What im saying is, unless you think your char represent the absolute paragon of mages, then you shouldnt compare abilities and spells of the chosen with yourself and even if you did, you could still make a request, this by no means limits your sorc, you just have to rp your flavor, dc what you need to compliment that flavor, just like everyone else.

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Magiros, you come off as somewhat of a defeatist. Comments such as



and



make me think that you've given up on requesting new arcane abilities and just want the conversation done with. I find the why behind an answer more important than the answer itself in this case. I'm a grown-up, and I can handle being told 'no'. Sometimes it can feel less like a 'no' and more like a 'no, because I say so', however, and that's where my trigger lies.

That's basically it. I'm not very hung up on this particular issue, it just stands as a platform that I think mirrors some other basic concerns about DC requesting. If we can't have this, can we have this? Why/why not? Here's why I think my wizard should be able to heal people with cone of cold, why do you think he shouldn't? Etc. I simply sleep easier, metaphorically speaking, if the why behind a denial can stand up to counter-arguments and has a reason behind it. It doesn't need to be complex, exactly, just present.


Kranium, we're not arguing the merits of the ability itself, we're discussing whether or not it's even rules-legal to ask to begin the process. You can't DC request something unless you know whether you can...well...DC request it.

Also, I want to briefly note that there seems to be the bug going around where people think the Chosen of Mystra operate outside the bounds of the rules they're enforcing, like they're the cast of Lethal Weapon. If Mystra were actually granting anomalous magical abilities to a select few of her favorites, Ao would come down on her faster than Kelemvor on the false. Her entire job is to keep magic present and neutral. Mind you, if I'm very wrong about this, someone should tell me now, because this impression sums up my entire view on one of our pantheon's heaviest hitters.

Further, because you DID ask...

Here's the spellfire feat, and here's the prestige class that comes with it. If anything's an exception, this is, but my understanding so far is that the DMs tend to be generally very fair about reviewing and approving pen-and-paper class alternatives and prestige classes, at least as far as they can be emulated by the game's engine.

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While I've not given up on requesting new arcane abilities, which my recent requests show. I rather have classes with limits, whether those limits are IC or OOC don't really matter to me. My argumentation is based of what I've read of classes and build my understanding. They are not healer based classes by any intentions. Healing is not their area of operations. To be blunt here and without any offense, stating healing through magic should be possible for arcane based classes is, to me, opposite what the classes are intended to represent. Its like saying I want to make a PM with positive energy focus. The why, to me, is the fact that to reconstruct persons back to form 'M' is such a difficult work which mortal mind is challenged to comprehend. Imagine M being forms normal form, as it is harmed it becomes N. To retrack the building blocks of what makes a form that specific form is difficult, the divines have God, or something higher than them, providing the magic and energy the purpose they are to fill. Arcane casters would need to understand building blocks of bodies or have insightful approach to correcting these while wielding the magic. That is how I view it, it simply is too complex task for a mortal in general. While some weak healing magics have been created they are just that, weak imitations of the Power of healing that divine magic has. I'm not going to respond from now on, as I feel we are beating a dead horse on topic that has derailed. No offense to you, but the why in a game world, does not interest me. If it was part of Real life matters, I would be interested to understand the why. Here we have books with rules that define most things involved.

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Fair enough. I appreciate the time you took to explain your stance.

In regard to the main focus of the topic itself, I feel that because sorcerers are the easier of the pure-arcane-spellcaster bros. to play, they're going to acquire more players who are interested in playing an arcane spellcaster as opposed to playing a unique sorcerer. They're the fighters of the pure caster game. Sure, you could choose to be a monastic monk, a hunter ranger, a bloodthirsty barbarian, but they all have RP limitations or niches that you need to take into account. With fighters and sorcerers, you can basically come up with whatever you damned well please. In this sense, the sorcerer doesn't need more enforced fluff because they are the fluff, and it's up to the individual player to decide what that fluff is for themselves, or whether they even want to use it. Enforcing it feels to me like attempting to shove 'the right way to RP' down their throats, when maybe they just want to chuck fireballs at people without caring whether their magical ancestor was an efreet or a faerie dragon or Bob Ross.

In short, if we're going to suggest adding benefits to a class, it should be a benefit every member of the class shares. It's difficult to do that with the sorcerer, and this thread proves it.

Incidentally, would now be a good time to bring back the idea of adding caster levels to Dragon Disciple?

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I kind of see what you're saying, but that comparison is not equivalent by the fact that Fighter gets a free fighter-flavored feat every other level to define that fluff for themselves. As a fighter, the time that you could be using to learn to be monastic, or rage, or be a ranger, you're learning other abilities and things related to your field. That's exactly what is absent from Sorcerer in a sense. Okay, so a sorcerer doesn't have to learn spells or memorize them, doesn't spend years training in a convent and learning dogma, and doesn't go through years of apprenticeship in which they learn formalized magic. So what are they spending that time doing, then? Nothing, apparently, by NWN and 3rd edition. But in my mind and the mind of the folks who made Pathfinder, they're spending that "time" either focusing on their heritage or learning tricks that come with the territory of being a natural caster.



It would be no more enforcing it than any other flavor feat. Does Still Mind mean every Monk has achieved a peaceful and calm mind? My Hoarite Monks says otherwise. It really depends on how we went about it just what we would be enforcing. If we forced every Sorc to define for themselves an explicit bloodline/heritage, then I would say yes, that would be forcing it on some people. Which is why I suggested a modular system with no further explanation than what the actual feats do. If someone wanted to make good on their red dragon RP, they can. If someone really has no idea what they want or are staunchly opposed to having any sort of bloodline, they could take spell tricks, weapon focus sickle/dagger/staff/etc, or Arcane Defenses and RP it purely as "my sorcerer is just more adapted to these things through his RP." The lore of heritage and bloodlines is there whether it's "enforced" or not, but if a system is implemented smartly, it won't be forcing it upon anyone any more than it is forced now. It may encourage people to understand and formulate one, however.

As far as flavors having to be a shared benefit, I wouldn't find that necessary. That, if anything, forces more upon people than having them be able to pick and choose their own little boons. Like the Force of Personality feat thing; while we could reason that that's something that all sorcerers could/would have, adding it to all of them basically negates people who were preferred their sorcerers being weak-willed twits, even if it makes little RP sense. At least with something interchangeable you could take the most mechanically negligible ones of the bunch(Arcane Defense: Divination or Abjuration, for example) and continue on no different than how you had before, if that was your prerogative.



Probably not, until IA opens up again.

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