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bidocks wrote:

I read how taunt works... I was asking about on our server, its usefulness. In single player, I know its useful, but here? Apparently, people have godlike skills against everything here. Interesting, I've never figured out how to have 80's in discipline, lore, spot, search, concentration and still have tumble dump, UMD, crafting skills and spellcraft at usable levels. Anyway.... thanks for the inputs so far and I will come up with something for my final feat!

Epic gloves of discipline = +30
Maxed out skill = +33.
Combined = 63.
You then use a Rogue's helmet = +10 Discipline.

And voila: 73 discipline. Then add Epic skill focus: Discipline and you are capped.

One skill, maybe two, but all? I have heard claims of it. Can't see how.

They might mean they have multiple gearsets? Otherwise I'd be sceptical of those claims, even on a human Rogue30 or Bard30 with pimped base INT.

bidocks wrote:

One skill, maybe two, but all? I have heard claims of it. Can't see how.

I think there's a lot more braggadocio then we might think around here. Not *every* build has 6+ skills at 80+, plus all 9 'must have' feats, while running 75 AC and +60 AB (which is exactly what it seems like is claimed sometimes). I could be wrong, I don't get in much PvP... but I haven't lost much PvP either, running my 'sub-par' builds.

Ok, so... I'll ask again, would 35-37 taunt be useful for me or not?

I'm undecided on a final epic feat for my cleric. Toughness was in there (long story why it's not pre-epic), but... at a loss. I know, you'd need the full build to really help at all, but, I thought taunt might be interesting. Uce said I'd need 70-90 to do casters and bosses. If that's true.... waste of time for me. However, if taunt is useful outside of PVP, then... maybe. Opinions?

35+1d20 means your enemy needs 55 to resist it. Most epic monsters and bosses and people have 40+.

So.... it's useful? Or.. it's not? 40+ can mean 41 and it can mean 101.

If it's something you'd not be taking until high epic levels anyways, probably not useful. If it is intended only for casters and bosses, probably not worth your feat (since concentration is a class focus, while your just dabbling in taunt). While levelling I've been using taunt a lot though, if you have 3 attacks, and only one would hit, taunt means two would. It's been crap against casters though, even with full ranks dedicated to it (but no gear). If it's not a dedicated thing, it won't be too useful at max level, unless you put a decent amount of gear towards it.

In PvP I dont think anyone other than casters takes concentration. It's nice against taunt, but its crossclass and there are more important things.

Yes, If you get it high enough.

Sorry. Wasn't aware you were asking for a simple answer. I am a little bit of a Math geek.

Thanks, clears it up nicely!

On the subject of taunt, yes. It's pretty sexy. There is nothing that resists my bard with 100+ and the 6 "extra ab" comes in pretty damn handy in pvp or especially them bosses.

6 Taunt was working 75% of the time on Frost Giants, including Rangers and Mages?

Well. Not all Mobs were designer properly. I always use a check-list when I balance mobs. But I suspect the frost giants are a remnant from the old days.

bidocks wrote:

6 Taunt was working 75% of the time on Frost Giants, including Rangers and Mages?

You can check their Concentration roll in the battle log. It's the DC of the taunt, after all. Funnily, they really rolled 6 to 19 Conc (very small sample), meaning that even the Stormcalles seem to have about 0 Conc.

Regards
Ts

I have a vague memory of leaving them with bumpkiss for Concentration on the grounds that they usually have Premo and Greater Stoneskin running, and I didn't see the merit in penalising everyone without a +5GMW or any of the early-use +5AB weapons, when the Death Armour does a fabu maxo job of that already.

Or I might have just missed it. I forget; I only tweaked their spell list to account for Disco's AI, so I possibly didn't change anything else and they were indeed old as dirt when I updated them.

So, tying in with a question on a new character concept I vaguely posted about in General Questions, a build question I have is ...

Right. Well. Thinking of making a Tiefling worshiper of Cyric and all that.

Build wise very much want to go with some combination of Cleric/BG. (i know, I know.. Tiefling race with -2 CHA and BG aren't optimal (presumably)). What I'm interested in knowing is which summon rates as better? The Epic Fiend of a BG, or one of the Mummy Dust critters (with a reskin at some point)?

I'm not super, mega interested in an awesome build and how to split the levels (baring the requirements of either summon feat) and everything, I'm more curious about which rates as a better companion to fight with in the grand scheme of things. Because with the race (halfling base) and diety choice (Chaotic Evil, so no Monk lvl to sneak Cleave onto the build) as is the build's gonna suck regardless.

'Cos at this minute my hearts telling me just go for the BG summon, baby 'cos it's reet cool conceptually... but my head's telling me to ask first, due to my regular time zone playing time requiring quite a bit of soloing to get any decent gold/levels. Besides, if I go Mummy Dust it means more Cleric which = more Cyric worship, baby.

The Epic Fiend is probably a bit stronger, but to get it you'll need at least 15 BG levels, meaning you can't be an epic Cleric and your spells will suck. On the other hand, if you went Mummy Dust, you'd have the buffs of a 21+ Cleric and end up with a stronger summon overall anyway because of that. Also, Cleric's much easier to solo with.

That was pretty much the other dilemma there for me, the trade off of decent Cleric spells to summon strength.

My only (about 80% likely to be true, more likely totally wrong) reasoning behind going less Cleric is the fact that most of the half-decent early on buffs would, at ... say ... 14 Cleric, last the full 15 minutes in between rest breaks. Sure, they wouldn't be great, but with Extend spell and all.

Sure, breaks up the actual act of monster smashing a bit, but oh well.

Though, like I said, I'm probably speaking gobshite.

Cheers for the answer though!

That's true, but the majority of cleric spells only reach their potential in the latter levels. Magic Vestment/GMW becomes +5 at level 15, Darkfire scales all the way into epic, Shield of Faith is +5 at 18, etc.

If you were really into going Epic BG so you could still probably make it work alright, but dispels will make you weep.

Preface: I'm not a professional power-build character builder.

I've been thinking it about it most of the day. I've done some tests in character planners and came out unconvinced. Overall it appeared marginally different between the builds I tried.

First, Paladin or Fighter. My character's personality is more Paladin, but a chivalrous fighter would suit him as well. Are the special abilities and spells worth trade off and vice versa? If I'd be significantly more effective with one class over the other, I'd choose that class.

Sword & Shield or Two-swords. I know, totally different. But, I can't make up my mind. How much more survivability does a shield actually offer? Would tanking without one be viable? Is the damage output of dual wielding significant? On paper the difference was negligible.

Strength or Dexterity build. I suppose this question only applies when dual wielding. Do I get more AB and Damage from a pure strength build, a dexterity focused build or somewhere in-between?

If you're talking straight up pure paladin vs fighter, I should think that the paladin is mechanically stronger. Less feats but a lovely collection of spells and abilities that really amplify their capability.

That said, there is nothing to say you have to go with one or the other. A combination of paladin and fighter with maybe a splash of rogue or monk could be just what you're looking for.

24paladin/4fighter/2rogue - Immunity to greater dispel, Epic Weapon specialization, Evasion, Tumble, UMD
25paladin/4fighter/1monk - Immunity to greater dispel, Epic Weapon specialization, Evasion, Tumble
23paladin/6fighter/1monk - Vulnerable to greater dispel should you roll 1s, Epic Weapon specialization, An extra feat, Evasion, Tumble

And those are just a few ideas! Doing a search for paladin at the bottom of this topic will also show you a whole lot of posts on the subject which could be helpful.

A tower shield offers 8AC if it's a +5 one. That's quite a lot of defense. Tanking without one is obviously harder but a paladin has divine shield, which is something to keep in mind too.

A strength build has more damage whilst dexterity will help with your defenses. Weapon finesse if dual wielding will cover any concerns you might have regarding AB.

Most importantly, take your character where you feel their roleplay should take them.

Baratan wrote:

Paladin vs Fighter stuff

Paladins are no doubt the stronger of the two, but are far stricter in how they should be RPed. They've been given spells and abilities by their god to be a crusader in said god's name. There is far more to a paladin than chivalry, and I would argue that not every paladin need be chivalrous.

With a fighter, however, your best bet is to multiclass into rogue and weaponmaster for their various skills. You basically have carte blanche on the RP end of it, too. You're not forced into the doctrines of one faith or another (not that you are with paladin, but you risk being Fallen).

Where tearsofthewyrm gave you paladin builds, I'll give you a couple fighter ones:

Rogue 17 / Fighter 6 / Weapon Master 7 -- My personal favorite. DEX based, epic dodge, Rapier focus, epic weapon specialization, epic spot if you want it. This thing is really, really solid.

Fighter 12 / Rogue 2 / Weapon Master 16 -- Strength based. Dev Crit if you want it, whichever weapon you want to use works just fine. I recommend something 1 handed so you can use a shield for AC, though.

Hi guys,

Just started this server again recently, planned to play some years back but never got into it like I have now.
I've been working on a rogue/divine champ/sd dwarf dual wielder. 16/8/6,
Feats are always going to be tight with dual wield and im finding it difficult to get IMP KD and ITWF in the same build without something else suffering.

Pre epic im taking the following:

Dodge
mobility
wep focus
imp crit
blind fight
ambidexterity
two weapon fighting
(feat 1)
(feat 2)

At this point I have 2 feats remaining, I can either take kd and ITWF or kd and imp kd.
Im going to get most of my damage from sneaks so IMP kd for targets that can see me seems helpful, yet I cant help but feel like im shooting myself in the foot by not taking ITWF.

Any suggestions on this dilemma of mine?

Thanks,

Looking at building a dex based BG with epic dodge and epic summons. Is it best to go 13 rogue 16 BG and 1 ftr or would the character be more effective to give up epic dodge and go 10 rogue / 16 BG and 4 ftr for better AB?

Epic Dodge is the dope, bruv. I'd be simply too vexed to miss out on it. Also, you want to consider Ranger1 to nab that free dualwield in case it befits your concept.

@Garlana

There IS a pair of gloves that gives ITWF as a feat, and nothing that gives IKD, so pick your preference really.

Garlana wrote:

Hi guys,

Just started this server again recently, planned to play some years back but never got into it like I have now.
I've been working on a rogue/divine champ/sd dwarf dual wielder. 16/8/6,
Feats are always going to be tight with dual wield and im finding it difficult to get IMP KD and ITWF in the same build without something else suffering.

Pre epic im taking the following:

Dodge
mobility
wep focus
imp crit
blind fight
ambidexterity
two weapon fighting
(feat 1)
(feat 2)

At this point I have 2 feats remaining, I can either take kd and ITWF or kd and imp kd.
Im going to get most of my damage from sneaks so IMP kd for targets that can see me seems helpful, yet I cant help but feel like im shooting myself in the foot by not taking ITWF.

Any suggestions on this dilemma of mine?

Thanks,

Ditch blind fight and take ITWF and imp KD. Blind fight is a situational bonus, ITWF and IKD always apply. It also looks like you aren't taking very many CoT levels, which makes the bonus from it fairly minimal. If you go FTR 4 instead, you'll only miss out on +2 saves (peanuts) and gain one feat instead.

If you ever think that your character might be involved in PvP you do not want to pass up on Blind Fight. Therefore, if you don't wish to use certain gloves then the best option seems to be Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Knockdown.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Epic Dodge is the dope, bruv. I'd be simply too vexed to miss out on it. Also, you want to consider Ranger1 to nab that free dualwield in case it befits your concept.

Thanks. Was leaning to Epic Dodge. Ranger makes more sense than fighter too.

Firstly thanks for all your responses,

Quote:

Ditch blind fight and take ITWF and imp KD. Blind fight is a situational bonus, ITWF and IKD always apply. It also looks like you aren't taking very many CoT levels, which makes the bonus from it fairly minimal. If you go FTR 4 instead, you'll only miss out on +2 saves (peanuts) and gain one feat instead.

Imo i feel blind fight is essential, the toon i will be playing is a relatively greedy Duergar that can be quite rude from time to time, so pvp is something that i would expect on the odd occasion. But to clarify, im under no illusion about being thoroughly spanked by long server players due to my lack of knowledge/experience on this server. I've dropped cot for fighter now.

Kamina wrote:

@Garlana

There IS a pair of gloves that gives ITWF as a feat, and nothing that gives IKD, so pick your preference really.

Thanks for this response, as my knowledge of the items in Amia is very limited, would it be fair to say that using these gloves would ultimately hinder me from wearing another glove/bracer that i would be missing the huge benefits of?

Basically, the build i want needs to have a lot of skill points, a good amount of sneak damage, crippling strike, dual wield and to be a Dwarf race.
I want to dabble in traps as well as be able to do the normal stuff rogues are renown for (opening locks/disarming traps/spotting them).
I have thought of dropping SD in order to gain a few extra feats from removing the sd prerequisites, this allows me to get ITWF, Imp KD, blindfight and weapon spec pre epic. But im worried that by not taking SD that i wont be half as effective at solo play and in pvp.

I have the following builds in mind:
24 rogue/6 fighter - pre epic - 16/4

Pre epic Feats: ambidex,two-weapon fighting, imp two-weapon fighting, imp crit, wep focus, wep spec, blind fight, kd, imp kd, defensive roll, crippling strike, imp evasion.

Epic feats: great dex I, esf -hide, esf set trap(unsure on), armor skin, epic wep spec, epic wep focus.epic dodge, epic prowess.

Skills to take: disc/hide/ms/open lock/disarm trap/set trap/tumble/umd (still some points left over, do i max craft trap? do i take spot even with poor wisdom?)

Alternatively i go with SD to allow constant sneaks and applications of crippling strike, but i lose out on ideal feats and skill points.
18Rogue/6fighter/6sd
12/4/4 pre epic.

Pre epic feats: ambidex,two-weapon fighting, imp crit, wep focus, wep spec, blind fight, kd, dodge, mobility, imp evasion and finally IKD or ITWF?

Epic feats: great dex I, esf-hide(or skill mastery for in combat traps), epic wep focus, crippling strike, epic dodge, armor skin, epic wep spec.

Both builds end with the same stats:

10str
26dex
12con
16int (need the skillpoints!)
8 wis
4cha(if Duergar)

Are traps any good? worth crafting? worth heavy investment or not at all?

Honestly, I would drop the two weapons stuff entirely,. That shield AC really is nice, and since you are focusing on 3/4 AB classes, that extra -2 AB is gonna hurt even more. There's also a dagger that gives ambidexterity and TWF, which would give you more versatility. Basing builds on items is a bit iffy though, so YMMV.

You might also look at master scout instead of SD. HiPS is nice, but master scout gives you some nice bonuses you can't get other ways (some 'survival gear', special trap modifications, +2 AB outdoors, +4 hide/ms outdoors, +5 universal saves, permanent freedom, plus a few extra epic feats if you plan things right), and also is something unique to the server. Admittedly, I am somewhat biased against SD (HiPS is totally cheating! Corner Sneak for life!), but I would take MS 5 over SD 6 in a hearbeat.

If you are going for 18 rogue, you might as well go for 19 and get that 4th rogue feat, plus one extra d6 in sneak attack. That might leave you at rogue 19/fighter 6/MS 5 if you went with my suggestions.

I am about to roll a str based ranger and I am wondering if I should go for a small weapon for better dualwielding or a large weapon for more damage with a shield? I am also wondering if getting kukris is worth getting over blindfight if I am rolling for small weapons and dual wielding?

Small. Handaxes or short-swords or maces or whatever. Going medium is a no-go on a class which get's ITWF for free

I have a 'sword-&-board' Ranger who does Just Fine; if you're going to dual-wield on a STR-based...anything, you'll constantly struggle with AC.

A LOT.

But duh, it's a free feat and you can switch between as a free action to suit the occasion.

Casvenx wrote:

Honestly, I would drop the two weapons stuff entirely,. That shield AC really is nice, and since you are focusing on 3/4 AB classes, that extra -2 AB is gonna hurt even more. There's also a dagger that gives ambidexterity and TWF, which would give you more versatility. Basing builds on items is a bit iffy though, so YMMV.

You might also look at master scout instead of SD. HiPS is nice, but master scout gives you some nice bonuses you can't get other ways (some 'survival gear', special trap modifications, +2 AB outdoors, +4 hide/ms outdoors, +5 universal saves, permanent freedom, plus a few extra epic feats if you plan things right), and also is something unique to the server. Admittedly, I am somewhat biased against SD (HiPS is totally cheating! Corner Sneak for life!), but I would take MS 5 over SD 6 in a hearbeat.

If you are going for 18 rogue, you might as well go for 19 and get that 4th rogue feat, plus one extra d6 in sneak attack. That might leave you at rogue 19/fighter 6/MS 5 if you went with my suggestions.

Actually i really like your suggestion, i guess i overlooked MS due to it being a Amia specific class. I've been doing some research on the master scout traps and im assuming the damage/rolls on them are dictated by your set trap skill? Would it also be a good idea to max craft trap?

Thanks!

The Master Scout doesn't actually gain special traps, they gain the ability to upgrade existing traps with unique effects. They don't need Craft Trap to make their stuff, though you do need 2 ranks as a prerequisite.

Noct'uul wrote:

I have a 'sword-&-board' Ranger who does Just Fine; if you're going to dual-wield on a STR-based...anything, you'll constantly struggle with AC.

A LOT.

I will of course switch between dual wielding and sword/shield situationaly, just wondering if the damage bonus going medium is worth the ab decrease when going dual wielding with two medium weapons.

I guess I have kind of made up my mind, so is going kukri worth blind fight and the damage decrease? or should I go for short swords instead and keep blind fight?

Shortswords. Blind-Fight too good.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Shortswords. Blind-Fight too good.

Why? the times blind fight have been useful for me have been close to non-existent, more often than not I've found my ways around it just because improved invis whether you got blind fight or not. Besides, I could offer kd or toughness instead

Toughness isn't worth taking in 95% of situations. 30 HP (assuming you have no ECL) is nowhere near as valuable as most other feats.

While you can use Invisibility Purge to dispel it from mobs, there's some which have concealment that you can't get rid of. And for those, prepare to miss a lot.

Self conceal and one of the shifter's undead shapes are about the only thing you'd need blindfight for, if you don't have UMD. If you do, just hit the latter with a scroll of heal a couple times. Problem solved. The former is only going to happen PvM, not PvP, and it'll be likely the rest of your party took the feat because it's sorely overrated.

Nope, Displacement is the main thing to watch out for, which is on a few mobs and easy to acquire as a buff if we're talking PvP. If we're talking group PvM, sure, but that's the same as saying don't bother with AC because someone else in your party will be able to tank.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Toughness isn't worth taking in 95% of situations. 30 HP (assuming you have no ECL) is nowhere near as valuable as most other feats.

While you can use Invisibility Purge to dispel it from mobs, there's some which have concealment that you can't get rid of. And for those, prepare to miss a lot.

I don't know really, what weapon I should pick. The character will be strength based ranger, will of course have a shield and I'll go for dev crit.

The weapon choices stand between:
Long sword (pro: highest base damage con: lowest ab when dualwielding) (it's also the weapon his deity prefers, and it sort of fits with the strength based more than the others)
Short sword (pro: decent base damage con: piercing)
hand axe (pro: decent base damage, slashing, high crit multiplier con: low crit range)
Kukri (pro: high crit range con: low base damage and will cost an extra feat)

The feats I will have but that I won't need for Dev crit are:
toughness
blind fight
kd

So I basically have a hard time deciding what to use.

Mace. Ditch dev crit, go for AB instead. Take IKD and called shot; they stack nicely.

Dsiplacement might be an issue, but usually the CL on items is so low it's fairly easy to get rid of or simply wait out. It's never been a real dealbreaker for me, not even against bards (does it stack with ethereal visage here?). For me it basically just means things take a bit longer, that's it.

Full casters, well...

Honestly you shouldn't be letting them buff at all.

I believe more and more that Devastating critical isn't worth it. IKD Is by far much better, and worse to combat.

BorntoKill is right.

Okay I have an issue. I was told an half elf-air genasi was able to take AA but turns out that was a lie, and since the character is built specifically to be an good archer, that REALLY screws me over since it is impossible to change once it is started.

I need strong archer builds I can use that doesn't use AA, since I am absolutely screwed in that way.

Help..?

The next best is using a divine caster and doing zen wisdom, next is to have epic dodge from rogue levels, and rogue lets you be deadly with daggers or whatever with your sneaks anyhow.

Or you can be a DEX Ranger that switches between ranged and melee. It's a halfway decent solution for being a master marksman, but otherwise the concept is solid and fun in its versatility.

Ok.... got a crazy idea to make yet another character..... Female Elven Rangery type. I'd like Epic Dodge, and she will use a longbow and dual shorties.

Now, I could go 17 Ranger 13 rogue.

Or 10 Rogue, 6 SD and 14 Ranger.

Orrrrr...... 12 Ranger, 5 Master Scout and 13 rogue.

ORRRRRR.... skip Ranger altogether and do 12 fighter, 5 master scout, and 13 rogue.....

Or! 10 SD, 5 Master Scout, and 15 ranger/fighter....

So many choices!

I guess my question is.... Is Master Scout that good? I've not seen many and I don't know their "secret" things they make.

Also, is HiPS worth it? Is it worth making a Ranger without Bane of Enemies?

All you experts out there.... Please help!

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