AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Tools to help understand rp action time vs reaction time.

I don't know where this should be posted, but I'd like to bring this up for folks that rp such things, as to better understand them, and would also like too start seeing such enforced, as it should be role playing, and not power rping.

-Shifting doesn't take seconds, it takes minutes, going from an regular person to an wyrmling, from an wyrmling too an construct takes quite an bit of time. Not to mention, not all areas can accommodate such forms. An person shifting too an dragon in an Inn, will collapse the Inn on them, shifting into an construct, is something made of full iron, doing it on an boat would cause it too crumble apart and sink you too the bottom.
(If HIPS has an timer on it, I'm suggesting an timer be placed on shifts that is longer, so they properly understand this, and don't use it as an power rping build. Based on size differences from large too small etc)

-Blind Sense, isn't an homing rocket, it makes you aware there is someone within an radius. So this doesn't give you any hint to where they are, they just let you know someone is there. If you're in an warehouse with three hundred crates, you'd have to look through each crate, check the rafters, underneath the rug, and even then may find them.

-Mass travel jumps compared to running. One whom shadow jumps an distance of say thirty feet, runs up twenty stairs, then disappears, is long gone compared to those whom have to run the full length of the ship, run the stairs, jump over the side.

-Electricity in water is just stupid, if ye cast it, you should be liable to rp you taking the damage as well, like all AoE spells.

-Action vs reaction time- Just because you make the ic post, doesn't mean that it's an go and has been done. Wait for an scene to be set up, when it comes to these points, spell times aren't really realiable, as it takes longer for some to type than others. Do be realistic in this.

(Other suggestions do feel free too post them here, but I mean honestly folks, think about it. Just cause I have ED, doesn't mean I just run around spamming, "He dodges that with supernatural reflexes, just cause he can.")

RE shifting: Script it so it takes five rounds with hostiles present. Just enough to die like a b***, but not enough to be a major inconvenience.

I notice that is b*** and not b*****. You must mean die like a bard.

Yossarin wrote:

I notice that is b*** and not b*****. You must mean die like a bard.

I'm a big fan of one Elan's early days :mrgreen:

I'm going to take things as they're given. I don't understand what you're trying to say with 3/5 of your points, but if Shifting takes a round and lightning magic does not damage me underwater in game, then that's how it is.

Yeah what exactly is the source on this shifting thing? Is it on the site?

IronAngel wrote:

I'm going to take things as they're given. I don't understand what you're trying to say with 3/5 of your points, but if Shifting takes a round and lightning magic does not damage me underwater in game, then that's how it is.

^

Do you have any source material that states shifting takes several minutes? As for the underwater/electric thing, it's magic.

I think they are trying to make a suggestion. I get what they're saying, sort of. I've witnessed shifters changing into ten or twelve different forms for buffing purposes, all one right after another. I'd think that wouldn't be possible that fast, and that's what Night Mother is getting at. I wouldn't mind seeing Shifters have a timeout for shifting to reflect that it -does- take time to shift. After all, if we base power on popularity of a class, Shifters are powerful, since there's so many of them. They could stand a bit of a timeout and still be perfectly within canon lore of what it takes to make a shift as well as not losing any abilities.

My 2 cents, though, of course, someone will hate this.

I disagree. Most of the long-lasting shifter buffs are fairly mediocre, and the short-term ones are really quite short. They're not bad, but wizards get far stronger buffs which they can activate without having to take a round off to shift.

And really - who says it takes that long to shift? That's a very arbitrary distinction based on a judgement of a supposedly "powerful and popular" class. There aren't that many shifters around anyway.

Naivatkal wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

I'm going to take things as they're given. I don't understand what you're trying to say with 3/5 of your points, but if Shifting takes a round and lightning magic does not damage me underwater in game, then that's how it is.

^

Do you have any source material that states shifting takes several minutes? As for the underwater/electric thing, it's magic.

Does it state anywhere HIPS has an cool down timer?

Quote:

Minor Shapeshift (Su): At 2st level, a shapeshifter gains the ability to change her appearance at will, as if using the disguise self spell, that affects her body but not her possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration that affects the shapeshifter’s facial features, skin color and texture, height, weight, frame, and gender within the limits described for the spell, she cannot change her body type. The alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but the shapeshifter reverts to her natural form if she is killed. A true seeing spell or similar ability reveals her natural form. Using this ability is a standard action. If the shapeshifter uses this ability to create a disguise, she gets a +10 bonus on the Disguise check.

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Quote:

Shapeshift (Su): At 3rd level, a shapeshifter gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The shapeshifter does not gain the physical ability scores of her new form. When the shapeshifter assumes a new form, she loses her racial modifiers (bonuses and penalties) to her physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) and gains those of her new form. The racial ability scores of the assumed shape can be determined by subtracting 10 (if even) or 11 (if odd) from the creature's listed score. The effect lasts for 1 hour per shapeshifter level, or until she changes back. Changing form is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time she uses shapeshift, she regains lost hit points as if she had rested for a night.

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Quote:

Fast Shapeshift (Ex): At 7th level, a shapeshifter can use her shapeshift and minor shapeshift ability as a move action instead of a standard action.

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Last edited by Naivatkal on Sun, Jun 01 2014, 16:28 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Night Mother wrote:

Does it state anywhere HIPS has an cool down timer?

Yes, in our homebrew lore since that was a server change. In PnP, it's up to your DM.

And what Yoss quoted; shifting is a round action and doesn't take several minutes according to lore.

edit: And regarding HiPS, since it will likely be asked: Yes, the cooldown is necessary. With the way HiPS works in NWN, it was broken because it was an auto-win button. Before the nerf you could literally break the person (or monster) attacking you. Going into HiPS auto-breaks the attacker's action queue, meaning if you were good at abusing it you would never get attacked while you continue to dish out damage to them. In PnP, that sort of thing doesn't happen.

Welp, if that's how you wanna play, be my guest. It's definitely good to know.

I'll be certain never to unstealth around your characters, wether I have HIPS or not :lol:

Naivatkal wrote:

Night Mother wrote:

Does it state anywhere HIPS has an cool down timer?

Yes, in our homebrew lore since that was a server change. In PnP, it's up to your DM.

And what Yoss quoted; shifting is a round action and doesn't take several minutes according to lore.

edit: And regarding HiPS, since it will likely be asked: Yes, the cooldown is necessary. With the way HiPS works in NWN, it was broken because it was an auto-win button. Before the nerf you could literally break the person (or monster) attacking you. Going into HiPS auto-breaks the attacker's action queue, meaning if you were good at abusing it you would never get attacked while you continue to dish out damage to them. In PnP, that sort of thing doesn't happen.

Then home brew lore could very well do the same too shifters as an de buff as well. Aye, HIPS can break auto attack, that is actually the way it was suppose to work, you can't attack what you can't see, and before home brew lore here, that's exactly what rply they could do. Much like shifters can change into things with all immunities if they want, buff with each, and free spam on spells that they get with each form. Such can be over powered as well.

You're confusing two kinds of arguments. It is quite different to say that shifting should take time and we should make it take time, on one hand, and that players should pretend it takes time because it would take time IC. It does not take time and you'll need a much stronger argument to convince everyone we should change IC reality and depart from both NWN and D&D rules (around which the class has been balanced) to satisfy your preference.

Yes, however in PnP a DM can literally tell you 'nope, can't do that'. That's exactly what happened here; and because NWN is more wonky than PnP because you have a DM controlling the attackers.

As for shifters, they are balanced in other ways. Forcing shifters to have a cooldown will just make the class unappealing.

Making use of their forms is part of what defines a Shifter. Forcing cooldowns on changing form would be akin to doing the same between spell usage. In any case, as far I'm concerned, the length of time it takes my character to shift is exactly as long as it appears in the game.

tearsofthewyrm wrote:

Making use of their forms is part of what defines a Shifter. Forcing cooldowns on changing form would be akin to doing the same between spell usage. In any case, as far I'm concerned, the length of time it takes my character to shift is exactly as long as it appears in the game.

That's cool. I can see the floating name telling me who he is, too, you know?

IronAngel wrote:

You're confusing two kinds of arguments. It is quite different to say that shifting should take time and we should make it take time, on one hand, and that players should pretend it takes time because it would take time IC. It does not take time and you'll need a much stronger argument to convince everyone we should change IC reality and depart from both NWN and D&D rules (around which the class has been balanced) to satisfy your preference.

Once again, you're refering to nwn and DnD lore, This is an Homebrew server as you said, what is the logic behind HIPS having an cooldown? Other than to stop the reason it was made to flicker fight, there is no rp reason to say it can't be done. Yet you want an DnD/rp reason for the shifter to be done. I still think being able to personally shift with no cooldown to any situation, is actually over powered. And as stated the above posts were meant for rp situations, and not mechanic ones.

Because being able to continually dance between stealth/attacking and prevent retaliation is a far cry from shifting speed. And as a matter of fact, its possible to be attacked between shifts as it is.

A mechanical argument.

serbiris wrote:

I disagree. Most of the long-lasting shifter buffs are fairly mediocre, and the short-term ones are really quite short. They're not bad, but wizards get far stronger buffs which they can activate without having to take a round off to shift.

And really - who says it takes that long to shift? That's a very arbitrary distinction based on a judgement of a supposedly "powerful and popular" class. There aren't that many shifters around anyway.

Additionally: shifter immunities make them versatile and quite good, but these immunities have been looked at and balanced by the team. You'll have to do a lot of work to convince them other than simply stating that these immunities are present and you feel they are OP.

Yet, you're immune to sneak attacks/death attacks and crits in most later forms, so how does it matter? And any good pvper knows how to stop flicker attackers.

Edit: You all are missing the point of the arguement, it's nothing to do with mechanics. *Gasp* Surprisingly, someone is referring to rp events etc. It's fine, I understand, my character has ED and I'll just rp it from now that he avoids everything from now on, as it's in game, mechanic wise, and turn based.So rply I can rp it pretty much whenever.

It's always amusing how this myth of flickerfighting being uncounterable persists through servers. :lol:

What's flickerfighting?

Do you know how much time it takes to put on a full plate? Certainly more than half a second. I'm against this. It's pointless.

Yossarin wrote:

What's flickerfighting?

Hotkeying your attack command and stealth, then shifting between the two while possessing HIPS to sneak every attack you make and break your opponent's attack and keep them flatfooted. It's a bit cheesy, but it fails, hard, against people who know what they're doing.

Night Mother wrote:

Edit: You all are missing the point of the arguement, it's nothing to do with mechanics. *Gasp* Surprisingly, someone is referring to rp events etc. It's fine, I understand, my character has ED and I'll just rp it from now that he avoids everything from now on, as it's in game, mechanic wise, and turn based.So rply I can rp it pretty much whenever.

No, you're missing the point. Saying "this class is OP" and saying "it's nothing to do with mechanics" makes absolutely no sense. You are specifically referring to the mechanical abilities of a class through a mechanical context of power level. Roleplay is extrapolated from our capabilities IG with the understanding that there are limitations based on the nature of the program. Cooldowns are possible but have never been considered by the team. Imagine that? Maybe because the class doesn't need them to be balanced.

Absolutely by all means, roleplay Epic Dodge however you like! No one really cares. There are specifically no rules about what happens when players use the dice roller in typical roleplay situations. Good luck getting it past a DM though, or handling PvP.

BornToKill wrote:

That's cool. I can see the floating name telling me who he is, too, you know?

Because that has anything at all to do with things. It's metagaming and you know it, so it's not even relevant.

Night Mother wrote:

Edit: You all are missing the point of the arguement, it's nothing to do with mechanics. *Gasp* Surprisingly, someone is referring to rp events etc. It's fine, I understand, my character has ED and I'll just rp it from now that he avoids everything from now on, as it's in game, mechanic wise, and turn based.So rply I can rp it pretty much whenever.

You can't separate RP and mechanics like that. What sense does it make to say 'oh it takes several minutes to shift while I'm RPing but then in combat it's a round action'? You also said that a cooldown should be implemented but that is a mechanic. So... you can't claim this isn't about mechanics when you are speculating on implementing a mechanic.

As for ED, sure you can do that in RP so long as you only do it every six seconds. Because ED lets you avoid the first attack against you every round. A round is six seconds, therefore someone trying to hit you will miss unless you want them to hit you. But ED is also primarily a combat feat, though you can use it in RP as well. Besides, if someone is trying to hit you more than once it's probably combat anyways which makes your point invalid.

Stop being facetious, it doesn't help your argument.

Naivatkal wrote:

BornToKill wrote:

That's cool. I can see the floating name telling me who he is, too, you know?

Because that has anything at all to do with things. It's metagaming and you know it, so it's not even relevant.

It's not metagaming. I can see it in engine.

serbiris wrote:

Night Mother wrote:

Edit: You all are missing the point of the arguement, it's nothing to do with mechanics. *Gasp* Surprisingly, someone is referring to rp events etc. It's fine, I understand, my character has ED and I'll just rp it from now that he avoids everything from now on, as it's in game, mechanic wise, and turn based.So rply I can rp it pretty much whenever.

No, you're missing the point. Saying "this class is OP" and saying "it's nothing to do with mechanics" makes absolutely no sense. You are specifically referring to the mechanical abilities of a class through a mechanical context of power level. Roleplay is extrapolated from our capabilities IG with the understanding that there are limitations based on the nature of the program. Cooldowns are possible but have never been considered by the team. Imagine that? Maybe because the class doesn't need them to be balanced.

Absolutely by all means, roleplay Epic Dodge however you like! No one really cares. There are specifically no rules about what happens when players use the dice roller in typical roleplay situations. Good luck getting it past a DM though, or handling PvP.

Yet, rply, it makes sense that an full construct can shift inside the storage room of an boat, or an dragon inside an Inn, and the building/craft not take any damage? Now that seems more illogical than anything I've said about epic dodge. As for handling pvp, I do just fine in it, thank you though <3

We would love to remove the floaty names. I would love it, the DMs would love it. But they're there because we cannot perfectly reproduce character/game world proportions, exact appearance down to eye colour, facial structure, complexion and every other specific detail. The things we should be able to note at a glance. So because of the system limitations we have to keep the stupid floaty names.

BtK, as you shouldwell know it's specifically against the rules to metagame the stupid floaty names. Shifting once per round isn't. You think this should be changed, the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise you're just wasting time.

Night Mother wrote:

Yet, rply, it makes sense that an full construct can shift inside the storage room of an boat, or an dragon inside an Inn, and the building/craft not take any damage? Now that seems more illogical than anything I've said about epic dodge. As for handling pvp, I do just fine in it, thank you though <3

What does this have to do with cooldowns?

serbiris wrote:

We would love to remove the floaty names. I would love it, the DMs would love it. But they're there because we cannot perfectly reproduce character/game world proportions, exact appearance down to eye colour, facial structure, complexion and every other specific detail. The things we should be able to note at a glance. So because of the system limitations we have to keep the stupid floaty names.

BtK, as you shouldwell know it's specifically against the rules to metagame the stupid floaty names. Shifting once per round isn't. You think this should be changed, the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise you're just wasting time.

Night Mother wrote:

Yet, rply, it makes sense that an full construct can shift inside the storage room of an boat, or an dragon inside an Inn, and the building/craft not take any damage? Now that seems more illogical than anything I've said about epic dodge. As for handling pvp, I do just fine in it, thank you though <3

What does this have to do with cooldowns?

Read all of original post thanks.

BornToKill wrote:

It's not metagaming. I can see it in engine.

Even if this was not a specific case that is probably explicitly mentioned somewhere and, if not, is the kind of common knowledge you can expect everyone to pick up, the comparison is not valid. There is no inconsistency in maintaining a WYSIWYG policy as regards in-world phenomena and keeping the game user interface separate. Your character does not see the minimap, party list or chat bar either; but they do see when someone shapechanges and can probably count how long it takes.

There's really nothing to discuss here, though. The matter is beyond simple. Shifting takes however long it takes, and if you think it should take longer, the burden is on you to convince everyone else. Produce positive arguments beyond "we could if we wanted to."

Last edited by serbiris on Sun, Jun 01 2014, 17:46 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Night Mother wrote:

Read all of original post thanks.

I have. What's your point? You clearly pull out of your hat the idea that shifters need to take time to shift. Where is your evidence to support this claim? Why should we agree with you?

Or are you saying that we should make a rule that it should be RP'd this way, despite not receiving a good reason? That wouldn't be practical without a mechanical cooldown. Imagine it - every time a shifter changed forms, everyone would check their clock. "Hey, that was within the (say) thirty second cooldown! It was 22!" "By my watch it was 30!" "You're both wrong, the cooldown is 48 seconds and that was only 25!" and then you have to call a DM in. Every. Single. Time.

I have no disagreement about shifters needing to be mindful of the physical capabilities of the class, relating to size and weight. Absolutely. Call a DM if ever a PC violates this. But you have nothing whatsoever supporting your assertion that it "takes minutes to shapeshift, not seconds".

Not to mention the heavy efforts already performed to balance shifters as they are. While that might be a matter of debate in the eyes of some, its not really the subject matter-- so much as all the effort and careful balancing already performed.

Shifter on amia has no cool down, so it only takes as long as it takes in game, so a few seconds.

As for your comments about people using forms IC in stupid ways that should nuke buildings, that's up to the DM to enforce like all environment effects...ect if I run around yelling Orcus with no DM on it will do nothing, if I say it when a DM is on it has a chance, same thing with hell balling buildings or what every spell you want.

Last edited by Naivatkal on Sun, Jun 01 2014, 18:15 PM, edited 1 time in total.

BornToKill wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

BornToKill wrote:

That's cool. I can see the floating name telling me who he is, too, you know?

Because that has anything at all to do with things. It's metagaming and you know it, so it's not even relevant.

It's not metagaming. I can see it in engine.

Stop trying to be a troll, you are failing hardcore.

Night Mother wrote:

Yet, rply, it makes sense that an full construct can shift inside the storage room of an boat, or an dragon inside an Inn, and the building/craft not take any damage? Now that seems more illogical than anything I've said about epic dodge. As for handling pvp, I do just fine in it, thank you though <3

That really doesn't have anything to do with cooldowns and such, but I wholly agree. Unless it's a big building (like the EO cathedral in Nes'ek, for example, or a huge cave) then shifting into a dragon is silly (dragons are larger than constructs, though the weight is a factor). We take it with a grain of salt, though, to keep the game fun. Though it would be neat to disallow dragons in small buildings it would be hard because then we'd have to place rough dimensions on everything and that's a chore and unfun. It's the same as with hellball and stuff.

Heck my drow is very wary about using Earthquake in the UD because of how easily that can do awry. Granted, there's nothing that will make something bad happen if no DM is around but it's something I still take into IC consideration because, well, it's fun.

You see, no matter what one posts in regards to an change, there will be disagreement with it. I see no reason on why HIPS should have an cool down, or why shifters have unlimited spells in these forms, can flicker between them and buff with each one. Buffs should be removed from one form to the next, and should only have so many casts like any spell caster class. As for shifting between them, it depends on how the server rps them. Previous servers have rped it as the physical shape changing, and not just magical zip, character is turned, bam changed in seconds. But as it stands, it was merely an suggestion on rping the situation that got blown out of proportion, cause folks didn't like what was said.

Naivatkal wrote:

you are failing hardcore.

Yes, you are.

You are missing the point Naiva that above statements say if it's available in the game engine, then they'll rp it anyways. If one can cast electricity in water, and it doesn't affect them, then they'll take it etc. As it seems no one can maturely debate on forums anymore, I'll no longer be posting on this.

Night Mother wrote:

Yet, rply, it makes sense that an full construct can shift inside the storage room of an boat, or an dragon inside an Inn, and the building/craft not take any damage? Now that seems more illogical than anything I've said about epic dodge. As for handling pvp, I do just fine in it, thank you though <3

That really doesn't have anything to do with cooldowns and such, but I wholly agree. Unless it's a big building (like the EO cathedral in Nes'ek, for example, or a huge cave) then shifting into a dragon is silly (dragons are larger than constructs, though the weight is a factor). We take it with a grain of salt, though, to keep the game fun. Though it would be neat to disallow dragons in small buildings it would be hard because then we'd have to place rough dimensions on everything and that's a chore and unfun. It's the same as with hellball and stuff.

Heck my drow is very wary about using Earthquake in the UD because of how easily that can do awry. Granted, there's nothing that will make something bad happen if no DM is around but it's something I still take into IC consideration because, well, it's fun.[/quote]

-This on the other hand is awesome, and part of what I'm trying to get at. It's the logical sense behind rping such things. (Have no idea how this quote stuff works, my bad.-

I'm disappointed with how this ballooned, too. If you're not able to discuss responsibly on our forums, you'll just be taken off of them. The staff isn't kidding when we say that forum behavior needs to improve.

Take it as a blanket warning.

Night Mother wrote:

You see, no matter what one posts in regards to an change, there will be disagreement with it. I see no reason on why HIPS should have an cool down, or why shifters have unlimited spells in these forms, can flicker between them and buff with each one. Buffs should be removed from one form to the next, and should only have so many casts like any spell caster class. As for shifting between them, it depends on how the server rps them. Previous servers have rped it as the physical shape changing, and not just magical zip, character is turned, bam changed in seconds. But as it stands, it was merely an suggestion on rping the situation that got blown out of proportion, cause folks didn't like what was said.

If the forms could not use the powers a unlimited amount, or if the buffs dispelled when unshifted... the class would be 100% useless again like it was years ago when the only one who played them was more or less me.... not that I had a problem with that I liked having a class to myself.
The problem was in the end was without the spells/buffs the forms are all just a crap melee fighter with any of the perks of being a fighter,barb,WM...ect what ever class you want to pick for melee its got bad AC,AB,attacks per round, no real weapon feats all the stuff that makes the class good at what it does.

As per you comment to the spell casters, maybe we should add a effect of making them more logical and PnP based, only getting to rest once a day and it taking 5-8 hours was it? so assuming each IG hours about 10mins, that means you can only rest every 4 hour IRL, and when you do rest, you have to sit there for 50-80mins!

Night Mother wrote:

But as it stands, it was merely an suggestion on rping the situation that got blown out of proportion, cause folks didn't like what was said.

As far as I understood you suggested a mechanical change of the class, not a way of RP. You asked for something to be enforced. That's the reason why people are not pleased.

Night Mother wrote:

I don't know where this should be posted, but I'd like to bring this up for folks that rp such things, as to better understand them, and would also like too start seeing such enforced, as it should be role playing, and not power rping.

-Shifting doesn't take seconds, it takes minutes, going from an regular person to an wyrmling, from an wyrmling too an construct takes quite an bit of time. Not to mention, not all areas can accommodate such forms. An person shifting too an dragon in an Inn, will collapse the Inn on them, shifting into an construct, is something made of full iron, doing it on an boat would cause it too crumble apart and sink you too the bottom.
(If HIPS has an timer on it, I'm suggesting an timer be placed on shifts that is longer, so they properly understand this, and don't use it as an power rping build. Based on size differences from large too small etc)

-Blind Sense, isn't an homing rocket, it makes you aware there is someone within an radius. So this doesn't give you any hint to where they are, they just let you know someone is there. If you're in an warehouse with three hundred crates, you'd have to look through each crate, check the rafters, underneath the rug, and even then may find them.

-Mass travel jumps compared to running. One whom shadow jumps an distance of say thirty feet, runs up twenty stairs, then disappears, is long gone compared to those whom have to run the full length of the ship, run the stairs, jump over the side.

-Electricity in water is just stupid, if ye cast it, you should be liable to rp you taking the damage as well, like all AoE spells.

-Action vs reaction time- Just because you make the ic post, doesn't mean that it's an go and has been done. Wait for an scene to be set up, when it comes to these points, spell times aren't really realiable, as it takes longer for some to type than others. Do be realistic in this.

(Other suggestions do feel free too post them here, but I mean honestly folks, think about it. Just cause I have ED, doesn't mean I just run around spamming, "He dodges that with supernatural reflexes, just cause he can.")

Here is the full post again, so you can read it all, and see that it was an suggestion on part of the whole list of the topic that was originally posted.

I read it and I disagreed. (Well, I did not understand what you tried to say with three of your points, so I just commented on shifters and electric spells.)

I don't think you've considered the full implications of what you're proposing. It's not as simple as saying "everyone should role-play the time it takes to do things properly." If that time is not accurately represented in game, how do you expect people to just know what that time is supposed to be, and agree on it? Or to agree on just how, exactly, spells and abilities are supposed to work outside of their mechanical, rules-governed behaviour? If even we cannot agree on what's reasonable in a formal forum discussion with source references, why do you expect better results from random people in game?

DM DELETE.

Make another post like this and we'll issue a ban.
- Hackums

WYSIWYG.

That is, what you see is what you get.

It's utterly unreasonable to expect everybody who wants to pick up NWN and play with us to sit down and sift through 20 sourcebooks to play a vidya game. Claiming otherwise more or less is just offputting and akin to those RP elitist, goosestepping servers who continually are ever-empty.

Do you see spells on me? Yep, they're visible then. Guy takes a second to shapeshift? Then he takes a second to shift. This is important because it -puts everybody on the same page-. There's no discussion or question, blue is blue and up is up.

Now if people would like something changed to more closely fits a sourcebook, bring it up in discussion and make points toward a mechanical change.

Quote:

Quoted post was edited by DM

Um I didn't say that?

Night - though I see your point and understand what you are trying to get at there is no doubt that the issue of "enforcing" is not going to happen.

But...

MightNMagic wrote:

It's utterly unreasonable to expect everybody who wants to pick up NWN and play with us to sit down and sift through 20 sourcebooks to play a video game. Claiming otherwise more or less is just off putting and akin to those RP elitist, goosestepping servers who continually are ever-empty.

Do you see spells on me? Yep, they're visible then. Guy takes a second to shapeshift? Then he takes a second to shift. This is important because it -puts everybody on the same page-. There's no discussion or question, blue is blue and up is up.

Now if people would like something changed to more closely fits a sourcebook, bring it up in discussion and make points toward a mechanical change.

Points out the most reasonable and likely answer to the general discussion. There will always be mechanical issue that conflict with your idea of rp, and overall time wise who wants to sit around waiting for x-amount of minutes for a change? If you discuss it with whatever group you're with, they will be either be inclined to agree to rping that the time elapsed, or not, depending on the group. but in the general overall game play, It simply is what it is and you have to work with some things the way they are.

There will always be issue with one class being op in comparison to other (like the unlimited spamming for the shifters) and the staff really does try to address them and adjust (my poor wizards Y_Y). They don't have the easiest of job at it thanks to in game items that bolster abilities and stats and whining, I mean player feed back, but I agree that if you have actually sourcebook supporting a change to make a suggestion, you can post it in the improving Amia section and if it's a good idea and mechanically possible I think you'll get at least a decent argument for or against the general idea.

Tools to help understand rp action time vs reaction time.

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