I've identified some things about us as a group of players that I think will only serve to harm the longevity of the server right now. We as a collective seem to claim that we can't or don't trust the DM team and want them to change, but that can only happen if we ourselves actually affect change among the entire collective first. This is my first step toward that.

Key problems

• We do not like people who generate conflict.
  
  • We are often quick to view the player on the other side of the conflict as bad people when we lose.
• We do not like it when other people's actions, player or DM side, cause our characters to face consequences.
  
  • This issue has come up quite often. When something bad happens to a faction base, or a settlement, or a character, we tend to get angry about it. This can happen, but it often ends up being taken to the forums in unwarranted aggression or spite toward the offending party.
• We expect to enforce consequences on others but often flatly refuse to have anything placed on us.
  
  • I have seen and heard of instances of players who try to permanently kill off other player's characters refuse to be held for any longer than a period of time longer than twenty four hours.
  • I have occasionally seen players do this using DM resources and when repraisal comes form another group of players who had stake in the character removed, they "refused pnp" or "refused to be held longer than 24 hours".
• Behind each others backs, we are very, very, very mean. The rumor mill on amia has been one of the most unpleasant I've seen on a server - and it gets back to the person we're talking about.
  
  • We have more than one DM leaving because of the rumor mill here. This is not a joke. We are not being nice to each other.

I know that's a bit of a list. I don't want anyone to think this post is an attack but I needed examples. Anyway I think we as a player base can all do well do keep some things in mind when we interact with each other.

• We are people
• We will make mistakes
• We are not our characters
• Things done to our characters are not being done to us
• Things being done by other people's characters are not being done by them
• This is a game

Now that I've gotten some of those things out of the way, I'd like to address some things that we have misconceptions about.

PvP

How it is often percived:
A fight between one or more players

How it should be perceived:
A fight between one or more characters

When we engage in PvP, we have to consider this as conflict between our characters that has role play involved. If we take it as a fight between two players we are going to be angry with each other. It is literally unavoidable. When people fight each other they are angry, because something the other person did offended us in the first place. It doesn't add to the server, the narrative, or create role play when we get into PvP with the idea that the other person has personally done us wrong.

When conflict is engaged in with a separation of player and character, we don't lose a fight and immediately report it to the DM team, claiming that there was some sort of use of exploits simply because we lost. We don't create a witch hunt aimed at the player of the offending character. We just role play, and have a night free of ego and attachment on either side.

Consequences

How they are often percived:
Out of character punishment for in character actions

How it should be perceived:
The product of my character's actions and development of our continued role play

Now I'm not going to run around saying that we need to start permanently killing off our characters just because some guy stabbed our character in the gut, that would be kind of silly. However I would prefer to see us as players not so afraid of the idea of our characters having things done to them, or seeing them in prison for what they've done, or letting other players use crazy magic on us after we're captured. That sort of stuff offers interesting role play when it isn't done in an obvious, over the top manner and I think some of the most intense interaction I've had on my PC was in a cell in Wiltun. Gerald met with his captor, someone who could be considered a ghost from his past coming back to haunt him, and they both had this very human interaction.

Seeing Velden scared Gerald because he saw what he could become. It was really, really great.

But I also sort of just think that when we play in a setting where there are inherent consequences for the actions we might want to take, we're forced to take them more carefully, and we're forced to have better reasons than #evil to do so. It only really adds to our role play and I think if both sides are mature about how they handle things, and willing to meet certain stipulations (such as actually interacting with a player when you hold them hostage) it can be an interesting experience for all of us.

The rumor mill

Okay, this one can't really be summed up with a "how it starts" and "how it ends" definition. We are not treating each other nicely. We've all gotten angry before, it's a very human thing. When we do, we often want to vent, and that's also very human. But sometimes when we vent we take it too far. Sometimes we take it to everyone we know, and we're more than just venting, we're plain mean.

Disagreements happen, they're a part of life. The best thing we can do is remember that the person on the other side of the screen is a person, and not some avatar trying to ruin your day.

So the best I can say here is that we really just make an effort to be nicer to each other. Don't treat each other a certain way and try not to talk as much venom as we do when we're not looking at each other. It only hurts the player base and often frustrates the DM team because a lot of what we talk about is referencing them because they did something we didn't like.

I think if we can bare the above in mind, we can all mutually make the server more enjoyable for each other. I didn't cover much of anything about the DM team here because if I do, it's another post. But I think it would also benefit us to remember that the DM team do not get paid to do this, and they are essentially just players with the ability to control NPCs. Often times they are just trying to make the game more enjoyable for everyone, including themselves.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

Amen.

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Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"

#Like

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Profiles: DakoDako & ElWacko

Characters: Currently trying my best to stick to Beridoc Brushgale

That's a pretty cool introspective look at how we act as players, bob. People shouldn't forget that DM's make up the playerbase too. We're no different than anyone else when it comes to all of the topics you listed and how we react to them. That's why I hate the "us vs. them" mentality... but anyways.

It's good to take a breath and identify these things that sometimes contribute to a toxic attitude in all of us.

Good post.

A common saying amongst Dwarf Fortress players: 'losing is fun.' That sentiment could really benefit Amia regarding conflict, although I might be more inclined to change it to 'losing should be fun' for our purposes since so many players have quite clearly shown that losing has not been much fun at all.

.. I love those bullets. I haven't yet read the material, but the way it's structured makes me very happy. How do you do these

things?

.. Oh.

Now that I have read them, I think this is very interesting. But I think what would also be very interesting is for the DM's to attempt a similar reflection. It doesn't need to be public, of course-- but it might help!

This could sound crude coming from me-- but I hope, hope, hope that it is not the case. As I mean absolutely no ugliness by it:

Basically, I think that Bob's points are by and large correct. But I believe that this is also a cycle produced by an "Us vs Them" mentality. One which is perpetuated unconsciously by both sides. Thus, I earnestly invite the same reflection from members of the staff. What are things the DM's can improve or address to foster a greater mutual enjoyment of the game? Things like that.

Please don't take this as a demand of any kind. Forcing reflection produces either poor reflection or upset people-- and I want neither! I just think this is a great opportunity for the community as a whole. But I worry that if it's not done as a whole, that there will be continued "Us vs Them" sentiment. Well, no. I don't worry. But I think it would be neat to see.

We're actively doing this. Not in bob's particular format, which is great, but it's happening and has been for some time now.

And I get that you hate the 'us vs. them' mentality, gorgz, but... The fact of the matter is that there are still differences in DMs and players, as much as there are similarities, so to ignore those differences or to "hate" them just provides more ammo and frustration for when those differences cause friction and issues. Those differences are perpetuated within this framework, on both sides, and it definitely should not be pushed under the rug because it makes people uncomfortable. Uncomfortable things are always worth talking about, I think.

Glad to see a lot of the key points of recent dissatisfaction put together into a singular format, this will help a lot of folks try to find solutions to the problems at hand!

Better find solutions before the DM team resorts to a 40/60 ratio of C2H6O to H2O

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

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Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

The main thing that always baffled me about Amia was the way in which people dehumanize one another to justify treating them like shit. I mean it happens a lot on FPS when you encounter someone for all of 20 minutes maybe, and they call into question your sexuality and then claim they had coitus with your mother and that's hilarious to me, it just rolls right off my back. But some of the things I've seen on this server as a DM makes me shudder, I would never talk to anyone in real life like I've seen some folks talk on here. A lot of you need to remember your age and the fact that there's people on the other side of the computer screen that are going to eventually find out all the fucked up shit you've said about them. This isn't high school, it's an online community where we all have at least one thing in common - the desire to roleplay, so I just don't understand the vitriolic atmosphere that has slowly but surely begun to creep into this community. The best way to tackle it would be to stop acting like prepubescent children and talk to people directly if you have an issue with them, and if you can't resolve it go to the DM team who will do their utmost to help you.

I also agree with everything Bob said.

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I'm gonna go ahead and admit where I've been wrong and say that I haven't been the best to you on occasions. There was especially a recent occasion on the improving amia forums where I was less than awesome in a response to you on knight commander. I still disagree with you on the merits of the class but calling your ability to play the game into question in an insulting manner like I did was dickish.

So I am sorry about that. I know we've clashed more but this is also on my part an attempt to be better myself.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

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Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

I thought about something at work, while I was willing the hours to pass. We do not like to consent to pnp spells, or extended kidnappings, or a lot of unusual things being done to our characters.

I think the core of this issue is that we do not trust each other. And I think that's bad. We're a community of fourty-to-sixty people. We ought to be able to trust each other with our mutual enjoyment, and trust that the player of a character isn't just trying to punish the player of our character.

I know there may be blows and old wounds, but lets try and trust each other a little more. Not even all the way, but more than we have. As players we cannot even begin to try to address our trust issues with the DM team if we can't trust each other.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

<3 Good post. I feel like some of the issues Amia has with the polarization and vitriol has to do with the innate inbreeding of RP and cliques that Amia is relatively incapable of disconnecting from itself. If we could further ingratiate the communal aspect I think we'd be quicker to recognize the humanity between us and we'd certainly feel and act more like a community. As it stands I think we're more conglomeration of micro-communities in an overarching banner.

While I do believe there are some standardized factors to these issues I don't deny that ultimately we're all capable of our own decisions on the matters and should in our adulthood be able to recognize them and best appropriate ourselves for the benefit of all. In light of this I apologize wholeheartedly to those I have offended in the past given my heated nature and uncompromising opinions and often aggressive method of attempting to establish them against what I do often perceive as opponents. Sorry, seriously. I'll work on my sometimes poor behavior in hopes to do my part as a member of this community.

Thanks for the post bob, it's a breath of fresh air.

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bad man

I think part of the reason people don't trust other people is because a hell of a lot of attachment comes with some characters.

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

Yeah, I mostly didn't post anything about the DM team because I think while I can relate I'm no in the position they're in. I certainly have opinions to offer the team that I think are helpful but I'm withholding some of them for the time being mostly because, as the team said, they're sort of reflecting on the state of things themselves at the moment. Though I have a few sentiments I might like to share privately, since I think certain things don't need to be posted on a public forum for the team to take them into consideration.

That said, is there anyone who would mind fielding those private thoughts for me, and possibly posting them somewhere constructive?

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

Send 'em on, bobby boy.

I guess that distrust is something which is natural when encountering someone that you don't know very well. Well, not so much distrust as ambivalence.

But also, there is a build up of distrust when people do mean things for no real reason. I can't really tell you what to do there, but I guess what's really needed is an almost unhealthy shot of positivity.

Winning or losing, in the context of the server and the story that is trying to be unfolded, are just outcomes. They give your characters motivations, yes, but for you as a player, try to think of it as a day at the office, doing a job you passionately enjoy. Be a little detatched from your character, from the job of portraying them, and look forward to tomorrow. Because when you aren't looking forward to tomorrow, that's when you start calling in sick and wondering why you ever liked that job in the first place. And that is not a good place to be.

And you know, don't talk behind someone's back. Be a little introspective and ask yourself what is really bothering you, and then talk to them about it. Even if you're really clumsy with explaining how you feel, at least you're being honest and forthright and willing to give them a chance to explain their side of things.

+1 Bob

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Glad to see you taking a positive interest, BoB. You've come across as sad and disheartened for the past several months and this is a nice change to see in you. I hope it stays!

Be gud to each uva or Aggie will find ya an talk to ya fer ours and ours....

You ave been warned!

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Aggie Agetha War Knight (much to the chagrin of certain players and character )

To be honest that's because I was for a little bit, but now I'm just doing this thing where I try to influence things positively instead of occasionally grumbling at people like I was for a while. I wasn't having fun doing it and it's not really helping anything. And since I'm posting here again, I'd like to say a thing.

Here's a thing at people.

Expectations of the Team

We as players have a tendancy to put our DM team on a pedestal and forget that everyone is only human. We expect that everything they produce will meet 100% of our expectations 100% of the time, and I think that's a mistake. The team are players who accepted an offer to help make the server more functional and interesting.

Sometimes they make a mistake, or sometimes they do a thing we disagree with. And sometimes we get angry for it. Sometimes we get really angry, and we say hurtful things to or about members of the DM team. I've done it too, so I know you've done it. It's okay, here's what I'm going to suggest.

When you get mad, remember that they meant well. I know that's an overly simplified explanation to things you might be seeing in front of you, but I also think that's as simple as it needs to be. I've yet to see any sort of maliciousness that has come from a member of the team, but I have seen plenty of frustrated responses. When we see these we have to remember that they're not trying to snap at us, they have lives behind the screen and then when they read some of the things we've been posting (even the stuff I've posted) the game starts to not be fun anymore, and helping make the game fun stops being fun as well. At that point the DM team is basically doing a second job that they don't enjoy or find any satisfaction in, and they do it for people whom are either angry or hostile toward them.

Now I know this isn't going to solve the issue of relations between players and the team overnight. But I think remembering stuff like that is something we ought to do for the sake of our own enjoyment. Being pissed off at each other just makes this game not-fun.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

+1 again

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The foremost responsibility of the DM is towards those whom they personally dislike. The same applies to any job with even a modicum of authority. You simply MUST put aside personal feelings and be able to serve the player with due understanding and consideration for their needs and circumstances regardless of how obnoxious he is or has been to you. If you cannot do it, even after being peer reviewed, you aren't cut out for the job. The only exception to this is when the behaviour of the offender gets so bad it violates our rules. Otherwise, you simply have to keep your DM pants on and maintain a poker face when addressing DM-y issues. Which issues are regarded as DM-y is ultimately up to the DM Team, but DMs should also, at times, be allowed to pull off their DM pants and be themselves among their fellow players, because playing the role is really not always that serious and generally we all have some empathy.

EDIT: The way of thinking that whatever people do they really, deep in their hearts, always mean well is hurtful and can easily turn against our interests: it distances us from the truth in situations where truth and humility are most needed. Sometimes people act on impulse just to hurt you without meaning well. Sometimes they vent and aggress on the wrong people. Then the only thing to do is admit your mistake and grow from it. We aren't always rational and composed, we do things out of spite and that rarely, if ever, ends well for anyone. That doesn't mean we shouldn't trust you guys to do your best, you require and deserve a strong vote of confidence to operate smoothly with the community, but we must also be very critical, constantly question your solutions and you must provide us with rationale, and sometimes that may feel like, or actually is, an affront. You must know how to deal with it, or if you don't, you must learn how to.

If a person is wrong to the point of being incapable to carry out their job right (whatever that means), that has to be attacked time and time again until they submit and learn. Being always understanding won't teach him anything. If they don't endure critical review and deem it their right to counterattack rather than deliberate, they're simply not aware of the sensibilities of their position. Should such a situation arise, removing a DM shouldn't really be a big deal, just like firing a person in any community for not meeting the expectations lined in their job description.

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Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill
All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person
I know you heard this and probably in fear
-Kendrick Lamar, good kid

Hey Opustus. I think we went and grew up at some point. I remember when we used to be the people testing the boundaries of DM sanity, now we talkin' about love, peace and human fraternity.

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

Ummkay! Sure we have grown up, I've always commended Amia for it. My point was that a DM cannot make amends by saying, "I was cranky, I'm human too! When I do something wrong, remember that I really meant well", because it simply isn't true.

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Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill
All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person
I know you heard this and probably in fear
-Kendrick Lamar, good kid

Well, no. When you're being purposefully combative in a thread where trying to humanize the issues we as a player base have been under lately and help diffuse tensions so we can get back to having fun with each other, I can only draw one conclusion. You are intentionally being a part of the problem.

Feel free to prove me wrong here though. I really am just trying to remind everyone that everyone here is human. I don't think our player base or DM team (at least people that don't get caught doing so) are trying to make the server not fun for each other, especially not intentionally. What I'm trying to push is the idea that we be willing to look past mistakes and miss steps, or even outright being wrong.

That said we have moments or even long periods of time where we can just get frustrated and snap at people. During those times I usually advocate taking a break because the people doing this usually aren't having fun.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

I honestly doubt any DM (definately not me) takes joy in "screwing players over" and intends to do it.

The feeling of this can hail from a lot of different angles depening on the case.

One is simply a different view or like or dislike.

In PnP the DM usually has a handful of people they know pretty well. They know how they tick. They know they react to what kind of things. On a server with a playerbase like Amia this is different. If a DM is a faction DM, he/she may get to know a large portion of the players in it and how they work. Also if they DM a plot or a specific group. If you DM a plot which is a small spontaneous plot or a plot that can involve almost any player on the server who wants to be involved this is not the case.

So a lot of players enjoy some hacking monsters. It can happen though that a DM now makes a mob of whatever attack a place, and suddenly there are people who do not like that kind of RP at all. They are not prepared for it, they might die in the event, get raised and are totally pissed because "that retarded DM just wanted to screw us over and kill us all"... while the rest of those around happily slaughtered the mob and goes like "hell yes that was cool, just what my barbarian enjoyed."

Things like that happen on a regular base. Or you make a plot which involve a lot of riddles. Then you see a few players log out after a "dumb DM doesn't even want us to solve the plot and makes it extra hard" in party chat, while 3 others have a blast for finally having not to do any fighting.

Of course in an ideal world any plot would have something in it for everyone. But that is very rarely to happen. It can be hard to balance things for everyone to like with such a different and changing playerbase (and exciting too, mind!).

Some love harsh consequences. Some get upset by them and feel discouraged. Some love fight, some hate it. Some love brain-cracking riddles, some get nightmares from them. Some love to be in any plot available, some already get have a seizure if the word DM plot is only mentioned.

Some love dark and twisted, some prefer casual and light.

In any case I can assure we do not try to screw anyone over. Why? Keep in mind if 'you' have no fun, we do not either.

What can we do to maybe ease that "they try to screw me" feeling.

1. If you are uncomfortable by something, say it please. In that, very clear wording. "I am sorry, nothing against your plot, but this type of RP is not what I enjoy". I am very certain non of us would ever force you to stay part of a plot you do not enjoy.

2. If you feel ignored (IN A PLOT) ask again. In many cases, especially if many players are involved or worse, groups split up, things easily get missed and there is no bad intention behind it. But if you answer 10 questions sent in DM channel and tell you are easily missing one.

Same goes for general questions into the DM channel. Please be aware though, that if our Dev-DM are on and in the middle of a test or something the like they may not even have the time to reply that they do not have the time because they need to have a very close eye on what they are testing.

lastly... if you feel there really is some personal grudge involved, approach another DM you feel you can trust. Living with that uncertainty will not do any good. Nor will to speak to everyone else and spread the fear.

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I hope that everyone will read and reflect on Amarice's post. It's one of those "this should be obvious" things, but it's very often forgotten, especially in the moment. This is a very good, important post.

I loved that post, Amarice. +X (X being whichever number you find sufficient to cover the awesomeness of the post and its contents +1).

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Profiles: DakoDako & ElWacko

Characters: Currently trying my best to stick to Beridoc Brushgale

I don't know a lot about any of this but it has felt like the overall negativity lately has driven some folk away. I've seen it happen in waves before.

That said... any nasty thing I have said I was purely about the actions (or ugly face) of your character. I'm perfectly nice folk behind the computer screen and I'm capable of having a lot of fun OOC while we butcher one another.

Let's take a page from Bob and others who have commented here and work to split the two up in our minds. I feel a lot of bad feelings arise from that lack of disconnect.

This post is exactly the kind of behaviour a DM should never exert on a player. You are pointing a finger at me, counterattacking instead of being understanding and commenting on the points I tried to present to you in my post.

Whether I am purposefully combative is beside the point, because that's really a matter of perspective. In my opinion, I am raising a very valid point you didn't address in your post. I understand we are all human and I don't seriously think that anyone would deliberately wish to harm anyone here. Nonetheless, people make mistakes and looking past them CAN be detrimental to communal growth. I am not entirely sure what mistakes you are referring to, I have been out of the picture for so long I have no clue what the big fuss is about. But you should be willing to discuss this matter with me and argue my points, if you disagree with them. I'm not implying that these mistakes, whatever you are referring to, couldn't be forgotten this time, there are times for that as well, but in almost all cases mistakes should be admitted, addressed and solved. You must take responsibility for them.

Let me try to explain you how I perceive Amia. Amia is a community like any other, it is important to people and these people are your people. Your job as the authority, i.e. DMs, of the community is to advocate and defend the interests of your people, us. You must realise your responsibility as the provider for these people, and frankly, instead of pressing flat my comment and saying I am part of the problem, you should try to meet me with understanding. This is part of your job. It's not always about what is fun and what is not; once you accept your role as the caretaker of the community, your job is not only fun and games. Naturally, uncomfortable situations can and should be part of the reason why you DM in the first place (you should enjoy the responsibility of being an authority and respect yourself for it), but you should also be able to deal with unpleasant situations with the player's interest ranking first and your own entertainment being only secondary. If you just want to have a bunch of fun and not talk politics with players, I don't see why you couldn't just be a content creator and player instead. (For the last sentence the "you" is used to refer to anyone in general, not you Bob.)

I assure you people, I am not being purposefully negative. I'm not being negative at all; if that conveys to you, it wasn't my intention. I'm trying to be constructive and instruct you in your DMing. I am trying to point out perfectly valid points the DM Team is not addressing here, as should be my right and as should be your job to firstly try to learn from it and secondly try to reason why it's not really a valid point at all and why it can be ignored. I think it is only useful and can't see the harm in it.

EDIT: Dammit, I'm such a dunce. For some reason I thought this whole time that Bob was a DM, I most deeply and humbly apologise! But I still stand behind what I said about the community, the role of DMs and making mistakes.

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Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill
All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person
I know you heard this and probably in fear
-Kendrick Lamar, good kid

Of course you take on more than just fun and games if you accept the "job" of a DM.

You gain priviledges and you accept duties and responsibilites.

One responsibility and duty is naturally to work with the community, to do best you can to aid, provide, entertain.

Several issues can cause conflict with this. Some are related to the players, some to the DM.

1. "defend the interests of your people"
The major issue here is that Amia has no "the people". Just as it has no "The DMs". Not all players have the same interests. Not all DM have the same interests. In the end it will always run down to either the majority of interests or a compromise most can live with.

2. "you should also be able to deal with unpleasant situations"
True. It is part of the job. However unpleasant situations and outward hostility, rudeness and personal insults is nothing anyone must accept. Neither DM nor player.

3. "player's interest ranking first and your own entertainment being only secondary"
That is partly true. An event just for the sake of your own enjoyment and everyone in it feeling uncomfortable is defeating the purpose. A plot should entertain the players first and foremost. It should however entertain the DM too. If the DM does not enjoy it aswell, it will be bound to end in poor quality. If a DM feels he cannot run the event that is wished, he/she should say it and ask another DM who enjoys this kind of RP more. Same for the Players... if they feel a plot is not to their liking they should leave it and involve themselves more in a plot to their liking instead of forcing themselves to "pull through" and complain and kill the enjoyment of others.

4. "Burnout"
We all have it. Players, DMs... sometimes it just gets too much. Your pet died, work/school is a hassle and god damnit then everything on your favorite game goes a way you hate too.
Stop.
Take a breath... take time off.
You help noone if you just log on in a sour mood and rant about everyone and everything. Then log onto the forums and search for posts you can comment on because "someone is wrong again".
And this goes for DMs as much as players. If you feel irritated about everything you experience and read it is time to take a step back and do something else for a while. Wait until you feel better, you are less stressed and half the things that sounded your alarms will not sound quite that terrible anymore then.

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As for personal dislike... this should not have a place anywhere of course. It may happen still. I trust all of our DM though to realize when they do not get along with someone to take a step back from anything regarding them if they feel they cannot be without bias.

This would mean:

Take a neutral stance in plot no matter if you like or dislike the person. In a request either be neutral or if you cannot, abstain from voting.

Mistakes:
It someone hit "below the belt" one should appologize. No matter whom.

Naturally, "I had a shit day" can never be an excuse. But it may, perhaps be an explanation alongside with an appology.

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Hey look, Opustus and Numbers! That must mean its old opinionated player time again. So I will take a chance to hopefully add somethings. Which can hopefully be constructive.







I Think that you have some good points here actually in that things should be said and discussed not through any haze of anger as it just obscures the real issues and gets in the way of actual improvement. That said some of what you said about issues passing certainly isnt always the case and it is important to be able to tell when or if a legitimate concern is being voiced, in fact even regardless of anger on their side since even if angry if they have an actual issue then not dealing with it simply because they might have been a jerk likely willonly make things worse, whereas looking past the emotion at what the cause is will generally help.

The "Nor will to speak to everyone else and spread fear" comment does worry me though (in its phrasing) just in how some could take it as it gives off the impression that voicing some disenting opinion publicly is somehow wrong or serves only to cause fear, which simply isnt the case many times. The thing is you generally only have this happen if you have people feeling that they have NO DM or person of authority to speak to because none of them acurately represent their beliefs of ideas as players. Now part of this can come from Just losing diversity on teams which is an easy thing to happen but should be rectified if it does even if it means adding members to the team who you might actually often disagree with, which is fine, the important thing is that they would make a good DM and to make sure all players feel theyhave some "representative" of sorts on the team they can turn to.

A lot of the time it can be made worse by the team on Amia wanting to show a unified front when in comes to decisions which can be good, but if a DM has a differing personal opinion they should always feel like they are free to express it freely, as they should be able to do so while still backing an offical stance (that they might disagree with) since it has the majority favour.

Most DMs are quite happy to listen, but if you have fundemental difference in opinion then turning to them in hopes of properly representing your opinions is tough because even if they really do want to if you cant connect with them then its almost impossible for them to understand and then be able to convey and represent your concerns properly.


Hopefully can pull some constructive things from my ramblings, Amia for its faults is a good server with people who care about it (sometimes maybe a little too personally) and anything it can do to improve itself and thrive is a good thing as there are increasingly few things quite like It.

No, that is exactly not what I meant. Voicing it directly (be it in public or to a DM) is good. What I spoke of is voicing it only in tells/PMs to other people telling "how mean" "How unfair" "how tyrannical" "how awful" someone or something is. This serves no purpose and does not help anything or anyone, but spinns the rumor mill and it never reaches any point where things can be addressed and changed.

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I am about 95% certain this was not intended as a snipe. Still, it felt like one on first read through.

My response? I understand English isn't first language for most people here, but please think about what you are going to write and how you address people. I just spent 20 minutes crying about the fact that Spock is dead, and I could easily have turned this into a chewout sesh. Instead I'm just going to make my point and then go away.

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

Thank you for posting this, Amarice. It's nice to see! It's been awhile since I saw this sort of acknowledgment of levels of higher responsibility. What I really hope happens, and one of the biggest parts of my vague points and implications, is that you all initiate some system of DM to DM accountability. That sort of thing fell away from the Team when Disco and Nekhy stepped back. No one disciplined improper DM actions or forced DMs to acknowledge their responsibility in a situation. I was so discouraged and hurt by the lack of advocacy by my DMs, who claimed they were there for me, that I left this server for years. It felt like a betrayal of power and basic human respect. I still struggle to respect some of the Team decisions when a DM is not publicly checked in their mistakes. No one had my back, and while some people apologized eventually, it still sucks to think about how much faith I had and how much I defended people year after year only to be treated the way I was. (I don't think you were a DM yet!)

I think this sort of thing happened to others, too. And it is why I think the server culture struggles from "us and them" syndrome to this day. I think of that quote "With great power comes great responsibility." Even if it's a dramatic interpretation, it is important to remember. A DM acting irresponsibly is drastically more damaging to the community than a player, regardless of why or how. It doesn't have to be a shameful or embarrassing thing to discipline your fellow DM. You all should expect it- you should want to hold each other accountable, I think. It shouldn't be something any DM is scared of... It should just be something that is done, if someone steps out of line, similar and yet different from how players are dealt with. Obviously I have very clear ideas on this all and have thought about it a lot... But I'm waiting to see what is presented to everyone! Patiently. I'm trying to be patient!

I'm just really hoping that is a part of what is presented. I think it may be the only way to reassure a damaged playerbase that it can trust the powers that be again.

Sorry if you took it negatively, I meant it only as I compliment and was mostly using it to poke fun at myself for falling into that category.

edit:

Like I said, I didn't upon analysis, just my initial response. We cool.

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

@Estara

I don't think it's a secret that the reason I left the server for a few years was over run-ins with DMs I considered to have been acting inappropriately toward other players. They were straight out being assholes for no reasons other than personal bias and clique defending. I'm generally a live and let live kind of person and I don't hold grudges, but it still does irk me when I see people praising those old DMs on the forums.

So, you're right, a DM acting irresponsibly without any accountability can be very damaging to the community.

That being said.... I think the current Team is waaaaaaaaaay better at PR than some of the DMs I've seen in the past. Sure, they have their moments just like we all do, but I've never seen them come off as outright disrespectful the way DMs did in the past. I think the furthest I've seen them go is dismissive, which is pretty impressive when you consider how often things get heated on the forums.

I've had my fair share of disagreements with the Team (just look at Krin's alignment change request), but I trust them not to be total A-holes the way old DM teams were. We're all just people. I think the people on the Team have the best interests of the server at heart and are trying to stay true to the path the playerbase seems to have been pushing for in recent years.

I think we're in good hands.

^^ I did not in any way intend to accuse the current Team for doing that or driving me to leave currently! Or to derail the thread into anyone else doing that. I was really just trying to say "Thanks!" to Amarice and point out that she really homed in on something I was trying to hint at for awhile, and something that I think really deserves some more extrapolation and exploration. If it came off as any sort of DM hate, I apologize. That was not the intent!

I think I got the topic sidetracked by having to explain myself too carefully to be understood.

Amarice, I agree with your post, although in-game DMing provides a helplessly narrow scope to adequately inspect the responsibilities and duties of a DM. It is also something far more intangible; the importance of communities cannot be valued in the service they provide, the RP in this case being the service and you providing it by DMing. Everything revolving around it, the socialising, what it means to the individual to be part of the social collective and escape into the land of fantasy, is the essence of it -- the good stuff that, in the end, is the only meaningful experience. For each and every one of us this experience may be a different one, which makes the responsibility exceedingly difficult to fully understand and impossible to carry out perfectly. RP itself may be completely secondary, although it undeniably engenders a large portion of the good stuff for our community. The analog of RP being the service and you being the provider isn't bulletproof, but bear with it. But I think you used in-game DMing more as an example than an attempt to provide a holistic view on DMing.

If we go back to square one, I only meant to say that I absolutely disagree with the fundamental point of Bob's post that people would only ever mean well. It seems to stipulate that people would always reflect upon their decisions from the point of view of what is best for everyone.

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Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill
All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person
I know you heard this and probably in fear
-Kendrick Lamar, good kid

I think Square One is actually labelled 'Have Fun'. I'd argue number 2, is labelled 'Don't take things so seriously'.

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

I agree that we are all here to "have fun" but as some peoples "fun" can be caustic to other peoples "fun" I think that contrary to "don't take things so seriously" I think we have to take each other very seriously.

I mean that in several contexts, I'm not an Oxford lecturer so I will try to explain my full meaning as best I can and hope that readers can see where I am going.

1.) Using our real life time in Amia removes that time away from other things like rl face to face friends, family and so on so time here for each player's time here is and should be important and thus treated with respect by the player him/herself and other players.

1a.) Whilst some player will have hours of idle time to pass away here other will sometimes have much less time and so as a rule as we can't know each persons specifics of the bat, to treat their time and yours with respect.

2.) As a role player environment Amia must have and does have a rules and lore framework to which all players must agree, this is serious and should be treated with serious consideration and respect by all players at all times.

2a.) Since coming back I have seen far to much ooc chat and quite often bleed over into ic chat and I have caught myself doing it at times even though I make a determined effort not to. For example I see a lot of glib banter type comments being passed back and forth by heavily armed complete strangers who have just met for the very first time in a forest infested with shape shifters...Yes some characters are just going to be over familiar dicks from minute one but I feel we could all do with taking a moment before typing ICly some glib retort, is it us the player wanting a bit of text kudos for being witty or is it genuinely the character and the sort of thing they would say.

2b.) I guess what I'm driving at is that to much ooc/party chat breaks immersion and its very easy then to slip into stand up comedy mode where ever possible witticism opportunity has to be grasped regardless of IC circumstances, like the death of a party member to a death based spell, which failed to elicit any serious action on the survivors but to make some petty or irrelevant witty comment (often on the back of ooc party chat banter)

2c.) I've generally enjoyed my return to Amia with some notable exceptions which touch on 2a/2b whereby there have been several characters who for absolutely no IC reason at all start kicking off abusing party members.
The reason I mention this in its own subsection is that its not been friendly ooc banter spill over or friendly IC banter but just completely unprovoked random hostility then being ooc put out that from that moment on the party or certain party members refuse to use their arcane or divine magics to enhance that character or if not casters refuse to assist them when they later get into trouble.
Of course ~some~ characters will be the orphan schizophrenic, bipolar, eating disorder emo, however not only is this a tired justification for this sort of hard to believe rp I feel most times its just a certain mindset of player wanting his/her cake and still be able to eat it. Or in other words be nasty/chaotic/evil blah blah blah but still be able to get all of the mechanical benefits other characters have to offer yet giving every IC reason why they should be giving an IC kicking.
Whilst hiding behind pvp rules protections.

3.) This all comes back to respecting other players and their time, and respecting yourself and your time.
I am determined to take a moments pause whenever I'm about to emote or RP and consider if that is what my character would really say or am I the player just getting carried away with making a witty comment that is more or less completely contrary and irrelevant to the character and actually breaking character.

4.) I am determined to "have fun" whilst doing my utmost to take "seriously" how my "fun" impacts on other players "fun" and always strive for excellent in having my own "fun" in a cooperative experience with other players to boost my own and their "fun"

5.) To that end in the spirit of my wall of waffling and meandering text I invite any who rp with me over any reasonably long length of time to contact me via private message if they wish to politely and constructively critique (or shock even compliment!) me on my rp without prejudice.

6.) Overall it really is good to be back!

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Æ special character = ALT+0198

Party chat filtered, RP or it didn’t happen

I hate to be an ass, but you took y comment way too seriously. I have fairly limited time, and I just seek action where I can find it. If a scene is going too slowly for me, i bow out and find something that isn't., or go do something else. At the end of the day this is a game that we all plough our time into. And the minute you take it as more than something that you choose to spend time on, because it's fun for you and your associates, is the moment when stuff starts to get distorted.

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?