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[ 24 posts ] |
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Mercedes
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 Posted: Mon, Jan 19 2015, 20:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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Couple dragon questions not covered (as far as I know) in the Draconomicon or other sourcebooks ...
1) If Dragon biology is just highly magical mammalian biology (warm blooded, limb structure/position, etc), despite scales, eggs, and other reptilian features, does that mean they operate more like mammals than reptiles? Or was this something someone threw in just to make them more unique as a creature? I think they're just magical lizards in a lot of other settings.
2) If a Druid shapeshifted into a Dragon via the feat and ate an orc, then shifted back into a human-- what would happen?
3) Where do the strange racial tendencies Dragonkin possess come from? Where they designed that way from the outset? They've awfully more compulsive than a lot of creatures by nature alone.
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serbiris
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Posted: Mon, Jan 19 2015, 21:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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1) What do you mean "operate more like mammals", exactly? Their behaviour is fairly extensively detailed in Draconomicon. They obviously need to be endothermic because they're clearly producing a lot of energy - mainly to power the breath weapon, their brains, and also to brave the various climates. Mammals are not the only endothermic creatures btw - birds too, which share the similarity of being winged.
2) It varies depending on who's running the encounter. I once played a Rashemi barbarian in a tabletop game who fed a keg of jhuild (firewine - that's about 500 pints equivalent) to a shapeshifted dragon. It died of massive brain haemorrhaging. And from said barbarian PC exploding out of it when it shifted down to manshape. The rule of thumb might be "if it's alive, it retains its original size. If it's not alive, it shifts with the shifter", but you'll need a DM to say for sure. It's probably best /not/ to do it either way though.
3) Can you be more specific about the racial tendencies? Like the hoarding, the alignment stuff? Well, yeah I guess that's just "how they were designed", dragons very much channel the ideal of hoarding beasts in the real-world mythology. The alignment stuff I /think/ has to do with their gods.
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@Thanatopsis#6293
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Mercedes
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Posted: Mon, Jan 19 2015, 21:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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For the first: I did not mean behavior as much as I did other things that are more distinct to mammals and other non-reptilian creatures. I suppose a good solution would be to just stop thinking of them as "either/or" and just let them being fictitious magical creatures who do their own thing.  The third: I did mean the alignment features as much as the behavioral tendencies. For example, when a Dragon Disciple goes further down their path, they not only shift more towards the alignment of their ancestor but also begin to get the habits of the parent group without having needing any real exposure or environmental stimuli to set it up. Was it a divine thing.. "I am this way and thus these dragonspawn will be this way" that kind of deal?
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Jes
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Posted: Mon, Jan 19 2015, 23:02 PM |
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DM
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Location: Camriiole
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It's more an inherent thing. Blood and magic and the magic in the blood. You have to be a sorcerer or bard to take Dragon Disciple, which means you have to have inherent magical talent. That also makes it clear that the dragon blood itself is inherently magical.
Religion has nothing to do with it, as far as Disciples are concerned. A Banite Fighter who discovers he has gold dragon blood and decides to awaken that blood for the power it promises will, assuming he takes lots of levels of DD, no longer be a suitable Banite. But he doesn't have to convert to Bahamut or any dragon god. He can serve some elf god or human god and be just as Gold Dragon Disciple as ever.
In the case of #3, the answer actually is "Magic".
I'll expand a little on the rest when I get home from work!
_________________ Login: The Copper Queen
Cromlech - The Best Copper This Side of Ruathym
Zelly Cys'dina - The Wounded Soul, Also Merchant
Aelynthi Nor'alei - The Bubbly Winged Elf
See me DM-side as:
[DM] Hlal | [DM] The Voice
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serbiris
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Posted: Mon, Jan 19 2015, 23:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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I think that is understood - we're just looking at /why/ the dragons themselves are so strongly predisposed towards those alignments in the first place. The only answer seems to be in religion - there are various tales about the reasons behind Bahamut and Tiamat's alignment, and Io's neutrality, along with the implication that the corresponding dragon types (metallic and chromatic, respectively) follow their divine ancestor on the moral scale. The ethical (law/chaos) side is a little less clear and mayhaps has more to do with Io being the Ninefold Dragon or something. As well why each colour holds that particular alignment - if there is indeed a reason, and there may well not be.
_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293
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Jes
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Posted: Mon, Jan 19 2015, 23:33 PM |
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DM
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Location: Camriiole
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That doesn't really sound like the kind of information puny humanoids would know or find out without divine intervention or excessive dissection and analysis. Potentially fun to do IC? Otherwise, I'll let a DM decide if that's something for the Lore forum. Sounds like a ruling requirement to me. _________________ Login: The Copper Queen
Cromlech - The Best Copper This Side of Ruathym
Zelly Cys'dina - The Wounded Soul, Also Merchant
Aelynthi Nor'alei - The Bubbly Winged Elf
See me DM-side as:
[DM] Hlal | [DM] The Voice
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Ice
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Posted: Tue, Jan 20 2015, 0:54 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Location: Usa
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We could argue that dragons are how they are simply because they were designed to be that way.
A lot of creatures in DnD are just a reflection of their mythical creation - some have grow habits and quirks over the time, evolving their cultures further, and some simply seem to have remained the same has they always been, and the dragons seem to fit the latter category.
But who's to say this is for certain? Perhaps originally the metallics and chromatics were around the center and not just in the four corners of alignment, perhaps hoarding was frowned upon. The myths of creation are that, myths.
The actual answer for the third question is, in fact, nature.
It is in their nature to be how they are.
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Kamina
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Posted: Tue, Jan 20 2015, 17:42 PM |
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DM
Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Location: Kent, England.
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Mind if I hijack and ask a dragon-related question?
Someone please explain Half-Dragons to me.
It may be strange to ask, but how does the birthing process work? Would depending on the Dragon or the Humanoid bearing the child have any effect on the birth? Would a female dragon lay an egg with the half-dragon in an egg and a humanoid birth it their way? Would the "second" part of the half-dragon affect their appearance? (Such as, would a Half-Dragon Orc be noticeably bigger than a Half-Dragon Halfling?)
_________________  "Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
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666WaysToHell
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Posted: Tue, Jan 20 2015, 17:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Western Australia
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I'd wager that the Half-Dragon is born of the humanoid mother, with it's features undeveloped (as to not complicate the birth and kill the mother) but then gradually develop as the child grows develops up until adulthood.
I can't see a true dragon giving birth to a half-dragon in an egg. Hilarious, it may be.
That's my logic-and-sense belief, not sure if cannon even says anything about birthing half-dragons. Or anything to do with birth at all.
_________________
Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.
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Kamina
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Posted: Tue, Jan 20 2015, 17:52 PM |
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DM
Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Location: Kent, England.
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666WaysToHell wrote: not sure if cannon even says anything about birthing half-dragons. Or anything to do with birth at all. Yeah, I've been digging but it seems like it's non-existent in official sources. _________________ "Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
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serbiris
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Posted: Tue, Jan 20 2015, 17:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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The latter question is easiest to answer because it's in the rules - half-dragon is a template, and the base creature keeps its size. Large creatures (such as ogres) even grow wings, though medium creatures don't (according to Core anyway, Amia may do it different).
Of the former - it doesn't say that female dragons are incapable of producing half-dragons, or that only male dragons can impregnate, so I presume that either A. The female dragon maintains their humanoid form (only some dragons can do this) or B. they just lay an egg. I don't see why not. Just default to the female's standard racial birthing mechanism.
_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293
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Kamina
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Posted: Tue, Jan 20 2015, 18:00 PM |
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DM
Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Location: Kent, England.
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serbiris wrote: A. The female dragon maintains their humanoid form (only some dragons can do this) In what way is the shapeshifting ability learned from a dragon, out of curiousity? I was aware that much dragon x humanoid impregnation was performed whilst in humanoid form. _________________ "Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
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666WaysToHell
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Posted: Tue, Jan 20 2015, 18:11 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Western Australia
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They're innately magical creatures, being able to physically morph into humanoids would be trivial. But you also need to remember, the half-dragon is still half-human, and needs the similar kind of sustenance an unborn human does. Unless, of course, a Dragon egg is basically a portable womb?
_________________
Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.
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Kamina
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Posted: Tue, Jan 20 2015, 18:16 PM |
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DM
Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Location: Kent, England.
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If we're looking in to RL egg-layers - the egg they're placed in feed the bulk nutrients to the baby while they're developing to hatch. A wyrmling wouldn't be smaller than a humanoid baby, so I could actually see a dragon egg housing one.
Surprisingly though, if this were the case, the child would be without a belly-button I'd imagine.
Anyhow, luckily what I'm considering would be male dragon, so that solves a big issue.
_________________ "Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
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Kamina
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Posted: Tue, Jan 20 2015, 18:16 PM |
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DM
Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Location: Kent, England.
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If we're looking in to RL egg-layers - the egg they're placed in feed the bulk nutrients to the baby while they're developing to hatch. A wyrmling wouldn't be smaller than a humanoid baby, so I could actually see a dragon egg housing one.
Surprisingly though, if this were the case, the child would be without a belly-button I'd imagine.
Anyhow, luckily what I'm considering would be male dragon, so that solves a big issue.
_________________ "Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
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666WaysToHell
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Posted: Tue, Jan 20 2015, 18:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Western Australia
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Well, if that's the case, sweet.
_________________
Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.
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DireCorbie
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Posted: Tue, Jan 20 2015, 18:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Dec 2013
Location: MY CAVE
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As "portable" as eggs can be, that's basically their purpose. The source of nutrition is the yolk, and dragon eggs likely have more than enough sustenance for a hybrid child.
EDIT: aaah posted too late. Also yes, no bellybuttons, at least in the adult stage. At the juvenile stage, half dragons might have a tiny scar where the yolk was once attached to the abdomen, like in birds.
_________________ Amalyth Le'Quella
Esenne
Last edited by DireCorbie on Tue, Jan 20 2015, 18:23 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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666WaysToHell
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Posted: Tue, Jan 20 2015, 18:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Western Australia
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All I know is yolk is delicious when cooked, didn't realise it was intricate biology. Learn something new everyday. 
_________________
Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.
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Solvaras
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Posted: Tue, Jan 20 2015, 21:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Mar 2011
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To answer number 2: Quote: When the polymorph occurs, the creature's equipment, if any, transforms to match the new form. If the new form is a creature who does not use equipment, the equipment melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional That's the line about equipment from the polymorph other spell that shapechange references in the player's handbook. So it should merge when you go back to human form. The only things that wont merge are things that have a wildling clasp attached to them. That's why to use items while you shift to something in pen and paper you either have to have a clasp or drop it to the ground before you shift. Think about it this way. Shapechange lets you change to a flea. If as a human you had just ate a hot dog, you wont explode due to the hot dog being in your stomach. Same thing with a dragon and an orc. Nothing would happen.
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Mercedes
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Posted: Tue, Jan 20 2015, 23:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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That seems reasonable. What would happen to it the ingested whatever? Shift with you and become a part of your whole in some form or another?
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serbiris
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Posted: Wed, Jan 21 2015, 0:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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I maintain that while inanimate matter shifts with the shifter, still-living matter does not. Kids, don't swallow live orcs. Bite their heads off first. 666WaysToHell wrote: They're innately magical creatures, being able to physically morph into humanoids would be trivial. But you also need to remember, the half-dragon is still half-human, and needs the similar kind of sustenance an unborn human does. Unless, of course, a Dragon egg is basically a portable womb? Only some specific dragon types can actually do this - most of the metallics, I believe. They can switch to humanoid form basically at will (possibly after a certain age). The rest have to cast Polymorph to change into human shape. I don't know why this is. It's a bit silly. They also don't typically get spells higher than 6th level (at their highest age category) without taking class levels (which jives weirdly with the way their CR rises with age, IMO), so they're not just oozing magic out of every orifice despite the fluff.
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@Thanatopsis#6293
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Ice
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Posted: Wed, Jan 21 2015, 1:54 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Location: Usa
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This amuses me, so I'll drop my two coppers.
Of the most normal dragon bunch, only LG dragons have the Alternate Self ability - but naturally, every dragon has the potential to cast your standard shapeshifting spells.
Whilst the idea of a half-dragon being hatched instead of born the old way makes me scream heresy, anti-natural!, I don't really find it impossible. I don't think I've read anywhere (Excluding the vile Book of Erotic Fantasy) that they couldn't, but the absolutely lack of any mention about it is suggests otherwise. It's the kind of stuff that falls to the Team to roll their 1d2 and say "it's this way" - but don't get be wrong, I find the idea infinitely interesting. It sure makes a lot more sense than trying to argue all the polymorph-while-pregnant jazz.
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Luckbringer
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Posted: Wed, Jan 21 2015, 4:42 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Location: The frozen north
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The freakiest thing I noticed about half-dragons when browsing through the races of the dragon source book was that the half-dragon template could be applied to any living creature. So apprently dragons are happy to mate with anything that moves, the kinky bastards. It cites examples of a half-deep dragon monsterous spider and a half-bronze dragon tiger..
It doesn't mention much about the actual mechanics of the sexual act, such as shape changing, except for the example of the silver dragons elf fetish i.e. turning into an elf to get some. But it does mention that it is usually the non-dragon parent which is usually left holding the baby which is in most cases the mother. So that more or less answers some of the biology questions about how the half-dragon is born, via the non-dragon female side. I'm still not sure how dragons breed with spiders.
_________________ aaegus battlehammer™ cloak rockhewer murtaugh gunn
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NinjaClarinet
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Posted: Wed, Jan 21 2015, 7:34 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2010
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Polymorph, mostly. Arachnids that utilize external fertilization are probably a simpler matter. Just takes a twisted dragon and some dragon-lotion.
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