Amia implements a cap of 5 levels on party level range, after which XP is no longer gained. Five years after the last big discussion about it, I think we can revisit the issue. Based on that discussion, I suggest we take another look at Didi's idea. There are other alternatives in the topic, and perhaps Xavi can revisit his weighted average idea, but I think this is the simplest and most effective solution:

Remove hard cap on party level range and base party XP calculation only on party members within 5 levels of the highest level. Lower levels count towards the party size cap but not the group's average level.

This eliminates opportunities for boosting, since the area must be challenging to the highest party member in order to be rewarded (just like it currently). To account for loot, you could block it entirely if the party is, say, 10+ levels out of range of eachother. With the new twinking rules, however, this is no longer necessary.

Why should this be done?
1. It makes it easier to find people to party with.
2. It ennables both playing with IC friends and reaching out to new people regardless of level.
3. Faction- or quest-based war parties, hunting groups, patrols etc. are possible and rewarding.

If you can think of a better model to calculate XP for a party with a wide level range, please share. I think two conditions ought to apply here, though: it should not be possible to boost lowbies unusually fast by clearing weak spawns quickly (such as running through trolls Wailing them), and it should not in general be more profitable to take along lowbies or epics for XP boosting purposes than it would be to fight in a party of your own level.

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I support this 1000%. I don't think we need to worry about loot drops, just using highest character in the party to determine xp might be useful too. I've seen that done on other servers, but here on Amia, 30's get 1 xp per kill, hmm... maybe the average is a better idea... I'm sure some formula can be calculated, but I'd like to see something like this implemented. Would be a huge boost to character retention and furthering roleplay.

Your reasons for doing this are spot on. Every. Single. One.

Wouldn't work I'm afraid. To reduce the drudgery of grinding the same dungeons over and over we've been gradually moving towards the bulk of the XP gained through running a dungeon, to come from the quest(s) for that dungeon, rather than from killing the mobs. So a higher level goes through and the group gains no XP from the mobs, but still thousands at a time from quests (depending on the level of the quest), and it's unbalanced.

Boss mobs also routinely have far higher CR than other mobs in the area, and even by basing it off the highest level character as you've suggested, would still provide superior amounts of XP. As we are moving to allow bosses to be spawned multiple times by the same character within a reset (just only giving epic loot chance once per reset) this would also prove to be a method of XP boosting with higher level chars beating the challenge of the boss mobs for people.

As for finding people, the next big scripting project on the queue is a complete overhaul of the party advertiser system, so I wouldn't worry about that part.

The first part is debatable, but not necessarily a problem. The goal should be to make people team up in groups to RP and complete quests. If people choose forego the challenge in favor of, well, doing it at all with anyone, there is no negative consequence (except the frustration of people missing out on the intended experience). I love the change in design direction there, though.

EDIT: Actually, the proposed change has no bearing on this issue. You could already do it, just forego XP from the spawns on the way. Quest rewards are individual, flat and once-per-character, aren't they? (Or if party ECL is calculated, you could drop party before finishing the quest, but that seems like abuse.)

As for the bosses, the XP would be exactly the same whether the high level character has lowbies with him or not. If a level 29 can get 200 XP every time he kills Maxi, his party of level 20s would also get that 200 XP, not more. How is this an issue and how does it differ from regular mobs? I may be missing something, but I do not understand this argument.

Any improvements to finding parties are welcome, but the long-standing issue is that you must check ECLs and exclude people from parties for purely OOC reasons, interrupting RP and segregating people. There needs to be some solution to that regardless.

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Glim, while I am just a player and I appreciate all the balls you as a DM need to juggle at once, I think you missed the biggest point.

People will powergame. No matter what, they will find a way to get xp faster than expected.

When my level 24 character can't explore with a level 17 they just met, IC how does that make sense? Sure, it prevents -some- people from powergaming -that- way, but, really, it just makes partying that much harder. A new advertiser isn't really the answer. Allowing a wider range for partying might be.

What if we made it +/- 10 levels? Or 15? That would eliminate much of the issues brought up about powergaming xp, but still offer a wider range of people to party with.

Again, I appreciate what you go through here, and I hate to contradict anyone on the team, but, in this case, I'm speaking out because I feel a fundamental aspect of a ROLEPLAY server is being ignored by having the party cap in the first place.

I have to voice my against on this. Even taking someone 5 levels lower until you're in epic is such a massive difference in ability its power leveling. Hell even 3 or 4 levels is pretty severe really. And adding one person 5 levels lower than you gives a ton more xp. So much I invite the lowest levels I can and reap the benefits.

Yes, you can go with a level 24 and a level 17- you just do not earn experience.

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

Yes, I stand corrected, I -could- go, but, let's be honest, when people go hunting, they're looking for xp. If I propose no one gets xp, you think that group will want me along? Not realistic in most instances. That said, I have done it many times, just for the fun and rp.

I just simply can't understand what the real issue here is. This is something I have NEVER seen anywhere but Amia. Therefore, it's an Amia invention. I played on plenty of servers where you could have all ranges of levels from 1 to 40 in a party. Sure, you might get a boost in xp, but, it's not normally that much to get all upset about. What I do see is, "Oh, damn, that guy I partied with yesterday is 6 levels away now, crap, gotta find a new hunting party now." and how does one address this IC? Without resorting to OOC? If we're truly a Roleplay first server, that means interaction among characters. This is restricting that, during an integral time in character development.

In the past when this has come up, it's always squashed, without much debate. I just don't know what everyone is so worried about? So a character gets to level 30 a few days faster? It's already quick, why make it painful? Why make people feel ostracized? We want to encourage new characters and players. What's the easiest way to turn off a new player? "Oh, sorry, I can't go with you because you'll get no xp, I'm out of range for you." I'd think if you hear that enough, and they will, that would be a huge deterrent. However, let's turn it around, "Hey, I'm new here, care to show me around?". "Sure, I have some time, maybe I could even teach you some fighting skills, mage skills, whatever, while we put it to practical use in the field?". That's much more appropriate than sending tells, trying to explain, making excuses for why we do this here, and in general trying to convince this new player that Amia is great when they're just about ready to quit. Why give such a huge negative impression right out of the gate?

Again, I say this: Amia invented this cap. It's not inherent in NWN, and I've never even seen it anywhere else. Surely, that's something to look at? We want to encourage roleplay, not deter it. This is without a doubt, in my opinion, a huge deterrent.

You just described the status quo, which the proposed change would do nothing to fix or make worse. If you invited someone 6 levels below you, their ECL would not be calculated and your XP would remain the same. You're apparently not talking about the proposed system?

The simple system works, there is no question about that. Any issues that might arise are issues that are already possible to varying degrees. Aside from personal ideological and moralistic notions, there is not much to object to. We should focus on concrete suggestions for tweaks or alternative systems which correct possible flaws.

Your last point is disingenuous. Game design is about incentivizing the kind of player behaviour you want to see. Given Amia is both an action game and an interactive story, the two sides of design must work towards the same end. If something is not worthwhile, it should rationally not be done. If we want players to disregard levels and other OOC factors in party formation and RP, we need to incentivize such behaviour. (And I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want that.)

I hope that this does not turn into an ideological discussion. This should be about numbers, practical issues, concrete solutions. The final system (if the original proposal isn't sufficient; I am not convinced that valid counter-arguments will be produced) can then be subjected to such ideological evaluation if the DMs so desire. We will never get to a solution if we can't even devise a prototype.

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No because as you grow in levels the xp comes in quicker. Because you can kill faster, with haste in better balanced pc's and parties. So you'll speed through abyss versus struggling through goblins or orcs when you only have 1-2 attacks per round. You'll have 5 with haste and just decimate populations. The xp gain is tremendously faster as a percent of your needed xp. A low level getting 50xp + per kill that it just can watch in invisibility is a bit to much. That's 300 or more per spawn. Just 10 spawns is 3k xp, A good group can clear the abyss in 15-20 minutes. I think there's 3-4 maps and about 10 spawns on each one or so. So thats about 10-12k xp in that time? Fine for someone who needs 28k , because they need 2-3 runs or 45 minutes. But the level 3, just got 10k experience and is now a level 5, nearly level 6.

These are pretty conservative I can with other well built peoples who are prepped well run through abyss starting late teens or 20s pretty quickly and rack up 60-70xp per kill.

Maybe if you capped the people outside of the magic within 5 levels of the highest level, you this could work. Some decided 20xp, a multiplication of their level (level x2), Or whatever the party is earning, maybe just the lesser of these. Idk.

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

A possible fix:

What if... we extended the ability to gain xp to level 30's. I mean, they can't really do anything with it, so what's the harm? Then, eliminate the party cap. Base the xp off of the highest level in a party. This way, abuses can be minimized, but, we still gain the benefits of wider level range in a party.

I could be wrong, but using this, I'd think it's beneficial to stay close in level range, but, not completely segregating. Therefore a 30 and a 2 go hunting. It's deadly for the 2, and the 30 doesn't gain any more than they would in that particular area, making it not really so easy to abuse. However, a 20 and a 10 go out, the 20 might still get decent xp, and so would the 10, making it appealing for them to party together.

It's just simpler, I would think.

I'm mixed about this as both sides have valid goals and points.

I fully understand people who are trying to increase in level not wanting to join a party where they cant gain exp, as then it just takes even longer to get in level range of the people they want to party with. So removing the level cap would counter that.

On the other hand leveling on amia is a joke if you do it logically and focus on exp per hour and not per kill, as a lot of people focus on the big numbers and fail to grasp that the slightly weaker monsters you kill more of quicker nets more exp and gold over time (gold that you use on pots/scrolls/magical use items to increase you even more) and people can get level 25 in a few days solo.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Sort of my point in a way Cory. If leveling is already so easy, why not remove the cap, and just let people play together.

While I do not find any fault with the scenario you presented (so what if XP comes in faster?), I had considered some kind of a cap on XP/kill with other possible systems. (Like one based on average ECL but lowering the XP/kill cap for every level that the party is apart.) It could be implemented on this solution easily enough, though I never thought the different rate of XP gain would be a problem since XP required for next level only increases linearily.

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There is and has been much work now put in by the Dev team to look at dungeons and xp-gain. While the proposals here are interesting I do not see the point that the team should drop the work they are doing to look at this.

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

Feel free to keep ideas coming, but, please understand that many of them will have very little, if not any, bearing on the direction of the present project. Once it is done and in place, then we can revisit the topic.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

I'm not talking about xp gain. I'm talking about segregating characters based on level. Honestly, I don't care if the leveling process takes longer, if I get to do it with people my character meets, rather than having to find just the right levels of people so we can actually gain xp.

I do not see how they are mutually exclusive. I admit that I do not know the XP script or NWN scripting in general, so correct me if I'm wrong, but this should be a matter of changing a few lines of code. A few hours of work, tops. Compared to creating a new quest, the effort-impact ratio is highly profitable.

And, I daresay, this would have a much greater impact on Amian culture than any tweaks to XP rewards as such because it directly impacts players' choice to play together.

Ultimately it boils down to developer schedule, of course. But when, if ever, there is time for this change we ought to have a finished suggestion with the kinks ironed out. It is more a matter of mathematics and social engineering than technical implementation.

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Well you do not have the insight on the matter and it is seldom a few hours of code since changes need be tried, tested and evaluated.

I like the direction the project is going so far

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

It isn't level issues but also race issues to. Like as of currently as a kobold i am level 6. However most plays refuse to play with kobolds, thus kobolds must stay together to go hunting.. this however leads to level caps. if the level cap was larger but with less exp i'd still be getting exp but even then its better then nothing at all!
Not everyone knows how to get high level scrolls or items to mega farm exp so instead of focusing on the people who use scrolls or items to farm, focus on the people who have issues in even finding a group that ends up requiring such a thing.

While the jobs are useful for exp, even then most require a -lot- of time as well and you need to know if that job even gives decent exp in the first place, buuut you should -not- use jobs for exp gain instead of hunting as most jobs require you to go out and find the damned stuff first for it to be useful, and has very limited uses.

Ah an idea! I saw ona server a long time ago my friend run that a small script can be used. where you 'pay' somehow to get into a building where based off level you need to kill fake enemies, do certain jobs, etc as mini quests. while not deadly and you get no coin for it, you basically earn a certain amount of exp based off that level per time you pay to a max of twice a month. another script they used was a timed exp tick for when you were around people roleplaying.

all sorts of things people can do for such thing, but even then it requires time a lot of DM's don't have... *sigh*

I'd personally love to see rp xp like they do on Prisoners of the Mist. Sure, it would be abused, but...*shrugs* Anything can and will be abused. This would simply be another way to encourage rp.

I agree with Moormoor's point about let's not look at the powergamer here for leveling. Let's look at the type of character we should be encouraging: Someone who has a story, someone who is attempting to be in character all the time. I'm beginning to beat a dead horse with this, but... randomly meeting people, rping a bit, and going on an adventure is what D&D is about. Having to check if they're "Within range" has no place in that. Let it happen naturally. Punish those that abuse it, ie, stand invisible and do nothing. See how it goes.... make alterations as needed. Watch the community grow. It could be fun.

I've no doubt the DM team has tons of projects to work on, but, like IronAngel said, this sounds like less of a time consuming fix, but a far reaching one. It would literally affect EVERY character on the server, in a positive way. I'd think that to be more impactful than a new quest or a new job system that takes months to implement. No offense intended to those that put in their free time to make a place for all of us to play, merely trying to help, and maybe make your job easier too.

That sounds like an XP idea, which belongs in the other thread.

Otherwise, feel free to keep ideas flowing guys, but as stated, unless it is an idea that ties into the present project, chances are it will not be impacting how things are going on presently.

If you feel the need to complain about the present system, which we all agree needs changing and is therefore -actively- being changed, then that is up to you. Just don't go knocking the new system needlessly until it is in place and its actual flaws can be spotted.

I mean, for all we know, this will fix things for the vast majority of the server. It could also fail horribly, despite looking awesome on paper. Either way, we don't know, so at this moment, there is no actual evidence which can be used to produce any form of accurate conjecture on the topic.

All we can really do is wait and see.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

Fair enough. By the way, do we have even an estimate of when the new system will be active? Any idea at all?

I personally do not. Glim and Msheeler may know though.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

I believe that the new system is all about the quests. Can we make it so the level cap is wider so long as your group is all working on the same quest, and haven't tripped off some event in your quest log?

You speak to the farmer in north cordor about the goblins stealing some cows, and can enlist the help of someone who has just been killing goblins for weeks because they hate goblins and not because they care about livestock. Then just make it so that the xp gap closes back to +/- 5 the moment you have the stinkpot goblin chief's head on a pike. This would make it tempting for people to just turn back before the final boss in a dungeon to just run it over and over with boosted xp from a wider level gap. How to deal with that? Have the quest close and fail for goblinhate mcslaughter once they pass a level that the xp gain from completing the quest would be even be a benefit for them.

"You took too long on that job, the goblins took more cows. Just don't worry about it."

In theory it means that anyone who abuses this by not levelling up in order to keep the level gap open is now playing an adventurer who is so passionate about hating goblins or what have you that they don't branch out and move on to bigger things; you are actively encouraging people to (maybe accidentally) play something other than a level 30 powerhouse. They are now dedicated wardens of chosen dungeons. Alternatively if the DM team doesn't like this? They are practically painting massive targets on themselves for rule abuse punishments.

This may also mean that you could level up for a while by just taking your time questing with a more diverse group. You can level steadily out of the level cap, so long as you share a common adventuring career and thus share a common narrative and history, giving out a bit more roleplay to your dungeon crawling.

This probably has way more potential for abuse than I can imagine, sooo... discuss?

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Player of:
Asya Goodmonsdottir - Knight of Lesser Gods.
-Winner of 2014's "Razored Tongue" Award, and Emcee's pick "Authoritarian of the year".
Jannah Vindle - Mistress of Coin.

The first thing I wanted to do when I wake up today was to make this thread.
The difference is that I would argue that the ECL range should be pushed up to 10 levels of difference rather than completely eliminate it, and balance it properly so the XP penalty/bonus applies accordingly beyond the 5 levels of difference.

There are many reasons for why I believe this should be done. A limited playerbase, an already restrictive OOC system that doesn't really work that well to begin with - 5 levels can make all the difference of the world for some character, but for others it is completely meaningless, and even if you go around in a party full of 10s with a 20, it doesn't mean that the 20 will automatically kill everything in sight with a glare (unless it's a WM, but they do that one way or another) and rush to the next spawn like a proper killing machine. That can happen already with our current system.

Even, the quests are designed to give people some experience - not automatically level them, which means they have to grind one way or another, and grinding half of the time requires a party depending your build. At least if we are trying to encourage people to build according the RP and not the stronkest thing in the market. The power of the character varies greatly and their levels do not always make them justice, and while some characters may be completely fine by breezing alone through a dungeon intended for a few levels above, some other characters may be stuck in the completely opposite situation.

Changing this does not make it easier for the powerplayer. As it was said, whoever wants to powergame will always find the way to do so, and that is fine. If that's how you find enjoyment in the game, that's completely alright by my book. Changing this just makes it easier for the characters who already have it hard enough.

Let's take a look at the opposite example; a party full of 20s with a 10. Of course, the 10 will be more like watch and learn like a proper mage, but as far as I know the spawns are scripted to always attack the weakest character, the so called "Low AC Vision", so even then the weakest character will be constantly at risk, unless he decides to wait at the start of the area and get free XP - which should be considered an exploit and ruled out. And surprise, that can still be done with our current system.


Now, let's consider this from the narrative point of view. Characters so far above the level are inspiring examples as well, a source of experience as good as it is watching malarites getting hacked down or learning epic spells by simply harvesting crops.
Even in DM adventurers, higher level characters do not immediately outshine anybody else - they have a role to function; it's not like they are suddenly the mage, the rogue and the fighter of the party compressed as one and will overwhelm the rest of the players leaving absolutely no RP like a black hole. Yes, they will naturally be somewhat better than others, and that is what the level means to begin with! It's no strange alien mechanic unheard of; it's how it has ever worked.


This doesn't mean that the questline should be entirely dropped or anything - I can see it working perfectly together by the simple point stated above. I said it before, and I'll say it again: The level of the character does not equate its power flawlessly.

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Womans in your town

Ice has eloquently stated all the reasons I am for an adjustment in the level cap. New content notwithstanding, I'd hope this gets a serious look by the Team, for implementation sooner rather than later. Sure, I know there are new things coming, but, we will still have this cap problem. Others have said it's not much work to change it. I have no idea. I'd think a little work right now that can affect everyone positively is a good thing?

*shrugs a bit* Well from a new person like myself all i can offer this; Recently i went with a bunch of level 20+'s looking for a plant that seems friggen hard to find. I did work, cast spells, gathered loot, and even nearly died once or twice from mobs above my own level under my level and even mobs i am happy to have been shown for later. But the while the RP was decent it left basically the 'bad taste of pointlessness' as in the end neither exp, gold(past selling my half of the loot we rarely found) nor even the plant itself. while a higher level group cap would have been nice, i wouldn't have gotten any of that anyway due to the massive difference in level, but even then my character would have learned something, even if only a little.
just so i'm on the right track(I hope i am, EXP= experience points= knowledge to better yourself, Correct..? So literally anything you'd learn from should give exp; reading a book you haven't before, testing a new spell against a dummy or willing subject or heck even a monster, even fishing can give knowledge in how to better fish. but to -block- exp due to level would basically being saying 'you learned nothing from this useful.' which is nearly impossible if following someone better then you are something.

What if there was a daily quest or something that some NPC gives out that your character/s can complete for xp once per day?

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They used to have that in the Cordor Guard, a guard would ask you to go out and search for an escaped convict then you'd get GP and XP(?) Loy was already 30, so I'm not sure if there was XP income at the time.

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

I rather like that and it could help! Maybe a few random jobs like a gather job 'i lost my dolly!' in the sewers for low levels or in the city and things like that for other cities, mayve a 'wanted' poster for convicts/monsters causing issues. all sort of things! ya i -really- like that idea.

The thing is...

... The job system already works like that.

And no one likes the job system.

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Womans in your town

I like the job system.. i think its just not finished...

Never be afraid or hesitant to do so, in the manner you just did. I don't have any issue with someone contradicting something I've said, or making me re-look at an issue as your post did here, when it's written in a constructive and meaningful manner such as this. Kudos to you.

I have actually seen similar restrictions on other servers. The first server I ever played on was like this, played there for years and never really had a problem with it, because most of the time if you were "outside the range" you would just get steamrolled by whatever monsters you were trying to fight anyway. Has no one encountered that issue here, for those of you who have forgone XP and brought lower-level folks along with you?


Little more complex than that. I haven't dug into Disco's AI enough to know all the ins and outs to provide the details (nor would I because then you'd know how to beat the AI all the time ) but I do know it's more complex than just "Lowest AC".



I will have a more serious think on this over the next few days.

Glim, thanks for listening.

I would think if the steamrolling would occur, then IC there would be less abuses of this then. My real point is to maintain roleplay and not have to OOC to find out levels, or come up with reasons why characters who jump at the chance to adventure, wouldn't do so with others (who are of course lower or higher levels). It's all about the roleplay.

Again, thanks, to you and the entire team, for all you do to give us a place to play.

I don't know if you noticed, Glim, but Gabe had pretty much the same suggestion in the XP topic, only with a level-based cap for maximum XP/kill included. It is a more cautious model you might implement if you worried this could be too easy in some cases. But I imagine you will discuss the details on the Dev side if it comes to that.

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I've still yet to delve into that topic. Later today perhaps.