Hey again peeps, got quite a long post to make here so do be patient and maybe put your feet up before you start.....

Now then, like a lot of Amians still around to this day i've been around for several years or so and as you can imagine i've seen and been in my share of PvP encounters.

Most of them have been handled well RP wise and pretty good OOCly too eg No one being all upset and angry for like an hour at each other after the fight over something trivial or simply a misunderstanding. But as the years have rolled merely on PvP from my perspective has become so rare that even hearing of someone being in a PvP fight is almost cause for Town criers to announce it in the streets.

A couple years ago when the Good and Evil factions alike ran amock across amia using it as a battleground i believe it was truly a time of excitement and produced a great many RP scenarios and plot development that ended up changing the face of the isle itself sometimes, a time when you actually had to look over your shoulder now and then to see if you were being stalked....to see if a road was being blockaded ahead by bandits and such...or even stumbling into a battle between a dozen players all of a sudden...it was quite thrilling and nicely broke up those many hours of dull quiet grinding/ chatting all the time...not to say that's a terrible thing at all but variety is important to keep things interesting.

Granted PvP rules have changed somewhat since this hectic time but not so much that it cannot be done anymore by any means, be it a One v One duel...two small groups or even some brave or desperate soul who fights 1v3 or more? whatever the number / class / Rp ect...it just doesn't seem to happen more than once a week from what i see and while im not certain as to why it wouldn't be more often it wouldn't surprise me to learn it has become this way due to the lack of those few key players who were once with us and have now left for one reason or another that happened to be quite the influential types when it came to getting people to rally together and go forth into a risky fight where you couldn't so easily predict the outcome due to it being a Player and not a NPC who simply never changes their way of combat.

Could be people in general just don't like PvP as much as me, could be that their worried of being black listed by another player in any future RP if the PvP fight goes bad and they both get OOC angry at one another, perhaps they just don't like the risk of losing a fight or even think that the char their playing is simply the sort who doesn't look for a fight...though i do find it funny when they find the notion to clobber a goblin or two and then say something like "Oh but it's ok to kill these things, they are ugly or mean" You get what i mean....

Not here to mock anyone or say if you don't PvP your a coward...nothing of the sort, i love my quite time of chatting/emoting/dungeon crawling and all the other non PvP stuff we do on amia. Just looking for opinions and perhaps get some answers as to why it's always so quite on the PvP front these days.

Thanks for taking half your day and or night to read all of this but i wanted to make sure i was fairly specific so not to make peeps think i was just judging everyone on a general glance of observation.

Regards Nide

The Branded Phoenix faction used to host semi-open PvP war games at the height of the Arcanum plot just to keep everyone's mechanical skill fresh, and the RP was great too. Base defense, hostage rescue, ambush and escort, capture the flag, ect. Is there any IC/OOC interest to us doing those again?

heck ya ninja

Sadly, when this happens and the 1 vs 3 or more wins, then people whine and want a whole class overhauled because they lost.

Negativity aside, conflict rp is being looked at and I think the pvp rules are going through another overhaul (or minor tweek, not sure). I'm all for "if your character would do it, do it, just understand what the consequences of your actions are". Stir the pot. Dont be an jerk about it, but the pot needs stirring every now and then.

It might not be wars in the streets but I do see a fair amount of PVP topside. It may not be like the good old days or whqthaveyou.... but just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there! Like me. I'm always there. Watching.

Just yesterday there was a small encounter involving player versus player in northern Cordor. The scene played out pretty quick though, before the characters involved were pulled into downtown Cordor to enjoy due process. Did generate a lot of rp.

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Characters:
Elder Torsten Eadgarsson
"He’d only shown the best of intentions. Firm but not unreasonable. Eager to protect what was his but not eager to overextend his reach, to push himself on to others."

Well i for one am on a +8 GMT timezone here in australia but im up till 2 am quite often and back on usually 8-11 am the next day so granted im missing the peak US Timezone i still rarely see any.

I do miss me some PvP sometimes. Remember though, you're comparing the server as it is now to a time when it was almost always completely full. Like, people fighting for spots to get to A, and B was even pretty full most of the time. You're going to see a lot more PvP between 100 PC's than you will between 40.

That being said, if there's something you're not satisfied with on the server, change it! Host a PvP tournament, or waylay some innocent adventurers. Heck, make a duelist and go around challenging people for the sheer reputation boost. Large changes do take quite a bit of effort, but something like this is largely up to the players themselves. I'm not saying you can really ever get things back to the way they were, because we simply don't have that large of a playerbase now. But it can be improved.

Back in the day when I led the War Knights, we had war games too. But the best thing we ever did as far as intra-faction PvP was our own version of a Tempuran Fight Club. We'd just all scatter and go about our normal activities, each with a particular item or some kind of token. When one of us would spot another of us, we'd just drop what we were doing and go at it. Whoever had the most tokens at the end of the month got a prize. Granted, we only did this once, because it made it really hard for us to get anything done. But! It was fun, and it kept our PvP skills sharp.

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Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

Yea sadly since game spy went down and killed the easy to find server list it's been about a third or so down on pop but while waylaying peeps or something similar might stir a bit of decent PvP while within Rp means....the fact a player can simply say oocly aloud or in tells that they don't want to PvP, which while perfectly fine and not bad thing to do..im concerned if you were to say charge a toll on a bridge for peeps to cross..say something pitiful like 50 gp and some guy refuses to pay and also declines PvP and insists you let him pass...what is the guy charging the toll going to do? Just attack him or let him pass? the guy could go around and avoid the toll/PvP but might simply think if he turns down PvP due to server rules that he can ignore the toll and stroll on by

This is one of the grey scenarios i think is why a lot of peeps may want to avoid PvP so they don't get all mucked up trying to resolve things on the spot and still not break RP

A bit harsh statement. There is a certain number from both categories, but the number is negligible.

PvP is not here on daily basis, but I am glad to say that 99% of what I saw lately was done "by the book" and with solid RP outcome.

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Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)

The truth is often harsh. Reputations and opinions like this are earned. That's not to say that it's current status quo, but pvp on the server upto very recently has been aptly described by Vital Touch.

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I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.

By my understanding of the PvP rules, you have to give that player an IC out, by either allowing them to pay the toll or allowing them to take a different route. If he proceeds to cross the bridge after explicit IC warnings, I'd say that's a hostile action and can be treated as such. Unless I'm mistaken, that's what I would do. You can talk OOCly about not wanting PvP all you want, but if your IC actions warrant it after being given options to avoid it, tough cookies.

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You can 'decline' PvP itself, but you can't decline the consequences. So you'd either pay the toll (IC out to avoiding PvP) or suffer your fate.

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Signature by Maryn! <3 I am also seen as DM Snuffles.

I thought I remember DMs stating you cant block people if there is no other way around((meaning by walking no matter how long/boats/portals...any thing)), or if its a dungeon. after some cases where both evil and goodly folk were trying to pigeon hole people into locations unable to leave, and cases where people blocked off fire giants and tried to set up a 20k+ a person toll.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

http://i.imgur.com/GPhF5f0.gifv
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On a possibly more constructive note; the server is inevitably dying, so PvP will naturally fade with it. There's usually far too much drama involved with PvP, so factions/individuals are just better off avoiding it altogether.

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The Grizzly is Back.

d20 was never ment for pvp, there is no optimising or balancing, until classes are forced to level a special way, it will allways be a very annoying thing for us that have rp classes and dont optimise like hell to get the maximum out of everything and I find it kind of funny that the people that actively seek pvp, also seem to be maximised for pvp oocly..pvp stopped being about rp because it favors powerbuilds, and forces others to make powerbuilds if they want to compete. I despise pvp with all my soul, I do it when I have too icly, but I find it so remote from pnp rp that I will never favor it in any way.

and the server isnt dying in barak runedar atleast, we fight on and we are having a blast.

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

PvP conflict is dead, and what is left is what you see.

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bad man

For some statistics, there were a total of 74 PKs in March 2015, and 25 PKs from 16 February 2015 to the end of February 2015, there are plenty more (such as the drow raid in Endir's Point) that come to mind, so I know there are significantly more than 25 PKs in February, but I can't tell since the tracker doesn't go that far for the latest kills. (Well, I could find out if I painstakingly looked at the database, but I was doing just a quick check.)

If we take March's example, since that's a complete data set, that is about a total of 2.387 PKs/day on Amia. Would I say that there is no PvP on Amia anymore? Definitely not.

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I play:

Well...I remember that. I faced similar issue in Kohl when the perfect mythal quest was in the Manor. My paladin simply did not allow a blackguard or a palemaster or anyone else who were banned, pass the city and I received a lot of OOC bashing because I denied their access to the manor quest.
Yet the DM side (Tormak and someone else) ruled in my favor since RP is more important than grinding or doing a quest.

Unfortunately, that's slowly been my experience over recent years as well. Maybe it's how my characters evolved, but PvP used to feel a lot more organic to me. Sure, every now and then the Banites would set up a toll in the Crags or Amia Frontier, but you knew about that and would prepare accordingly. Other than that, a series of insults would escalate to blows, or a series of encounters would eventually lead to it. And you fought as you were, unless it was like a group throw-down and both sides knew it was coming. But in later years, where I'm walking along and randomly come across people fully buffed, with contingency trap nests and people waiting in the wing for when my PC doesn't cow to the demand of "Pay us 50GP, you insignificant, weakling bitch!" I'm just like.... really? What RP is gained out of this? Is looking like a big-dick G who is really powerful IC all you want out of the interaction? Because there are better ways I'd think, but whatever.

That said, PvP can be enjoyable, at least when it means something. It simply feels like that meaning has been lost and 75% of the time when I enter PvP now, I'm honestly thinking to myself "Oh, this player wants to fight for some reason," not that it is indeed the characters who have an intrinsic need to fight. Maybe I'm cynical. But then again, I honestly can't recall a recent PvP encounter where the person or persons who initiated it didn't show up fully buffed and itching to hit the hostile button. 9/10 times, no one's hitting the hostile button unless they know they can win or are at least at their best and that's lame.

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Coming from a server in which PvP was allowed as long as roleplay was involved I'll admit one of the things that will take getting used to will be the more heavier restrictions on it. However, that being said I think PvP can be used as a driver for story if handled right, the problem is that there is a lot of room for mess up.

The problem isnt as much that its bound to end up giving huge arguements, the nature of the pvp scene leaves nothing but powerbuilds to be used, if you dont, you will be humiliated to the point where you have to give up a char, you cant make a rp char of bane for example, if pvp is a focus of your church or enemies, if you lose, you are out of the favor of bane, there is no room for failure in some churches. that means you have to make powerbuilds, Pvp ruins rp in faerun, because d20 was never ment for pvp.

If pvp is part of regular rp, powerbuilds is by nature forced down on people if they want to be part of that rp, this is why we see alot of paladin/rouges and other builds with...questionable rp reasoning.

I would prefer it to be one sided, we shun enemies in barak runedar, it has left our rp to deal with mainly npc threats and it has made the rp flurish in barak runeder, this relies on our dm ((all praise to crazy cat lady)) amarice, but without the need for pvp master builds, we can focus on our chars without having to worry about getting one level of bard to do a huge skill dump, cause we dont get into much pvp.

Pen and Paper, relies on two things, cooperation between players and a guiding dm, we have done that in barak runedar, and it has made the place a better place, pvp mongeres would dampen our moods considerably... Cause frankly, ive never seen "good" rp based on pvp. We have been offered player conflict, but frankly, speaking from my own point of view, I prefer amarice getting on our backs, so it
1) dosnt get out of hand.
2) considers all involved and ic reprecations
3) avoids ooc conflict

ive never seen pvp being a tool that drived rp, it has allways seemed a burden that led to alot of annoyed/angry players

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

That is very disappointing to hear. I have had an equal amount of good experiences and bad experiences with PvP. I am a heavy evil player and I am use to being tossed around by hordes of good players and I try my best to take it in stride. I can understand DM oversight when pvp is involved, which is great, but the way I just interrupted what you said is you basically shun most hostile PC or PC faction conflicts. That alone is the single most disheartening thing I have read in a while, not because I am PvP freak but I absolutely love to do one thing on this server and that is to drive conflict and mix things up between player factions/characters.

From my point of view as an almost exclusive evil player, we don't have DM to give us most of our content, we have to engage with the other side of the player base in one way or another. I cannot expect to be evil, and have fun, if you actively do not wish to engage with my characters on an OOC level.

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Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661

I can certainly understand your point, and I didnt mean I Shun pvp icly only that I dont encourage it. Because I have only had very very few god experiences with it and I will not be
destroyed over and over by powerbuilds, Thus I dont encourage player conflict oocly, icly is another matter.

I dont have a pvp build, thus I dont want pvp, for I would not be able to live up to what my char embodies without changing him to a pvp powerbuild.
I dont object to it icly, I do what my char must icly, but will I ever start pushing for my chars factions to fight other factions, hell no, it will be murder on the feeling of accomplishing something if all we have to do is deal with defeats from pvp powerbuilds over and over and over again.

I know all arnt powerbuilds that do pvp, but those that are, ruin in for the rest of us, if meaningfull pvp should happen, then it must be predicated on some form of balance, and it is not balanced when 10 pvp builds go up against 10 rp builds like most in barak runedar, we just dont stand a chance, because most of us just took what felt right at the time or had some vauge mostly pve sense of what to do.

I used to play evil too, but I gave up, because the factions I was in died out, or I was booted for nothing having made a good enough pvp build, Like what happened to me in the banites..my rp build blackguard of bane got his arse handed to him by a dwarf powerbuild 5 levels higher than him, and it was over, he was stripped of all rank cast out and left to rot on his own and no you cant walk away when you are a banite, cowards are not exactly looked upon with favor.
All because I didnt make a powerbuild...pvp is only fun if you are winning, and me playing rp builds, dont win, I would not find fun in pvp from defeat after defeat after defeat, but I am running in circles.

To recap

I dont like pvp, because it fosters the idea that to be part of rp and to be a force of the world you must be a powerbuild or you will never amount to anything.
I have seen no evidence that pvp does anything but that.
Thus I will never foster pvp relations (oocly) with the factions I am in, my char balorin is very agressive against tarkuul, but I dont seek out a fight because:

1) He dosnt even remotely live close.
2) He dosnt stand a chance against mages (and he knows this, though he would never admit it)
3) He is disillusioned with amia as a whole, and in the back of his mind he knows it wont help even if he went hunting 24/7

and this is indeed the way I think, go through alot of ic reasoning, then and only after ic reasoning I consider ooc reasoning:

1) I dont stand a chance against powebuilds
2) I dont want to cater to people seeking a fight, I know deeep down it wont cater rp, cause I havnt seen rp from such in a loooong time.
3) I am tired of having to fight for the sake of fighting, its why I love barak runedar, we have purpose to the struggle, fighting an endless stream of people that cant die permanently is just...pointless.
5) and even if they could die permently, then I would run off screaming because then balorin would die..see ooc point 1), yes this makes me a coward, but you try facing up against a ak47 with a waterpistol.

(( sorry for all the editing

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

But by my definition anything "dwarf" is a powerbuild

It all depends on your definition of a powerbuild. There's probably folks out there that can hit "recommended" on their character from level 1 to 30 and still be a force in pvp. It's more about knowing what your class can and cant do than how it's built. Heck knowing what Balorin's build is, he can be backed up by a caster or two and buffed into an instrument of destruction.

It's been said many times in the build forum that any build can pve. I'd like to add another line to that. Any build can pvp. In faction pvp especially when you've got an army of dwarves you can face anything with the right tactics and teamwork. We do stand a chance in Barak Runedar because we've got folks that are comfortable working together, and can get any job done in my opinion. You practice a little in team pvp and you'd be amazed at what a build like yours can do.

PvP's dead? Good riddance.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

I like your sentiment, but its just not right you said balorin needed mages to be good, he dosnt even know Any mages, and I strongly dissagrea that skill dumping and min maxing dosnt make a difference cause it does, for they never seem to attack when 7 dwarves Are about and balorin defiantly dosnt stand a chance on his own, nor does Any of My rp builds except My druid cause druids Are OP

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

I should clarify my point; I'm starting to sound like an old man I feel when I keep saying "back in my day..."

There can be good waylaying RP that leads to PnP, I simply haven't been involved in any in a good while. What I mean is, it's almost always evident that the intent of the waylaying is to PvP. A few sentences of RP, and then someone gets hostiled. I don't walk away from PvP OoCly, or at least I try not to because it is indeed ignoring IC happenings. But I really think people are forgetting that PvP is but a single option on the grand list of hostile interactions to consider. Wrestle someone to the ground. Get in their face. Bully them. Unless your character is foaming at the mouth and writing messages with their own excrement, I'm not convinced they're willing to kill someone over XXX GP or whatever. Not when you've obviously got them decked out in farmed gear and lit up like a Christmas tree. It's either you looking to pick a fight or your character. And the latter is fine, just put some actual work into your gloating and obvious superiority instead of letting the numbers on the page speak for you. If all you're looking for is a way to spar against other builds, there are plenty of IC ways to go about that, but actively searching for it under the guise of RP doesn't really do anything for anyone. Unless you're one of those MLG hyperventilaters that talk shit in CoD chat, in which case, you've got no sympathy from me, that isn't what any RPG is about.

What I'm saying kids is if you remember not to neglect the foreplay, there are plenty of people who don't mind being screwed. Anything for a good story.

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2-3 of any average PC will be able to beat a single power-built PC 99% of the time. PvP sucks because the consequences are mostly non-existent, except the few times they're too extreme.

I avoid it, if possible. But don't shirk away from it if necessary. Because, well... fuck it. Shit happens. Come at me, bro.

I said I avoided it oocly, not icly, my chars dont run because of ooc reasons hell balorin would never run period and I stand by my statement on the nature of the pvp of the past it was allways a case of min maxing to an extreme

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

I would usually rather scrape my balls with a sheet-rock saw than PvP on this kind of server. Some people, though, they just keep pokin' the bear...

My first character on Amia was my Kellie. As such, I was involved in a lot of pvp from day 1 on this server and ...it's never changed really. It's pretty much the same as it's always been. The only things that's really changed is the lack of heal potion spamming to the same degree as before.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

I have a couple suggestions
1) Have a list of players who are comfortable with PvP which everyone can see so folks with in the PvP crowd can have a better idea of who to engage with
2) Set up specific factions which are PvP oriented; like some DMs warning that permadeath is a consequence to their plots apply the same thing to PvP. If you join the Cordor guards for instance you should expect to be PvPable and the same goes with joining an evil faction of some sort. That way players who want to pursue agendas or plots that involve PvP they can do so with clear expectations that it is a risk.

Finally, I have played on and off a server called Escape from the Underdark which is roleplay oriented but has a lot of PvP often with permenant consequences, think Game of Thrones NWN. Despite this, the community as a whole handles this with good sportmanship and I have rarely seen people ragequit unlike other servers where this is prevelent. My point isn't to put down Amia or other servers rather to show that a healthy PvP culture can be fostered into a server provided both the community and DMs invest in it.

This was tried a while back, with players having a sorta mutual aggression pact saying they could be pvp'd at any time. It didnt go so well, and wasnt received very well.



In my opinion, most churches and deities are already pvp oriented. The evil ones are obvious, but kelemvor, salandra to an extent against undead, most of the nature deities against undead, are ones that come to mind that while arent blatantly pvp, resort to it to further their god's goals.

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Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

I have to say, Vital, that a lot of your posts have a tendency to make me uncomfortable, and really detract a lot from me trying to discuss the topic in any constructive manner. I place builds to character concepts, rather than the other way around, but I make no bones about trying to get the most out of the character mechanically when I decide on a match. I've been playing this game since it came out, and I find the mathematics and challenge of building powerful character entertaining in of itself. I do not, however, think this detracts from the quality of the RP I offer the server.

I PvP extremely rarely, I would call one incident every 6 months to be a very generous estimate. I also run dungeons very infrequently, and don't even bother going after boss loot. 95% of my time is spent in social RP settings, or harassing DMs on plot-related things. I would hazard a guess that there are quite a few players like me that have unexpected "powerbuilds".

It's really important, I think, to avoid using sweeping generalizations and broad strokes when discussing play styles, because currently, I'm rather inclined to feel that if I were to encounter you IG, I'd probably avoid the interaction because of the sheer hostility you've expressed on the forums towards people that are knowledgeable about the game, and still enjoy playing it for what it is, in -addition- to the joys of RP. And I suspect, that if I am inclined to say something, that there must be at least a few people that share similar sentiments, and I don't think that's wholesome for the community.

I love EfU, it's the other server I play on... But I don't think what works there will work here. The player base and server culture are entirely different, almost opposites.

PvP here is virtually pointless. Why would you bother trying to defeat someone that cannot truly even be touched, with a character that cannot be touched themself? Permanent character consequences are off the table; Amia is a casual server that some people have been playing the same characters on for years (making them very attached to them, a good portion have vowed to quit if anything should happen to them). With no consequence, most PvP is really just griefing, or annoyance RP at best (the asinine attacks that happen from time to time near Bendir come to mind). The only 'good' PvP interaction I've ever seen here is in the arena events, where the DMs watch and hand out OOC raises anyways.

This really is unfortunate as it really makes Amia a PvE roleplay server, and the environment is not challenging enough to warrant that. The goals, such as they are (and in this order), seem to be to grind to max level as quickly as possible, then maybe for your final gear set... then type out in painstaking detail your doctorate in underwater basket weaving while waiting for the DMs to do something? Besides putting (IMO) undue expectations on the DMs, it seems like that would do nothing but divide an already fairly small server population into their respective faction areas, and shut loner characters out entirely.

Sorry if this sounds overly critical, or only tangentially related to PvP (or the prevalence of it), but consequence and PvP are two bits of the same issue IMO. I do like Amia for what it is, and enjoy adventure PvE roleplay... when I can find it. Most are too concerned with the max level grind to bother. I enjoy PvP too, though I'm terrible, when it isn't just someone throwing their weight (in higher level or better gear) around for the hell of it. I lose interest in a character towards max level (as my archive of twenty-something level characters can attest), as the repetitive boss grind hoping for that 5% loot roll to pay off is frustrating at the very least and the time/reward ratio is way off for me. The DM stories, from what I've seen, are good and interesting, but I find them very hard to break into, so to speak, partially due to the lack of end game power and the dominance of the characters that have established themselves over the years. With no practical consequences available, these characters seem to have 'made it' to an untouchable level, perhaps simply by sticking around an aging game after the PCs that could be touched succumbed to their chosen consequences. From my perspective things seem a lot more static than the community seems to say they want, even with a rather active developer team updating the module (seriously, monthly or more module updates is pretty awesome).

I hesitated to post this, being full of unpopular opinions and offering no solutions on a dead horse topic... But I also know some of those unpopular opinions are shared by some, and a few years off and on here haven't changed my perceptions at all. Maybe I'm just overly optimistic, but I think there has to be an option between powerbuilds rofl-stomping everyone, and basket weaving universities. As it is, I don't think anything would be different if PvP were turned entirely off.

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That's more than a little extreme, IMO. Not to diminish whatever your experiences may be, but I've had meaningful PvP; it's not a unicorn. It is simply extremely dependent on the parties involved. As I have pointed out, as a lot of the people who initiate PvP in recent years seem to be focused almost myopically on the PvP, that becomes harder and harder to come by, but it isn't impossible. There are a few PCs that, should it ever come to it, I would be more than willing to PvP and even cook up some lasting results, because I know said PvP will build to either of our stories. Getting curb-stomped because my character gave a sideways glance to a blackguard, the whole interaction lasting only 5 minutes before I am killed, gives me NO incentive to roleplay consequences for that instance. And I think it is unfair to pose the playerbase as if they are afraid of consequences when they are offered them at the end of that particular stick. It's cool for the RP of Warmonger Edwardo to kill 20 people unprovoked and go riding off, but how fun is it for the 20 people who just have to sit there for however many hours to reinforce the idea that "death means something" even though they get nothing from it? I'm honestly not here to play Game of Thrones, but nor am I here to play Power Rangers, Dragonball Z, or Carebears.

Perhaps a suggestion is this: while we do not enforce any hard consequences on PvP right now, an actual guide to consequences might encourage people to take them. Right now, since you can pop up 5 minutes after being killed with no consequence, a lot of players assume that there can never be any. In truth, the onus is largely on the players involved. If I feel that the overall story is made better by my PC going out of commission for a day, a week, a month after you kill him, then surely I'll do it. Alternately, I expect the same. But more importantly, I don't expect anyone to put my joy above their own. If I kill you in an epic 2-hour duel and you really want to play again after reset, cool, just try to avoid my character as not to ruin the illusion for either of us. Go home, lick your wounds, plot and scheme revenge. I will by the same token; an epic story deserves epic fallout, but I'm not going to infidelity stop playing my decade-long character so you can feel good killing him in 2 sentences and 3 hits, and then never interact again except only to egg him on to fight once more.

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Powerbuild is very subjective. I think any pure class caster is a powerbuild, but there's many that will tell you that 28/x/x/is better than a pure caster. You, from past experience, believe that any build with shifter levels is a powerbuild and I can say that's completely wrong. One person's powerbuild is another's rp build.



How is a build ooc? The collection of classes a character has or doesnt have directly influences who they are. Myself and others in the build thread routinely ask what the concept of the character is before build advice is given. Yes there's cookie cutter builds for almost any concept. Those are usually what's given as the player can take the build advice or not. But to say that there's no rp considerations at all in a build is an insult to those who are trying to give advice.



No, powerbuilding is just that, building a powerful build. On my shifter, I avoid casters like the plague because they have so many counters to a shifter. That's not powerbuilding, that's common sense brought about through *gasp* Role Play! Because of what my character has seen and faced in the past, he's learned how to either avoid it all together (the prefered method) or if it cant be avoided, then he has a few easily countered methods of taking a caster down quickly. If it doesnt happen quickly, then it's not gonna happen at all.



You cant have it both ways. Either people are filty powerbuilders or they take a feat that their character who is naturally extremely dexterious would take, IE epic dodge. If it required no special actions, then why do you have to build towards epic dodge? What do you have against the capstone abilities of certain classes? And if you'd like an epic dodging shifter build, I have one



I believe you're falling into the World of Warcraft pvp mentality. People keep bringing up the 1v1 scenario. Most games arent balanced to 1v1 fights. Heck, if you're not one to pvp or have a build that you believe is weak in pvp why are you not traveling with friends? You do realize that your magical mystical dirty powerbuilding 70ac 50ab powerbuild can be achieved by a level 30 paladin with only the slightest amount of build experience right? Any cleric with 14 strength/dexterity depending on what you're focused on can self buff to over 50 ab right? That's not powerbuilding, that's knowing d&d and how to make a character.



Yes I do try to remain positive. It's why I take time to help people with builds and character concepts. Do I know builds that can solo the server and kill any player reguardless of build? Yep. 30 Wizard. 30 Cleric. 30 Druid. 30 Sorcerer. And that's not even optimized. To me, those builds can be full of roleplay. It's all of what you make it. Myself, I've found that I can't stand playing a caster. It's not my play style. If a person wants to purposefully weaken their characters in someway, go for it. No one's stopping you. To me however, if you're purposefully weakening your build to try to have some moral high ground of "LOOK AT ME IM NOT A POWERBUILDER!", you fall into the thing you're blaming other for: Not having a single rp reason behind it.

Crap, I meant to post a solution, too. An additional "mode" to the PvP tool list where PvP and Death both bring more consequence and more reward if both parties are in the same setting. Let's call it Dire mode for lack of a cooler name right now.




I'm usually of the school of thought that if you encourage and reward what you think is meaningful RP, it will happen a lot smoother than punishing or forcing people into it. So here, players who want to take PvP and Death more "seriously" can and will be rewarded for it, no matter if they win or lose. If you're standing around and some asshat runs in and kills everyone with no provocation or RP, cool, he gets nothing from it even if he is Dire--unless he's killed in the process, in which case he's dead for a good bit anyway. Alternatively, if you do want your death to "mean" something, no matter how trivial, you can stay dead for a while if you were in Dire Mode, get some XP out of it, and add to the story by being out of commission for a while.

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That system sounds good, but what would you do for the characters who have hit max level and xp is no longer a need for them? Not trying to take anything away from your suggestion because it's one of the better one's I've heard of to solve the meaningful death problem.

My instinct is to say that a statute could be implemented that allows max-level players to gain and spend additional XP via events and, yes, this method of PvP to request character changes, to demonstrate additional abilities your character would have gained by going above and beyond the 30-level cap. It would also allow players who have a DC deficit to perform certain requests on their main characters simply by playing them often, instead of needing to play them both often and in the correct circumstance.

I don't recommend PvE xp to be used for this purpose, though. That opens too many controversial doors, some of which were even addressed in this thread.


I've given my thoughts on PvP before. They're not unique. We ascribe meaning to what we see as meaningful. If you create meaningfulness in an encounter, it's going to produce meaning for you or others regardless of who's involved or what they're doing. The argument that it depends on the circumstances loses some of its luster when one can build a more powerful character arc out of five minutes getting thrashed by a necromancer than by standing in Cordor for three hours. But the reverse can also be true. I achieved one of the most lucrative characters arcs I've ever experienced via one of the most meaningless PvP encounters I've ever seen. Not every such encounter must be world-shaping, but you have better options than lying on the ground and seething for five minutes.



I think the powerbuilding debate is getting a little out of hand. By its strictest definition, 'powerbuilding' and 'minmaxing' are just other words for the practice of optimizing, and either you do it or you do it but don't realize it. The core of this isn't just the build itself, but in how it's developed and operated. At their apex, my main characters, a bard and a wizard, won't be powerful because they're a bard and a wizard, but because they and I recognize how to work with that, what their limitations are, and what strengths can overcome their limitations (which is what Solvaras is trying to get at and what you might recognize as a massively useful RP tool). Do you and your character recognize that you can't likely shift a boulder off the front of a cave entrance, but could probably wriggle through a gap, because you have a high Dexterity and a low Strength? Congratulations; you're a 'powerbuilder'. It isn't a concept that applies exclusively to PvP, and that's actually where thinking in these terms helps the LEAST, because of how simplistic combat mechanics in NWN are. You'll notice that PvP powerbuilders have come and gone with startling regularity (the Banite faction, most of the old Triadic Knights), but the RP powerbuilders have shaped the world around them drastically and with a great deal more permanence.

So, if I may quote a popular web media figure: "You do you, and I'll do me, and we won't do each other. Probably." Moving differently doesn't make the movement invalid. Someone who is comfortable configuring their attributes is no more than villain than someone who is comfortable configuring their personality. In fact, try doing some of both. Middle grounds tend to be more reasonable than an extreme.

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Contents subject to change without warning, reason, necessity, or logical imperative.

I hadn't figured out anything for that, really. The hyper-XP idea is neat, but I'm not sure if that's feasible. Which is a shame, because if you have level adjustment, you still gain XP (1 point at a time)that you indeed can use for request. But if you're ECL +0, you don't gain any at all and it's not tracked.

Actually, maybe the hyper XP thing is possible, if only in name. Have a counter that counts what XP you would have gotten from the kill, and DMs can look at that. If nothing else, I'm sure we can have Dire mode keep a kill/death ratio for Kills and deaths occured under Dire mode that might add some weight to requests and RP.

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In an effort to be constructive, I am up here for little events that may be PVP centric between willing parties, either discussed beforehand or via the server PVP rules in a more organic mindset. You're better off making me aware of your idea and then finding me IG than scheduling something however.

As with most things, the way you get them to happen is effort. Start doing what you want to see more of with respect to the rules and respect to eachother. Remember that waves of change build from ripples.

PvP can and have has meaning in the past. I know it has for several of my characters. As a DM I've seen plenty of PvP of all kinds, meaningful, enjoyable PvP, arena tournaments, and also those PvP incidents which just seem entirely random and pointless, and those where the OOC chat gets flooded with complaints and I have to step in and tell people to remain IC.

Okay, so what's the difference there? Why is some PvP enjoyable while others go sour and require DM intervention? I know that there was one incident in March that required DM intervention over PvP, so its not something that doesn't happen anymore. But from what I've seen, I can compile some basic thoughts on the matter.

First thing: PvP is about the story. It's not about trying to win, (that's PvPing for OOC reasons.), it's about trying to further a character's story through combat with another character. It is something that should have meaning and reason to it. Someone going up to a crowd and saying "Oh hey, look, people to kill." And then proceeding to try and kill them is not good. There's no reason for it. There's nothing engaging about it. It's shallow and rather pointless regardless of the outcome. A rivalry coming to a head after a lot of intrigue? That's better.

PvP must have IC reasons for happening, and not OOC ones. PvP without a sensible IC reason 1: isn't allowed by the rules, and 2: makes for really, really dull stories. It's something I've seen happen before, and I'd also seen PCs try to kill each other for some... really really dumb reasons, and I mean lethal combat, not just a bar brawl punch-out. Things such as:

Shutting a door near them. (Yes, this has happened)
An argument over who gets to sit down on a chair.
Being asked to identify themselves to guards. Instead of putting away weapons or taking off their helmet, the more common response seems to be to try and murder all of the guards nearby, usually resulting in getting themselves killed. (I've seen this one a lot)

I mean, really, what kind of psychopath kills someone for things like that? Even if they can get away with it, it's not really immersive because the reason for it is very thin. Racial rivalries? I can understand that. Rivalries of faith? Sure, go ahead. As long as it's IC and there's an escalation and reason for it, it can be fun. Incidents like the ones I outlined above are usually met with eyerolling by the other side at the end of it, and that's not good.

Moral of the story, make sure that when you go around PvPing, there's a definitive build up and reason for it. For those of you who play on EfU, I believe the saying is: Don't be a KODAX!!! Aka, don't go around PvPing with minimal IC reasons and mostly OOC ones.

Moving on,

The PvP rules aren't an out to IC consequences either. As it's been stated, the out is only to the PvP itself, not IC consequences that come of it. PCs are not free of consequences that other PCs can put on them. Capture, interrogation, etc. Also remember that IC, if a person is dead, they need someone else to raise/rescue them. It's not a guarantee. If I see a PC saying that they'll just be effortlessly raised and that no one ever dies, I'll likely smack the player for metagaming, (or maybe decide they'll need someone to actually raise them IC... don't tempt me. )

And finally, if you have a problem with how PvP went, /please/ don't spam OOC chat complaining about it. It's against the rules, it's disruptive of the flow of RP, and it makes everyone sour. If you must, screenshot the Chat and combat logs (Mostly so we can see what led up to the PvP) and send it to a DM. Or send up a DM channel tell if you must. We can and have put people on time-outs for disruptive amounts of OOC after PvP,.. please don't do it.

Really, the players have the tools available to make PvP fun, but it does go sour at times. I think it's because people do have different ideas as to what PvP is supposed to be. That's fine, I understand everyone's going to have different opinions on matters. But please, make it so that PvP has point and meaning, and not just random acts murderhoboism, and not being out to win, and it will be fun when it happens, I can guarantee. Even if it doesn't happen every day.

Don't be a murderhobo, people. (If you want, google the term murderhobo for some stories on it, I thought that one about fingers was particularly funny.)

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I play:

The main problem I've seen I'm regards to PvP is that the losing party usually gets angry and reports it to the DM team. Mostly just because they lost. I think we as players ought to not look as losing a fight in that manner as a loss at all and consider it more in the light of it being just another part of the story. Once you learn to lose gracefully it's also easier to win tactfully.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

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Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

Debate and discussion is great! Especially for a topic like this. Just nip the hard feelings in the bud before they start to spiral, guys. No one is trying to insult anyone's sense of RP quality or worth or anything. Keep it cool.

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Yup. There's no real right or wrong answer when it comes to the discussion of PvP powerbuilds. It really depends on where your character comes from. Some people create a build, then build a character around that build. Some people create a character, then create a build around that character. For Amia, those who are viewed as "powerbuilds" likely chose that former route. I, for instance, generally make characters around builds. I don't inherently do this because I want to win every PvP I ever encounter, but I do tend to make more militant characters. Therefore, it's important to me to understand the technical aspects of my character's build before the finesse aspects of the character itself.

Instead of focusing on how great some characters will inherently be at PvP, it's best to focus on the reason for PvP in general. If you're PvPing simply for the fun of killing things, then you're on the wrong server. However, if you're PvPing because your CHARACTER loves killing things, that could be construed differently. Any build can be beaten. If you character wants to go about murdering until he/she is jailed or killed outright, and you don't care about that consequence, then get your murder on. Just prepare to inevitably be beaten, and face the IC consequences of that sort of act.

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