AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Rule Discussion (from "A Reminder") Opinions Only

A bit of both, Terallis. Yes, I grabbed them for an example - and I grabbed them because they are rare and lore heavy, so generally meet the criteria I mentioned of a "Red". But nothing about it has been decided for certain at this point. Not even with white-skinned Chultans!

I'm well-aware it's only an example. It was a specific discussion I was privy to and adamantly stood against when I was a member of the staff. But it's one of many, and importantly, it's in a direction that is antithetical to what so many have expressed their concerns about.

But it's an example that is important to drive home. Never before have evil elves needed to be lore-checked to ensure that they know their place and effects on society. And the recruitment for Eldreth Veluuthra may be specific, but the history of a character (Especially an Elven character) before Amia allows for ample room, previously, to expand upon your story to include such methods.

The one and only reason why Eldreth Veluuthra, as an example, would ever need to be requested, is because an already extremely well-developed NPC cadre of the faction are present in Winya, and in order to play as Eldreth Veluuthra, one would need to be familiar with them. But even then, you could find ways that a request isn't necessary. Such as In-game recruitment, even.

Yes, it's an example. But it's a serious example of how this opportunity to remodel the request thread can flip and extend far beyond the parameters we had hoped for-- to the point where it becomes further detrimental and against the wishes of players who have taken a great, apparent risk to voicing their opinion here.

Just as a sidenote, eldreth and evil elf are two very different things. Anyone can play an evil elf. Eldreth are a special organization where only approximately 100 over all of faerun exist. Additional to that, they have special restrictions, especially when or comes to Divine classes.

Playing an evil elf, or an elf with a similar mindset is perfectly fine (if unusual) and requires nothing at all. Being an official member of such a tiny organization is a little more complicated.

Hackums: I'm not being snarky here, I just want some clarification as to what you're talking about... are you saying that any player should be able to create an Eldreth Veluuthra agent regardless of whether they have put any thought into their backstory or not? It sounds like you're implying that the lore that exists is irrelevant and unnecessary.

I think what Hackums may be getting at is that it seems clear to him that some decisions aren't being based on the apparent (is the Eldreth lore even apparent?) lore or not and maybe are being pushed through by DMs with an agenda. Which, sadly can happen and has happened before. The lore is obviously important to Hackums- someone who was a DM, but the point I see him making is that it is only DMs who are deciding what is red light and it could be even worse than it is now if certain DMs make that decision alone... And my little add is that I'm concerned if the player base is not included in that discussion, Letum!

-- forgive me if I got it wrong, Hackums, but I thought I'd try to help you breathe!

I support your sentiments and I was always very proud of how you stood on a player's side. This in no way represents my own opinions, as I am attempting to keep my radicalism out of public view for now. I'm just stepping in to assist!

I like the suggestion, Letum. Personally, I think creating a bunch of subforums is going in the wrong direction as that compartmentalizes things a little too much and you're going to have to deal with players not knowing exactly where to put their request, like not knowing what will or will not require scripting, for example. A better approach may just be to create a sticky that gets updated every now and again when the team receives a new type of request that gets whatever traffic light color they feel it needs. That way when a player has a request they want to make, all they need to do is look at that sticky and can figure out what to do.

The other benefit this provides is allowing the DM Team to explain WHY the request is in the status it is in, which is important, as you can see in this very thread. Hackums has some big questions about this elven faction being red-lighted. I don't even know what they are. If the response is "because we want to make sure that people know the lore", the better approach to that would be to create a lore package on the agency, put it in the Announcements section or wherever, and have the information openly available for players who are interested so that they can do their own research and then start play without going through the hassle of the request process. Then the DM Team can just monitor the situation and correct the few players who may do things in a bit of a different way. Because, let's face it...even if the player gets the request approved, they are only a little bit more likely to play the straight and narrow than the player who does their own research that the DM Team provides. You may wind up with the same problems that need correcting either way, so better to go with the approach that gives the players a little more freedom and reduces your workload overall.

That should probably be the ideal approach to anything you yellow or redlight, btw. Even the ones you do so because you want to make them suitably "rare". Fact is, the playerbase is kinda small, anyway, and when you consider the fact that PCs are by and large the exceptions to the norm, well...it remains rare by default.

Estara wrote:

I think what Hackums may be getting at is that it seems clear to him that some decisions aren't being based on the apparent (is the Eldreth lore even apparent?) lore or not and maybe are being pushed through by DMs with an agenda. Which, sadly can happen and has happened before. The lore is obviously important to Hackums- someone who was a DM, but the point I see him making is that it is only DMs who are deciding what is red light and it could be even worse than it is now if certain DMs make that decision alone... And my little add is that I'm concerned if the player base is not included in that discussion, Letum!

I totally agree that the decision as to what is lore appropriate and what is not should be made and vetted by individuals who are very well-versed in it. I also agree that the strictures should not be overwhelmingly restrictive. But there should definitely still be some sort of requirement. There has to be at least some consistency between characters that share a background as specific as the Eldreth Veluuthra, for example.

(THIS IS A JOKE) I really can't agree with any process (or lack of process) that results in people publicly swearing allegiance to "ol' King Veluuthra" and demanding "Elven Pride Day." (/THIS IS A JOKE)

I would be sleeping right now if my bed stuff was dry, so this is going to be very short and rambling. Not because I don't care, but because I am out of brain.

On Player input and discussion: that's why I posted it. Otherwise I'd have hided it away and then released it when it was finished, laughing all the way to the authority bank. (???)

On Lore/the Why: see the last part of my post about the idea - it's meant to work in conjunction with lore and information provided and readily accessible. Also, I am hugely about the Why. Of course that'll be added. I'm that asshole that used to fight with the DMs over needing to understand things - not for the sake of fighting, but because it's just how my brain works. It refuses to let something go if I don't "get" it, even if I no longer care about it going my way. It's why I proudly bear the title of being pedantic from Sune. I'm sure you remember, Yoss. Don't think there wouldn't be ample over-explanation of everything on any list that I write. (When it's not just a quick example for the sake of showing a model, anyway.)

Yup the why will be there. I would quote the 3.5 lore sources about the Eldreth right now but I am not home. Best source however is "Champions of Ruin" page 78 onwards.

Again in either way, this has nothing to do with it being forbidden to play evil elves or elves who want to kill other races etc. etc. and act akin to the Eldreth (though as I said keep in mind this indeed is a rare thing). The Eldreth Veluuthra are just a very small, quite unique organisation which has restrictions in joining and consequences in breaking their vows aswell as a rather low number. Anyways... if it is really wanted I will gladly provide the quotes of the sourcebook, once I am home and have access.

Oh, I know, Letum. Consider what I said directed to ears not so easily convinced of the need to o/` let it goooo, let it goooo~ o/` a little bit.

Perhaps you agree because you have yet to disagree, Council, but that still was not the point (or Hackums point, perhaps). It was about how small the control is and how much bias may be involved in that decision-making ... Thank you for posting, Letum, and I did not mean to imply that you were on your way to the power bank or anything else. I hope you know that! You are the best DM I have encountered on the topic of transparency and it is noticed, hopefully by more than me! That does not mean all your colleagues do so.

What is being pointed out here does not seem to be a ragefest that DMs suck and can't be lore appropriate, but a huge coming together of people noticing mixed messages on both sides of a widening divide. At least that's what it seems like, considering DM and player responses alike! Once again, it is not my opinion really, but only my (wimpy) attempt at clarifying Hackums stance, which I feel is important so that he can feel supported by the community in whatever way possible.

Anyways, I hope you consider Hackums and Yossarin, and once again there's a PSA here at the end that these are not my opinions! They really aren't. I'm just trying to keep certain people from feeling unsupported publicly. Dissenting people often feel frustrated and give up before their points are considered valid, even if they may be ahead of the curve. I've been one of them myself.

Edit: I just loled at that, Yoss. Adele Nazeem ftw.

I slept on this to make sure I wasn't being rash but I'll kindly remind certain posters that I said from the get-go (see 2nd post of the topic) that anyone being sassy, rude or snarky will be getting a cool down ban.

This is an opinion topic, not an "I presume to speak for every player" topic and does not require emotional grandstanding. It is also intended for people who still play here, not for people who just want to give out a piece of their mind about why they left and why we're the devil. The only reason I can think of that someone would come back with the pretense of speaking for others after they have decided to never come back is to stir the pot.

People are well and able to politely discuss their opinions without someone opting to speak for them.

Now, I'm going to work and if I come back and still see people inciting outrage and bile in the community because they can't control their emotions or anger and want people to join them, I'm going to deliver some cool downs and see if we can get some fresh opinions from the current community so the discussion can move forward. There is no reason people should be feeling bullied into not posting because they cannot contend with the more vocal and eloquent members of our community with big opinions.

Tldr; cool it on the outrage and inciting nature of these posts, especially if you no longer play here, or I'll be issuing cool downs because you are incapable of cooling yourself down.

Or the pretense of those having left giving their feeback is a hope the server they love(d) might come back. If you do not care why people are leaving, with people who have left offering the same reason, then that does not bode well. Though it does reaffirm my decision to do so.

And to end it on a snarky note, simply because I find that just as post uncalled for, you as my benovolent dictator can now ban me. Though perhaps a temporary ban would also be suitable for you, given the accusative and quite offensive tone of your own post.

I felt much the same way as Pony when I read that last comment. The people who are voicing their opinions, unpleasant though they may be, were players and still have the potential to be players again. Some may not be as constructive as one might hope, but encouraging them to be constructive by asking questions and trying to get to the bottom of the problem before threatening with bans may be a better approach.

Speaking as a Developer who does a good deal of work for the server, the smaller the playerbase gets, or the less it grows, the less impact I feel my work has. That's not a threat or anything, just a statement that indicates my personal feelings. On an even more personal level, I really want Amia to strive to be something those older players would be happy to come back to.

I strongly encourage a gentler touch. Any dictatorial approach is not being interpreted as benevolent, no matter the intent.

People are of course welcome to voice their opinions

I am not a veteran player by any standard and have not been around long enough to see the server move drasticly in one direction. I have for the majority of my time played one character who due his actions is isolated from most of the going ons on the server but I do enjoy the work I have put in and gotten help with as a player to develop the faction and my own character.

That being said I will agree with Bob's post as well because it hurts me to both see and hear that the discussion is carried in much different manners depending on the media used

I'll clarify something with a cooler head. While I'm unapologetic for my reactions, there's a nuanced point I'm trying to make that requires it. Thank you Estara, for more succinctly summarizing my intent while I took a breather.

I'm not upset in particular about the very specific example given. I'm also well-aware that it was just an example, and that by tackling as it had I undoubtedly detracted from Letum's intent. Which hurt me in some ways, because I think Letum is one of the most valuable DM's and happens to be tackling a very thorough issue at a very tempestuous time.

My visceral reaction was due to the reasons why the example given, less so on the actual example itself.

The restrictions that were on the table in this discussion were in regards to homebrew backstories, nobility, mechanical representation, and PnP emulation. The problem with the Eldreth Veluuthra example (Sorry Letum, I know I'm being picky), is that the underlying reasons for considering such a case are nowhere to be found in the above-mentioned rules. The reasons are that it is a small, exclusive, and counter-cultural faction that has a stricter lore set. You'd have to stretch that to include homebrew backstories. The regrettable fact of the matter is that Amarice, BoB, and Elven DM's observed Eldreth Veluuthra play, considered it not up to par or outside of the paradigm they wished to create, and then proceeded to attempt to restrict it instead.

As I've said before, as DM's you technically have the power to do these things. But I think these kinds of initiatives are a large slap to the face of current/previous players that chose to involve themselves in such efforts. The problem is that not only are these decisions being made on a basis of opinionated interpretations of lore in a restrictive fashion, but that players are largely unable to weigh their opinion-- whether on the forums or by demonstration in-game.

Councillor, you've brought up an age-old argument against liberal administration: While I argue for people's ability to play these factions, characters, etc with no-to-little lore, that doesn't mean that I encourage ignorance. I allow for it to happen, but instead of mandating a certain level of player knowledge, I prefer strategies that encourage it instead-- knowing and understanding that if a new player feels ignorant about a subject, he is far less willing to submit an examination (Request) than he is to experience it and learn via Rp and player cooperation.

All that being said, if the DM team is absolutely still interested in tightening RP quality around actual lore, then they should-- instead of mandating requests-- create accessible guides as Yossarin suggested. Previously, other staff members would know that I have stood against these as well. But that was because those particular cases, I felt, were less supported by lore, and more supported by heavy personal opinion.

If you create a guide that is anything but strict Amian homebrew, it must, must, must be strict to the letter of the lore.

Stricter to the lore or at least open to player input rather than just "this is what a couple of people say is the way to play it". The players are the ones playing whatever it is, and the ones having to suffer seeing examples of whatever it is that they do not like, and even though they are a varied group with differing opinions, some consensus can be reached, I'm sure.

Quote:

That being said I will agree with Bob's post as well because it hurts me to both see and hear that the discussion is carried in much different manners depending on the media used

If we're talking about other kinds of media, we're talking about a two-way street.

In regards of the Eldreth... it is not true tha I observed eldreth players and said "their RP is not good or good enough".

That I am of the opinion (and others too and not just DM) that this specific group is so special it should be requested to be an official member of I do not deny or make a secret out of and never have. That does however not mean that I try to force bend all elves into paragon CG elves. Or that I want to forbid people to play elves outside of the classical window. As I explained already, this particular group simply comes with very specific complications, restrictions and they have a very low number.

Whoah, hold up. Let's back up for a second. Sorry to contribute to derailment of thread, but - only 100 Eldreth Veluuthra members? What? Uh... Well, I was so confused by this that I went back to review the Eldreth Veluuthra entry in Champions of Ruin, which I had fully read in the past (even coming across that ridiculous lore-breakage of their ice lich). I couldn't find an exact number of Eldreth Veluuthra. But it does say that there are 20-30 cells (more specifically: it says 19, and then uses "several other cells" in two separate areas). That means, if there are only 100, that each cell has on average 3-5 members, with little room for standard deviation because such small numbers as they are can barely be considered cells. So I came back, double-checked the posts here. Nope, I didn't misread. DMs are saying they're rare and there's only 100. Champions of Ruin is the only source of lore I can find on this.

So... Can someone point me to the source, and explain to me how we're supposed to have known this? Or, was this just made up? I consider myself fairly lore-savvy, and pretty good at finding information. And I'm quite dilligent. Champions of Ruins has an extensive and detailed line-up, and I've gone through it twice now and not been able to find this "only 100" bit. I'm glad I stopped playing because I'd be pretty annoyed if despite my research I find now that I would've been expected to make a request.

Even if it is true I maintain that it's ridiculous: see above, my concerns about cell-size. Yeah, anyone can be an "evil elf"... but isn't that kind of boring? Why can't a group of human-hating elves just start it up on Amia (as has been done I believe) and just start calling itself that? It's a bit more interesting than just "we're elves who happen to be bigger assholes than you'd expect!" and given the cell-structure it's not like the Eldreth Veluuthra police will come knocking and tell them to do it right, they look pretty damn inclusive of people who actually carry out their ideals.

Honestly though much of Eldreth Veluuthra lore appears to have been written in error, which is a shame because it's a pretty cool idea and totally makes sense for the setting. But like, they have this whole thing about a special NPC, an ice druid lich who doesn't need to worship a deity to get divine power, apparently. They also defy the one-step rule by suggesting that no members of the Seldarine grant power to EV members - even though there are neutral gods in that pantheon who by that rule /would/ grant divine spells to evil PCs. Special exception for 100 snowflakes? Sure, why not.

Broldi wrote:

This current team denies it, but it doesn't like evil. I know this because there's no lasting evil faction. None at all with DM backing.

This is a huge issue, and has been for some time now. I've toyed with the idea of playing evil (aside from the semi-cloistered UD; which is prone to getting overrun by the Good Guy ROFLstomp bulldozer at any point) but I figure why bother. I've seen Evil get ROFLstomped time and time again, with DM support. How the heck can Evil really get a foothold like that? And yes, there's Tarkuul and a few others but, really, they can't cater to everything as they are.

LL and Ama: I love seeing this. Having the state of Requests revamped is going to do wonders for things. And I love the proposed system/idea so far.

BoB: What Pony and Yoss said.

According to Lords of Darkness (page 100) The Eldreth Veluuthra has about 100 members. Something that limited should be a request only thing, seriously if you want to play a fey'ri you must request it and they only have half of the number of the Eldreth Veluunthra, they are a extreme minority in elven culture.

They should of been request to begin with honest

Broldi wrote:

This current team denies it, but it doesn't like evil. I know this because there's no lasting evil faction. None at all with DM backing.

My Aurilites had plenty backup from me.

Last edited by Pony on Thu, Feb 05 2015, 18:47 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I just wish to be clear I think of BoB very highly as a person. That the comments are directed at the situation, the way it is handled, and based because of my desire for the situation to be improved and a solution found. In no way would I ever condone badmouthing or vilifying the DMs on a personal level, or anyone else involved in this discussion. That of course does not change that I feel very much that there needs to be a change.

Well, you can vilify Yossarin of course. But that is the exception. :wink:

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Broldi wrote:

This current team denies it, but it doesn't like evil. I know this because there's no lasting evil faction. None at all with DM backing.

My Aurilites had plenty backup from me.

Evil brews and simmers indeed.

Whos to say they wont rise up again

*SPOILERS!*

Oh cute, a retcon. With less lore than the other entry. At least they got rid of Lossarwyn. I actually looked in LoD but I didn't think to look in "minor organisations" so I missed it.

That said, players are better served simply not going through the trouble of requesting official Eldreth Veluuthra membership. It's simply not worth the trouble. It's pretty damn easy to pick up a sword, gather your mates, declare hatred for humans and drow and go at it. Call yourself Eldreth Veluuthra. The "real" organisation would actually applaud it. What does requesting official membership do for you? There's no special training, the hierarchy is too loose for a PC to get any real power, and the ideals are all basically there for any PC to freely adopt.

serbiris wrote:

Oh cute, a retcon. With less lore than the other entry. At least they got rid of Lossarwyn. I actually looked in LoD but I didn't think to look in "minor organisations" so I missed it.

That said, players are better served simply not going through the trouble of requesting official Eldreth Veluuthra membership. It's simply not worth the trouble. It's pretty damn easy to pick up a sword, gather your mates, declare hatred for humans and drow and go at it. Call yourself Eldreth Veluuthra. The "real" organisation would actually applaud it. What does requesting official membership do for you? There's no special training, the hierarchy is too loose for a PC to get any real power, and the ideals are all basically there for any PC to freely adopt.

then your not playing a elf correctly since there normal alignment is Chaotic good, what you described is a drow, they are the evil elves of faerun

In all honesty, I've seen the "we need more good elves" line pushed when I saw a fairly cool concept requested. An avariel who, scared of their own mortality and the loss of his wings due to foolishness in his young age, was trying to become a pale master. The concept was rejected because "most elves are already evil and eldreth veluthra already and we're tired of seeing evil elves", and the DMs didn't like the idea of an avariel not being a racial paragon and instead being played as a character.

I've seen that problem in a few well written requests as well, with well thought out concepts. The reasoning was always very poorly articulated (if even thought out) and it equated to "We don't want to see a thing like that." without actually saying "We don't want to see a thing like that."

I previously had no stake in this horse, or interest in the topic of this thread but then I recalled that I've seen some interesting things flatly rejected for reasons that were poorly thought out when the team wasn't willing to just say "we don't like it."

And as to this:

Broldi wrote:

This current team denies it, but it doesn't like evil. I know this because there's no lasting evil faction. None at all with DM backing.

Gerald is the only sort of evil on amia that survives on amia. Small, useless, mostly beneficial to the people he works with and occasionally manipulative evil. He has goals that won't come to fruition and the "Evil faction" he led ended up functioning like a Lawful Neutral group in its role.

Amia is a server without conflict because amia refuses to allow conflict to be a thing. This is not the sole fault of the team, but also one of a player base that hates "losing" and refuses to admit that role playing should come with consequences when those consequences approach them. I've endeavored to allow my character to be susceptible to the repercussions of his actions because at the end of the day if all of my actions lead to only positive outcomes for me, I'm just masturbating. There's no role left for me, or anyone else to play because everything went so great.

That's a tangent though, and I think the state of conflict and strife deserves its own post. I have been wanting to write one but every time I think of the flaming it (and this post as well) will get I just get sleepy and hungry and stop writing. But the long and short of this last part is this:

Everyone on amia hates conflict and makes a point of hating the other player oocly when they lose. I've tried to be different when I recognized myself doing it once, and it would drastically increase the quality of the server if you all changed that about yourselves too. Be it PvP or DM plots, do not rage when you are losing. Role playing will happen either way.

Naivatkal wrote:

Broldi wrote:

This current team denies it, but it doesn't like evil. I know this because there's no lasting evil faction. None at all with DM backing.

This is a huge issue, and has been for some time now. I've toyed with the idea of playing evil (aside from the semi-cloistered UD; which is prone to getting overrun by the Good Guy ROFLstomp bulldozer at any point) but I figure why bother. I've seen Evil get ROFLstomped time and time again, with DM support. How the heck can Evil really get a foothold like that? And yes, there's Tarkuul and a few others but, really, they can't cater to everything as they are.

LL and Ama: I love seeing this. Having the state of Requests revamped is going to do wonders for things. And I love the proposed system/idea so far.

BoB: What Pony and Yoss said.

I'm the broken record now to some. But we're proof of this. Tried to be evil, cause conflict. We won, was our mistake. We got banned on a minor offense ( after the warning was revoked in favor of a perma ban). Sad part, we didn't know we used the exploit. We're not really sure why we were banned exactly (the official reason), but the hate of evil RP makes the most sense to me.

Also #rememberthethayans

True, you can do that. And who knows, maybe the true Eldreth will actually notice and give you an invitation?

They do, afterall, watch potential new members a while forst before official taking them in due to their paranoia of having been infiltrated before.

Of course, the other PC an NPC may react aswell and disapprove.

In either way just because it starts as something non requested does not mean it has to be boring, by far.

My most loved character which is very special to me, started as a very plain, "boring" human druid afterall.

Naivatkal wrote:

And yes, there's Tarkuul and a few others but, really, they can't cater to everything as they are.

I'm going to be honest here and say that if Tarkuul were actually an evil faction I would have stayed there. It's sort of just a neutered, conflict-less LN city that has a history of both the player base and DM there refusing to do anything but role play long winded forum posts to each other via pm about their esoteric lore and give characters who have contributed relatively little to the game or narrative of the server items marked "godly".

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Everyone on amia hates conflict and makes a point of hating the other player oocly when they lose.

Speak for yourself please. You may think this is the case, but in reality, it is not.

Zaldra5 wrote:

serbiris wrote:

Oh cute, a retcon. With less lore than the other entry. At least they got rid of Lossarwyn. I actually looked in LoD but I didn't think to look in "minor organisations" so I missed it.

That said, players are better served simply not going through the trouble of requesting official Eldreth Veluuthra membership. It's simply not worth the trouble. It's pretty damn easy to pick up a sword, gather your mates, declare hatred for humans and drow and go at it. Call yourself Eldreth Veluuthra. The "real" organisation would actually applaud it. What does requesting official membership do for you? There's no special training, the hierarchy is too loose for a PC to get any real power, and the ideals are all basically there for any PC to freely adopt.

then your not playing a elf correctly since there normal alignment is Chaotic good, what you described is a drow, they are the evil elves of faerun

I'm glad you said that. See, the default PC is "an adventurer". This is, by the guidelines set down in the Player's Handbook, "an exception to the norm". Why, instead of living a normal life, they're venturing out into danger! Why would any sane person even do that? Well, one reason could be that due to being born with a dark heart, as some people are in this game, they don't feel comfortable at home among their Usually Chaotic Good brethren (NB: Wood elves are Usually Neutral). That is not to say all elven PCs should be evil, but the incidence of evil among adventurers is much more likely - and given the small sample size of PCs being created in a given setting, does not represent a significant deviation from the stated core rules.

So no, you're quite wrong about that.

Last edited by Magiros on Thu, Feb 05 2015, 19:11 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Zaldra5 wrote:

serbiris wrote:

Oh cute, a retcon. With less lore than the other entry. At least they got rid of Lossarwyn. I actually looked in LoD but I didn't think to look in "minor organisations" so I missed it.

That said, players are better served simply not going through the trouble of requesting official Eldreth Veluuthra membership. It's simply not worth the trouble. It's pretty damn easy to pick up a sword, gather your mates, declare hatred for humans and drow and go at it. Call yourself Eldreth Veluuthra. The "real" organisation would actually applaud it. What does requesting official membership do for you? There's no special training, the hierarchy is too loose for a PC to get any real power, and the ideals are all basically there for any PC to freely adopt.

then your not playing a elf correctly since there normal alignment is Chaotic good, what you described is a drow, they are the evil elves of faerun

Have to say I find your comment rather insulting. Just the idea of telling another player "You're not roleplaying correctly" is wrong in my opinion. While elven races, expect few, tend towards CG. There are plenty who are of other alignments. Just because something is most favored trade, does not mean everyone are the same. With your argumentation we could say you're playing your sun elf wrong if you did not pick a wizard. Just because it is the favored class of the said race.

And sometimes characters, even elf characters, have very good reasons to go to the opposite way. It does not mean that they disregard elven culture. It simply means that perhaps their hatred towards humans, dwarfs and other non-elven races is great enough to take any opportunity to take them down.

EDIT: Just to let readers know, I am not trying to insult anyone. Am just stating as to why that comment is wrong, in my opinion. And my apologies if I managed to offend any of the readers.

Kudark wrote:

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Everyone on amia hates conflict and makes a point of hating the other player oocly when they lose.

Speak for yourself please. You may think this is the case, but in reality, it is not.

You literally try to handwave every legitimate thing I post as a concern to the betterment of the server Kudark. Either say something constructive and make a point or don't respond to me please.

Okay my darlings, let's just ease down a bit.

As said... PC can be out of "norm". We are not policing alignment on humans, elves, dwarves, hin... (and any I am too lazy to list).

The Eldreth I listed as a special exception, not because of their race, but because of them being as said a small organisation with specific restrictions and limits (in divine classes and joining and so on).

Again.. 'snothing to do with polcing alignments for our standard races.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Amia is a server without conflict because amia refuses to allow conflict to be a thing. This is not the sole fault of the team, but also one of a player base that hates "losing" and refuses to admit that role playing should come with consequences when those consequences approach them.

This is so true.

As well, until there is a long-lasting source of open, DM-supported evil influence on Amia, the server will continue to stagnate.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Kudark wrote:

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Everyone on amia hates conflict and makes a point of hating the other player oocly when they lose.

Speak for yourself please. You may think this is the case, but in reality, it is not.

You literally try to handwave every legitimate thing I post as a concern to the betterment of the server Kudark. Either say something constructive and make a point or don't respond to me please.

Really? Show me this please. I may have made a comment or two, so what?
This is the GD forum, I can respond to anything here, and will, if I so desire.

In Amia I've experienced a lot of conflict. At one point my character was targeted by several characters and it caused conflict. At times my character stood up and spoke her mind and did not accept matters, creating conflict. Now my character is facing trial for past actions. And there is no need to be an actual evil evil character. You can be a character with different views than rest and create conflict through that.

I would say Amia does allow plenty of conflict. Difference is whether you're ready to take it on.

EDIT: And having played an evil character. I've actually had assistance from DM's to take on evil actions. They did not support when my character did not have the resources to carry out such actions.. But when he did, they supported and helped out.

Last edited by RaveN on Thu, Feb 05 2015, 19:18 PM, edited 1 time in total.

The only reason people hate conflict is either

A) The PvP rules.
B) There are people who want to fight but don't know how to lose.
C) The mechanics are simply unenjoyable.

Obviously griefing is a separate issue and doesn't apply. When I played my Banite I learned very quickly to "roll with it" when I lost. If others kept a cooler head, maybe it wouldn't disrupt the RP that ensues and might have a lasting impact on the development of the character. Even on cases where I've been illegally PvP'd, I usually keep my grievances as much to myself and report it to the DM's afterwards. There is simply nothing even worth complaining about while you're still in game. Just roll with it.

My earlier post kind of indicates the fall and eradication of mechanics on Amia. Feel how you want about PvP, but eh, I -personally- joined the server because I could create conflict RP. When the server changed, I no longer wanted to. Then I realized it was just a giant inn room.

Conflict was the lifeblood of the best times of this server. I see people praising Caraigh. That was riddled with conflict. The most fun I had was when I was doing something that split hairs with someone else. When everything is too cozy, it's boring and I might as well RP on the forums.

*couldn't resist*

And yeah some rules need a make over! Mind it is unlikely it can be done so everyone will always be happy.

Ok locking this now for the time being while I read through what has been said

Unlocked!

Now I want to see constructive postings which we all can work with, be it towards players or DMs.

Thanks for unlocking Amarice.

I've been busy lately so haven't had a chance to respond in what I wanted to say:

I greatly respect the DM team, some more than others, but I hope that's more the case that I simply haven't interacted with every single DM.

My only real issue simply comes down to the fact that rules seem to differ from DM to DM, for whatever reason. This can be seen from things about PnP spells to what needs requesting or what is fine without request.

Now the only solution I can see is, if a DM doesn't 100% know what the census is, why not just say "I'm not entirely sure, let me ask"? It's from these unwritten rules that have different voices, however when it comes down to forming a hard guideline like what's occurred here, of course people are going to be confused if they've been informed differently at times.

What it comes down to is simple: If a player needs help, a DM can help them. If a DM doesn't know something, clarify instead of confusing players.

Zaldra5 wrote:

then your not playing a elf correctly since there normal alignment is Chaotic good, what you described is a drow, they are the evil elves of faerun

That really hurts, Zaldra. I think that RP-policing mindsets like that are really bad for the server, be it from other players or even DMs handling requests.

Sure, elves may start out as good, but it doesn't mean they're being portrayed wrongly if they end up on a slightly different path. There's one critical factor here that should never be overlooked when it comes to character development, and that is change. Things happen in a character's life that can cause dramatic and significant changes on how they behave or view the world. It's entirely natural and believeable, in my opinion.

My wish is for players and DMs alike to take a step back and consider that when handling requests or trying to "judge" someones' RP like Zaldra did here. Just because an Elf may be evil, or an Avariel having walked the path of a Pale master, doesn't make their RP any less valid just because they're not at the time typically CG. That very same Avariel may have been born CG and lived a CG life up until a point. I think that if someone requests something out of the ordinary and can provide a believable story as to why they ended up that way, then it is completely fine.

I wish I could say I wasn't offended by your comment, Zaldra, but I really was.

Zaldra5 wrote:

then your not playing a elf correctly since there normal alignment is Chaotic good, what you described is a drow, they are the evil elves of faerun

I'm going to point that this is obviously a joke that went over everybody's heads.

Amarice:

In my opinion what could be done, is to help players get out of certain tight spots. For example: My character has now been stagnantly in a same spot for a long time. I've requested it being removed, but DM team felt differently. I keep playing her and nothing changes. It feels like I don't have power over my character nor knowing who she is even at times.

At times it feels like your actions don't matter. Regardless what is being done, nothing changes. Especially with Winya Ravana, thought, I am not so sure of it now that your working with the elves. So we will see what will happens.

It would be nice to be able to improve things IC through roleplaying, but then you see that something is being implemented on OOC basis. At times, to me, seemed like some certain groups get things done because they know certain people and get them implemented far faster.

At times I've been told that my character is heavy to interact with and as well been told by DM that she doesn't feel elf-like. I must admit that these kind of comments do not encourage to roleplay and have left me in a position that I try not to complain to DM's nor request much from them. But at the same time, I do not feel like I am doing justice to whom my character should be. Instead playing a shell of a character, of which I have no power over. I've rolled with punches a lot in DM events and with other players, but after doing it extensively, it gets very taxing. In my opinion, if you empower the player to influence the world and their paths, it allows more enjoyable roleplaying. NOTE to everyone, I am not saying that DM's are steamrolling or anything like that. I am saying that perhaps giving more room to move and information of the thing they are doing or investigating.

God-like NPC's that stand in your way and can't be touched. I would like them to be brought to levels where our characters can influence them.

Don't know if this helped at all, but please don't take it in an offensive way. My point is that perhaps emphasis could be placed on empowering the players.

Zaldra has a valid point, ESPECIALLY when you Consider, we are playing in a Specific setting, Faerun.

Amia is set in the setting of Forgotten Realms, the world of Faerun. Elves are in large a certain way there. Playing your own variant is within reason fair but understand that there is a pre-existing general way of playing Elves, and that way is most probably how Elven NPCs are going to be played

((I'm just guessing, I'm not the Dm to handle them though. ))

As for the Eldreth Veluuthra.. they are a very specific organization with very specific guidelines, modus operandi, and recruiting rules. Same goes for the Harpers, the Zhentarim, and a number of other organizations I'd be hard pressed to name off the top of my head.

@magiros. I actually cleared that one up for you. Thought I sent you a PM about that :-S if I did not I blame my mush brain due to moving stress. I sent you one now, at the very least!

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