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Blue Moon
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 Posted: Fri, Nov 14 2014, 21:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2012
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My problem is how easy it is to get up and walk away after being dead or even respawning. *Heal myself* *Emote one groan* ALRIGHT LET'S GO BACK TO FIGHTING AND JOGGING
Until we figure out this restriction here or that freedom there, involving mechanics and blah blah... why not add flavor and make death/recovery more strongly roleplayed? I'm totally guilty of being in the dungeon zone and brushing it off
After respawning or being raised I'd love to have a series of floaty emotes reminding me what it feels like to come back from the motherfucking dead.When you respawn or raise: "You are slow and sluggish, you feel cold and shaken to your core."
Maybe a table of a few randomly different generated emotes, example: "This time you thought you saw a long-lost, special someone... or terrifying someone..."
You can even add a movement speed decrease or a bit of a 'curse' effect that's temporary and won't go away until, idk, 2 minutes or a rest. It's stupid when people can go skipping or full-fighting literally seconds after death.
Obviously not everyone's character is gonna be a tiny mouse when facing death. But it's good to have something to 'bounce off of.'/ emote off of. A tough guy can emote being slow but acting tough, etc.
Think about when a DM sends you a tell about a sensation... you are ready to bounce off that and emote so hard. So hard! Bring on the drama!
I don't know exactly what my character should feel, or have 'remembered' after death, because I don't have a whole lot of FR knowledge yet, and I've yet to see anyone else except 1 person really roleplay it. It should be super obvious and common knowlege. Did I read once you can't remember what happened 5 minutes before dying? lol never seen anyone roleplay that.
I feel like every character should feel REALLY disturbed after dying and become 'that guy in the group who seems like he wants to go home.' I've fainted before. Does it feel like fainting? The rest of my day was basically ruined/traumatized.
_________________ Playing Jovianne UndonDevout of The Healer " [SocksOnFeet] Arabella Amakiir: [Talk] That girl got buns, hon. " 
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001182811
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Posted: Sat, Nov 15 2014, 0:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2014
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i think this is a great idea !
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OpenTheRift
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Posted: Sat, Nov 15 2014, 0:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2014
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001182811 wrote: i think this is a great idea ! good bump to a necropost bini xP
_________________
bad man
Last edited by OpenTheRift on Sat, Nov 15 2014, 0:22 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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msheeler
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Posted: Mon, Nov 17 2014, 17:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Location: eastern USA
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After talking a bit with Silke, I think it was, I've been toying with something along those emote lines. However the thought I have is this: 1.Redesign of the fugue plane to give it a better 'feel' of death and the beyond with new PLCs, lighting, sounds, music etc.
2. Place flavor triggers in the fugue that tell people what death should / could feel like.
"A bitter could sinks into the pit of your being, a cold with out hope for warmth"
"You step forward, but you don't so much step as simply move"
"How much time has slipped by? Minutes, hours, days? Does it matter?"
3. Upon death all PCs have an immediate fade to black and are moved to the fugue plane leaving a corpse object behind.
4. Anyone casting resurrection/raise dead/ etc. would simply teleport the PC back from the fugue plane.
5. Where the re-spawn points are you can be given the choice to re spawn, wait for a raising, or choose to perma kill your PC and have them auto archived.
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Kenneth
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Posted: Mon, Nov 17 2014, 17:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2011
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I've always liked the corpse idea, and teleporting to the fugue. It would also help me w/ my #1 problem when I die - I often don't know what killed me, because I can't scroll up while the screen is locked at death, and by the time I am resurrected, I've stopped caring. 
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Kudark
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Posted: Mon, Nov 17 2014, 18:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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msheeler, I really like that proposal, and has my vote. It will prevent a lot of metagaming too, for when dead, we cant see what's going on anyway. (But it's fun to watch!)
"But now I won't be able to emote my character's corpse stiffening, and releasing its bladder!" Some will say, and I myself have enjoyed doing it too, but it's a small price to pay for making death mean a little more to us all.
And think of the OOC bonding that will be created, as the dead talk about the gruesome nature of their demise, and show off the battle wounds, some still gushing steaming blood, or cupcakes, sometimes the dead talk about cupcakes.
_________________ 
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Zanthair
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Posted: Mon, Nov 17 2014, 19:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: [st]Ultrinnan[/st] [st]Edonil[/st] Nec'perya
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Kudark wrote: msheeler, I really like that proposal, and has my vote. It will prevent a lot of metagaming too, for when dead, we cant see what's going on anyway. (But it's fun to watch!)
"But now I won't be able to emote my character's corpse stiffening, and releasing its bladder!" Some will say, and I myself have enjoyed doing it too, but it's a small price to pay for making death mean a little more to us all.
And think of the OOC bonding that will be created, as the dead talk about the gruesome nature of their demise, and show off the battle wounds, some still gushing steaming blood, or cupcakes, sometimes the dead talk about cupcakes. perhaps we can add in a system for sending custom emotes to the corpse. You talk to the skeleton NPC, click the 'send emote to corpse' button, say your emote, and then your corpse does it actually that sounds p stupid but whatever
_________________
Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare'
Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia
Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words
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Tyrak
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Posted: Mon, Nov 17 2014, 23:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 31 Oct 2014
Location: In Falsetto
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Corpse systems are neat; they've been done before, and they work. If they're moveable, they also give you the option of bringing your fallen comrade back to a town for a healer, which can make for some neat RP.
The only argument I've heard against it, though, is that it makes your death kind of reliant on the body. Ergo, if someone kills you and dumps your body in, say, a trash can, you're pretty much screwed.
I don't think this is something we necessarily need to be too concerned about, since a lot of that is actually valid RP, but we may want to keep things like that in mind if we start working to implement such a system. Make sure there aren't any particularly vicious OOC loopholes.
_________________ Currently Playing:
- Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
- Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard
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Ice
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 0:00 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Location: Usa
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And nobody paid two coppers to the pair of legs that were coming out of the trash can in the middle of Cordor
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666WaysToHell
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 0:47 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Western Australia
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What about server crashes or lag time outs? If the server crashes, it will remove the corpse plc. And no time does the server crash during a massive player event where a lot of PCs die!
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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.
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Tyrak
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 0:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 31 Oct 2014
Location: In Falsetto
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666WaysToHell wrote: What about server crashes or lag time outs? If the server crashes, it will remove the corpse plc. And no time does the server crash during a massive player event where a lot of PCs die! Though you make a point, I think our current death system ressurrects players upon server crash/reset anyway. (You could technically just wait in the Fugue for a reset.) So it would not really be any more or less inconvenient/abusable than it is now. _________________ Currently Playing:
- Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
- Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard
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Kudark
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 2:27 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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Characters are not automatically resurrected at reset.
_________________
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666WaysToHell
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 10:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Western Australia
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They can resurrect freely after a reset, however only if you log into the same server you had died on.
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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.
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Broldi
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 11:03 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Dec 2012
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Quote: 3. Upon death all PCs have an immediate fade to black and are moved to the fugue plane leaving a corpse object behind. I like it. -IF- the corpse can be picked up and taken around. Regardless of player consent. If the player doesn't like it, good, you're not supposed to like death. Now suffer at the hands of the merciful/less creep who decides where to raise you. I think it would be cool if you were alerted in the fugue that your body has been moved too. But I don't know if that fits into lore, but I feel as if lore is a very touchy subject with this any way. Also, as Might'n'Magic said, if you respawn where you died. 1HP. No excuses. You just miraculously came back from death, whilst we're at it, put heal pots on CD too. I've seen people raise and insta-pot too many times, just bounce to their feet "Hey guys, that was a blast!"
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MAURICE "THE JUGGERNAUT" GRAFF
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Elorathall
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 11:07 AM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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Would it be possible to script a sort of resurrection "jetlag"? In that after your character has been raised or resurrected, he/she is given a temporary but significent reduction in power (reduction in abilities and/or reduction in ASF and/or level drain and/or slow or whatnot) to represent the harrowing experience of returning to life? If you want to expand on this, I seem to recall Pony writing up a system of injury that allowed for more detailed outcomes depending on the damage type that felled you.
I don't think being "tough" would allow you to shrug off death or critical injury (as I prefer to RP it) all that easily, though perhaps succesful Fort saves can help reduce the duration of this state of "disabled". And perhaps we could introduce a kit that would boost Fort on others (and only on others), tied to the user's Heal skill, to represent medical care and support.
_________________
Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"
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Elorathall
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 11:11 AM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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Broldi wrote: Now suffer at the hands of the merciful/less creep who decides where to raise you. Lorewise, souls are aware of the alignment (and I believe deity) of the priest (and I guess by extension scroll-user) of those trying to raise them, and can refuse to be raised. Hence the value of still trying to take someone alive, hence why subdual damage should be a factor. Of course, there's always Valerius and his chaos witchery.
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Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"
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Terallis
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 14:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Oct 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Elorathall wrote: Would it be possible to script a sort of resurrection "jetlag"? In that after your character has been raised or resurrected, he/she is given a temporary but significent reduction in power (reduction in abilities and/or reduction in ASF and/or level drain and/or slow or whatnot) to represent the harrowing experience of returning to life? If you want to expand on this, I seem to recall Pony writing up a system of injury that allowed for more detailed outcomes depending on the damage type that felled you.
I don't think being "tough" would allow you to shrug off death or critical injury (as I prefer to RP it) all that easily, though perhaps succesful Fort saves can help reduce the duration of this state of "disabled". And perhaps we could introduce a kit that would boost Fort on others (and only on others), tied to the user's Heal skill, to represent medical care and support. I actually really like this idea. I've seen death penalties employed on other servers, even. I mean, as a whole, in D&D, raising the dead like that is most CERTAINLY a harrowing experience. I mean, you lose an entire level each time you are raised. Some things even add more permanent effects, too. Compared to that, some death penalties like you stated would be nothing, but for the sake of the server, they could definitely work. Just... don't employ a system that removes levels. It's nice for D&D, but given how NWN is and the like, it becomes a great annoyance. Especially with having no idea what you're getting into. Like accidentally entering an area that is 10 levels higher than you. Haha! _________________ 
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Elorathall
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 15:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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For some added fun, make the duration of recovery also dependent on character level; the higher level you are, the longer you'll need to recover by default. Lower-level characters tend to be far more squishy and prone to "accidental" death, while higher levels usually have the staying power to soak a bit before croaking.
Besides, give the low-level cannon-fodder something to do.
_________________
Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"
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Terallis
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 16:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Oct 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Elorathall wrote: For some added fun, make the duration of recovery also dependent on character level; the higher level you are, the longer you'll need to recover by default. Lower-level characters tend to be far more squishy and prone to "accidental" death, while higher levels usually have the staying power to soak a bit before croaking.
Besides, give the low-level cannon-fodder something to do. I'd more say to just make the effects permanent until use of something like Restoration or even Greater Restoration. That would also give more use to a lot of the priests/priestesses in all the temples. _________________
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Richard_Edmund
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 19:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
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Broldi wrote: Also, as Might'n'Magic said, if you respawn where you died. 1HP. No excuses. You just miraculously came back from death, whilst we're at it, put heal pots on CD too. I've seen people raise and insta-pot too many times, just bounce to their feet "Hey guys, that was a blast!" Only problem with this, though, is that it would make some events a literal hell to play, which would drain the fun away. Plus, that'd basically mean you're perma-dead until reset if you were raised in the fire giant lair or the frozen wastes due to the constant damage hits in the area)
_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
Discord: Bhaalorian#5715
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Elorathall
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 22:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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Terallis wrote: I'd more say to just make the effects permanent until use of something like Restoration or even Greater Restoration. That would also give more use to a lot of the priests/priestesses in all the temples. Restoration spells and potions are so common as to make this almost pointless.
_________________
Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"
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Broldi
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 23:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Dec 2012
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Richard_Edmund wrote: Broldi wrote: Also, as Might'n'Magic said, if you respawn where you died. 1HP. No excuses. You just miraculously came back from death, whilst we're at it, put heal pots on CD too. I've seen people raise and insta-pot too many times, just bounce to their feet "Hey guys, that was a blast!" Only problem with this, though, is that it would make some events a literal hell to play, which would drain the fun away. Plus, that'd basically mean you're perma-dead until reset if you were raised in the fire giant lair or the frozen wastes due to the constant damage hits in the area) Then would it not do its job? Making dying something to avoid and not shrug off as a speed bump? I'd say that's success, warding people away from the idea of dying. I have quite a 'Hardcore' take on games. Hell, I thought starting from the beginning of levels on most games was a gentle set back.
_________________
MAURICE "THE JUGGERNAUT" GRAFF
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msheeler
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 23:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Location: eastern USA
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Before you get to far, the topic of post respawn effects has come up numerous times and honestly is not something we are likely to see.
I do think that we can definitely look at ways to help people rp death better.
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666WaysToHell
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Posted: Tue, Nov 18 2014, 23:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Western Australia
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Broldi wrote: Richard_Edmund wrote: Broldi wrote: Also, as Might'n'Magic said, if you respawn where you died. 1HP. No excuses. You just miraculously came back from death, whilst we're at it, put heal pots on CD too. I've seen people raise and insta-pot too many times, just bounce to their feet "Hey guys, that was a blast!" Only problem with this, though, is that it would make some events a literal hell to play, which would drain the fun away. Plus, that'd basically mean you're perma-dead until reset if you were raised in the fire giant lair or the frozen wastes due to the constant damage hits in the area) Then would it not do its job? Making dying something to avoid and not shrug off as a speed bump? I'd say that's success, warding people away from the idea of dying. I have quite a 'Hardcore' take on games. Hell, I thought starting from the beginning of levels on most games was a gentle set back. I think the current system is hardcore as is. If you die (for example, in the fire giant king's lair) you can respawn and wind up in the Fugue with 10% of your total HP, spawning where you fall means you'd have to face the spawns that killed you (with no buffs) but now also face area damage with only 10% HP. But I do think the discussion is actually based around events, where players tend to 'get up and fight' from death. If the DM doesn't like it, they can put a note in pre-battle that death is to be treated appropriately or that PCs can only be raised in certain (safe) places, or whatever suits the DMs wishes. We should promote RP integrity, rather than force it on everyone.
_________________
Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.
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Krin
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Posted: Wed, Nov 19 2014, 1:59 AM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: California
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I think the system is pretty hardcore too. If your character dies during PVM, you're screwed out of a lot of gold. If your character dies during PvP, you can RP with as much or as little detail as you like. I don't think mechanically forcing other people to 'get on your level' because you don't think they're hardcore enough is the right way to go.
We're all guilty of being loose with our interpretation of death when it's convenient. I've seen plenty of great roleplayers, including some of the ones advocating for harsher penalties here, have their character shrug off death with a healing potion then charge right back into battle during events. I've also seen the same people go into marathon emotes describing exactly how pained those same characters are after being resurrected in other situations. I've done it too...because it's convenient.
Who wants to RP their character's gasping breaths and dizziness when the DM is about to spawn another horde of demons/orcs/undead whales/whatever that are just going to kill the character again anyway? It gets tiresome during events where PCs will die 5 times in fifteen minutes, especially if they're on the front lines.
This is a game and it should be fun to play. Making it harder for people who don't want to go full-hardcore because the ones that already do want mechanics to back up their emotes is only going to make things less fun.
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Tyrak
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Posted: Wed, Nov 19 2014, 7:41 AM |
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Player
Joined: 31 Oct 2014
Location: In Falsetto
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Resurrection sickness is a fairly common theme in D&D, and one that is backed up by the lore, last I checked. I always appreciate when I see it roleplayed, and try to do so myself. It's quite good RP.
That said, I suppose I can understand that not everyone is interested in that. Although I will argue against the current death system being particularly "hardcore". Unless a DM has gotten involved, I have never felt particularly at risk after death. It's only an issue if you're trying to solo something (in which case there are workarounds). The penalty is also pretty far on the weak side for resurrecting. You're only going to feel it if you're dying four or five times in a row, and... let's face it, if you're doing that, you're doing something wrong.
A resurrection sickness effect would definitely up the challenge a little if we wanted that. All depends on the community's wants. You could do all sorts of things, from temporary weaknesses to... Say, a very short Daze effect. (Which I recommend since it prevents someone from getting raised and immediately running full-speed away to go re-buff and heal. Need to heal them in relative safety.) You could even increase the gold penalty if we're still looking for gold sinks, as the topic suggests. That's a good way to start.
But, again, it all depends on what everyone wants as a community. There's a lot of options, though, so it's nice to consider them.
As for the moveable corpse placeable item thing suggestion, I'm for it as well. As many have pointed out, it's got a lot of perks. Preventing potential metagaming, making death seem more "real" in that you cannot see or hear while dead, allowing someone to move the corpse to raise it later if needed (which is both convenient and great for RP), allowing for evil shenanigans... Yeah, there's lots of benefits to it. And I don't see a lot of drawbacks, since it doesn't really affect difficulty at all. (For the nay-sayers out there. =P)
_________________ Currently Playing:
- Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
- Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard
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Terallis
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Posted: Wed, Nov 19 2014, 13:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Oct 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Another interesting thought (though, I'm unsure how well it would be recieved) is a soul gem system. I actually have played a few servers that used such a thing. One being a server I spent around 8 years on, too. Essentially, with the soul gem system, characters would start off with a set number of soul gems. As they level up, they gain more (1 each level). There would also be a secret location where, at the cost of a lot of gold and XP, a person could purchase more. The overall point of soul gems, however, is to gauge how many "lives" a person has, overall. If you die, you lose a soul gem. If you lose all of your soul gems, the character is permadead. As I had said, I'm unsure how well this would be received, but with some of the systems already on Amia, it's possible to even expand on this. Trade in DCs for soul gems at a certain cost value, for instance. Just putting my thoughts out there, but something to think about, at least. _________________
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corypx
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Posted: Wed, Nov 19 2014, 17:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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Terallis wrote: Another interesting thought (though, I'm unsure how well it would be recieved) is a soul gem system. I actually have played a few servers that used such a thing. One being a server I spent around 8 years on, too. Essentially, with the soul gem system, characters would start off with a set number of soul gems. As they level up, they gain more (1 each level). There would also be a secret location where, at the cost of a lot of gold and XP, a person could purchase more. The overall point of soul gems, however, is to gauge how many "lives" a person has, overall. If you die, you lose a soul gem. If you lose all of your soul gems, the character is permadead. As I had said, I'm unsure how well this would be received, but with some of the systems already on Amia, it's possible to even expand on this. Trade in DCs for soul gems at a certain cost value, for instance. Just putting my thoughts out there, but something to think about, at least. I think they will just cause more drama, people complain about how only farmers have epic loot and tons of gold(so control the IG market) so if you make it for tons of gold they now control life or permadeath, and making them for DCs is just flawed on a number of levels based off you can only gain DCs from DMs that you might not have many in your time zone,you might not be part of their events...ect so you gain no DCs (meaning you have to use a gold system as it would be the lesser of two evils) _________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE) 
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msheeler
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Posted: Wed, Nov 19 2014, 18:31 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Location: eastern USA
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Tyrak wrote: That said, I suppose I can understand that not everyone is interested in that. This. Amia has it's niche and its not an ultra hardcore RP, lore Nazi, fascist server. Our players enjoy a certain amount of 'creative free will' and we should encourage that along with encouraging enjoyable RP. This topic has been debated to many times to count over the years both here in the public forums and in the designer / DM forums. We're not going to see any new complex death system with new rules and all sorts of penalties designed to instill a fear of death into the players (even though that is something I personally would like to have). However, we can provide tools and settings to players that help inspire and encourage better role playing around death and resurrection / raise dead. That's what I am aiming for. Something that will help the general player get 'in the mood' to RP their recent death and return as well as provide some ideas and lore around death. My mental image of this would be a fitting environment with helpful ideas provided through flavor triggers, PLCs with lore appropriate descriptions provided and an Obelisk of Rules so all players understand the specific rules we want all players to follow concerning death.
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wiggedi2
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Posted: Thu, Nov 20 2014, 16:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Location: Germany
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I think Amia is a great server, you log in, you can spend alot of time on the server farming bosses for epics, get filthy-rich, have amazing RP, a wickedly powerful-character and along that way make a thousand mistakes - without any fear of real loss (except if you're entering an event of course).
Especially when evil fights good (or vice versa), a meaningless death is furstrating. (If anyone knows the TV-Series "Supernatural" and has seen most of the seasons, they may agree with me, that the series lost it's drama, when Sam and Dean started dying all over the place... that's how I feel a little with Amian pve/pvp)
If this is exactly what bugs someone, there are other great servers where death actually means something.
When I attack someone in pvp, I rather not kill them. Exactly because their death would be meaningless. I rather subdue them and put a curse on them or something else. So I guess I'd only actually kill someone in pvp if I knew the death would mean something. Although theoretically my character would never leave anyone alive, considering she is a CE Thrall of Orcus.
I had some ideas, which are quite mean (for the DMs) and should not be undestood as real suggestions, but just ideas I had:
-Making raise dead scrolls only available from DMs (so really hard)
- Reaching the spell circle with raise dead/ressurection takes super super super super long time.
Or another idea: since sorc/wiz have to learn them and clerics learn/pray for them, why not have DM-supervised RP to achieve that kind of spell?
Anyways, I die all the time, I accidently kill party members or myself whilst resting, if all this would have been permanent... I guess someone might already have assassinated me in real life...
_________________ 
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Thu, Nov 20 2014, 16:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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I think the problem, is more that people, simply dont want to rp consequences, rather than a mechanic that dosnt punish them enough.
Imo anyway
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Tyrak
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Posted: Thu, Nov 20 2014, 18:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 31 Oct 2014
Location: In Falsetto
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Kraniumbrud wrote: I think the problem, is more that people, simply dont want to rp consequences, rather than a mechanic that dosnt punish them enough. This does seem to be a big part of it, but, hey, it's their style. Some people aren't that big into it. Personally, I got tired of being able to shrug off things a long time ago; to me, the more the odds are stacked against me, the more of a challenge it is. I love to overcome those challenges, and that's my style of play. However, I grew up playing Zombie Survival servers, which are infamous for being full-permadeath. I'm used to that kind of risk, and used to things being really difficult. I'd say that not only a fraction, but the majority of players do not share this play-style. And in case you were wondering yes this also means I love Dark Souls. I'm that kind of player.It's clear that not all of the community is interested in making the death system more "hardcore", though some of us are. I personally think that it could be made at least a little more severe, simply because it's downright negligible at this point. (It's a minor inconvenience at best, and I feel like death should mean at least a little more than that.) But the others in this thread are right: We've got to keep the whole community in mind. However, I still wholeheartedly support the proposed "corpse system". To me, it seems like it has little but benefits for all parties. Let's do a list! — It doesn't really make the difficulty all that much worse, which is nice for those who aren't into big challenges or stacked odds. — It prevents potential annoyances like metagaming, which is bound to happen at least on occasion with the current system. — It's a bit more convenient for the victim, since your screen isn't locked up by a giant popup. Free to send tells and the like. — It opens up more RP possibilities. Characters who travel with you or find your body can choose what to do with it, including bringing it back to a town or some such. Assassins can do some cool corpse-disposal RP on occasions, which is interesting. And even dead characters can sometimes get some RP out of it, through meeting other dead characters in the Fugue Plane. More interesting opportunities for all. — Finally, it's also a bit more immersive. If you want a subtle, difficulty-unchanging way to help people understand the gravity of death, having them thrust into the Fugue Plane on death and suddenly pulled into the realm of the living later on is a great way to do it. Both OOCly and ICly, you're going to be disoriented, confused, and unsure of what happened while you were gone. It's a subtle way of giving death a greater impact, as opposed to the current "click Wait for Help and watch your buddies fight the monsters" approach. TL;DR, it just helps you really get into it. For all of these reasons, I support a system in which dying sends you to the Fugue and you're raised through a corpse item or placeable of some kind. It's got a lot of benefits, and I know for a fact that it's possible; I've seen it done before and it was done pretty well. And people liked it, too. For a lot of the reasons stated above! _________________ Currently Playing:
- Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
- Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard
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Astro_Black
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Posted: Sun, Nov 23 2014, 3:21 AM |
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Player
Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Location: Sweden
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Tyrak wrote: Kraniumbrud wrote: I think the problem, is more that people, simply dont want to rp consequences, rather than a mechanic that dosnt punish them enough. This does seem to be a big part of it, but, hey, it's their style. Some people aren't that big into it. Personally, I got tired of being able to shrug off things a long time ago; to me, the more the odds are stacked against me, the more of a challenge it is. I love to overcome those challenges, and that's my style of play. However, I grew up playing Zombie Survival servers, which are infamous for being full-permadeath. I'm used to that kind of risk, and used to things being really difficult. I'd say that not only a fraction, but the majority of players do not share this play-style. And in case you were wondering yes this also means I love Dark Souls. I'm that kind of player.It's clear that not all of the community is interested in making the death system more "hardcore", though some of us are. I personally think that it could be made at least a little more severe, simply because it's downright negligible at this point. (It's a minor inconvenience at best, and I feel like death should mean at least a little more than that.) But the others in this thread are right: We've got to keep the whole community in mind. However, I still wholeheartedly support the proposed "corpse system". To me, it seems like it has little but benefits for all parties. Let's do a list! — It doesn't really make the difficulty all that much worse, which is nice for those who aren't into big challenges or stacked odds. — It prevents potential annoyances like metagaming, which is bound to happen at least on occasion with the current system. — It's a bit more convenient for the victim, since your screen isn't locked up by a giant popup. Free to send tells and the like. — It opens up more RP possibilities. Characters who travel with you or find your body can choose what to do with it, including bringing it back to a town or some such. Assassins can do some cool corpse-disposal RP on occasions, which is interesting. And even dead characters can sometimes get some RP out of it, through meeting other dead characters in the Fugue Plane. More interesting opportunities for all. — Finally, it's also a bit more immersive. If you want a subtle, difficulty-unchanging way to help people understand the gravity of death, having them thrust into the Fugue Plane on death and suddenly pulled into the realm of the living later on is a great way to do it. Both OOCly and ICly, you're going to be disoriented, confused, and unsure of what happened while you were gone. It's a subtle way of giving death a greater impact, as opposed to the current "click Wait for Help and watch your buddies fight the monsters" approach. TL;DR, it just helps you really get into it. For all of these reasons, I support a system in which dying sends you to the Fugue and you're raised through a corpse item or placeable of some kind. It's got a lot of benefits, and I know for a fact that it's possible; I've seen it done before and it was done pretty well. And people liked it, too. For a lot of the reasons stated above! QFT I honestly don't get why Amia hasn't implemented this a loong time ago. Still having the vanilla NWN death sequence doesn't make one bit of sense to be honest, not to be rude. Corpse systems adds a LOT to the immersiveness of death IMO. Removing or making raise scrolls more expensive also makes someone dying this way (Corpse system) into a cool hunt for a cleric or someone who can help you raise, or if you have them available as NPCs in town. I miss watching a mellow band of warriors with a corpse or two in tow.
_________________
Main Characters: Rosalind Karpovsky
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serbiris
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Posted: Sun, Nov 23 2014, 6:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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There is no such thing as an immersive death system. It's actually impossible to create immersive death in a video game without causing actual death for the player. The best you can do is imitate other games' ideas of death or cinematic death, but all of them are flawed by the fact that you are not removed from the game permanently (even in games like Rogue-likes which basically erase your character, you can still just make a new one).
Trust me, you don't really want to be immersed in death.
Anyway yeah I don't really follow the optimism surrounding corpse systems, but I don't particularly mind one way or the other. I'm for whichever option leads me to the least amount of boredly staring at the screen and waiting, or having to grind my way back to where I was. I don't like the idea that the only way we can think of to simulate death is to make a game annoying, but at this point it's kind of the nature of the beast.
I suppose I can just log out and play another PC while I wait (assuming my other PC's corpse is still around then, as it probably should be)/
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@Thanatopsis#6293
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Magiros
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Posted: Sun, Nov 23 2014, 12:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
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I just got a timer for dying. I can't respawn till that timer has gone. Is this part of some kind of new death system? Had 280 seconds before respawning.
_________________
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm
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msheeler
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Posted: Sun, Nov 23 2014, 13:31 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Location: eastern USA
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Nope, nothing has been changed yet.
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Ice
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Posted: Sun, Nov 23 2014, 17:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Location: Usa
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Magiros wrote: I just got a timer for dying. I can't respawn till that timer has gone. Is this part of some kind of new death system? Had 280 seconds before respawning. Unconscious, not dead. It happens.
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Tyrak
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Posted: Sun, Nov 23 2014, 21:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 31 Oct 2014
Location: In Falsetto
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There's also a timer until others can resurrect you, after you die. That's also been there for ages. Can't recall how long it is, but it's nothing new.
_________________ Currently Playing:
- Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
- Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard
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Q't'ulu
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Posted: Mon, Nov 24 2014, 9:10 AM |
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Player
Joined: 20 Jun 2012
Location: Russia, St.Petersburg
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IMHO, resurrection sickness is very good thing. But, I prefer it be much longer than few turns -- and with different stages. Like severe (all ability -3, sleep | stun, blind | deaf) - mild (all ability -2, daze) - light (all ability -1), or so on. Second, if permanent death is sooo controversal, why not to left it on player's choice? Personally, I like it, because this makes PC (and player) more active and less fool-hardly careful. But, it may be legacy of my beloved roguelikes... And it promoting teamwork, too. Also, allow some (strictly OOC!) achievment-like badges, like 'Never been killed' or 'That was close' (i.e., "Killed your target while having only 1 Life left.") -- this will pamper some egos, but should not interfere with good RP.
_________________
Evolution by any means!
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Krin
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Posted: Mon, Nov 24 2014, 21:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: California
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serbiris wrote: I don't like the idea that the only way we can think of to simulate death is to make a game annoying, but at this point it's kind of the nature of the beast.
I don't think it should be the nature of the beast. Given the age of the game and the already small player base, I don't think we should be doing things that would game more annoying to play. People tend to RP the severity of death based upon the circumstances surrounding it. People can die 5-10 times in a single DM event if mobs of baddies are being spawned. In the big Reyes battle my character was involved in, people died so much we were running out of Raise Dead scrolls. Those people, all of them great roleplayers, rarely RP'd the deaths with more than a few groan emotes and a healing potion because there was a good chance the character was going to die again in the next swarm of monsters. On the other hand, I've seen a lot of those people playing the same characters go into long, detailed RP surrounding the circumstances of more meaningful deaths that happened in PvP or smaller DM plots. It's basically up to the player now and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If you want death to be heavy and consequential all the time.. maybe lead by example? If your character dies during an event, have him/her sit out the rest of the battle because he/she can barely lift a weapon after being revived. Did your character die out in the wilderness surrounded by bears that would likely eat the body or giants that would dismember it and put it on display? Permadead. Encourage people that go into deeper RP with DC wand recommendations and posts on the forums. Amia's death 'system' can be as light or heavy as you want it to be. I don't think forcing one group's RP preferences on other players is the right way to go.
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Ice
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Posted: Tue, Nov 25 2014, 2:13 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Location: Usa
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And then implement a system of 5% for automatic awards on permadeath. [Sarcasm]
People is free to RP the deaths of their characters however they wish. They can make it a dramatic act each time, or they could try to keep it short and go limping about the way. If you happen to die while hunting with a party, and you obviously and rightfully stop to RP it, there will always be the guy who stays behind and helps the character up, and there is always the guy who rolls the eyes and rushes to the next spawn because the o' so precious perception of xp/minute as they want to powerlevel. The variants change all the time.
There are a few good ideas up there, and a few that I consider terrible, and right now I'll just going to comment on one:
Resurrection sickness. A lil' mechanical cannon (?) system. Not overly hard to implement, and works as a gentle reminder that your character ~really~ got toasted, and not just was like "welp, I'm gonna take a nap for the rest of the fight!".
And yes, one way or another, somebody will always decide to ignore it because The Circumstances Happened.
I cannot answer what do we need to make deaths really meaningful without implementing terrible systems or all agreeing that it needs to be taken to the next level in the OOC, and that's not going to happen.
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The1Kobra
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Posted: Tue, Nov 25 2014, 3:53 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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Whatever happens with the new system, I think there should be some way of differentiating PvP.
For example, you could legally have PvP in the Nomad which is a bar-room brawl, could even have a massive fight where people punch each other out and swing chairs at each other's faces. (Part of me wants to see this sometime!) And yeah, when they hit 0 HP, they're out. But they wouldn't be dead, just KOed like you'd expect from a massive bar fight where people just keep it to fisticuffs and don't bring out their blades. Heck, in South Cordor it's done as a recreational activity by the NPCs. I don't think there should be corpses to raise after such incidents though.
However, it is different if on the road you have a paladin and blackguard trying to smite one another. They're not going to give any quarter there.
Something to keep in mind for the system I think. Personally, I could see the latter situation spawning corpse objects, while the former would work better with the 'old system'.
_________________ I play: 
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Ice
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Posted: Tue, Nov 25 2014, 4:03 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Location: Usa
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Non-lethal scripted weapons. Go.
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Tyrak
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Posted: Tue, Nov 25 2014, 6:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 31 Oct 2014
Location: In Falsetto
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I'm pretty sure there's a PvP Tool in-game for this exact purpose. Isn't there?
Checked. Yeah, there is. Unless it's broken in which case ignore me I'm new heuh.
_________________ Currently Playing:
- Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
- Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard
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Sphinx
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Posted: Tue, Nov 25 2014, 17:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2011
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I think a rather simple (?) fix would be applying 'resurrection debuffs' that stacked with each consecutive death, until the character rested. You can't rest in the middle of a PvM dungeon or PvP spats. The former is inconvenient and the latter is against Amia's rules. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing and would at least partially mitigate the problem, as people see it. As for what those penalties should be, I would lower all physical abilities by -4 each time a PC was floored.
That said, I'm also fond of the corpse idea, so long as it was an actual dead clone of the affected PC and not just a PLC.
_________________
Sion of Nimlith
Shadow Disciple
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Phoosy
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Posted: Fri, Dec 05 2014, 5:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Dec 2014
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I'm a fan of a resurrection sickness type of penalty upon death. It encourages players to proceed into encounters with caution and punishes those that are unprepared in a temporary but meaningful way. Those who fall more than once will be encouraged to seek out help for the encounter, fostering seeking out roleplay to complete the challenge or quest. This method both hits the "we need to make death more meaningful" crowd while also appealing to the "we don't want to alienate players by making death too harsh" group. Hardcores and carebears can meet in the middle!
Atop of this, however, is where most people are going to disagree with my opinion, and addresses a possible gold sink: dropping or having gold be burned up upon death. Many people dislike the idea of a monetary punishment for a variety of reasons, but I feel it adds another layer of danger that would possibly encourage players to use that gold before they go out on equipment, donations, or crafting. I'm personally freely open to anything between dropping 100% of your gold outright on death where it can be picked up by you or other players or a percentile burn when choosing to respawn (anywhere between 15% to 50% seems reasonable). This allows the administration to address potentially large gold pools in PCs that make values meaningless in the long run, makes merchandising adventurers more like to hire help or stick with groups (with pay!), and adds another layer of danger and precaution when engaging in potentially lethal encounters. Hit 'em in the wallet and maybe players will be more likely to treat death more seriously.
(Aside note I had while writing below: perhaps implement said system where any of this can be toggled off, such as for the duration of an event? This would totally resolve the "but we don't want to totally make events involving large groups of enemies 'unfun' when we all keep dropping repeatedly" issue that I saw brought up a few times.)
Just as a note: I'm a longtime veteran of perma- or near-perma death servers and found that the inclusion of things that make death easier to overcome (Raise Dead scrolls, high level clerics, easily accessible healing items) also negatively influenced attitudes on player death, either from PvM or PvP. As a newer player, I can already see that death is fairly meaningless and people appear to be vocal about their problem with that but also are being reasonable. Props for doing so on such a sensitive topic.
_________________
"Swords can be underwear, too."
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Elorathall
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Posted: Fri, Dec 05 2014, 8:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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I'm not sure if it's been mentioned or discussed before (if it is, please stop me now), but what about dropping your inventory on death? For a lot of people, potential loss of items is a bigger concern than loss of xp. These items could be subject to "this bag will dissapear after x minutes" (simulating monsters looting your things) to encourage people to party up more, and could of course be looted by other characters. This kind of thing makes actual banditry (which I always felt was missing in Amia) viable. While this suggests a wave of rampant pvp (and potentially griefing), I've seen it handled like this on another server and it worked well enough.
It might also be an indirect solution to the rampant inflation that Amia suffers from. And the relatively higher potential loss for higher level characters means that there's now a genuine strategic place for lower level characters in events and plots.
_________________
Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"
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Murex
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Posted: Fri, Dec 05 2014, 8:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Dec 2009
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The economy is fine in my opinion, now that there are merchant caps. The idea of having inventory drop is a bad idea, and I can't see how it wouldn't promote griefing. Also, epic items are extreeeemely hard to get as it is, so loosing them would be too detrimental, and I know I would be pretty pissed if some of my epic items were lost due to a PvP ganking.
If you want a character to be a thief-like character who steals things, take it up with suggested changes to the Pick Pocket Skill.
I do like the idea of ability penalties upon death, and I think that would be at the very least, the best initial step in making death meaningful.
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Karradon
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Posted: Fri, Dec 05 2014, 8:58 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Jan 2014
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All those suggestions are fine and all, but what about those player that can't group up due to a certain time zone? lately i was only able to play during a time where 5-10~ people are online, and most of them are rarely in range, they are either RP'ing, afk or out of range.
Dropping items or losing much more gold/xp would be devastating for the player in that timezone, it took me ONE month to find someone to play with in the midlevel range (15~)
I don't mean to be rude, but most of those suggestion just encourage powerbuilding or party hunting, i don't mind the second one BUT keep in mind not everyone plays during a time where +50 people are online.
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corypx
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Posted: Fri, Dec 05 2014, 9:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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Elorathall wrote: what about dropping your inventory on death? For a lot of people, potential loss of items is a bigger concern than loss of xp. These items could be subject to "this bag will dissapear after x minutes" (simulating monsters looting your things) to encourage people to party up more, and could of course be looted by other characters. This kind of thing makes actual banditry (which I always felt was missing in Amia) viable. While this suggests a wave of rampant pvp (and potentially griefing), I've seen it handled like this on another server and it worked well enough.
It might also be an indirect solution to the rampant inflation that Amia suffers from. And the relatively higher potential loss for higher level characters means that there's now a genuine strategic place for lower level characters in events and plots. Dropping items on death is a real bad idea, even more so given Amia and how most of its events play out. How many times have people been effected by a event, DM spawned a ton of crap, people died from massive lag then the server crashes. You don't even have to be part of the event for the lag to kill you on top of the crash hitting everyone. The fact A-mia seems to have gotten really unstable with lag spikes...ect (not noticed it on B-mia) so all the items would be trashed and you would be unable to get them back. As for the so called "rampant inflation" that's another thread all together but in short it cant be fixed. _________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
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