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A topic cropped elsewhere in the forum regarding suicide. Since that was answered I then wondered more regarding to the lore of the subject matter.

How is suicide thought of across the many cultures in the FR setting?

What would be the consequences from deities? I'm a bit out of the loop in the lore in some areas these days but I would imagine Kelemvor would be pretty pissed at you if you committed suicide and isn't he intrical in the death process for humans? Not sure regarding other races.

Taking your own life forfeits your chance to be resurrected to my knowledge. I doubt Kelemvor cares in that manner. The False and The Faithless are not treated well in the fugue.
As for different cultures view on it I can not bring much to the table

Guess it depends hugely on circumstances.

Scenario one:
A warrior is surrounded by orcs on a cliff, cutting down many but being unable to escape and tiring fast as the battle keeps raging.
The orcs hoot and taunt him about how they will torture him to a slow death. The warrior spits an orc in the face, grabs the biggest orc closeby, stabs him with a dagger in the gut and then drags him along as he jumps of the cliff, shouting his gods name loudly as they plummet down to certain death.

I think if the warrior followed a war god the god would give him the thumbs up despite him taking his own life in the end and wouldn't mind ressurection so he can do more brave deeds in the deities name.
Eldath on the other hand would be less impressed.

Scenario two:
A man has had a stroke of bad luck and decides he can't take it anymore and he jumps off of a cliff.

His patron deity likely wouldn't be impressed especially if it was Tymora or Besheba.

What I am trying to say it's impossible to give any blanket statement regarding this as there are so many circumstances to take into account (Deity's interests, culture, circumstances of demise.)

When this topic came up on the candlekeep forum, there was no real forgotten realms canon to go on. It does not seem that it is covered either in the rulebooks or the novels. The most that people could do was to theorize simmiliar to Silelock and Hudson, but there is nothing really to go on.

When it comes to suicide, it is also not a topic I feel you can apply your own morals and ethics to in hope to determine the likelyhood it would be handled. In a polytheistic world with so many cultures it is really difficult to say. What is clear that anyone who states to you that suicide is a sin that the gods would perhaps punish is at the most making an (educated)-guess.

I would guess it is acceptable in certain cases and might get you into serious problems in others. Might be worth to try to get an awnser from Ed Greenwood on Candlekeep about this topic.

Agreed with Pony. I haven't seen anything related to suicide in the Realms and how deities and their deific Judges view it, and probably for the same reason they don't cover the human sex trade or child pornography in the Realms.

My personal take is that suicide being a negative thing seems a very western Judeo-Christian interpretation. I definitely think it happens, but in my own head I see Kelemvor simply sorting a suicide as any other death. If the person who committed suicide did so in a moment of abject hopelessness and had truly lost all faith, well, the Wall for him. Not because he committed suicide, but because of his faithlessness when he did so. Faithful suicides probably just get a sad shake of the head and are delivered to their patron deity's realm, to then experience whatever lies in wait for those who took their own lives. You could imagine how each deity might feel about their followers who do so. Lathander, for example, may embrace them and console them and may express his joy that they are reborn, but a sadness that their renewal had to come at so high a cost. Bane, on the other hand, might be pissed and have some specific punishment in mind for them, like impaling them on the spikes of his cleated boots to forever be crushed between the bottom of his greave and the ground with every marching step he takes.

Indeed. And the Judeo-Christian interpredation often falls flat even in cultures that are more "european" like the Sword Coast.

To take another example that does not have such a grim reality to it (and hence was covered in lore), marriage is handled very different in many circumstances in the Forgotten Realms. The Church for Siamorphe for instance performs marriages that last for one night, to allow nobles to have one night stands in secret. However it does upset the noble families. Adultry also has specific examples. In Amn it can be punished with execution and imprisonment, which falls more into the european medieval way. Noteworthy as well, with the specific example of amn, a noble paladin of Helm would not fall if he would have his spouse punished for adultry in such a harsh manner. There are many faiths that also permitt marriages to last a certain time, for example marrying for a time of five years. So our own ethics and morals very often can not be simply translated or medieval-fied. At times they work well, other times they do not even get close.

If you really want to know if suicide is appropriate, I would not touch suicide itself but look at the circumstances sorrounding it, like Yossarin suggested. That way you can actually get to a likely accurate decision. If the act comes along with an act of faithlessness, you know what happens. If the act comes along with an act of falseness, you know it is the wall. If the circumstances of the act is completly in line with the rest of the dogma, then best you consider it as acceptable. That way you do not need to touch the suicide debate.

My take on this is in line with what Yoss and Pony have already written. The gods would be more interested in the nature of the suicide. If it served the deity's interests, there would be no stigma or divine retribution. Shar may see suicide as one of the ideal ways to die. Especially if it causes others to despair or lose hope. Of course, there are some deities that would be hard to please with suicide.

But there are a ton of examples that could be given for the range of deities, beliefs and cultures in FR. One would need to examine each on a case-by-case basis, really.

All good points and I agree the moment of death and how you die is up to cultural/religion depending on who the character worships (if any).

Canon lore wise what happens once you die is more well documented and what I have gathered from it is this.

When a person dies their soul (unless hindered) ends up on the plane of Fugue (home to Kelemvor and Jergal) and even though I have not found a source for it I believe the soul ends up in the City of Judgement as opposed to outside the gates.

Once there they are allowed to be there for a tenday before one of the following things happen:
1. Their soul is picked up by the divine messengers of their god and taken to their gods plane of existence.
2. The Faithless are assimilated into the wall to protect the city from attacking demons.
3. The False are punished and can serve as guards or more cruel things depending on how bad they behaved in life.
4. Souls are able to barter with a certain form of outsider to escape the afterlife if they fear what is in stow for them is worse than what the outsiders offer (not common knowledge to my understanding)
5. Worshippers of Kelemvor and Jergal remain within the Fugue Plane and serve in the City.

For my PCs take on it and how he views it a suicide is when a person have met their true end, their spirit is attuned and was meant to end at that point so coming back from a suicide is hard (perhaps a wish?) but I think it is more akin to dying of old age.

The wiggle room to bring someone back from a suicide would be the tenday before their soul is judged if they have not yet moved on I suppose as well.

Indeed. All about the fugue plane is accurate from the lore that I am familiar with. The only thing I am not 100% sure of is if they appear outside or inside the city. I do think it is outside.

Though the wiggle room of one week I feel is wrong. You can raise individuals that long moved onto their realm. Even Kelemvor allows it, with that true ressurection ritual that can be performed on shieldmeet. But you for instance can not raise individuals that are false or faithless at any time.

As for the difficulty in returning a suicide, that is explained that most cases of suicide are by those who no longer wish to live. As the soul has an active decision to heed the call to the realm of the living, one who wished to die would likely not want to return to life.

Of course, if the suicide served some greater purpose like the warrior jumping off a cliff with his hated nemesis or a wizard who plunged a dagger in his heart to power a ritual to save someone he cared about, then the will to return may be present and the resurrection would work.

There is a week before you're moved on from the city yes, but after that week (true) resurrection still applies provided they are not specifically excepted (faithless, false, devilfication - if there is even a rule stating that a soul once bartered to the lower planes, can't be resurrected... not sure if there is, though common sense would suggest it).

I'm told that there's an Amia-specific exception for Faithless (and possibly False), in that they are handwaved a week before they get placed in the Wall after which they cannot be raised, but before that they can. Some sort of compromise between the hardline lore "Faithless can never be raised/resurrected ever" and player behaviour.

Makes sense.

A good thing to note in general is that Ed Greenwood in an interview said the reason we have so many gods in the Forgotten Realms is because he wanted to have the gods be cryptic distant beings. He simply overflooded the community with the amount of gods, so the players could not remember all the information that would remove the mystery during adventures. It was also his clear intent that contact with the gods rarely is a clear and easily understood dialogue, but outside of special cases happens through signs. Such as the sun shining through the windows upon the altar, that the faithful need to interpred.

These are two aspects he wants D&D to return to in 5th edition FR. So for us as the playerbase trying to know everything about the gods is not relevant in the least, as our characters should not.

This is true, and he actually extended that to more than just the gods. He did it with pretty much all the lore in the FR setting, and admits so in the foreword of his new book!

I so wish they would have expanded on the lore of Jergal like Ed hinted to in a dragon magazine.

So deities its more down to the situation of the death. Sensible really. i was curious about the kelemvor issue.

Any ideas about the other cultures and races?

I think in other cultures and races it's guesswork still.

The gods affilliated with the culture may give some insight if you consider their nature and the beliefs they expouse.

Examples would be the extremely warlike and martial norse (and orcs) who frown on any death that isn't in battle and whose gods of war are dominant in the pantheon.

The Greek pantheon has broader tastes, while Ares is a singleminded warmonger other gods have more refined tastes and are as important or even more important then Ares is. Likely suicide would be viewed wholly differant by them.

I'd say in general the sterner/ martial/ warlike a culture is the less suicide is apprechiated unless it's a heroic affair in battle.

From elven race perspective, passing to Arvador is usually accepted as natural part of life. However, death of an elf by murder or battle is usually rather sorrowful. Dying due to old age is respected. Taking a life of yourself, in my understanding, would not be accepted well. It is because the elf is not simply taking from himself but from the whole of the People. Life is greatest of gifts by the Coronel, suicide would be like spitting upon that gift. Of course, situation varies and some elfs might end taking their life if they do not see any other route out of it. However, having said that, being imprisoned is even worse than death. In death you can pass to Arvador to your loved ones and with your deities. In imprisonment your individual freedom is taken away, forced to stay within four walls which elfs simply despise.

Even if elfs would not accept suicide, they usually are rather understanding of each others. Having one take their own life would be a tragedy, not something that any elf would do easily. The fact that the People around him were not able to help or understand his troubles makes it actually work, as elfs usually live in mutual understanding of each others.

One little snippit I found in FR Faiths and Avatars mentions that Kelemvor believes in assisted suicide:

"In cases of great pain, ravaging diseases, or mutilation where death would be a mercy, it is the office of the priests of Kelemvor --and only the priests of Kelemvor-- to bring death, as swiftly and as painlessly as possible."

This rule of 'only priests of Kelemvor' could be interpreted as not only prohibiting anybody conducting mercy killings but also mercy killing oneself in such cases of sucicide. I am sure they believe they only have the divinely granted authority to decide when somebody's end should be.

Luckbringer wrote:

One little snippit I found in FR Faiths and Avatars mentions that Kelemvor believes in assisted suicide:

"In cases of great pain, ravaging diseases, or mutilation where death would be a mercy, it is the office of the priests of Kelemvor --and only the priests of Kelemvor-- to bring death, as swiftly and as painlessly as possible."

This rule of 'only priests of Kelemvor' could be interpreted as not only prohibiting anybody conducting mercy killings but also mercy killing oneself in such cases of sucicide. I am sure they believe they only have the divinely granted authority to decide when somebody's end should be.

Oh, that is very interresting. Great find.

Magiros wrote:

From elven race perspective, passing to Arvador is usually accepted as natural part of life. However, death of an elf by murder or battle is usually rather sorrowful. Dying due to old age is respected. Taking a life of yourself, in my understanding, would not be accepted well. It is because the elf is not simply taking from himself but from the whole of the People. Life is greatest of gifts by the Coronel, suicide would be like spitting upon that gift. Of course, situation varies and some elfs might end taking their life if they do not see any other route out of it. However, having said that, being imprisoned is even worse than death. In death you can pass to Arvador to your loved ones and with your deities. In imprisonment your individual freedom is taken away, forced to stay within four walls which elfs simply despise.

Even if elfs would not accept suicide, they usually are rather understanding of each others. Having one take their own life would be a tragedy, not something that any elf would do easily. The fact that the People around him were not able to help or understand his troubles makes it actually work, as elfs usually live in mutual understanding of each others.

Actually I was reading up on elves a while back, and I think it was in one of the sourcebooks (3.ed I believe) I read that elves have the ability to choose death above life if they want to. They can simply die without anything having to kill them, and would use this ability if they are for instance captured and the situation seems hopeless.

I've read similar stuff in relation to an elf losing the person (or place or object) she was spirit-bonded to. A spouse losing their beloved in war, or an earth-bonded druid's forest being burned, or whatever. I think such things would make the idea of an elf simply choosing to cease at least circumstantially acceptable in elven society.

Suicide in the Forgotten Realms

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