Raise Dead isn't a hostile spell, though. In no way does it apply any form of hostile or negative effect on to another player.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

If I run up to a character, call their dead mother a whore and stick my middle finger at their romantic partner, I shouldn't be surprised if they want to smash my face in. If I show up after having no involvement in a battle, then attempt to raise the dead in front of their murderer, I shouldn't be surprised if they want to smash my face in.

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Exactly. Sure the raise itself is not offensive per se, but the after effect of having someone you most likely didn't want to be alive up and fighting again amounts to the same thing.

It's a pretty shitty excuse to instantly start PvP again without giving the PC an out, being a new scene and all.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

There should be an out, but it should be noted that out doesn't involve resurrecting the bodies, just as much as a "Ok, I'm leaving" when being called out for a fight is followed by you buffing.

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To be fair. I just read a long part of the conversation and it does seem like those players who initiate PVP are being made look like demons.

If you dont want pvp to be forced on you, then turn around and walk away. Has worked for my character at times. If you stay stating you dont want pvp, are you not trying to force your style of rp on them? Especially in a situation which most likely is very tense already. And I see no reason for the outs of pvp needing to be so fair that they let me go entirely. They are welcome to force me with them in IC option of "Come with us or die". There is an out of pvp, but not an out of the consequences that you placed your character in. At times those in pvp do not have the luxury of time, stalling to stay and wait till they are entirely outnumbered. It just ia the reality of it, they need to get into safe environment even if they won already. In Amia, by my observations, people are very eager to get involved in everything. At times to things they should leave to be.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

There is an out: don't tamper with the bodies and you get to walk. Or maybe you won't get to walk, but you won't get mechanically PvP'd. Just robbed, stabbed, tied up or something else. Wrong place, wrong time.

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Sion of Nimlith
Shadow Disciple

Yeah, there's a difference between "I should be able to avoid PvP" and "I should get what I want without having to PvP".

Mildly unrelated, but for all the bad things I've heard about the banites, my single encounter with them consisted of one of their patrols stumbling upon the aftermath of my failed attempt to solo the crag trolls (I was new). They cast Raise Dead on me, gave me a stern lecture about showing proper reverence for the might of Bane, and let me on my somewhat humbled way.

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Currently playing:
Aven Brinyflask
Safaya Dalai
Riyit
Chsera Hile

(Credits to Raua for the sprite, sauce -here-.)

This is correct, far as I can determine.


Bull's Strength is not a hostile spell, either. It's defensive, yes, but technically so is Raise Dead. Casting Bull's during hostilities opens you to attack; casting Raise should do the same, logically.


It's also pretty shitty if you come in and raise people without RPing. Goes both ways.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Raising Dead is a 10 minute ritual under normal circumstances. Scrolls being one thing that'd lower that amount of time, it still should be noted that if the corpse was being watched, the ones watching it could easily just come down on the ones raising by all reality, or being raised.

But how about this; instead of me complaining about how we need to chose something or do this or do that i just give my opinion on some rules for it.

-Guarding bodies cannot happen for more then ten minutes, you are expected to end PVP as fast as possible and forcing it to continue is not fair to the dead. Resolve RP using the bodies if able.
-The dead cannot remember an hour of time of IRL(In real life) time before death leading up to their demise, using info from this time is considered OOC information to the character and can be punished if done enough.
-The dead cannot in any way OOCly call for another aid, If someone just stumbles on the battle then it is fine, but calling people into PVP is considered OOC actions against another player.
-If you are killed in PVP the killer gets to decide to leave you alone, destroy the body( leaving clerics the only way to resurrect them with a DM agree's on an assassination or a 24 hour time dead), or even take the body hostage for later for up to 24 hours unless agreed upon.
-That said if a DM helps others to find a body(s) then that is fine but is considered now a DM event and should be rewarded for the time of both parties in some way. (I'm sorry I've had DM's just help someone i tossed in the ocean get right back up not soon after and I want a deterrent from it happening again; it wastes RP and time.)

Unrealistic expectation. Admittedly most conflicts should happen in this but if you have cases where bodies need to be transported (such as a kidnapping scenario) , then NWN doesn't readily offer the logistic to do so. Admittedly, OOC raises for the express purposes of having the person 'move' as a carried body could help this front somewhat, but it also needs to be kept in mind dependant on the nature of a skirmish. Assassinations can happen quickly but full on skirmishes can take longer, and AFKs do happen (Hopefully not during a battle!). The problem is, the pace of battle is in general the pace of battle , so perhaps just something requesting that resolution of what happens to the bodies as soon as possible would be a courtesy but hard to arbitrate as a rule.





This is kind of hard to arbitrate exactly but I understand what you're getting at, IIRC the new fugue plane PCs end up in has guidelines to help with but I cannot remember for certain, worth checking.



Pretty sure this is impliclty already a rule in place or if not, should come in with the new rules. Situations likely have happened where this seemed to take place but a valid reason had already existed for the PC to head in that direction. Also it is likely sometimes that the justifiable warrant for this rule, someone OOCly calling their buddies up has happened as well. If you believe there's evidence the second has happened, I'd say involve DMs and if you can, obtain screenies or get other players willing to talk with the DMs to speak with them as well.



This one's already a rule in place, pretty much.



Depending on the situation, if the person had got up where they were that is kind of goofy unless the resurrection was carried out there. If a True resurrection was carried out elsewhere then there's little to be done, and likely the target had a high enough profile to have the connections to get such attended, or had a friend.

If you feel unjustly treated from what happened by the DM's involvement, I'd advocate talking with them about it.

As far as I know/as the rules stand, any PnP spell details require consent from all parties, otherwise WYSIWYG. So no, Raise Dead does not take 10 minutes on Amia, it takes as long as it takes in game.

As for Raising warranting instant PvP, that would depend on the context; that there is PvP going on or that the bodies are being guarded must be obvious to the one doing the raising for it to warrant such reaction. If you want to initiate PvP in response to that, it should be your responsibility to make it clear before it happens. There are extremely few cases I can imagine where instant PvP would be necessary, anyway.

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IronAngel: Last time this happened to me the people puppy guarding the bodies were invisible or using Hips. All i saw was bodies.

Other cases this has come up I have seen, the people who were guarding bodies were there rather openly.

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Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

The current rules are not complex.. its really simple. I would rather not see them changed at all personally. I think maybe too much focus goes into the variables when the real focus of the rules is, "You must give the other party a reasonable chance to back down from the PvP In Character." That line right there IS the rule as far as i'm concerned, its 1 rule, everything else is just to clear up various situations and make sure everyone is on the same page. The rules as they are don't give you free pass to avoid conflict, but they do let you opt out of actually doing the PvP.

For an example lets go with a classic, Necromancer walking through the forest with an undead creature following it. Options?
1) Simply demand (firmly) the Undead be put to rest (Or else), if the Necromancer complies, leave it be. If he refuses, you are now free to attack.
Now lets say a Paladin was the one that saw this, or some other extra do good anti undead type.. option two.
2) Demand the Necromancer put the undead to rest and surrender himself for questioning at once or suffer divine wrath. If he refuses, you are now free to attack.
In this second example, the Necromancer does not get to avoid conflict. He was given a means to avoid PvP, but not to run free without consequences for his actions.

I don't understand where the issue is with the current rules. If while dealing with said Necromancer some busy body wanders by and decides to assist based upon a whim, he is now part of the conflict. "If you do not give the other party time to observe the usual protocol, you can't expect them to stick to the protocol." To me that means the new guy was not given time to partake in the RP, and thus is justified in lending aid as he sees fit. Now lets say this busy body raises the fallen Necro without giving me sufficient time to react? Well, that is another case for this rule and thus making both parties free game. Though less so for the Necro in this case.

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House Auvrea'Kan Crafts and Services is now open and prepared to discuss orders.

I don't think the rules we have used to date for PvP are necessarily complicated, Xenos. I do think however that they are not intuitive for people who have a small deficit in intuition and when so many players have so many questions and so much confusion over them...well, that should tell you something.

I've never found them particularly complicated, but then again all the rulings over them have varied and changed over the years and that probably confuses some of the people too. Although I do think the Team has gotten much better at transparency. That, kindness and the revamp will go a long way towards smoothing it over. Great work here Letum!

Sidenote: Just figured out that like three years ago I used them wrong OOCly in a situation but the only one who suffered was my character really! Sorry Tally!

Okay, if people are confused than they are confused. So how to make it less confusing? Well, i like the format Lux has set up for short and long answers. The current basic rules are the short, and the long could go into greater detail. Examples can be set forth as short stories. Flipping the table seems unneeded when at its core, the rules are good.

I am not sure about the DM intentions to the rules changing over the years, all i can say is how i translate them, if its true that PvP or be sacrificed was originally an acceptable 'out' than.. well to put it nicely, i strongly disagree. To be fair Draw steel or surrender might very well end up with you getting a sac.. *Shrugs* Drow are dicks. But i suppose if one can not manage to run away, then the Drow get their masturbatory fun time, the captured player is subject to creepy Drow fantasies for 24 hours(or more). But does that mean the player has to be there for it? For example, Yoss captures Mith and chains him to a wall, forcing him to listen to poetry. Do i actually have to be there as a player, or if the dread is too much for me to handle personally, can i opt to 'fade to black' and/or simply let you play with yourself?

The whole sacrifice thing is kinda meh to me anyway. Hey, i am 100% for it. Blood for the Blood God! But nobody wants to have their soul eaten.. and no god is pleased to accept a soul that will be pulled back likely. I mean, i'd think gods with a taste for the sac' would detest adventurers. Now, a tasty peasant girl kidnapped from the Cordorian farms during a raid? Mmm gimme. As a player the issue arises i would suppose, How do i RP my character not wanting to sacrifice your character, when normally s/he would? Best thing i can come up with on the fly is "You are not worthy". The whole PC sacing PC thing should really only happen if the victim puts themselves forth as willing. I mean is it really fun for anyone to go through the RP only for the victim to pop back up a day or two later? Making the whole thing rather null? Obviously some people WANT to play this kind of thing out from under the knife, more power to them!

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House Auvrea'Kan Crafts and Services is now open and prepared to discuss orders.

So I just found this thread and I'm the confusatory. What's the big deal with the present PvP rules as it is?

(Rhetorical question.)

Seems fairly straight forward and to the point. I read it as "Don't be an asshat." People do get fussy though. I've oft' wondered if PvP rules should have a segment at the bottom which says "Hey look, if you lost, we understand people get upset. So take a day away, avoid the person if you need, and then address any problems."

I mean heeeey, look at League of Legends and how people talk about it being one of the most toxic games out there. Is due to PvP on a mass scale. So people get uppity. That being said, a few posts ago was legit. Quite a few 6 wisdom / 6 cha power nuts running around which makes those who make sacrifices for RPness at a disadvantage. Though it's easy enough to walk away in those situations. Since you essentially have an out available to you.

Will likely be my only post in this thread, but thems my wisdom pieces.

-Gears

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Jinn Nibaru: Chultan Mercenary

Sephir Vezir: Luskan Soldier

The problem as I see it with Player vs Player in Amia (aside from the mechanical power building and the often poor token RP that goes hand in hand with such builders) is that quite often it is literally player vs player and not character vs character and its done to win rather than to create a good RP scene through collaboration.

On occasion I have had the pleasure to have some excellent combative RP that has been fully coordinated with all involved players though ooc messages/tells more or less making it a narrative reinforced with some dice rolling rather than going hostile and letting the best build win in defiance of the RP realities.

I would included it in the rules that all participants must remember and conduct themselves with a view to excellent RP not one sided broken build player vs player, on the understanding that players seeking to stroke their ego by ruining RP and believability with broken builds should not be here anyway.

Just my 50p worth.

Nat.

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Aggie Agetha War Knight (much to the chagrin of certain players and character )