First, let me say this: I do realize the insane amount of work the DM's and Dev team put into Amia. I also know the incredible effort on the part of players to make things happen. So, before anyone lashes out at me, read what I write here and listen to what I'm saying, and understand this is coming from someone who loves this game and wishes to keep playing it here, on Amia.

I've noticed in the past year especially, that we seem to be moving toward two things: 1) Removal of dungeon areas, and 2) Increasing the difficulty levels of what is left.

I want to address both of these but first, express why Amia is still here, and why I think these things may be counterproductive to what Amia is, and why we still have players and attract more regularly.

Amia is versatile, and accepts all types of players, everything from the guy who just wants to kill things and collect loot, to the player who wants to become a noble and rule the island through their roleplay power. This is the essence of what makes Amia great. Each and every character, whether they are on the island for a day or a decade impacts it in some way. I think of it like an adventurer's hub, where people come and go and some decide to stay. Others either die, leave, or fade into the background. I think that's a good thing. The transient nature of Amia makes it interesting in some ways. It also hightlights those that don't leave that much more. They become more important over time.

Now, in the past months or year, I've seen the Illithids get removed, thus reducing a boss run, and a great way to gain xp in the 20's. I saw a quest in Guldorand removed (in the crypts). Now with Uhm and the War, A very large quest line is disrupted along the coast and the beginner quest in Cordor is now broken. We did get the Gibberlings, and as great as it is, it's no subsitute for the ones removed. We did get the Ash Caverns, but, as many have said, it's a far cry from the Illithids.

Why are we working so hard to remove areas for folks to level?

Next, adding difficulty. There's talk of a wounding system. Environmental damage is being added to places that have existed for years. Why? Amia is 30-centric. What I mean is you pretty much want/need to be level 30 on Amia to really be useful in rp events and that sort of thing. Why are we delaying the inevitable? Why make it more of a grind to get there? Sure, you should "earn" your levels, but... why should we keep making it harder to do so?

In this day and age, NWN is old, really old. We managed to keep Amia afloat far longer than many of it's rivals. Many of our playerbase came from defunct servers. If we want to keep them, we need to make it appealing. I'm not saying coddle them, but, if you learn as a new player that 90% of the characters in use on the server are level 30, you want to get there too. If you now learn that this quest is broken, that one is gone, this dungeon is removed, and oh, we have extra damage added here and there, AND we have a +/- 5 level party requirement (which I hate, and see no point of on an RP server!), how would you feel? I just feel we are making it harder and harder for new players to WANT to stay here at the very time we need them most!

Please, hear what I said, don't just get angry with me, we're on the same side. I just want to see Amia continue and be what it's been: A great place to play NWN, with all the variety of RP and Playstyles you could ask for.

Thank you.

_________________

Most of the areas that are being removed are chosen based on their lack of use, and to cut back on the bloat of the server as a whole. They are also not simply being removed, they are being replaced as Glim's "quest/leveling tree" slowly gets implemented. I admit that I miss a lot of things that are gone, Actland, Udos illithids, but honestly I think it is good to change things up on occasion. Grinding the same thing also gets old.

As for the difficulty, and especially the environmental hazards; with the exception of the Frozen Wastes, the areas that have (or will have these) are all new, and the hazards implemented are entirely lore appropriate. You should have always frozen your @$$ off if you went to the Frozen Wastes, somebody just finally had a chance to work out the scripting.

_________________

Iim'mur'ss - Grandmaster Shadowdancer / Aaralyn - Diplomat / Oleander - Toxic Desert Flower

The illithids weren't used? What?

_________________

Saevan got his 30rd level after 13 days from creation. past level 20 (even a little before) he leveled entirely using the job system. well maybe 3k xp from low level quests too.

Helping others level using the job system,once you reach 30, has no level range restriction

my 2 dc

I don't think Uhm was destroyed for any particular structure OOC reason, it was just a soft target for the NPC foes to strike. Udos Dro'xun probably was a bit premeditated OOC-wise because the lore of that place was awful (same with Actand). That said... it is a bit of a problem that replacements have been slow coming.



You passed my PC's level with not one but two PCs. Some people just level at different paces.

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293

Serbiris,

I think you said what I'm trying to say. I don't mind change, but, change for the sake of change isn't always good either. Uhm was an IC thing, I get that, perhaps just putting the one piece to a series of quests that were broken would help. Just like removing Guston breaks a quest line too. I just don't see how that's moving forward. Now, if one was removed and another put in at the same time? I'm all for that.

_________________

Yeah sadly the replacements are slow coming but I think that's because they are putting in a lot more work into them then just (room with monsters connects to hallway with monsters that then connects to room with monster.... repeat till the end that is a room with boss monster and random way to explain getting outside)

All that being said I still cant wait till blackmoor keep is open so I can run around and murder that place as I hate patrolling outside in case some lowbie wants to kill undead. I believe it will be flagged as post-epic dungeon if IC is any indication.

_________________
================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Anatida wrote:
Most of the areas...

The plot that took out the illithids ran for quite a while. I wasn't involved on the staff side at the time, but as I think on it; I'd almost bet money that it was removed as part of the massive underdark overhaul that players have been screaming for since I began playing here.

I do agree that things should not be removed if their replacements are not also implemented. However, I can see that certain things happen at the 'speed of plot'. Broken things are being noted with everyone's help as they are found.

I won't comment specifically on Uhm, I will leave that for more experienced staff if they choose. Otherwise, serbiris and corypx have the right of it.

_________________

Iim'mur'ss - Grandmaster Shadowdancer / Aaralyn - Diplomat / Oleander - Toxic Desert Flower

It would be a good rule of thumb for us not to remove something that we plan to replace unless we have the replacement ready to go in at the same time. Within reason.

Valid concerns Bidocks, and concerns that I am happy to address.


We certainly are not "moving towards" removal of dungeon areas or increasing difficulty levels of what is left. What we are moving towards is removal (or revamping) of areas that make no good lore sense what-so-ever, rejuvenating existing dungeons, and adding new ones, some of which are more on the "easy grind" side of the spectrum and some that are more of the "strategic challenge" side of the spectrum. As you say, different players look for different types of challenges, so the goal is to provide a variety.


The Illithids were removed quite simply because wholesale slaughtering swarms of Illithid is frankly ludicrous from an IC perspective, as is boss farming an Elder Brain. I do take full responsibility for not being able to get a suitable replacement in place before the speed of plot determined that it was time to remove the Illithid dungeon, that is on me and for that I do apologize, but I assure you it's something that I'm working to correct.

The quest in Guldorand was removed because frankly it was broken as hell. The boss that you had to kill was many times more difficult than the mobs in the dungeon around it, causing a great deal of OOC frustration for everyone who went there. As the Guldorand areas are all getting revamped anyway, it made more sense to just axe the quest for a few months, than change something that was just going to get changed again anyway. You'll also perhaps note from the Announcement thread on server updates, that a new (straight forward, not really strategic) dungeon is being released very soon (putting the finishing touches on the critters) right in Guldorand itself as well.

Finally, the quest line in Uhm, was also broken; it was completable, if you did things exactly a certain way, but if you didn't it would break the quest line for you and you'd be unable to complete it. And the Ash Caverns are due for a tweak. The overall difficulty will be reduced -slightly-, the XP gain from the Scarabs increased a bit, some more spawn points added to the Braxat portions, and a ley node half way up (if I didn't already add that...)

I'm curious what you mean by the beginner quest in Cordor being broken though? I haven't been told of any further issues with it. Could you please elaborate? Only way I can fix something is if I know about it.


It's a transition period. Sometimes it will be harder than before, sometimes it will be easier than before. All depends when you catch it. Also in regards to the wounding system, that discussion as not extended into the Design or Dev forums at all.


To further touch on the subject of "making all the existing areas harder", I'd like to point out that in each "level bracket" there will be some dungeons that will remain on the more simple side, some that will be a bit more challenging for an individual, and some that will need a party to complete the challenges. For example if you take the level 5-6 bracket, we have the Lowlands Trogs (which have been revamped and a quest added, but left a bit more simple), the Gibbering Maw (which pretty much needs 2-3 people at that level), and the redesign of Darkhold that's due out, which will make it a more challenging solo or party dungeon. So you have a mix of everything for that one level bracket, depending on your play style. That's the kind of setup we're going for (and at least one quest in every dungeon of course).


I hope this alleviates some of your concerns, and explains where we're heading.

The Amian monster massacring dynamic for levels is flexible enough, even if we removed half of the dungeons on the module. I would like to see more alternative methods, aside from the job and quest systems, instead. Academies, training camps, and the like. Things like introducing hard store gold caps without having an army of leprechauns nicking away the billions of gold floating around from days past is more harmful to our server than blowing up dusty old areas.

_________________
Sion of Nimlith
Shadow Disciple

Glim,

First, thank you very much for taking the time to explain things. Much of what you said, I, as a player, had not idea of. What you say makes a lot of sense, and I like the fact that you are taking the different playstyles into account.

As for the Cordor quest, I saw it on the forums? If Guston was removed from Cordor, that would break the messenger quest. I haven't witnessed it personally, but, saw it on the post.

Again, thank you Glim for all your work and the explanations. That's really all I was asking for.

_________________

Of course I saw the IA thread about the quest after I posted here so I'll definitely be looking into it.

_________________
Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

Not at all, it depends on the type of mobs, the level bracket of the dungeon, etc.

For example, the Bendir Orc caves are getting a rejuve soon, not really much in the way of mechanical changes, but more lore, a few mini-bosses, and an update of the quest. Now for that level bracket, wholesale slaughtering a horde of Ogres would be way overboard. But slaughtering a bunch of Orcs, with an Ogre smith as a mini-boss? That makes sense and provides a good challenge, without going overboard.

Slaughtering hordes of Illithids, which are supposed to be some of the most powerful critters in the setting, doesn't make so much sense, especially when you take into account the intelligence and craftiness of Illithids, and that they generally don't take to the field themselves. No Elder Brain would have itself so out in the open like that either.

Hope that makes sense.

_________________
Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

Yes but some non-sensible things are worse than others, and it is a video game under it all, so there has to be some amount of repetition. But for example, the Spire giants pick new kings when an old one dies, the Brog Orcs pick a new high mage, the undead pirate reconstitutes itself after time has passed, etc.

Elder Brains don't exactly grow that quickly

The beginner quest in Cordor isn't broken, I completed it yesterday. Guston just moved to a dock that's not in a district undergoing power struggles.

I think what bidocks is talking about isn't just a mechanical issue or a problem with leveling and areas. I've noticed a trend on the server since I got back.. I don't know if it's a bad thing yet and I think it has a lot to do with the player base being older now, but the server seems much less friendly these days than I remember it. The trend has been toward a more RP-heavy setting. I don't mean to say that Amia has ever been RP-lite, but it certainly wasn't as heavy as Arelith or any of the servers we used to consider 'elitist'.

It seems to me that the Wound system that's being considered, the environmental damage, hunting area changes, and the tone of the current major plots are all part of that trend.

Oh, I saw that. I brought it up because, in the Wound and Healing System thread, Hudson stated that it's still on the table and Pony stated that he's going to work on scripting it himself when he gets a chance. I know that it's still in the very early stages, but right now it sounds like it is something that will be coming down the road. So.. 'heavy' RP seems to be the current trend on the server.

Isn't it still going to be optional? Nothing wrong with more options, as long as i don't have to take part in the ones i don't like!

_________________


House Auvrea'Kan Crafts and Services is now open and prepared to discuss orders.

_________________
Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

This server has always strived towards making interresting new and flavorful challenges and changes to the leveling process. We simply now have more tools to help with that. The rejuve project can revist old dungeons to update them with these, and include them right away with new dungeons.

Given how much script work it is to emulate the abilities and challenges of Dungeons and Dragons, a great deal of it was reduced to Diablo II hack and slash. We generally know how dominant that style is on NWN servers, and those who have not played Pen and Paper often have the impression that is what D&D is composed of. So yes, as we put in the work to continue to make leveling more versatile, the difficulty level will rise in a manner.

The challenges will be harder, but only because not a single tactic will be optimal in every single dungeon and encounter. But all dungeons can be done with simple hack and slash. There is also being a lot of work invested into clear quest leveling progression for interresting story elements and as a help for getting xp for those who enjoy quests. So there will be counterweights.

The wound system is completly unrleated, because unless you want it to have an impact, it will not have one. I do not think more has to be said about this, because it does not factor in.

To be very direct, currently Amia is very much a construction site. To optimize it for the future, there is a lot that must be done. The server spread, the inaccessability for new players, the difficulty of finding hunting groups because of it, etc, etc. The lack of dungeons is not an intended state of things, but simply the consequence of it. In a few months, a lot of things will have seen considerable improvement.

So no, we are not working hard to remove areas. We are actually working very hard on getting new areas ready, updating old areas to be more enjoyable and getting an abundance of other stuff done.