So, this is an idea that I know a number of people will be against, but I think it needs to be said anyway. One of the biggest cons on Amia is the fact that the leveling system is absolutely, disgustingly, and painfully tedious. It's a major turn off not only for existing players, but for new players as well. (Especially for new players, actually) .. And simply put, it needs a massive overhaul.

With the current XP rates, Amia is very much so time consuming. Making a new character takes far more time than the majority of us have (especially college students, or those with a full time job) and hence, it's really difficult getting to 30 at all, let alone finding a group to do it with in Amia's current, faded state. The system we have in place here isn't player friendly at all. It's very anti-player, actually.

New players here honestly are given the middle finger left and right with all the rules and restrictions we have:

A) They can typically 'at most' find one to two quests on their own while still getting decent xp before our 'questline' just drops them and says "Yeah, peace out. We don't care about you anymore." .. And they're left to go look for stuff on their own (and typically, seek the help of a more experienced player).
B) They're dirt poor starting off. It's a huge pain for them to afford potions, kits, or anything to keep themselves alive, and even for the more experienced players, when we make a new character with our friends? It's ridiculously difficult being able to afford enough res scrolls to keep them living.
C) The removal of incoming portals makes it even harder for people to group up, congregate, and level together. Newbies need to have their hand held the whole way, and often times when weaker characters (like rogues, or dexxers) .. find themselves repeatedly dying in the early leveling phase, it results in them endlessly falling into this loop of walking 20 miles to their leveling area > dying, and repeating the same cycle again. The majority of us (as new characters, not 30s) simply cannot afford the scrolls or the heals to keep them alive. So they're left to respawn, again and again. It's not uncommon for people to fall into a stagnant halt w/ xp gain. (Unless they are experienced.)
D) Finding a group to level with is a total pain in the ass. The majority of the experienced players here have their 30s and don't hardly have the motivation or the will to want to go through that horrible, tedious, painful experience that is leveling to 30 again. So nowdays there are RARELY any low level characters on throwing their names into the LFP list. At most I see 1-2 people on that list now. With an XP boost? People would be more motivated to create new characters, actually commit to and level them, and new players would have a chance to actually have a party to help them out.
E) Higher level characters have numerous restrictions on them when it comes to helping new players/characters. There's bartering rules, buffing rules, babysitting rules, and there's also muling rules. Each of these have their own legitimate purpose and reason, but when combined with an XP rate that requires you to no life it for a week to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time? It's just WAY too much. Us veteran players can work our way around it, but the new guys don't stand a chance. Within a week they lose interest and just walk away saying "**** this shit."


.. Amia's tedious leveling system is NOT a plus. It doesn't make people like the server more, and it doesn't make it more enjoyable. It's painful, it's time-consuming, and it leaves no concern or regard for the fact that any of the players here have that thing called a 'real life'. To get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time you have to no life it for ridiculous numbers of hours at a time. And even then, nowdays you are very often alone. There are hardly any parties to level with. You need to organize a group, and when most of us get 1-2 hour windows to play before RL becomes an involvement again? .. Yeah, good luck finding 4-5 other players that just so happen to be free at the same time. And good luck organizing the group, getting the RP taken care of, and getting them all to the leveling area before they have to go (or only have 30 minutes to an hour left).

--

As a STRONG example:


Within the last two weeks alone I have brought five new players to this server. (Five new players to NWN entirely, in fact) .. Three of them have begun their characters already, and although just a week ago, all three of them were hyped, excited, and overjoyed to be playing this game after witnessing some of the level 30 conflict & social RP, after just two days of going through the hell that is Amia's leveling system, all three of them are losing motivation to play this game entirely. What they saw (with the bandit RP and the like) was a game that distinguished itself as far more deep, different, and unique than most RPGs (or even MMOs) today. They all loved it. They adored the idea, adored the roleplay, the talk, the drama and so on. But each of them are struggling to stay interested now. Each of them are struggling to see how or why it's worthwhile to play a game where, after a week (and sometimes two) they still aren't past level 7. The reasons why?:

A) Excessive deaths.
B) Being dirt poor. (Unable to afford buffs, heal pots/kits, & res scrolls)
C) Having rules designed specifically to make it so that the rest of us CAN'T help them within a reasonable amount of time, or with a reasonable amount of effort.
D) Having a quest line that drops them after level 3-4.
E) Getting absolutely trash for XP, even with higher level players guiding them. (And deaths not doing too much to help with that) ..
F) Limited time. They have jobs, they have lives, and some of them are in college. They can't just go level for 72 hours straight. They get an hour or so a day (if EVEN) that. And when they do? There's no guarantee their higher level friends will be there to guide them or teach them where to go and how to really get started.
G) Aside from personal friends that are there to help them, they are left very much so alone in the struggle to level their characters. The LFP list is almost always empty, and it's namely because the leveling system is so slow and tedious that the existing players here just straight up don't want to have to deal with it again, and hence, they don't make new characters.

.. So, simply put, there is a very small chance Amia's numbers will ever grow, so long as this server continuously and remorselessly gives the middle finger to new players. But, unfortunately, it's not even just the new guys that are suffering the bitter taste and stress that comes with trying to build a new character here. It's the current playerbase too. The veteran players around here can find their ways around, sure. They can figure out their own system, get some help from friends, and just 'manage' to bear the process of getting a new character to 30, but it's only that. It's long, it's boring, it's painful, and it just really isn't fun at all. Most people absolutely dread it, and for good reason too.

--

The solution: Make Amia more -welcoming- .. Make it so that leveling has it's difficulties, but so that it doesn't take a month for people to accomplish anything. Sure, do what you can to restrict and avoid abuse, but do so while giving people fair reward for their efforts. Don't deprive them on -top- of making it so other people can hardly help them. Boost the XP gains (all around) .. double them, triple them. Whatever. But this server needs to consider the fact that people have real lives outside of this game, and so long as they are leaving people to make little to no progress (unless they are absolute vets) during those 1-2 hour windows of time they can free up between classes or jobs, they really aren't going to be making their players any happier.

--

What WILL happen as a result:


A) Far more players will be willing to make new characters, and more frequently at that. The LFP list will be more full and welcoming to any and all who need or want other players that they can group and level with.
B) With new characters, there will be new stories, new life, and new roleplay. (Greater potential to build new factions as well, all those cute little goblin tribes and kobold families will grow faster and develop with more frequency/commitment. People won't just give up halfway through because the leveling system is just too long and painful. They'll really hold onto it.)
C) New players will actually feel like they're making progress when they sign on to level. They'll likely actually enjoy the time that they're here, and they'll have more motivation to stay.
D) People will really make the most out of their 1-2 hour play time windows. They won't just sign on, walk around for half an hour looking for roleplay and just end up leaving later because they've just given up in finding any. Namely because people will be online more often, they'll be able to be all excited about their new characters, and the server in general will just thrive due to the incentive, excitement, and motivation that comes with the idea of making a new character, or joining/building a new faction with friends.
E) Amia will see it's numbers grow. And less people will leave out of sheer boredom, stress, or annoyance at how slow everything is here.
F) Amia will finally lose it's title of Arelith 2.0: The server duo that has no regard for real life circumstances at all and that demands constant, loving attention and devotion to get anywhere or accomplish anything.

What WON'T happen as a result:


A) Amia won't turn into the PVP only powerhouse that everyone is so afraid of. Sinfar gives massive xp rates, people pop 40s out by the day, and they don't see this out of control PVP community that Amia is so terrified of developing.
B) No, Amia won't lose the value of roleplay. If anything, this will create -more- roleplay.

--

C & A (Comments & Answers: The Most Typical)


1. "Please. You can get level 30 here in three days no problem." If you no life it, if you have the time to no life it, and if you're an experienced player (typically with help). That is not what any new player will be accomplishing.
2. "You can help new players plenty. They should have no problem leveling." Not when you each have drastically different schedules, you need to deeply RP out every 'gift giving' or 'aiding' help session, and when, even while making a new character to level -with- them, you're dirt poor, weak and scrawny too.
3. "There's no excuse to be level 5 after a week of play." It's called real life: College, a job, a significant other, and so on. Not everyone has the freedom to make Amia the sole center of their attention 24/7.
4. "But the PVPers will abuse it!" Uh, no. Not really. If PVPers can pump out new 30s with this system, so can you. It's even on either side. Again, refer to Sinfar. This did nothing but benefit them.
5. "But Sinfar only has more players because of SRP." Not exactly. They have a ton of custom content, and.. above all, they're player friendly. They don't have this PVP phobia that leads them to writing a ton of rules that just take a dump on anyone who wants to make a new character in a reasonable amount of time. In fact, the ease of making a new character is one of the primary aspects that keeps their player count thriving. People get excited about making new characters. It's appealing, it's enticing, it draws them in, and it keeps them interested. On Amia? People dread it. It's like "Oh, **** .. I've gotta level now. What a bore." <-- And if you screw up? Ohh boy. You don't even want to go there.
6. "It's been this way for years, and it's worked. There's no point in changing it now." Actually, there is. It creates roleplay, it gives people incentive to stay, to play, and to remain committed to playing here, and in the past, slow, tedious leveling has been a widely known con of this server. Many people look down on it.
7. "Well -I- don't look down on it." Well, that's you. Someone who is likely a vet, someone who likely -has- copious amounts of free time, and someone who is likely just used to the system here. New players will not be sharing your perspective.

--

Simply put, there is nothing to lose, and everything to gain by doing this. Yeah, Amia has had this system in place for a long time, but that doesn't mean it's ideal, or that it's for the best. It just means that that's the way it's been. Nothing more.

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Inkheart

The team is currently working on a quest system that can be used as an alternative to endless grinding. However, an entire quest system takes time, and with all the other development projects going on, it's not exactly going to be implemented fully any time soon.

There are also a heap of new dungeons going in, some of which may or may not be used by the new quests and it should give more life to the server. Again, this takes time. But it will be worth it when the time comes.

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

Actually, just about every one of those is being addressed from our end, just in more ways than throwing xp at the problem. It all takes a while though.

I'm glad to hear that, but I think something should be implemented temporarily in the meanwhile, though. To hold things up until a better system can replace it. Regardless of anything else, raising the XP gains -would- help a number of things on this server tremendously.

People just lack the time to build up 30s in a reasonable time frame w/ the XP averages that Amia has. The low XP has little to no benefit, while higher XP would have a very sizable amount of the contrary. In a dying game, time is of the essence. If you guys recognize the problems, even if you have something in the works to handle them in the future, I still think it'd be wise to implement a temporary solution in the meanwhile. At the very least for a bit of a test phase. I've seen a number of players in the past few weeks express their disdain for the current leveling system (mostly XP gains) in place, and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't among the number of people that is unnerved by it, and more specifically .. it's exemplification of a lack of concern for the fact that people have lives outside of this game.

Aside from that? Nearly every player I've talked to here is in full agreement with the fact that Amia is about as dead now as it has ever been, and in general it's just really dull. You guys may have a solution in the works, but that's neglecting the present. And I believe, as strongly as I am able, that if you guys boosted the xp (doubled, or even tripled) .. this server would change overnight. People would be making new characters left and right. The LFP list would be absolutely filled, and leveling parties would be running rampant everywhere: roleplaying, hunting, talking, and bonding. This server would have a revitalized expression of life it hasn't had in a very long time. And the new players? .. They'll be overjoyed and undoubtedly excited to see that. And I'm rather sure that the rest of us would be too. So what's to lose?

Whatever you do, please ask yourself that. And know that I'm very serious about this. I'm aware that from management positions it's very difficult to condone or mentally justify more 'impulsive' or spontaneous decisions like this, but without a doubt, I can promise you that the 'dead' state Amia is in right now will come to a very abrupt ending if you guys build up the confidence and will to try this. You can always undo it if it doesn't work out. (Though, that won't be necessary, I'm sure. As it -will- work.)

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Inkheart

Honestly, if amia wasn't a server who's dm team catored exclusively to players at the level cap, I would be inclined to disagree with Inkheart here. But the fact is that I have yet to see a single plot that isn't focused on "end game" and things like that. Everything is balanced to level 30.

Making new quests isn't going to solve the problem either, because making these quests takes anywhere between 3-6 months for one at a time. It could be 2-4 years before the tedium of the level speed in cordor is addressed and that doesn't change things for the rest of the races and places on the server at all.

I have repeatedly said that if something isn't fun, people won't do it. And leveling on amia is the opposite of fun, it feels like a punishment sometimes because of how pointlessly long it takes, and how we don't have a comprehensive list of what areas are what level for grinding if we are forced to do so. If you want people to come to amia, you need to fix things so that leveling on here is fun or people are going to keep leaving. Eventually a character is going to become boring and then they won't want to make a new one because of how frustratingly tedious that process is. It discourages everyone, new and old, from trying out new characters, new concepts, and doing things that further develop the server for more than just their main.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

^ This. 100%. Please don't disregard this.

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Inkheart

I haven't formed an opinion on the practical implementation, but I do agree with the sentiment. I'm currently working a full-time job, and before that I was doing a fairly demanding master degree. When I'm not doing this, I'm usually either socialising in RL, getting some exercise, handling the overhead of living. This means that every time I can sit down to play games I need to weigh between Amia and other games by how much satisfaction I will get out the time spent playing; in other words, to get the biggest return on my investment.

The satisfaction I get from Amia tends to wax and wane depending on the alternatives, but certainly also as my character* gets involved in things or in interesting roleplay, or moves to the periphery. Aurelius burned a lot of bridges in his time, and while I'm not resentful of the outcome it does make it difficult to get involved in any factions or settlements (where your efforts and time tend to pay off the most due to their somewhat persistent nature and returns) - especially since those places that are still open at first glance wouldn't fit my character either. So what's there to do when I do log in? Wander about (or stand around) hoping for things to change while experiencing only a trickle of interaction, much of it trivial. This doesn't seem like a good return on investment to me.

That leads me to *. I have plenty of alternative character ideas. To avoid confusion I tend to play one character at a time, but I'd love to get involved in the thematic roleplay and activities that my character doesn't have access to (Tarkuul, for example). But I don't. No matter how excited I get about my character ideas, I never get around to it because I "don't have the time to play them". Which is a euphamism for "I don't want to go trough that ruthless, frustrating, low-level grind in order to even just have a chance of getting involved". Nothing stops you from roleplaying a level 1 character as a novice (and frankly you should) and the way your character grows and evolves is afterall what it's all about, but the sheer difference in levels precludes a low-level character from most meaningful contributions to any group effort (unless you outright ignore things like Lore ranks or play the a porter, sycophant and/or comic relief), and the difficulty of getting up that plateau is enough for me to shrug and say "eff it, I'll play Civ instead".

To me this plateau is not so much down to the experience gain rate itself, but the combination of a low experience rate gain, coupled with a high risk and a huge "bucket" you need to fill in order to get to some arbitrary standard of level and gold where you can actively engage with others. No amount of quests is going to change this (as they tend to be just context to hunting anyway - but it doesn't change the risk/reward of hunting itself), and multiplying the xp gain seems like a cheap work-around at best.

So my suggestion is more radical (and hence I don't suspect it will ever happen, because status-quo) but I would be interested in seeing a great reduction of the level cap. Let's say 10 (D&D gets wonky after 9 anyhow - you're literally bringing back the dead at that point), with the possibility of reaching 15 if your character completes the appropriate challenges/requests to prove they are truly 'epic' characters. It makes every level far more relevant in itself, makes the server easier to balance and maintain (as it doesn't need such a wide disparity of spells, items and abilities to balance across the levelrange) and all-round lowers the barrier (and hence the perceived need of reaching for it all the time) between "trivial" and "useful".

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Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"

Beat me to it. But this. It's a grind, and discourages new ideas and variety.

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Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"

Are you suggesting, bob, that the DM Team do something a little more like what I tried to do in the past and make events tailored specifically for low to mid level PCs with an unspoken "stay away" to higher level PCs? This often results in higher level PCs...the ranking majority...expressing feelings of being ostracized. In spite of the fact that, you know, most of the server is catered to them anyway.

On a personal note, the idea of just handing over level 30 as the OP suggests makes me sad because the work I put into balancing the lower lootbins and making them interesting becomes irrelevant. That is a personal gripe, though, and not one that should figure into the overall merits of the discussion. No need to respond with the "too bad, Yoss, that is your own fault", I get you there.

.. I agreed with everything up until this point wholeheartedly. It was intelligent, and undoubtedly eloquently stated, but everything after scared the hell out of me:



This isn't something I can personally agree with at all. There's a number of servers that have failed in the past specifically -because- of their low level caps. And one of the major cons of NWN2 was the level cap as well. Taking it down to 10 literally eliminates entire.. massive aspects of this game. Prestige classes are all but thrown out the window, epic feats are gone. Character diversity is killed (in a very harsh manner) .. and there are significantly less possibilities available for building/creation. And this as well would bring about the question as far as what to do with the existing level 30s. If we just up and take 20 levels down on everyone's characters, this server will go from 30-40 players a day to 3-4 overnight. Very few people will feel comfortable with this. (And, no joke.. if I saw one of the last great NWN servers reduce it's level cap to 10, when 30 is a limitation -as is- that I dislike, I'd up and leave the day it occurred, and chances are I wouldn't ever come back. And I know I wouldn't be the only one.)

Of all that I've said thus far, though, I believe these paragraphs were by far some of the most important, and I hope you guys seriously read and consider it. Try to picture the results. Because they are very clear in my mind, and I see it as a solution that can have no failure, and likely no equal either (not for a long while):



^ Yes, it sounds ridiculous. Yes, it's impulsive. But it will also save this server from continuing to be a faded, shadow of what it once was. It'll bring it back to the old days. I seriously believe that.

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Inkheart

Just throwing my two cents in here.

I personally see no issue with the rate at which XP is earned on this server. I mean, I definitely look forward to the new quest system being added, but I don't see much issue with how things are done now. If you talk to a fair number of players, you'll find that people even know how to reach level 30 in a matter of days. Though, to me, this isn't a good thing either. Also for the record, I don't have a lot of free time to play, save for evenings and weekends.

As a whole, this IS an RP server. It shouldn't be about the first person to grind to max level. Plain and simple. When you say that someone is still level 7 after a week of play, that isn't really a bad thing at all. If anything, I'd personally prefer XP rates to be even lower than they are now, or even pose a daily limit on xp. That way people could put more focus on RP and actually developing the changes in their character. I do know a daily limit on XP is likely not to happen, however. It just seems to me that, when people make a character and then grind to max level as fast as humanly possible, it's not much different from just starting at max level. A big part of RP is the character development itself, but then there are the people who don't even RP until max level. Higher XP rates will honestly just lend to reduced RP, rather than increase it with this in mind. Though, there are still plenty of people who take things slow, anyways.

I also highly doubt this will drive away new players, or even many current ones. The system of XP is fair, overall. Despite some areas with unbalanced/powerful enemies giving far less XP than they should (but this is only in a few areas, and based on how powerful the enemies can be). Those who play on the server seem to enjoy it a lot, and the server still sees plenty of new players. On peak hours, both servers tend to sit above 30 players (which is honestly a lot for a game as old as NWN).

Not really gonna get into anything regarding why players choose to play Sinfar, but I can definitely touch on stuff about Amia being Arelith 2.0. Honestly, it's long since separated from being Arelith 2.0, really. The systems on this server, the XP gain, etc, differ a lot from Arelith. Arelith has very heavy limitations, lots of favouritism, no real custom content to speak of (in the way of haks), etc. Amia has a lot more freedom for things, and that's the point. The amount of XP people earn right now is part of that.

Now, back to an earlier point I made, just as a bit of a side note. I wanna state that I actually really like the idea of putting in a daily limit on COMBAT XP to prevent insane power leveling. Additionally, to balance something like this out, an increase in the ECL difference for parties could be made, or even removed entirely. Though, I'd be more in favour of an increase to something like... 15. But as a whole, limiting daily XP to a level, or even two levels would balance out a lot of the powergaming-to-RP, and lead to a great deal more with players able to RP with each other, or even adventure together if they choose. Now, mind you, this limit would only really be for combat specific RP. People would still be able to gain XP by burning DCs or DM given XP. But yeah. I personally think this would aid a lot.

So, to quickly sum up. I think the XP is perfectly fine the way it is, and I don't think it will cause any real issues being as it is. Though, a daily level limit and increase ECL difference would be nice for less powerleveling, and more RP.

_________________

This is a lovely idea, except that there are hardly any low levels to speak of. Let alone numbers enough of them to create definitive non-30 level 'ranges'. And it also makes the 'incentive' of building a new character dependent upon the presence and action of a DM, as well as the fortunate timing of a player logging in to join in the fun (and hopefully get some xp as well) .. It's too circumstantial and not exactly dependable, as opposed to the stable, static, and constant promise of reward (even 'return' on investment) that XP boosts would give.

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Inkheart

Terallis, both from personal experience and the incessant testimonies of other players (new players included) .. and friends, I have to completely disagree with you. There are seemingly endless cons to the current system in place (hence the reason they're trying to come up with solutions in the first place) .. and being able to get 30 in three days is ONLY possible for those with excessive amounts of free time, ridiculous amounts of patience and devotion, and typically a break from a job/schooling that rarely comes around (if ever).

This is one of those arguments I gave a response to in the original thread, well above this (refer to C&A #1, #6, and #7. Those are the arguments you just used). The circumstances that make the current leveling system in place convenient for you are -not- shared by the majority of the players here. Maintaining the slow, tedious system we have in place will not satisfy new or old players, and it certainly won't give them any incentive to stay or build new characters.

You said character development is important? .. 99% of my character development (on all of my characters) occurred after max level. Your characters have more potential, more abilities, and hence, more versatility when it comes to possible 'actions' or interactions with others. WAY back in the day, when we had a more active playerbase, when the LFP list actually had people on it, it was different. I could every so often get some character development in the leveling phase. But that was when NWN and Amia -both- were in their prime. That was a different time entirely. The current system -is- a problem, as it causes many. So if you're not here to propose solutions to that, I'd rather you not propose that we don't come up with a solution at all, and that we inherently leave Amia in the dead state that it is. Because that's exactly what you're doing.

Denial of the circumstances and resorting to sandbagging and doing nothing will -solve- nothing, and it will improve nothing. Which I'd say is just a little ironic to suggest, given that this is the "Improving Amia" forum. Improvements don't come by sitting on our butts and claiming "all is perfect, all is well" .. when they very clearly are not. They come by accepting the circumstances, acknowledging the problems, and taking a chance.

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Inkheart

I think the root of the problem lies with the belief that you can't do anything if you're not max level. I currently don't play any epic-level characters and I've noticed that there's a strong culture of Level 30s being the only people who can get involved with things. I've been RP'ing and meeting new people with a level 15 character almost exclusively for months. It's possible! All you have to do is RP. There's no reason you need to rush to 30.

It's true there are similar problems with DM events catering to level 30 characters (not to mention the drastic push toward epic level gear that you see everywhere, costing hundreds of thousands of gold that you'll almost never get before Epic). But that's something that can be worked on.

I think people need to be more open toward leveling at a slower pace. It doesn't have to be a mad dash to 30. RP along the way. I haven't grinded XP for weeks, but I'm still enjoying RP as a level 15.

_________________

It's not that you can't do anything unless you're max level, it's rather that you can do significantly more if you are. And not only that, but RP is very hard to come by now days without conflict RP, without new factions, and without new characters. People tend to stick to their own cliques, their own closed doors and so on. Quicker leveling would increase the reward for time investment in this game & on this server, it would breed new roleplay, encourage new ideas & character creativity, and it would give people incentive to really organize new social content (such as new factions, groups, and so on) .. Basically, it'd bring the entire server together, on a level that most of us haven't seen for a long while. The 'leave things as is' route works only for those who truly -do- no life it. And those who actually have their cliques. It also limits this server to a very specific style of finding RP, and hence it limits the number of people who can enjoy playing on Amia.

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Inkheart

What is it that stops you from suggesting, Zykritch, that we simply start PCs at level 30? There is no snark behind that question, I promise.

Because the leveling process (even if the speed of the process -is- increased) does result in the bonding of players on this server. It results in roleplay, meeting new people, creating IC connections/friendships, and in general it creates a 'community' based experience that is definitely enticing and exciting for new players. Skipping straight to 30 wouldn't completely kill that, but to an extent it would, and a lot of the roleplay that comes through leveling with a group would end up going to waste. So long as the difficulty and the challenge of leveling remains in tact, the XP bonuses for successfully completing such shouldn't effect the quality of the RP experience players can have in the leveling process. You can still find the necessity for implementing group strategy and so on IC'ly.

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Inkheart

Don't jump on me and slice my throat when I say: Amia is easy xp.




Haven't quoted what I said in furious anger yet?




Cool, let me explain why. When you know all the optimum hunting circuits (which change now and then with additions/removals to the module) you can do 1-30 in about 3-4 days in the right party. Now, the problem is the following:


1. Catering to "useless" party members. By no means do I mean that these people are literally worthless, but if you have an option of partying with 3 pure casters or 3 pure non-casters, we all know which we'd prefer. A lot of monsters ARE catered to being a challenge against casters roflstomping everything, as such it makes the soloability of other classes... bad. Now there's no way of rectifying this without outright restricting "OP" classes from entering unique hunting grounds made for these classes and, you guessed it, wrecking every enemy easily (the only way I can see this happening is making all the monsters have really high SR and throwing summon-killing spells all over the place).

2. Experience is vital. Your new player is /trying/ to learn all of these things, but the moment one asks: "STOP! THIS IS AN IC THING! DO NOT ASK OOCLY!" which lead to a kind-of "black market" excel sheet thrown about the players with the best places to grind.

3. IC sense. You've killed the Gnoll Champion twelve times today, you then go with a better party to kill five ice giant kings, then in a lower-level party go back to kill the Gnoll Champion. ?????????

4. It's very boring to most people. Already addressed above, but running circuits is very boring for some, but it is in fact generally the best xp rates than moving to a new area each time.






I have no solutions to offer, just giving my POV.

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I'd also like to just toss out a small thing that, one of the largest factions on the server right now (the kobold faction) has a ton of great RP happening, and the general level range of the people within that faction is 10-20. There really isn't anything stopping from making good RP, pre-30. Just because you can "do more" at level 30, doesn't mean you're helpless before then. Level 30 is literally the realm of demigods. Yes, there are a lot of level 30s around, but I really have to wonder why it's so important to be able to RP benchpressing a cart, convincing a king to kill themselves over a lost sweetroll, perfectly balancing on the tip of a spear, etc (just examples of things that are possible, depending on ability scores and skills) for any RP to carry relevance? It doesn't make much sense at all.

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Kamina: It's a little sad that I'm having to repeat this, but it's a 3-4 day accomplishment -only- for those who are both experienced -and- no lifing it. I'm not sure why I'm having to incessantly re-iterate the fact that the majority of us have lives outside of Amia and don't have the time to devote 3-4 days consecutively to the grind, but apparently I do.

So, here's a little math for you: 4 days = 96 hours. At 2 hours a day that's 48 days it would take for someone to get to level 30. (In case you didn't know, that is well over a month.)

Care to see the calculations for 3 days? Regardless of the numbers I can pick here, it isn't pretty. It's tedious, and for most people it isn't just a 3-4 day endeavor. It is far more than that. We don't all live on welfare and just play games all day. There -is- a very literal weighing and measuring of time invested to 'fun had' (reward) ratios.

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Inkheart

Zykritch, as not to start an argument on an IA thread, please read what I said in a neutral tone, I'm in no way condoning a 3-4 day grind, I'm saying it's possible and, since it's a minority that can do it, doesn't apply to everyone.

I understand the frustration of starting out on Amia, I really do, but to quote Terallis:




If getting to level 30 is truly a journey, then 48 days of journeying sounds better than 3-4 days of grinding.

What I was getting at was simply: With the right party and the right knowledge, Amia's level cap is easy to hit. Without the right party and inexperience, the grind is tough and tedious, and that needs to be addressed.

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Please shift the discussion, and anything else that isn't directly, concisely related to an implimentable suggestion, to General Discussion.

I actually agree with you here. But I'll explain the importance in level 30. And unfortunately it'll only be a more in depth explanation of the answer you just referenced here, and that I mentioned earlier: You can -do- more at 30. Your characters have more abilities, more potential, and they are less limited by their lack of physical capability to do things IC'ly. Yes, you can get plenty of great RP at lower levels as well, but as it is.. again, the server is split. The majority of the time people are online, RP is limited to very small groups at a time (if even that) .. and the only time that changes is via conflict RP or other forms of forced congregation. In general, level 5s feel that they have far less capability to play a vital, significant, or enjoyable role in roleplay when all of their peers are level 30, and.. well, they're 5. And until the leveling system is more player friendly (and hence, until XP gains are greater) .. the number of level 5s to go with that 'lone level 5' aren't exactly going to be getting any larger. Namely because no one wants to have to put up with the leveling process.

Regardless of whether or not some of you are perfectly okay with things as they are, there are a number of people who aren't. And when it comes to maintaining the playerbase on a server, you don't succeed or win out in that effort by saying "Well, fuck what they want. Myself and my two friends are happy with things just the way they are." .. Because that's how you push people away with neglect. There's no harm that comes to you from allowing other players to have access to their preferred methods of 'fun' as well. It simply keeps the player count up, and the RP flowing. If they prefer 30 roleplay, so what? .. Let them have it. It doesn't hurt you to do that.

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Inkheart

The thing is, this statement is only true for -some-. It's a preferential thing. It isn't that way for everyone. And it is also (again) dependent upon having other players grinding with you. If you're just solo leveling for 48 days? That is literally hell. That's enjoyable for almost no one. And when leveling is so tedious, slow and painful that no one wants to make new characters, that's exactly what it is.



I agree here, but only partially. The right party & knowledge are necessary to hit the level cap quickly and 'easily', yes. But there's a lot more required than that. And namely, that is time. (And for a party? .. That's time for more than just one person, time that needs to 'coincidentally' and fortunately be in sync, which.. again.. isn't going to happen when no one has the incentive to make new characters due to extreme difficulty and low XP rates.) At this point in time on the server you can't just up and make a character and 'count' on having a ton of other players to be there to level with you. It's a toss up, and more often than not, unless people you -know- make them with you? .. You end up being left to level alone. And even with friends, you're not always on at the same time.

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Inkheart

I am torn.

Yes, grinding is tedious, boring and aggravating. I hate grinding.
But it is necessary. A necessary evil. An evil that allows, and sometimes forces characters to band together when they wouldn't otherwise. An evil that puts some weight behind what means to be a level 30 character; they are supposed to be epic in the sense of the word - and not just because you spent two weeks powerfarming everything in your way.

I'm going to stay out of this discussion, because the only solution I can think about would be locking characters down in level 20 and the rest of the levels being (re)quest only, which is a little tyrannical but gets the job done.
Though perhaps adding a passive XP reward per IG hour wouldn't be a bad idea.

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Womans in your town

In my opinion:

I agree with Jes, you don't have to be 30 to have fun on Amia. I've seen toons in the past such as Allia Devere I think the name was.
About for a good while, never breached level 10. The player said it was their favourite character by mile.

I don't believe levelling should be easier or grant more xp by no means, like Kamina said it should be a journey. I think that there should be more fun in levelling. Since we're playing an RPG on an RP server, the quickest and easiest way to do this is to add quests, which is being done, there's not much can be done in the mean time since world changes are few and far between via module updates. One suggestion I do have, is this:...

I know, DMs, sometimes you're busy, no I don't think it should be a top priority, but dungeons are SOOOOO much more fun with a DM adding twists to a dungeon, different mobs, ambushes, mini-plots.

For example, me and Guano still laugh about when The1Kobra played with our Gauntlet run, swapping the usual mobs for elementals for and getting rid of the earth elemental due to 'budget cuts', 'too many adventurers coming through and killing them makes it hard to earn a pay' xD Then tossing the Dracolich in at us, that was an awesome event.

TLDR? Unique, DM given quests.

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MAURICE "THE JUGGERNAUT" GRAFF

I'll just move it all to GD for now, then. Feel free to repost suggestions into IA, but leave the debate here.

While there is a lot of misconceptions in your initial post you do make some valid points. However when communicating and proposing wide changes its best to come off as overly nice instead of thumping your chest. Now that it's been a few hours perhaps clearer heads will prevail and you will be able to edit it accordingly?

One of the most valid points in here is leveling as a change to low level characters who are new players and who are dexxers. This is probably true damn near anywhere because dexterity doesn't really pay dividends until AC begins to pay out around 10 or so.

People like myself, who know balance who've had level 30s of most character archetypes and who've been around for years can just go purchase a few certain belts, wait for a certain plate armor, or that sort of thing to reduce damage by 5 and we know exactly where to get it and what to look for. Just something so small and easy to me, is not known by a new person and reducing 5 damage each time I'd be hit is insane when we are talking most enemies do 6-7 at most before level 6-8, exception being orc crits and trog crits.


I'd recommend to the player to group up. The server is not meant to go alone, although possible it takes practice and knowledge about the dangers that lie ahead. A group of 3 level 3s should never have any issue with the goblin/kobolds and by that time you're level 4 or 5 and you can hit up orcs the same way.

Lastly... Its a persistent world so we know we can come back alive and death penalties are low as hell here. Minor bothers really.
DON'T BE AFRAID TO RETREAT

I've encountered some of the best RP while retreating and it helped me get a feel for the character, running out of a dungeon with 4 hp, working as a team with your rogue to scout ahead if it's safe, etc.

I hope I was of some assistance. Most players OOC are genuinely helpful and will push you in the right direction.Even IC, your fresh off the boat skinny little kid just trying to make a living for ma and pa and sis and sis and sis and bro and sis and cat back home could have enough to eat, could ask for assistance.

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

Before this potentially devolves into bitterness, let me just say thanks for bringing this up, Inkheart. I do not want it to seem at all like a player's input and desire to better the server for others goes unappreciated.

Also, I think we can avoid devolving the thread if we try really hard. I believe in you all!

Pigeon, I appreciate your points. And they make sense. I did come off harshly in the original post, and I knew it while I was doing so. It was namely because I anticipated a number of very generic, bland responses that would basically completely ignore the logic that motivated the desire for this change in the first place. It's why I had the "C&A" section at the end. I didn't want to have to repeatedly counter something that doesn't even remotely apply or counter the reasons for a new solution.

And Yossarin, it's no problem. I just hope it goes somewhere. I've a lot of reasons for wanting this. But seeing the struggle my friends have gone through these past couple of weeks (even with my help, and with the help of many others) has really made it hit home for me. Yes, we can 'cope' .. we can 'manage' and we can force ourselves to make things work. But that doesn't mean we should leave it that way. It isn't ideal, there -is- room to improve, and that's why I made the post. Because I'm sitting here, seeing two of these new players on a daily basis IRL (they're my roommates in college) and it's pretty damn obvious how much the tedious leveling system is putting them off. As a college student myself I rarely have the time to help them, and it's difficult lining my schedule up with two others, and then with three more (the other players I brought too) .. I'd like to a see a server that's player-friendly enough that not only vets, but new players can be self-dependent (at least to some small extent) in leveling.

But ideally? With these changes that wouldn't be necessary. There'd be enough new characters being made & developed on a daily basis that you'd see leveling parties running around all the time. Like in the old days. -That- is what I'm hoping for.

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Inkheart

I have a suggestion that isn't so much increasing xp, but helping to keep the various levels of players together, even during levelling. This is something I've not liked since coming to Amia. Can we get rid of the +/- 5 level cap for party xp? I think that alone would solve 90% of what is being discussed here. Also, I'd think it was a simpl(er) fix than revamping the xp system. Sure, you will be seeing 4 level 30's take out a level 2 hunting. Yup, it will happen. Guess what though, in real life? It would. I've had to turn down so many hunting parties lately because of being a level or two out of range. How's that for immersion breaking? Chance would have absolutely NO reason NOT to go with these people.... but OOCly, I have to come up with something, and of course, we had to revert to OOC chat to even find out. Please, we're an RP server, let's let everyone RP and HUNT together! If there is talk of upping xp gains, what's the harm in what I'm saying? I personally see it as a way to foster MORE RP, more community.

I've played on several servers, Amia is the only one to even have this rule.

Here's the rub on this anyway, even if a bunch of 30's take along that level 2, that level 2 will only be able to wear and use level allowable gear, won't be able to do much of anything really, and will die, really, really easily. We have rules on babysitting. If they bring them along and the 2 doesn't contribute at all, have a DM slap someone. We're working for the greater good. Most people won't abuse this, most will gain new friends, meet new people, and use this as a tool for rp. Some will powergame it. Likely the same ones who level to 30 in 3 days.

Please DM's, think about it

While I really, really would like the limitations behind hunting gone, there's a soul reason that, even with it is a potential problem:

Afking.

A group of level 30s could curbstomp a really high level area and let the low level gain a lot of xp from it, even if they had to be close to the enemies a simply invisibility spell lets them leech.

Just giving that out as food for thought.

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You know, I actually really like this idea. It's unorthodox, and scary at first (to most, I'd imagine) .. but conceptually it works. And it would definitely promote RP. Kamina's concerns can be addressed by means of doing exactly as you suggested, have a DM slap someone if the low level isn't making any attempt to contribute. (That's rather difficult to regulate, so I doubt it'll go through, but I do like the idea.)

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Inkheart

Kamina,

Yeah, that's what I mean by babysitting. As it stands now, a 30 could follow a 2 around, buff them, heal them, whatever, so long as they're not in the same party. It's against the rules, but it's done. As I said, people will find a way to PG. Personally? Let them get the xp, what's the REAL harm? If they're gonna babysit to get to 30 or they grind hours on end, really, what's the harm or even the difference?

Now... I'm in the camp with Teralis. Amia is by far the easiest server I've spent any amount of time playing on. Prisoners of the Mist, I'd estimate it would take a year or more to max level, and that's 20. Avils/Hala, played there a few years, I'd say if you play regularly, grind a lot, you can hit 40 in a year. Amia? It -can- be done in days. However, my personal experience is this: I have made it to 30 in days or just under 2 weeks with various characters. I don't play them anymore. It came so easy, I let them go easily. My latest character, Chance? I decided not to take shortcuts, not to powergame, to just... go. Sure, he's levelled pretty quick, as of today he's about 4 weeks old and just got level 29. Still, what I feel with this character is a progression of his story as he levelled. The slow gaining of abilities an confidence in those abilities. And slow... ehh, a month isn't that long really. I don't even grind for xp every day. I spend 90% of his time rp'ing. However, I'd probably have been out with more of his friends who happen to be lower level (18-22 range) if the cap were removed.

Also, I don't really grind. It annoys those I'm with sometimes, but, I RP while hunting.... something new around here on Amia to some. I don't have to leave a hunting party or dungeon to rp. I actually play my character right there... among others. Shocking, I know.

While I respect your perspective in your last post, Chance, that's one where I have to step in and point out the fact that the reason that is your experience is because your circumstances have allowed that. Unfortunately not all of us have enough free time to achieve those statistics in that amount of time. And avoiding the grind and exclusively leveling with RP isn't something everyone always has significant amounts of time for either.

I admire and respect what it is that you value in both roleplay & leveling. I respect what most of people prefer here. But what I'm -really- trying to stress, is that picking ANY of these options individually or exclusively ISN'T the solution. And the main reason for that is player diversity. There's too many of us. Each with our own preferences and idea of what is fun vs what is not. And limiting the server to 'one way' and saying goodbye to all the others isn't really going to help it thrive or grow in number at all. What -will- help, though, is keeping an open mind and letting people do their thing, each in their own way. And fortunately, an XP boost would support that for most everyone. (And if they dislike that? Well, we have the luxury of an XP block, and I wouldn't doubt that a restriction on physical XP intake per kill could be scripted to be put into the hands of a player as well. Meaning, the player could accept less xp than the default if they so choose.)

I'm asking everyone, to again ask themselves this: What is there to lose? .. (In the proposed solution) .. As far as I can tell, there's nothing but more to gain.

Here is what there is to gain from an XP boost:

A) A restoration of low level character counts.
B) Incentive for new players to stay on this server.
C) Satisfaction for most everyone, in regards to reward for time investment in this game.
D) Proof of consideration for people's RL circumstances and time restrictions.
E) Greater and more prominent, frequent excitement for new character creation & ideas.
F) More potential to successfully create, organize, and hold onto new factions or 'clans'.
G) More roleplay (by far, there's more players leveling, and hence, more grouping and rp'ing together).
H) A higher chance people will accept perma deaths (given the greater ease had in the leveling process).
I) A redeeming of this server to it's former days.

To give greater clarification and explanation to my claim in element 'I)':



.. There is a lot of benefit to be had from this boost. And as far as I can tell, there are no cons.

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Inkheart

DMs can, and will, do this already. However, DMs are not omnipresent, and stuff goes unmissed until they slip up.

Since we're in GD, I'd like to ask you a question Zykritch:

Do you use the job system?

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I'm hoping we can get it moved back to IA, so if you want to talk about it IG or via PMs instead, here, we can. (It'd be preferred.) But for the record, yes, I do.

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Inkheart

I actually want to shift this discussion into the more practical again. In my opinion, there's no clear concensus on whether "hunt xp" is fine or too little, so let me throw something in here.

Under the assumption that the current xp from hunting will not be significantly changed, what alternatives could be created to offer a viable alternative to players who don't enjoy hunting/grinding but still want their characters to progress levelwise?

The Job System
Now, we do have a job system that offers some xp and gold reward. It's clunky and I do know it's under revision, so let's not talk about its merits or flaws in general but rather its position as a source of xp and gold. Personally I'm a bit undecided on this. There's absolutely no reason your character should become a powerful wizard or fighter by picking apples all day. On the other hand, why wouldn't a character be able to get to, say, level 10 by using the Man-at-Arms or Historian jobs?

I think in this it would be interesting for job xp rewards to be dependent on your class - so a Rogue would get more XP from the Thief job, a Cleric would get more xp from the Theologer job, a Fighter would get more xp from the Mercenary job, and so forward.

Secondly, the rewards for using the jobs should be less than true adventuring UNLESS they also carry the same challenges, perhaps in an abstract form. I don't know what is currently on the table, but an Alchemist might have a choice between brewing simpler, safer, cheaper potions and creating more profitable but unstable concoctions - which have a higher chance of causing all sorts of mishaps. A thief could choose to burgle a low-profit dwelling with little risk, or try to rob a mansion - with a chance of discovery (failure) and being ported into a room full of hostile guards. Woops.

Overall, the job system would be an excellent alternative to hunting (it currently isn't) but it needs sufficient depth to fit the risk/reward idea. Would it be unfair compared to those who grinded their way? Not at all, for the simple reason that the people that have never done the hunting/grinding never learned how to play their character in pvp/pve. I for one have no idea how to play my character in combat.

Roleplay Rewards
We currently have the Dream Coin system which works very well. My character went from level 20 to 30 almost exclusively on Dream Coins. I approve of this system, though a critical review might reveal some flaws. It's open for discussion.

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Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"

What do you people think is a reasonable time to take to get to the "endgame", in terms of questing/grinding? That is, how much time should a PC spend leveling (irrespective of how long streaks of no-XP RP they do in the middle) to 30? 10 hours? 20 hours? 40 hours?

Most solid single-player RPGs these days offer 20-50 hours of content. Speedrunning can be done in a matter of hours. Should a single Amia "playthrough" be shorter or longer than that? Should there be more content to explore on several playthroughs/characters but faster shortcuts to the endgame when you've seen it all, or should a new character always be a big investment?

In terms of hours (days or weeks is awfully inprecise, given that some people do all-nighters and others log on for a few hours), how long does a single "playthrough" to 30 take you?

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Given the surplus of benefits to an XP boost and the fact that no one has provided any measure of cons, I'm not giving up the suggestion, as it's very much so a strong one. Regarding the job system, I think it has room for improvement, sure. It's beneficial. But it isn't a good alternative to XP changes as of now. It'd take too long to implement, and even with immediate implementation, it unfortunately requires a fair bit of game knowledge to utilize. New players won't know where to acquire resources, let alone how to actually craft things. And even then, the aspect of leveling being 'tedious' remains. Sadly this doesn't solve any of the posed problems in the OP. It's.. technically not an alternative at all. Just an 'add on'.

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Inkheart

My only point on this is that currently, assuming you hit your level on the dot, it takes 3 1/2 dream coins per level to level. In my honest opinion, a DC should be giving half the xp for the gap between levels, so 2 DCs per level. In this point of view, those who have been rewarded can level up via this system. This is not all win-win, it comes at the flaw of not gaining as much gp as you would hunting and gear would become defunct faster.

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My suggestion: Allow DC's to be used as a REQUEST for getting to X lvl. Currently if you lvl through the use of DC's you spend 4 per lvl. Meaning if you want to get to lvl 30 you need to spend: 4x30 = 120 DC's (Minus 12 DC's as we basically start at lvl 3 if doing one easy quest in start). And we all know there are other stuff we want to get with our DC's. Though, I've spend more than 100 DC's for lvling already, which I regret to this day.

Why could we not roleplay training or just interact and receive DC's which we could then use to request getting to lvl 30 with proper and affordable DC amount instead. I know DM's are sometimes giving XP during events, which is great! But enabling us to request getting to certain lvl, as requesting any DC's thing in Request forums. Could help us to focus on roleplaying and getting to lvl 30 someday. Enabling those players who hate level grinding, like me, to do what they enjoy the most in Amia. Roleplaying and interacting with others. I could finally keep roleplaying an apprentice wizard, for example, who is actually being taught by a higher lvl wizard. Through this rp, I get DC's occasionally and once I have enough, I can request to be lvled to lvl, say, 20 for X amount of DC's.

The current system of burning DC's is simply too high price to pay. You spend 4 DC's for each lvl. I am lucky if I get 2 DC's per week. And, I personally, would like to use those DC's to request content for my character, whether it be widgets, custome feats/spells or simply rp items.

EDIT: OR 3.5 DC x 27 = 94.5 DC's.. Anyhow, a big sum of DC's for getting there.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

The con to an XP boost is not having the time to enjoy the module and the way to 30. I am legitimately disappointed when I notice my lowbie has leveled too fast to visit some areas I've never seen for any meaningful reward. The problem (that is being addressed to some exent) is that the same leveling speed/area ratio does not persist all the way to 30.

Ideally, Amia's XP gain should be calculated so that a character does not have to do a single area twice. If you complete 80% of quests and go through 80% of the module's hunting areas once, that ought to enough XP to reach 30. I think that is something to work towards, but it is a big project and may require some areas and quests to be more challenging than they are now.

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I'd say 48 hours. This isn't significantly shorter than it takes (as is) for a playthrough to 30, but it keeps it low enough that with RL time-based restrictions people can still get to 30 in a time frame that isn't excruciating and doesn't require ridiculous levels of commitment.

On a mathematical level, assuming a player is getting max 2 hours per day to level, that'd be 24 days total, for about 3.4 weeks to hit level 30. If you double that and assume they get 4 hours a day to level, it'd take them 1.7 weeks to get to level 30. This gives people plenty of time to roleplay, and it's a reasonable time-based threshold/goal that isn't so painful and cringe-worthy that people decide not to make a new character at all.

.. Although to be quite frank I'd even be favor of something shorter, like 36. As 3.4 weeks is still a good month. And that's not exactly far off from what we have currently.

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Inkheart

It's actually 3 DC per level, but I see your point. I wouldn't mind seeing 2 DC per level. Nice compromise. In 4 years here, I've only received about 60 DCs, so... with that in mind, I couldn't even level one pc to 30.

I can understand and agree with this as well. What I'm looking for now (and hoping we can find via this thread) is a solution that we can implement right away, and hold onto in the meanwhile UNTIL the devs & DMs can add in something more intricate & complex (such as new quest lines and so on) .. And with that, a solution to your dilemma and disappointment @ having leveled too fast: i.e. a player controlled XP income restriction (much like the XP block) that lets you restrict yourself to lower xp per kill than the default of the area.

.. So, you're the first to list a con, and it's one I acknowledge. But it's (as far as I can tell) fixable, and until that point, I believe the sheer number of benefits outweigh the flaw. It'd satisfy a very large number of players in return.

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Inkheart

Adding to this, I've sung praises about it every time, but the Spine of the World 3-day long event saw DMs giving levels to all characters involved in the each massive battle with a level up, but sadly I haven't seen any other initiatives in person since.

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Interesting. I'd actually go even lower than 48 hours. I think an hour of grinding per level is reasonable.

The problem is, of course, that XP gain per minute varies dramatically between players and parties, depending on how well they optimise the grind. I also do not like the idea of getting to 30 overnight.

A possible solution would be to cap daily XP gain so that you can hit the cap relatively fast but can't level beyond that. However, that would decrease the number of potential leveling-buddies as many would have already hit their cap for the day. To address this, you could have an XP bank into which you could store XP after you hit the cap, but it would trickle down to you over a longer period (and count towards later daily caps) so that you would level automatically from stored XP when you're online, according to some formula. That means you could store enough XP to get to 30 with a vicious two-day grind, but it would only be applied over a period of, say, two weeks.

It seems awfully complicated to address the issue, though. Maybe people hitting 30 overnight isn't an issue that needs addressing, at all.

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That's actually a phenomenal idea. It sounds like a really good system too. Balanced, above all else. But yes, complex, unfortunately. I'm inclined to say that getting 30 overnight isn't a problem, in all honesty. But I know that isn't an opinion too many people will think well of. From experience, though, I've played on a number of servers in which it was possible, and I've not once, ever.. seen cons to the server as a result. Each server had it's strong wealth of success, a high player count, and quality enjoyment for the playerbase.

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An hour per level sounds great. And it sounds like something that new players would appreciate, as it gives them definitive goals to hit and set for themselves. After playing a few hours (any player) would feel and see their progress, even when leveling alone, I'd imagine. And that'd give them both motivation and incentive to continue playing (and to not be afraid of making new characters). One hour per level would put it at 30 hours to hit level 30, 15 days @ 2 hrs per day, 7.5 days @ 4 hours per day. That's on average 1-2 weeks which is still a pretty good time-frame. And even then, it may very well take even longer than that, for most, as there's no guarantee of a strong or plentiful party.

^ I support this in full, to be quite frank.

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I think a merging of a few of these ideas would be ideal:

A) For now, implement an XP boost sufficient enough to set the average leveling rate at 1 level per hour.
B) Continue working on a solid quest-line that makes it easy for new players to pick up the game and understand where they're going, and what to do.
C) Consider extending the +/- 5 level cap between players for leveling, to allow a greater diversity of players to IC'ly roleplay through the 'training' phase together.
D) Consider giving more realistic XP rewards for Dream Coins, that way those who choose a route of prioritizing roleplay over grinding or rewarded well enough to be at least remotely on par with those who just farm normally.

E) .. Make changes accordingly, depending on how the first few weeks/months go with the new, and only immediate change.

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Inkheart

To not clog my unrelated post above:

I suspect optimal leveling on Amia already is about as fast as you would like it to be, though. The problem is finding the people with matching schedules and the know-how to make it happen, on a consistent basis. I have been in parties that easily grind a level in an hour, and I have been in amorphous groups that hunted off and on for an entire day without gaining a level (especially if it involved respawning). It is this inconsistency of XP gain, rather than its optimal rate, that one ought to address (and there have been some good suggestions above).

I don't think there's any issue so dramatic as to require immediate emergency measures, though. If you do decide to boost the XP rate, though, let me know and I'll come grind a few concepts I have in the back of my mind to 30 for future play. >_>

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