AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Monstrous Races

Hey guys, there's a matter I want to address.

I got asked the other day about a certain Monstrous PC I requested and then played, as to why I don't play them as much. I rose a similar point in a skype chat and described how I felt, and there seemed to be a mass nod of heads in thinking the same.

What's the reason you ask?

The mass humanisation of Monstrous races. Now, I'm not saying there isn't or can't ever be any monster race that can exhibit personalities that people can overlook their origin with, such as an example most will know of Kurchin.

Now I'm not going to kick up a fuss about what specifically this links in with why I don't play that PC much (and I am going to give it another shot) however, when I am warned:

Quote:

Gnoll are heavily hated in several settlements on Amia for they killed and tortured many in their lair on the isle and used them in gorey rites.

How do you feel about your character likely getting instant banned from many of those areas? Kohlingen and Uhm come to my mind immediately. Though true "mosters" we are not speaking of partial bloods here afterall might even get banned by most cities. I see Wiltun and Tarkuul and such likely not care but many others would.

---

One big concern currently is (and what we are still debating) that you want to play a race which is normally just slain on sight by people.

And I am met most of the time of "Oh wait, this Gnoll isn't attacking us straight away, let's pretend he's a fluffy Hyena friend" in most places but Treaty of Light settlements (where it would be suicide for them to go, may I add) then it leads me ultimately to the question I want this thread to focus on:

How do you feel about how Monstrous Races are treated ICly?

I'll give my blunt and honest opinion on this..

I wish people researched the creature they wanted to play, and play it more 'realistically' to it's nature, instead of everybody being friendly with a monster race. They're called a monster race for a reason. What frustrates me is when somebody actually goes and plays a classic Kobold, hissing tribe mentality etc, everybody is like "oh no! Why is this Kobold not friendly like the others? He's mean!" That shouldn't happen, there's a frontier full of Kobolds who will shoot at you, I don't like people who treat a race differently from the mass majority of them, even if it's only represented by NPCs. View all monster races with suspicion, if a race was widely known for being cunning, deceiving viscous or what have you, would you trust it?

Won't name people, don't want to start a flame war here, but I'm expressing my own personal opinion, and I believe I have a point. I know my friends agree that's pretty ridiculous. Sure, there can be the occasional exception, such as Kurchin for example, however when there's more PC kobolds (using Kobolds as an example because they are the most popular) doing it than not, somebody needs to mix it up and play it true to it's race. And people playing adventurers could use to acknowledge the fact monster races are extremely rarely friendly, and it'd be much better if they, at the very least initially, treated monster race PCs with hostility/distrust.

So, if you play a Gnoll, I fully encourage you to play it to the tribal savage it is, but they aren't a dumb creature, make it cunning, viscous. They're capable of some degree of intellect, they serve as guards in Thay. They're like dogs, really.

"The typical Gnoll has few redeeming virtues. He is a cruel, hateful bully, quick to rob from or torment those weaker than himself, and just as quick to grovel in the presence of those stronger. Lazy and ill-tempered, he prefers to steal what he needs and murder anyone who objects. Only the promise of loot and easy slaughter can stir him to real effort, and even then he is likely to abandon ongoing tasks to indulge his larcenous instincts unless a strong leader cows him into obedience." Unapproachable East, page 10-11. Nobody should treat a Gnoll as friendly, especially considering there's a good population of the beasts on the island.

+1 to Wolfbran's post.

As one of the only players with a lizardfolk, I do see your point. Personally, I try to play my monstrous race as close to an actual lizard folk as I can. We must remember something though, being a solo monster race with no friends isn't very fun. Personally I find it very hard to find RP outside of a city or a dungeon group.

That being said, I would love to see more 'monstrous races' around. If anyone would be up to make a lizard folk, I would be more then happy to help them along with the lore

.

I am big fan of lore. At the same time, I absolutely refuse to make out of character comments like this: you should have known this before you chose to play that race.

Instead, when I notice someone is struggling with the lore behind their character race or class, I try to give subtle hints in character to help. If that doesn't work, I give obvious hints in character. If that doesn't work, I ask them out of character if they want some help with the lore concerning their character's race or class choice. If that doesn't work, then I just play along with them anyway. I have no problem role-playing with a kobold that thinks he's a frost giant. I can adapt.

Having said that, all of my characters follow this rule: if in the middle of a civilized area and a monstrous race is calmly walking down the street, my characters will almost always assume they are allowed to be there by the governing body (unless my character is the governing body). If in the middle of a non-civilized area, they are assumed to be an enemy, unless they can prove otherwise (i.e. not attacking people on-site).

joe15552 wrote:

I am big fan of lore. At the same time, I absolutely refuse to make out of character comments like this: you should have known this before you chose to play that race.

Amia has a good system in place, they usually make people read a lot of lore before actually allowing one to play a monstrous race, at least in my opinion.

joe15552 wrote:

Having said that, all of my characters follow this rule: if in the middle of a civilized area and a monstrous race is calmly walking down the street, my characters will almost always assume they are allowed to be there by the governing body (unless my character is the governing body). If in the middle of a non-civilized area, they are assumed to be an enemy, unless they can prove otherwise (i.e. not attacking people on-site).

This is a good point, personally I have had my monstrous character go out of his way, and make sure he is allowed in citys/public spots. Of course, lets be honest here. A lizardfolk walks into cordor and everyone stares at him like hes crazy. However, they kinda ignored the pile of half dragons, chromatic dragon kin, people with wings, and other weird sorts. In such a 'magical' hot spot, would a mundane monstrous race really be something to turn a head at?

I think people are reluctant to react to monster race PCs in a realistic way, simply because they know that if there's a gnoll or lizardfolk (or goblin or kobold or drow or whatever) walking down the street in the middle of town, then that monster is being played by a PC, and is therefore entitled to the protections of the PVP rules. Many people just don't like PVP, even when justified, because it far too often ends up in butthurt whining. So people squelch the natural, plausble reaction to encountering a monster (either "omg, it's a monster, squish it!" or "omg, it's a monster, run away!") just out of an antipathy towards making waves. Which results in the "monsterishness" of monster races being minimized and marginalized.

In Liz's Perfect World, monster races would either be: 1.) not available to be played by PCs, or 2.) not entitled to the same protections as humans/elves/hin/dwarves/et cetera.

Wolfbran wrote:

So, if you play a Gnoll, I fully encourage you to play it to the tribal savage it is, but they aren't a dumb creature, make it cunning, viscous. They're capable of some degree of intellect, they serve as guards in Thay. They're like dogs, really.

"The typical Gnoll has few redeeming virtues. He is a cruel, hateful bully, quick to rob from or torment those weaker than himself, and just as quick to grovel in the presence of those stronger. Lazy and ill-tempered, he prefers to steal what he needs and murder anyone who objects. Only the promise of loot and easy slaughter can stir him to real effort, and even then he is likely to abandon ongoing tasks to indulge his larcenous instincts unless a strong leader cows him into obedience." Unapproachable East, page 10-11. Nobody should treat a Gnoll as friendly, especially considering there's a good population of the beasts on the island.

Trust me, I did a lot of research, ended up being one of the pivotal points of the request that got it accepted, it's other people's reaction to such that's the issue.

As a player who ~only~ plays monstrous races, I think I do a rather good job!

I might play a gnoll someday, but you can expect its going to be an evil, growling hyena.

I agree with Liz. It's the PvP rules which limit the proper reaction to monster races.

You don't have to PvP to express hostility, I do it on a daily basis. PvP rules have little to do with it. If the RP escalated into PvP, that's a different subject.

Quote:

How do you feel about how Monstrous Races are treated ICly?

I feel that we're all attention whores playing Let's Pretend via a nicely customised smack'em'up computer game hung around some appallingly badly written plagiarism calling itself lore, and some people pay DC and write research-laden bios to get a kind of attention that seems far too much like work for me.

Baffling, but unproblematic to my enjoyment of Amia, and if boats are being floated, then all is well.

O'Raghailligh wrote:

I agree with Liz. It's the PvP rules which limit the proper reaction to monster races.

The lizard folk I play has been attacked a few times. Most people draw their swords, or at least are 'hesitant' about dealing with me on Hesk, it is nice to see. Some races are more 'monstrous' then others, and some monstrous races can be reasoned with. It is a case by case basis.

As for not allowing PCs to be monstrous races, I do not see why someones imagination should be held back. Being a monstrous race, to me, is almost like being a DM with only one NPC, you can't do much but you can sure make people who interact with you have an interesting experience. To each their own, however.

EDIT: Lizardfolk on Amia have advantages a gnoll would not. The Lizard folk have two tribes, Green and Red. Red are neutral to most people, however they are the weaker tribe. The green tribe is the dominate tribe, they are the dungeon mobs.

Gnolls again, do not have this advantage. There is no 'Tribe' that is neutral, or any reason why such a monstrous race would be seen as anything else but a force to be fought. This makes it difficult, but not impossible, to play such a race.

Uberuce wrote:

Quote:

How do you feel about how Monstrous Races are treated ICly?

I feel that we're all attention whores playing Let's Pretend via a nicely customised smack'em'up computer game hung around some appallingly badly written plagiarism calling itself lore, and some people pay DC and write research-laden bios to get a kind of attention that seems far too much like work for me.

Baffling, but unproblematic to my enjoyment of Amia, and if boats are being floated, then all is well.

I do feel like this is a little demeaning towards people who would chose to play outside the box. To each their own, and if one wishes to have a different experience more power to them. I for one, wanted a lizard folk so I could involve people (To the little extent I can) with the lizard folk tribe on Amia. I enjoy lizard folk, I want other people to enjoy lizard folk. If I can enjoy myself while spreading said joy to others, why wouldn't I? It is healthy for the community. Perhaps my mindset would be better done on the DM side of things, however, that is a lot of responsibility and not everyone is willing to take it up. A monstrous race is one way as a player I can give back to Amia, and make the world not so bland.

People's imagination should be held back in order to make the server a more plausible place. Should we all be allowed to play anything we can imagine? I can imagine a *lot.*

Cluckzilla, Space-Gnolls and Skeletons in Star Wars AT-AT walkers invade Cordor!

Welcome to Amia 2006! :wink:

Oh, and I love someone finally made a lizardman of the Red Tribe!

Liz wrote:

People's imagination should be held back in order to make the server a more plausible place. Should we all be allowed to play anything we can imagine? I can imagine a *lot.*

Personally, I keep my monstrous race away from towns, this is how I personally try to make my lizard folk 'plausible'. I try to remain in the wilderness and near areas that make sense. Some times, I enter places to buy supplies (healing kits, cotton, potions), but I try not to make a big scene. This of course, limits my RP potential, but it is the choice I personally made.

EDIT: As for "Should we all be allowed to play anything we can imagine?" ... I would say to an extent.. Yes. However, with great power comes great responsibility. If you can find a place for the PC you wish to play, and play it -correctly- then you are doing the server a service (Again, in my oppinion). Hell, request a lesser demon and hang out in the abbys as far as im concerned; you might just create some great role play for yourself and others. By doing so, you are making the world an interesting place, without DMs. The problem lies of course, that your PC dosn't have the '(OOC/IC) power' that a DM controlled thing would.

That's great! It's the proper principled choice, in my opinion, and kudos to you for making it. But, some people don't. Especially players of the monster races which don't require any special permission or effort to play (goblins, ogrillions, drow, kobolds, etc.).

Liz wrote:

That's great! It's the proper principled choice, in my opinion, and kudos to you for making it. But, some people don't. Especially players of the monster races which don't require any special permission or effort to play (goblins, ogrillions, drow, kobolds, etc.).

With openness comes some problems, yes. However, I have also experienced great role play by some goblins and kobolds. This role play I do not think I would have had the pleasure of experiencing without said openness (Low barrier of entry).

Liz wrote:

That's great! It's the proper principled choice, in my opinion, and kudos to you for making it. But, some people don't. Especially players of the monster races which don't require any special permission or effort to play (goblins, ogrillions, drow, kobolds, etc.).

Well, in my opinion, some people don't make a principled choice even when it's a human fighter... but, w/e. Who am I to judge?

I dream of the day someone will make a friendly kobold or goblin character that starts a civil rights movement on the island to combat the regular massacres of entire goblin/kobold families by greedy adventurers. The 'good guys' shouldn't find it so easy to slaughter and then rob NPC gobos when there are plenty of friendly PC gobos around.

I Hurt Too: Life as an Amian Goblin

Also..

Nuk-chuk Remembers His Dead Mate

WHO ARE THE REAL MONSTERS!?

In my personal ideals yes, you should try to keep close to the lore and let certain roleplay possibly flow you away from it if you feel like it. It should be guidelines, not chains.
I understand Liz would rather it be dull and easy to find roleplay that wont cause any issues with other people, but for bloody sake why bother having 'evil' if you can't have reasons to be evil?

Monster PC's give a good way for evil stuff, or even that rare little treat of that one intelligent one that says 'screw this i'd rather hide in a cave alone somewhere then be slaughtered like the rest!'

I myself hope to get a MPC soon as i get the DC's i need and put up the request, however the species itself has little to no information past basic mentality. Does that make me more open then others? more free? or am I bound to information others know but i do not?

Yes, that's just precisely what I meant. I loves me some dull RP. Moar plz!

Eyeroll.

Exactly the opposite. RP which undervalues and undermines the monstrousness of monsters is dull RP. I believe we've currently got the bar set too low, with too much tolerance (both IC and OOC) for nicey-nice monsters whose only gesture in the direction of monstrous RP is their grammar. I'm kind of bemused that here on the forums, we're simultaneously lamenting the unfortunate shortage of positive player-driven conflict, and yet marginalizing a rich gold mine of sources for positive player-driven conflict. Monsters *should be* near-universally shunned and loathed and, in civilized areas, viciously persecuted. We don't currently have a server culture which incentivizes that. If you want to interpret that as advocating dull RP, I suppose that's your prerogative.

There is a difference between recognizing that a monster is a monster and the monster being a monster. When the monsters act like monsters, they will be treated like monsters. Unless it is my PC, who will feign an air of normalcy with them as part of a social experiment to determine the role of nature, nurture, and positive/negative reinforcement on the savage species.

Liz wrote:

I'm kind of bemused that here on the forums, we're simultaneously lamenting the unfortunate shortage of positive player-driven conflict, and yet marginalizing a rich gold mine of sources for positive player-driven conflict. Monsters *should be* near-universally shunned and loathed and, in civilized areas, viciously persecuted.

Like I have stated before, Amia is a 'magically' saturated place. People have become a little desensitized, and that tends to happen when you have people with wings, teiflings, half dragons, kobolds, goblins... ect. ect. walking around. If the server were to start persecuting everyone who wasn't human, we would probably kick every other person out of the citys for some reason.

EDIT: Furthermore; Monster races are usually rare; rare in the sense that there is only one 'PC' currently that is said race. A lone Gnoll will not create good conflict, what it will create is a bunch of people ganking the lone individual, and some potentially hurt feelings. The problem lies with not everyone is willing to invest DCs in such an in devour. For example, if I told you, "Hey lets be Gnolls together. Spend 5 DC and request a character that will be persecuted, have a hard time leveling, and probably not get much good RP outside of what happened before PvP." Would you want to? Of course not. We are here to enjoy more then just a mechanical PvP fight, we are here to tell stories, and create stories.

KingArthur129 wrote:

If the server were to start persecuting everyone who wasn't human, we would probably kick every other person out of the citys for some reason.

And we'd be better off for it. (Assuming the server had some other RP hub where monsters could go to find their RP.)

Now -that's- the tough part, Liz.

Liz wrote:

KingArthur129 wrote:

If the server were to start persecuting everyone who wasn't human, we would probably kick every other person out of the citys for some reason.

And we'd be better off for it. (Assuming the server had some other RP hub where monsters could go to find their RP.)

Well... At the moment there lies a problem. I spend a lot of my time pretty much AFK- no one comes to the 'Monster spots' I usually hang around in, because everyone is in the cities. Monster Race RP is fairly tough, and requires DM attention most of the time. It is a hard road to go down.

EDIT: I see the 'issue' I really do, I just don't see a better alternative. Not everyone is willing to ostracise themselves because some people feel 'uneasy' about how they are going about role play. The best case scenario is you get a group of monster PCs that create good role play, but I don't think that has really ever happened outside of a small group of kobolds or perhaps goblins. I would love to see a group of Gnolls, or Lizard folk, or even something like trolls... But the time and effort it takes to request the character, learn the lore, get the DCs... Not everyone has time to commit or wishes to invest that much.

Mr. Hackums wrote:

Now -that's- the tough part, Liz.

Yes, very agreed. I only claim to be able to identify problems, not fix them.

KingArthur129 wrote:

... But the time and effort it takes to request the character, learn the lore, get the DCs... Not everyone has time to commit or wishes to invest that much.

Then they shouldn't be allowed to play monsters. What you've listed there are the absolute minimun qualifications for that privilege.

Liz wrote:

KingArthur129 wrote:

... But the time and effort it takes to request the character, learn the lore, get the DCs... Not everyone has time to commit or wishes to invest that much.

Then they shouldn't be allowed to play monsters. What you've listed there are the absolute minimun qualifications for that privilege.

I am not saying these are the people getting the monster races. This is why there is a -lack- of monster races. The investment is very high for a very specialized role on the server.

Yeah, it's rough, I'm with ya. A lot of stress and hoop-jumping and long bouts of boredom, and often probably not much reward waiting for you afterwards. I'm just advocating that the privilege of playing a monster should intrinsically include the recognition and acceptance that the function of a monster PC within the server is not the same as that of a demihuman PC. If you can't accept that, then monster RP is probably not for you.

The monstrous race PC is a topic I'm rather familiar with, indeed.

The pitfall of being in a loneliness trap is one I'm well aware of. A monster that well, behaves like a monster is usually killed off, shunned, etc, in very short order. Tolerances are much lower for monstrous race PCs, even if they do have the chance to become accepted, it's usually a harder road for them. I've tried playing traditionalist kobolds before, for example, but the character, being true to a typical kobold, is quite unable to function with non-draconic PCs beyond confrontation and PvP. Of course, this dynamic could work if he had a base of players to draw on, but is often alone. Not much can be done with him, because he doesn't want to go attacking everyone alone, that would be suicidal, but nor would he have the means to gather kin for raiding, so, he'd just sit in his warren. Or die off in short order.
Keep in mind also, you don't get monstrous race coalitions, or UD coalitions vs non-UD coalitions, they hate one another as much as everyone else and are, from what I have observed, entirely unable to function in a cohesive unit. No alliances between kobolds, goblins, drow, etc, or at least, I've not seen lasting ones. I generally view monster PCs with the understanding that they are exceptional members of their races, either from a power perspective in not getting effortlessly pasted by adventurers, or with atypical behavior.

But on a broader perspective, that of the server, there's another whole set of factors to consider. Amia split with Arelith on this matter (and a few others!), but something that's been a core value of Amia has been the more relaxed and open setting, players are allowed significantly more freedom in regards to what they can play. Bahamuti kobolds, Eilistraeean drow, etc, all perfectly allowed here. It would move away from that value of freedom to restrict it further. Now, we do have a balancing act to consider in this all, we certainly won't allow a LG half-celestial half-fiend vampire, for example, but we do want to allow players to have legitimate freedom.

Similarly, we do want our playerbase interacting. If we were to adopt a more hardline stance on monstrous race PCs, then we'd probably see interactions reduced to either nothing or to nothing more than PvP.

Also consider, that if we do implement that stance, we would have to apply it to other areas which people may not consider lore appropriate. We'd have to, for example, restrict evil elves greatly, since by lore they're usually CG. And then we'd have to restrict other such cases all around, as it would simply be hypocritical and unfair to apply it in one case yet not another. The result would be a great restriction to player freedom, which I'm certain would anger those who have had their legitimate character cases ruined by hardline rules.

Another problem is, is that a lot of times, people have widely different interpretations of canon lore. If you take the NWN2 campaign for example, the PC can have a drow set up a shop in his keep with no problems. Yet others believe that drow should only interact with surfacers through violence and good drow shouldn't exist period, while others hold that since Eilistraee exists, they should be allowed to be of neutral/good alignments, and with work, garner acceptance from other settlements, and in the past, they had done exactly that on this server.

In summary, there's a lot of factors to consider in this topic. I'm personally a fan of keeping things open, myself.

I've been hoping you'd comment here, 1Kobra (1Kobold?), since a lot of what I've said here could easily be read as a condemnation of Kurchin, and I think that he's invested time and energy enough into backing up his happy shiny hugginess that he constitutes the exception that proves the rule.

And I agree that the *rules* shouldn't be changed. It's just our attitude which needs adjustment. I advocate that the playing of a monster race should come with the caveat that your PC is not entitled to be treated fairly IC. You have no right to walk down public roads in civilized areas without being harassed, no right to gather peacefully in the RP hubs that demihuman PCs frequent. Anyone who wants to put forth the effort of making a request and/or spending the DCs shouldd be able to do it. It should, however, be prerequisite that they buy into that set of conditions.

Liz wrote:

You have no right to walk down public roads in civilized areas without being harassed, no right to gather peacefully in the RP hubs that demihuman PCs frequent.

I don't see enough monster PCs to make a comment on this at all really, when was the last time someone said they had a right to go anywhere as a monstrous humanoid? lol

I think its pretty generally accepted that if your a monstrous race, you may get 'picked' on.

EDIT: For example, first time my lizard folk went to Cordor, he got beat up, spit on and thrown off the bridge. Was fun RP. city of tolerance my tail

im sorry liz but i just don't see why we ALL have to be mega evil creatures just so you can feel justified if you kill a PC monster character. some species, yes as a whole are pure evil as its there in a nearly instinctive way. but just as dragons are willing to make half dragons with some random halfling, it should be allowed at least a some flexibility.

If the 'rule' on PVP ever changes, no doubt half the elvish population would be killed immidately by people who hate elves(which i know many who do.) so it isnt just MPC's that should be treated as they should. heck currently winya shouldn't even have friends from what the old PC's did to screw up their reputation. I know for a fact a few slaughtered kobolds for laughs when i was playing one.

one i want to see however is a list on the forums where MPC's are not allowed in cities? it makes it easier.

I play a dwarf. I try to keep him to your stereotypical suspicious, pesimistic, hostile, grump head towards anything that doesn't resemble a common PC race. But i have had to adapt this attitude throughout his time on Amia as everytime he leaves his safe little dwarven hole in the mountain, and walks the streets of Cordor or sits outside of Bendir Dale he is confronted with a gaggle of oddities. Goblins, Kobolds, Dragon things, Demon things, Angel things, weird shape shifting things, drow, now birdy things.. All I can really do is think that he has become so normalised to monster PCs in civilised areas during his years on Amia that he is no longer outright hostile towards them but tolerates them as they have not ever posed a threat towards him or others that he has seen. If the kobold or what have you is sitting there chatting with an elf, a hin and a human it doesn't really give the impression of a dangerous baby eating monster.

Luckbringer wrote:

I play a dwarf. I try to keep him to your stereotypical suspicious, pesimistic, hostile, grump head towards anything that doesn't resemble a common PC race. But i have had to adapt this attitude throughout his time on Amia as everytime he leaves his safe little dwarven hole in the mountain, and walks the streets of Cordor or sits outside of Bendir Dale he is confronted with a gaggle of oddities. Goblins, Kobolds, Dragon things, Demon things, Angel things, weird shape shifting things, drow, now birdy things.. All I can really do is think that he has become so normalised to monster PCs in civilised areas during his years on Amia that he is no longer outright hostile towards them but tolerates them as they have not ever posed a threat towards him or others that he has seen. If the kobold or what have you is sitting there chatting with an elf, a hin and a human it doesn't really give the impression of a dangerous baby eating monster.

Hi! You are a freakin genius. You know why? You actually said the word "adapt" in a reference to your character's roleplay. I know... it's so hard... SO SO SO SO hard... but you do it. Other good roleplayers do it too! And you know what? It's what makes good roleplay and good storytelling what it is.

Perhaps what we can learn from this conversation is this: actually listen to other players.

I know. It's so hard to do when they are saying things that you have been told since you were a teenager are SO WRONG in D&D, BUT, give it a chance. Let it play out, and adapt. When that's done, good stories come about. When it's not done, and a huge spam of OOC comments come out, RP stops, story stops, might as well log off.

Liz is not stating everyone must be super evil if playing a monsterous race. She is merely making a point that these monsterous races have a certain reputation around entire Faerun as an evil race. Elfs are not monsterous race nor a evil race in general. They oppose most monsterous races which would not generally be well accepted, instead in Amia. Even if we wanted to, we cant go killing around monsterous races PC's because, for some reason, these monsterous races are well protected by others.... even though they are what they are... monsterous races that have earned reputation to be killed on sight. From very old days. Even Amia has history of difficulty with these, The Horde war, The War of the Trampled Leafs, Kohlingen Siege and numerous other incidents where moneterous races have rise to raize and pillage places, or try such. Her point simply is that due to these past memories that have formed the races reputation and what they are known for, should allow our PC's to be extremely opposed towards the monsterous races. A good example is actually Winya Ravana which simply doesnt allow monsterous races inside it, well.. evil monsterous races. They barely desire humans there but it is very normal elven community regulation. Usually evil monsterous races approaching or seen in their lands would be met with arrow in their back or chest. We give option to leave for PC's because we hace to due to the PvP regulations, even when lore would allow the action entirely. Orcs, kobolds, goblins...To me tion but a few... they are all part of Anti-Seldarine.

Plus I've never known Liz to be PvPer... I dont think she really enjoys it nor is trying to "justify her pvp".

EDIT: Typos with cellphone...

I don't see the use of an ooc list where monstrous races aren't allowed, just assume 'everywhere' and be surprised when you aren't haresed/ kicked out somewhere. I agree with Liz and Mags monstrous pc's do have a certain reputation that may be hard to shake but you choose for that when you decide to play one just like Liz says.

I realise it keeps the amount of monstrous pc's small but I think that's a good thing.

It's good rp to find out ingame where an orge or hobgoblin would be welcome I'd say. If they pelt stones at your toon then he/she probably isn't welcome in that settlement and has a fine reason for a grudge or to prove him/ herself an exception in the eyes that settlement.

It also is a fluid thing. Bendir Dale pretty much doesn't allow monstrous races in with the exception of kobolds.
Why does a settlement with gnomes in it allow kobolds would be a good question then. The answer would be PC actions. Ofcourse, some other PC kobolds work quite diligently to have the exception reversed.

I enjoyed seeing some visiting dwarves getting itchy fingers when they saw poor Kurchin in the Dale and tried to ignore him since they couldn't kill him (By emoting ignoring him instead of not emoting at all)

If you need some good spots to hang out KingArtur I would recommand Kampo's (many people pass there and it's neutral - even had an orge bouncer in it!) and to a lesser extend Amia forest or outside the Dale. Between those spots you should be able to find people.

Committing Genocide in the kobo caves and bragging about it: its alright, who cares, we all do it, its fine.

Publicly slagging off that kobo PC: Welp, got sentenced death, 47 times.

The feeling I get when I see the above (exaggerated obviously) is peer pressure forced tolerance which might even stem from OOC as everyone wants to the exotic, unique, special, hero and or a villain. It then falls into insanity and insanity lowers the bar making the previous non-normal a normal thing. Then it goes full circle and we go touchmob those racist elven bastards.

The differance there is that the kobolds in the cave attack you and the kobold standing under the tree near Bendir Dale does not.

But yes, I taste some ooc sentiments too when people clamour ic that all should be given a chance to prove themselves and there shouldn't be discrimination. Those are noble sentiments indeed in real life but not entirely suitable for a fantasy world.
Not even an upstanding LG paladin would allow an ogre he doesn't know (or doesnt know extremely well) in the city he lives in (Oh, he slew five people before the guard took him down after someone bumped into him? What a pity, he seemed so polite at the gates when I let him in. Hey, where are my spells?)

I say there should be racism and discrimination ingame. About all races consider themselves the best and a lot of wars are being fought over races hating each other fiercely.

Gender equality? Depends entirely on the races involved, no monstrous race recognizes both genders as even remotely equal as far as I know and neither do drow.
Hin, dorfs, surface elves and gnomes are more about genders being equal and humans are humans so they are unpredictable as usual though the majority of humans in FR isnt very much into gender equality I think (adventurers being an exception.)

So yes, our little fantasy world certainly isn't perfect morally with a lot of racism and bigotry in it and I would like to see it remaining that way.

Disclaimer: Discrimination and racism have no place on the server ooc'ly and should be fully restricted to ingame situations.

I don't think this server's really built for those who want to play fully monsterous monsters. It is built for adventurers who seek adventure. Generally by default if you are sticking to PnP FR lore any PC monster is an exception to the norm of their race by being outcasts by choice or force. Then in turn they have to seek other means to survive alongside the more civilised races.

On Amia these monster characters end up becoming mainstreamed into the adventuring community by frequenting the same hunting areas, urban areas and markets or joining party of tolerent like minded humans and demi-humans. From that grows acceptance to some degree with the ability for those to differentiate between the monster and the civilised brute. But that journey is and should be difficult for the monster to adapt and find acceptance with the risk that they will find discrimination along the way, exile or a quick death as soon as they show their beastly nature.

There is really little alternatives to this model without a dedicated monster lair and hunting areas with many active members. With the exception of the underdark, however which does in my mind have potential and setup for somewhat acceptance of those true monsters.

Hudson wrote:

The differance there is that the kobolds in the cave attack you and the kobold standing under the tree near Bendir Dale does not.

Very good! This is what you say first then the rest of your post you talk against what you just said. Because for all we know the kobolds in the cave is attacking you because you're waltzing around in their home in the same manner that the kobold in your example is waltzing around in Bendir Dale. The wrong part happens when people start acting differently without any IC premise just because they know that the kobold in Bendir has a PC behind it, not because he isnt acting hostile at the moment.

Spawn a hostile kobold under the tree in Bendir and remove the AI so he doesnt do anything and see how long it takes before someone kills him. Either way its close to impossible to RP a character who is truly is judgemental towards other races or even straight up evil as hell because of the disney-holding-hands-everyone-is-happy-hero-wins OOC mentality leaking IC. There should be a crack down on it in my opinion but I do know its harder then it looks because it is an online fantasy game afterall.

As ever, I blame Deekin.

Terra_777 wrote:

Hudson wrote:

The differance there is that the kobolds in the cave attack you and the kobold standing under the tree near Bendir Dale does not.

Very good! This is what you say first then the rest of your post you talk against what you just said. Because for all we know the kobolds in the cave is attacking you because you're waltzing around in their home in the same manner that the kobold in your example is waltzing around in Bendir Dale. The wrong part happens when people start acting differently without any IC premise just because they know that the kobold in Bendir has a PC behind it, not because he isnt acting hostile at the moment.

Actually, the kobold cave was replaced with a goblin cave, so there aren't any kobold caves to mass slaughter anymore. The ones that have survived are the ones who adapt and abandon a typical kobold's ways, both PC and NPC, I've found. Still, their damage to Cordor means that they're not allowed within Cordor's jurisdiction,

Though I do want to touch up on a similar topic, that would be 'freaks' of the more accepted races. I find that in a lot of cases, PCs are very forgiving even to known mass-murderers. Why is that? Shouldn't they be shunned as well? Should PMs, RDDs, open demon/devil cultists or practitioners of evil faiths count as well in this? Honestly, if you want monsters to be shunned, I see a more global problem. It honestly, wouldn't make much sense for a goodly (or even neutral) person to shun a kobold for being a kobold while being buddy buddy with a known mass murderer, a palemaster, and an open Asmodeus cultist, for example.
Similarly, when such characters are shunned by goodly groups, we get a lot of complaints about them excluding evil PCs from RP. It's something that stirs up a huge load of complaints, but this and that are mutually exclusive, can't have one without the other.

Similarly, there are some things that throw up immediate retaliation from PCs but others of which people are far more forgiving. People who have undead/demons summons out tend to get jumped a lot, whereas a known murderer if he's being civil I find oft gets invited for tea by local PCs. I'm really not sure what the disparity is.

I'll just say this as the Cordor DM, monstrous PCs and freaks are very unlikely to gain citizenship, they'll be tolerated as long as they don't cause trouble and provide coin for the merchants, but they'll get tossed at the first sign of trouble. I've more than once had guards look the other way when someone was picking on a 'shunned' group, for example. (And in one case, ignoring outright hostility and murder on their watch)

The1Kobra wrote:

Though I do want to touch up on a similar topic, that would be 'freaks' of the more accepted races. I find that in a lot of cases, PCs are very forgiving even to known mass-murderers. Why is that? Shouldn't they be shunned as well? Should PMs, RDDs, open demon/devil cultists or practitioners of evil faiths count as well in this? Honestly, if you want monsters to be shunned, I see a more global problem. It honestly, wouldn't make much sense for a goodly (or even neutral) person to shun a kobold for being a kobold while being buddy buddy with a known mass murderer, a palemaster, and an open Asmodeus cultist, for example.
Similarly, when such characters are shunned by goodly groups, we get a lot of complaints about them excluding evil PCs from RP. It's something that stirs up a huge load of complaints, but this and that are mutually exclusive, can't have one without the other.

Similarly, there are some things that throw up immediate retaliation from PCs but others of which people are far more forgiving. People who have undead/demons summons out tend to get jumped a lot, whereas a known murderer if he's being civil I find oft gets invited for tea by local PCs. I'm really not sure what the disparity is.

This is what I was hoping for to come out of this discussion, I want more persecution and witch-hunting, but Amia has just grown to be so adopting of "different" folk I doubt this will happen unless something like the Kobolds did happens again.

Quote:

Similarly, when such characters are shunned by goodly groups, we get a lot of complaints about them excluding evil PCs from RP.

The Kohlingen bans being a prime example of that.

In short. I am all for treating monstrous races with caution and preduce but attacking them on sight is against server rules so that just isn't an option. It's not open pvp season when you see a monstrous pc - on the other hand, that goes for him as well. Failing outright pvp I'd say preduce and discrimination (ic!) are the way to go.

As for your example Terra, I don't think that is very fair because a lot of people react much more strongly to the red then they would to the race.
Spawn a non-hostile npc kobold under the tree and see when it's killed. Chances are it won't.

Hudson wrote:

Quote:

Similarly, when such characters are shunned by goodly groups, we get a lot of complaints about them excluding evil PCs from RP.

The Kohlingen bans being a prime example of that.

The Kohlingen bans are a special case in my mind because a ban that is enforced by OOC means is simply an RP-killer even if you allow PC's to do something with 'DM-supervision'. Shunning a PC is one thing, having a ban-system that forces you to ask for permission to RP is another. This is off-topic though, but since it was mentioned I just wanted to put my few cents in.

On topic however, I think that monstrous races are in a terrible boat when it comes to finding RP and they will always be. Most PC's including my own immediately wonder what business the said monstrous PC would even have out here 'socializing' in Bendir Dale. I have seen that happen plenty of times, and the monstrous PC's rarely stick around for long. In many of the cases I would consider it "taking a concept and bringing it too far from the original". It just doesn't work in the long run.

@Kobra the kobold was an example, it could just as well been a gobo PC or any freak which the general individual would perceive as freakish including PMs, demon, devil, dragon, fey people, paladins shooting justice out of their eyeballs, etc. Obviously a community of paladins shooting justice out of their eyeballs as a norm would perceive average Joe to be a freak.

@Hudson red is dead touches the subject actually, you don't ICly go "oh, shit that guy is red!". However its natural that your character figuratively sees some races as red. They are called monster races for a reason, they arent known for their civilized behaviour and good tea-manner. But some people pretend they are because OOCly they know there is a PC behind the character. Much of that has to do with the people behind the screens, we arent assholes, its hard to ICly be a dick even if you know full and well your character should be in said situation.

Part of me agrees with you Terra but part of me doesn't.

Yes, a character should respond strongly to an orc walking in when he routinely kills orcs for their loot or orcs killed him three times now.

No, this orc would behave differantly then a typical orc, he/she would be far less threatening and likely a deal more intelligent and wise then his more typical kin so a slightly less extreme response may be warranted based on that.

Just like an adventurer stands out between commoners a monstrous pc stands out between his typical kin.

Monstrous Races - Open discussion.

Who is online