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From the Wiki
Prerequisite: 21st level, dexterity 25+, dodge, tumble 30 ranks, improved evasion, defensive roll

Specifics: The character avoids the first attack each round.

Use: automatic

First of is it nerved in some way or the other on Amia? can't find it on the list?
they way i read this its -5AB to your opponent right?
And i take it its just from the first thing hitting you and not the first attack of every mob?

Thanks!!

Epic Dodge automaticly blocks the first round attack. It doesn't block every creature's first attack, because their attacks would be additional rounds.

Regards,
H.T.O

Thank for the INSTAND response

good to know.

Also, Dodge should be stricken from the pre-req list because it's not required to take Epic Dodge.

Naivatkal wrote:

Also, Dodge should be stricken from the pre-req list because it's not required to take Epic Dodge.

I thought Epic Dodge required Dodge and Mobility.

Regards,
H.T.O

Nope, neither. You just need to be epic and have 30 Tumble, 25 DEX, Defensive Roll, and Improved Evasion

Odd always figured nwn wiki was up to date on these things, one thing i learned is never to trust my nwn manual

Psst, the wiki has dodge marked out, silly ;p

People who call epic dodge +5 AC are just not taking builds with multiple attacks on their highest ab (rage, itwf, monks, etc.) into account. Its a nice feat but it only works on the first attack. Even haste is a reliable counter to epic dodge.

There is no counter to Epic Dodge. It is the best feat in the game.

Bob is right in that it is not -5 AB on the first attack, it is 'ignore the first attack'. Now I'm honestly not sure, but even if haste gives the op another attack per round it's still at their lowest AB, correct? So that doesn't necessarily negate ED, it only gives you another chance to /try/. PCs with ED generally have hellacious AC so those lower AB attacks aren't likely to get through anyway. :wink:

Epic Dodge does this: The First Successful HIT in a round does not count. If they miss with Attack one and attack two is a 20, they miss.

That simple. It does not add AC, nor take away AB, it simply makes the first HIT on you in a round not hit. So, against multiple attackers, it's less effective, but, one on one... it's VERY effective.

Epic dodge isn't a complete show stopper, anything with a high ab and haste will hit it reliably. I remember having a 75 AC on my blackguard and getting hit by things without haste all the time, and haste grants your extra attack at your full BAB. Like a said, it's a reliable counter. That's why I refer to ferocity attack itwf barbarians as a hard counter to epic dodge, since they get almost as many attacks as a monk build but at their full bab progression.

NWNLexicon wrote:

The extra attack can be a normal bonus melee attack (at your full, highest, base attack bonus), or even another spell - that is, spells take 3 seocnds to cast and you can cast 2 in a round.

Source: NWN Lexicon - EffectHaste

Edit: bab to bab progression for clarity

It also only works against one opponent. If you're being attacked by 5 people, and they each get 1 hit on you, you only dodge the first hit of the entire round - meaning you still get hit 4 times.

Epic Dodge is not an instant win button, it is just very handy in many situations.

Yeah, despite what I said above it is always worth taking if you build dex.

Well yeah.

The toughest build on Amia, most likely, is the bard/PM/SD, that gets immunities, super AC, epic dodge, HiPS, and shadow jump. But it has no offense. DEX is king of durability.

MisterLich wrote:

Well yeah.

The toughest build on Amia, most likely, is the bard/PM/SD, that gets immunities, super AC, epic dodge, HiPS, and shadow jump. But it has no offense. DEX is king of durability.

The toughest build is a PM / Bard / RDD. But it also makes no sense.

Regards,
H.T.O

Neither of those builds are any good :roll:

Depends on your definition of "tough". a shifter/dwarven defender focusing on undead shape gets the highest damage reducion/resistance on Amia. And still pulls 40 ab

That Guy wrote:

Epic Dodge does this: The First Successful HIT in a round does not count. If they miss with Attack one and attack two is a 20, they miss.

That simple. It does not add AC, nor take away AB, it simply makes the first HIT on you in a round not hit. So, against multiple attackers, it's less effective, but, one on one... it's VERY effective.

Incorrect. It's the first attack. Not first hit. I've had it on various characters I've played for a long time on Amia, it's the first attack.
Not the first attack of every persons attack. Just the first attack made upon the ED character that round.
Bob is correct in saying that an ITWF Fero barb is near negating the ED, but it's still nice to dodge at least one of those full AB, heavy hitting swings from a barb. Haste means you get your full AB attack off, but just not two full AB attacks.

Broldi wrote:

Incorrect.

It is actually correct. You can get attacked relentlessly for multiple rounds without Epic Dodge ever triggering, until your opponent actually hits you.

Huh. Then I apolagize, I was certain that it was teh first attack. I'm gonna have to test this.

Edit: I've seen no where else stating that the text for the ability is incorrect.

I've got it on several too... it's first hit.

From the NWN Wiki:

Quote:

This feat causes a character to automatically avoid the first successful attack or the first (possibly unsuccessful) attack of opportunity or riposte in a round, not simply the first attack in a round.

Epic dodge is hands down the most powerful feat in the game all things considered, those arguing otherwise are using epic dodge builds and are desperate to down play the overpoweredness of having the ability to out duel any melee build in the game and don't want it to get removed which would just ruined their pvp on this role play server

As far as I have seen you need to be a shifty undead form to force a draw or an epic spell thrower to have a ~chance~ so watch out folks make use of the screen shot function when around epic dodge builds you are gonna need it

Also

Holydeath wrote:

its -5AB to your opponent right?

This is because a characters 2nd attack is -5 ab less than the first which this feat automatically negates on hit, add this to the fact that the epic dodge build is routinely in expertise mode the fact is you will miss your first successful attack and the rest of your attacks are at -10 AB relative to your main attack.
Couple this with the fact that dex builds have far more inherent AC than str builds and yeah it is not thats not op....much....

Hasted, you're going to still get your attack. And if you land a dev crit or a knockdown, that fully maxed dex build is suddenly just an inert ass waiting to get pounded. True strike to get around the high AC issue.

Barbarian, hasted, furious rage, with properly timed true strikes. All three of your un-munched attacks are going to fall in the 7 second window. They're all going to hit the +20 cap. The first attack is going to miss, sure, but the next two are going to have a 50/50 chance of hitting at minimum.

Epic dodge is strong, but it's not a win button unless the person is completely unprepared, unlucky, or just uninformed.

That Guy wrote:

From the NWN Wiki:

Quote:

This feat causes a character to automatically avoid the first successful attack or the first (possibly unsuccessful) attack of opportunity or riposte in a round, not simply the first attack in a round.

>_> Successful attack. An attack that doesn't hit you is not a successful attack. So, no, the first attack that is going to hit you will be the one Epic Dodge avoids.

I can confirm I've seen mobs roll a 1 on their first attack then 'hit' on their second and Epic Dodge triggered on that second hit.

OR... I can't tell if you are using that to support what Broldi is saying or Sphinx. Heh. If Sphinx, my bad.

Strikeclone wrote:

Holydeath wrote:

its -5AB to your opponent right?

This is because a characters 2nd attack is -5 ab less than the first which this feat automatically negates on hit, add this to the fact that the epic dodge build is routinely in expertise mode the fact is you will miss your first successful attack and the rest of your attacks are at -10 AB relative to your main attack.
Couple this with the fact that dex builds have far more inherent AC than str builds and yeah it is not thats not op....much....

... Please don't spread around the 'ED = -5 AB' fallacy. In theory it can equate that. But when if the first attack rolls a 1 and they roll a 1 on the second, then the third is a 20? That -5 AB claim is out the window.

HorkTheOrk wrote:

Epic Dodge automaticly blocks the first round attack. It doesn't block every creature's first attack, because their attacks would be additional rounds.

Regards,
H.T.O

This isn't exactly true. It blocks the first -hit-.

Epic Dodge; NWN Wiki wrote:

This feat causes a character to automatically avoid the first successful attack or the first (possibly unsuccessful) attack of opportunity or riposte in a round, not simply the first attack in a round.

Occasionally (when combined with parry), epic dodge may be shifted to a different successful attack in the same flurry as the first successful attack. The end result is typically the same, though.

Epic dodge only applies to a character's current target or latest attacker.

Come on, guys.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Neither of those builds are any good :roll:

Oh a bard/PM/SD is absolute shit, but it gets stupid survivability if you play it like a shadowdancer. I would go so far as to say it can't be killed if you know how to play it. But, you'll -never- kill anybody else, and you will be utterly worthless in PvE.

And yes. Epic Dodge blocks the first SUCCESSFUL attack, i.e. the first attack that would have normally hit you. Not the first attack in a round. I have experienced this as well, plus the wiki states it clearly.

Lastly, someone here mentioned how people are going to downplay Epic Dodge because they don't want it to be removed because it would screw up their pvp on an rp server... Seriously. Let's not go down the fallacious road of "pvp hurts rp!". Pvp is a part of role play, and if you can't see it as anything but a dick measuring contest that you CAN'T lose... Then you're part of the reasons the server is dying. Lack of IC conflict (without making it OOC conflict). There's nothing wrong or bad about pvp, or people who like pvp. Please don't perpetuate the idea that there is.

Please try to keep on the topic of Epic Dodge, specifically, rather than deviate to good builds. Additionally, please try to be calm and polite when replying. Thank you.

Well I'm there now and i must say Epic Dodge is handy on top of 60AC/48AB unbuft 30+reflex and improved evasion it really makes him not get hurt much
That said i found the dmg to be rather low (70's n a crit and 100's on a crit when sneaking
(i'm used to playing a melee cleric of kelemvor and using improved exspertise comapred to my dex/wm the cleric still feels like i'm playing the game on Easy mode, where the dex WM needs so many bufs to get any decend killing speed ^^)
Ofc in pvp its the other way around but i never liked it

And its indeed the first attack that hits me in the round

Thanks for all your input guys, really helped!

Naivatkal wrote:

... Please don't spread around the 'ED = -5 AB' fallacy.

Please don't refer to my post as a "fallacy" when it is nothing more than the literal truth, a characters second attack is 5 points less than the first attack, that is an undisputed fact.

+20/+15/+10/+5

Anything fallacious there? No because epic dodge completely mitigates the first successful attack and when you are looking at an opponent that will have AC 60-65-70 range you need a lot of luck and regardless of which attack hits and is therefore ignored the next one will be at -5 ab to the one that hit.

So sure you are relying on 20 rolls most of the time, but people are talking about true strike potions and other things but even with the true strike bonus any attack you are hoping to hit with once the first hit has been negated every other attack that round will still be -5 AB relative to the attack that hit.

What is "fallacious" is your accusation I am "spreading" something untrue when in fact I only replied to the OPs comment specifically about the -5 to AB and sought to clarify the facts for him.

The fact still remains that epic dodge basically makes a character invincible in melee, pvp or pve I've seen this with my own eyes in game over extended periods of time as one of my regular party members was using the epic dodge build and from the get go he was very tanky just from his high dex, once he got lvl 27 he just become invincible without buffs it was the standing joke in our group.

I would just like to know when will Amia be introducing the "Epic Attack" feat so I can rebuild my Str devcrit weapon master and have him be useful again lol.

Epic Dodge is not -5 AB to your opponent. It is an incorrect oversimplification. It's been awhile since the actual math was discussed, but I recall it being concluded that a guy with 55 AC and Epic Dodge is harder to hit than the one with 70 AC and no feat.

That literally isn't true. I've had no problem hitting theadric at a 57 AC with epic dodge on Gerald. And Gerald is terrible.

Last edited by Holydeath on Sun, Mar 15 2015, 12:30 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Sphinx wrote:

Epic Dodge is not -5 AB to your opponent. It is an incorrect oversimplification. It's been awhile since the actual math was discussed, but I recall it being concluded that a guy with 55 AC and Epic Dodge is harder to hit than the one with 70 AC and no feat.

Aye it is, but i do be leave that 1vs1 it stands do
Another thing i noticed i was testing epic dodge vs a fury Barbarian, he dispelled+raged at the same time making me run of with improved expertise on making my ac 70, after about 10-15 min, he finally killed me.

What startled me is this, aint i flatfooted when feared or is Uncanny dodge preventing that? and why dident improved expertise turn of?
That and Epic dodge worked when feared?
Like sure i still had 70AC but i was feared.
He has 50AB and 6 attacks when hasted and a fear DC of 41 Oo

Bit puzzled about this one, especially why i was still immune to his attacks save for a roll of 20 and even then Epic dodge kickt in.
SO he has to roll a 20 twice in the same round to hurt me? Even when feared?
We bothe must be overlooking something as it left us rather startled!!
Epic dodge just got more confusing to me now ^^

Strikeclone wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

The fact still remains that epic dodge basically makes a character invincible in melee, pvp or pve I've seen this with my own eyes in game over extended periods of time as one of my regular party members was using the epic dodge build and from the get go he was very tanky just from his high dex, once he got lvl 27 he just become
invincible without buffs it was the standing joke in our group.

And yup that's me he's talking about, i finally got to 30 after taking a long and needed break, whatever happened to Thel? Updated my sig accordingly

Fear doesn't render you flat-footed. Epic Dodge also functions always - even when you're asleep or petrified, amusingly enough.

Sphinx wrote:

Fear doesn't render you flat-footed. Epic Dodge also functions always - even when you're asleep or petrified, amusingly enough.

Oh? Always figured fear made you flat-footed as you weren't in combat, good to know.
And Epic dodge working always makes no sense but again, good to know it dose

Thanks for clearing that up mate.
Looks like that Combat went as intended then.

Sphinx wrote:

Epic Dodge is not -5 AB to your opponent. It is an incorrect oversimplification. It's been awhile since the actual math was discussed, but I recall it being concluded that a guy with 55 AC and Epic Dodge is harder to hit than the one with 70 AC and no feat.

I am not saying epic dodge is -5 ab.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Base_attack_bonus

You will note that each attack after the first is 5 points less. This is a very basic fact of the mechanics of 3.0 d&d, it is not incorrect, it is not an over simplification, it does not require mathematics or discussion, nor is it fallacious.

The relevance to epic dodge is that the first attack that hits in a given round is automatically negated without exception meaning that the attacker is then reliant on whatever attacks are left that round which are as per basic rules -5 / -10/ -15 and so on from which ever attack was automatically negated.

Couple this with the fact that epic dodge builds will have effective AC typically in the 60-70 range this massively impacts the ability of an attacker to do useful damage, whilst taking weapon master crits in return. This is what makes the build so over powered and why so many melee pvpers who have got lost in the role player server of Amia are using it.

I do not see the feat being removed anytime soon so why is everyone scrambling to disassociate the power of the build with epic dodge, when it is the epic dodge feat this entire build is crafted around.
I am not critising those using it, but neither am I prepared to dance around the fact that this is a pvp build that basically makes a character invulnerable in melee pvp to anyone not also an epic dodge build or undead shifter shape.

You can't argue that Epic Dodge is effectively -5 AB and then say that you are not saying that. That's just.. silly.

And you didn't even touch on the scenario I gave you that blows the -5 AB thing out of the water: If you miss your first two attacks and hit on the third... the '-5 AB' is out the window because you didn't get -5 AB on your first two attacks. That only even 'counts' as -5 AB if the first attack hits. That is why saying -5 AB is a oversimplification.

Besides the -5AB is a result of the combat system and not Epic Dodge.

Naivatkal wrote:

You can't argue that Epic Dodge is effectively -5 AB and then say that you are not saying that. That's just.. silly.

And you didn't even touch on the scenario I gave you that blows the -5 AB thing out of the water: If you miss your first two attacks and hit on the third... the '-5 AB' is out the window because you didn't get -5 AB on your first two attacks. That only even 'counts' as -5 AB if the first attack hits. That is why saying -5 AB is a oversimplification.

Besides the -5AB is a result of the combat system and not Epic Dodge.

You are (willfully?) missing my point but rather than "spread" anymore "fallacious" anything, I think it best to leave it there as further going back over the same points won't advance the topic as clearly some people for whatever reason (this would be where the "fallacious" arguments go) want to try to argue that epic dodge build isn't in fact as strong as it is.

And its not important enough to argue with people about.

P.S. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it "oversimplified"

P.P.S. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it is "fallacious"

P.P.P.S. So please moderate your words and tone if you want a civil discourse, I am trying my best to be courteous here but having my comments belittled is unworthy of a fellow player in my book. So agree or disagree lets keep it civil?

Personally don't think Epic dodge is that OP having played one for some time now(granted only lvl 30 for a little bit),

thanks for clarifying how and when it works, makes allot more sense to me now!

This is not an agree or disagree matter... This is like saying "2 + 2 = 5". Doesn't matter what you think; you're objectively wrong.

If I have haste or I have ferocity attack, or both, then epic dodge means jack. It is not a -5 AB.

If I am not either hasted or using ferocity attack, it is still not -5 AB, for the example Nai pointed out.

If I am a Monk and my AB is based on 3's instead of 5's, then epic dodge is, again, not equivalent to a -5 AB penalty.

Epic dodge is not the most overpowered feat ever, and it is not -5 AB to your opponent. It doesn't dodge the first attack in a round. It doesn't dodge an attack from every opponent. It dodges one attack per round no matter how many opponents or attacks are flying at you, and it only dodges an attack that would have otherwise hit you, not just the first attack in the round - and if your opponent has Haste, that means he has two attacks at his full BAB, meaning your epic dodge is mathematically useless now.

MisterLich wrote:

Iif your opponent has Haste, that means he has two attacks at his full BAB, meaning your epic dodge is mathematically useless now.

Except that if we're being entirely objective as you'd prefer, it is still far from useless. :p

Sphinx wrote:

MisterLich wrote:

Iif your opponent has Haste, that means he has two attacks at his full BAB, meaning your epic dodge is mathematically useless now.

Except that if we're being entirely objective as you'd prefer, it is still far from useless. :p

Well yes, you still dodge the first attack that hits, but what I meant is that the user has a second attack at his full BAB - so it is a decent counter to epic dodge.

It's not mathmatically useless.

Epic dodger ac is roughly 70 (im sure i'm missing an ac or two somehow)

To use your example of a hasted ferocity rage barbarian, his ab with a truestrike potion should be around 64 (again, im sure i missed an ab or two)

Just using those numbers, that's a 30 percent miss chance. But that only works for the first three attacks, every other attack goes down 5 ab. Then you have stuff like bard song, divine shield, and shield ally giving even more ac.

Solvaras wrote:

It's not mathmatically useless.

Epic dodger ac is roughly 70 (im sure i'm missing an ac or two somehow)

To use your example of a hasted ferocity rage barbarian, his ab with a truestrike potion should be around 64 (again, im sure i missed an ab or two)

Just using those numbers, that's a 30 percent miss chance. But that only works for the first three attacks, every other attack goes down 5 ab. Then you have stuff like bard song, divine shield, and shield ally giving even more ac.

Don't forget the fact if they have Impro Invis on that make them near impossible to hit.

I personally feel that Epic Dodge is good, but not to the level that the old Dev Crit use to be at. There is a lot of disadvantages in going Dex based in general and I think Epic Dodge is one of the few things that help counteract it. You could argue that damage for a Dex based char isn't a problem when you take account of all the potential sneak damage through HIPS or corner sneaking, but as any HIPS or corner sneaker will tell you sneak is far from an Iwin button against anyone player who knows the multitude of ways to counteract hide (Bioware TS from polymorphs, listen/spot builds, AoE magic spam, or the dozens of PM builds out there to name few).

Maverick00053 wrote:

Solvaras wrote:

It's not mathmatically useless.

Epic dodger ac is roughly 70 (im sure i'm missing an ac or two somehow)

To use your example of a hasted ferocity rage barbarian, his ab with a truestrike potion should be around 64 (again, im sure i missed an ab or two)

Just using those numbers, that's a 30 percent miss chance. But that only works for the first three attacks, every other attack goes down 5 ab. Then you have stuff like bard song, divine shield, and shield ally giving even more ac.

Don't forget the fact if they have Impro Invis on that make them near impossible to hit.

I personally feel that Epic Dodge is good, but not to the level that the old Dev Crit use to be at. There is a lot of disadvantages in going Dex based in general and I think Epic Dodge is one of the few things that help counteract it. You could argue that damage for a Dex based char isn't a problem when you take account of all the potential sneak damage through HIPS or corner sneaking, but as any HIPS or corner sneaker will tell you sneak is far from an Iwin button against anyone player who knows the multitude of ways to counteract hide (Bioware TS from polymorphs, listen/spot builds, AoE magic spam, or the dozens of PM builds out there to name few).

GAH! I knew I was forgetting something. Improved Invis shifts the game squarely into the doger's favor. It might be death of 1000 cuts, but the strength based build 9 times out of 10 will lose.

Solvaras wrote:

Maverick00053 wrote:

Solvaras wrote:

It's not mathmatically useless.

Epic dodger ac is roughly 70 (im sure i'm missing an ac or two somehow)

To use your example of a hasted ferocity rage barbarian, his ab with a truestrike potion should be around 64 (again, im sure i missed an ab or two)

Just using those numbers, that's a 30 percent miss chance. But that only works for the first three attacks, every other attack goes down 5 ab. Then you have stuff like bard song, divine shield, and shield ally giving even more ac.

Don't forget the fact if they have Impro Invis on that make them near impossible to hit.

I personally feel that Epic Dodge is good, but not to the level that the old Dev Crit use to be at. There is a lot of disadvantages in going Dex based in general and I think Epic Dodge is one of the few things that help counteract it. You could argue that damage for a Dex based char isn't a problem when you take account of all the potential sneak damage through HIPS or corner sneaking, but as any HIPS or corner sneaker will tell you sneak is far from an Iwin button against anyone player who knows the multitude of ways to counteract hide (Bioware TS from polymorphs, listen/spot builds, AoE magic spam, or the dozens of PM builds out there to name few).

GAH! I knew I was forgetting something. Improved Invis shifts the game squarely into the doger's favor. It might be death of 1000 cuts, but the strength based build 9 times out of 10 will lose.

True, but if the epic dodger can use scrolls to get impro invis then you can bet the strength builds can use them as well to strip that 50% concealment. Heck, I know there are some items on Amia that purge invisibility. If either are crafty and use their head they can take the advantage.

MisterLich wrote:

This is not an agree or disagree matter... This is like saying "2 + 2 = 5". Doesn't matter what you think; you're objectively wrong.

If I have haste or I have ferocity attack, or both, then epic dodge means jack. It is not a -5 AB.

If I am not either hasted or using ferocity attack, it is still not -5 AB, for the example Nai pointed out.

If I am a Monk and my AB is based on 3's instead of 5's, then epic dodge is, again, not equivalent to a -5 AB penalty.

Epic dodge is not the most overpowered feat ever, and it is not -5 AB to your opponent. It doesn't dodge the first attack in a round. It doesn't dodge an attack from every opponent. It dodges one attack per round no matter how many opponents or attacks are flying at you, and it only dodges an attack that would have otherwise hit you, not just the first attack in the round - and if your opponent has Haste, that means he has two attacks at his full BAB, meaning your epic dodge is mathematically useless now.

I am not going to entertain a discussion on this level I'm afraid, as its clear you either don't understand what is being said or you willfully don't want to (note there is a difference between understanding and agreeing). Either way all I have to say at this point is the following.

Strikeclone wrote:

I think it best to leave it there as further going back over the same points won't advance the topic as clearly some people for whatever reason want to try to argue that epic dodge build isn't in fact as strong as it is.

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