AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Creating magical items

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Luckbringer

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 11:15 AM

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Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Location: The frozen north

A question regarding the creation of magic items. Can scrolls be used to fullfil the prerequisites for enchanting items?

For example to create a +2 Longsword of Sharpness it could require the casting of keen edge spell during its enchantment process. Can the spell be cast from a scroll by a non-spell caster?

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Manarethan

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 11:25 AM

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Joined: 23 Feb 2008

I don't believe so. The feat 'Craft Magic Arms and Armour' is technically required to create magical weapons and armour, and the feat specifies that they must have prepared (or know, in the case of bards/sorcerers) the spells required. Thus, scrolls presumably would not work.

Luckbringer

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 11:43 AM

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Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Location: The frozen north

Thanks Mana. This was my understanding as well with the use of the word prepared in the feat discription. However, curiosity was peaked thinking about the rather homebrew nature of Amian magical item creation considering the many magical items that have been created in the game without the required 'Craft Magical Arms and Armour' feat. Understandably so, since its not a NWNs feat and it would require a custom feat request for everyone wish to make a magic item. With this in mind would scroll use be feasable since we are not following PnP rules anyway?

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Manarethan

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 12:01 PM

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Joined: 23 Feb 2008

Personally I'd prefer to keep it to not including scrolls, but that's just my own taste.

Rigela

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 12:11 PM

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Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Location: Grimy Old England

Likewise in this sense. Allowing scrolls/wands to be used would just make it even more trivial. You wouldn't go get any old person who could swing a hammer to make you armour, for a bad analogy.

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Nivo

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 12:18 PM

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Joined: 09 Jan 2009
Location: East of Elsewhere, West of Sometime

I don't like the idea of using a magical item in the process of making a magical item. It dilutes the process. And given the prevalence of scrolls and UMD, trivializes the effort.

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corypx

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 12:18 PM

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Joined: 14 Oct 2006

On the topic of making magical items....

The mythal system is IC wrong, your not doing anything its all the cleric/forge assistant but for some reason you have to roll a skill check?

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Luckbringer

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 12:54 PM

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Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Location: The frozen north

Gotcha, makes sense. Thanks team.

Mythalling, never made much sense for me. I always RPed my character using the forge and mythal to enchant an item. I thought the clerics were there to charge a tax on using the magic of the forge.

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 15:44 PM

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

corypx wrote:

On the topic of making magical items....

The mythal system is IC wrong, your not doing anything its all the cleric/forge assistant but for some reason you have to roll a skill check?

I've never heard of this. AFAIK, you pay a cover fee to use the forge, then they let you to it.

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Yossarin

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 16:30 PM

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Joined: 23 Jan 2006

It is a DM call, but I've never had a PnP situation where you couldn't fulfill the spell requirement with a scroll. Excepting maybe in the creation of an artifact, but they have a different ruleset, usually. The challenge is built into the scroll already: if you are an arcane caster and the magic item you are creating requires a divine spell, better have some UMD or you'll screw up the scroll and the money you spent on reagents. And vice versa.

I personally think scrolls should generally be allowed as part of the crafting process because if you don't you suddenly restrict crafting to an incredibly narrow group of people, rather than any arcanist who invests points in Craft Armor/Craft Weapon/Spellcraft (NWN) or just plain old Spellcraft + Feats (PnP). It's actually the feat investment in PnP that would make restricting scrolls from the process so heartbreaking, but you don't really suffer that in NWN.

Pathfinder, for example (you guys are going to call me a broken record for referencing them all the time) clears up any problems that might have existed in the original 3.0 wording under the Magic Item Creation Rules:

Pathfinder SRD wrote:

These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.

It is ultimately a DM call, though, but I would caution that if you restrict scrolls you will rarely see anyone crafting any magical items because a lot of the cooler items require spells that aren't even in the module anyway.

serbiris

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 17:36 PM

Player

Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia

Manarethan wrote:

Yeah this is actually not entirely true, check the 3.5 DMG - which is the same as the Pathfinder dealy bit Yoss quoted. Verbatim, "access through another magic item or
spellcaster is allowed". Look it up, page 282. Come on guys, this is basic stuff. Call it trivialising or diluting the process - it's in the damn manual. If you want to homebrew it, say that you're homebrewing it, but don't misquote the source.

I dug further to see how you reached this conclusion - basically misreading feat descriptions. Here's the SRD link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#cra ... msAndArmor

Quote:

Craft Magic Arms and Armor: You can create any magic weapon, armor, or shield whose prerequisites you meet. Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes one day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features. To enhance a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you must spend 1/25 of its features’ total price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this total price.

Most of them are like this. But craft wand/scribe scroll:

Quote:

You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. Crafting a wand takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a wand is its caster level × the spell level × 750 gp. To craft a wand, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price. A newly created wand has 50 charges.

See in this specific case, yes you're right - you need to know the spell. But ONLY wands, scrolls - everything else DOES NOT REQUIRE knowledge of the spell.

Your fears are unwarranted however, and I think Luckbringer is also out of luck - item creation also requires a Caster Level. +1 and higher gear requires the creator's caster level to be three times the enhancement bonus (So +1 requires CL3, +4 requires CL12, and so on). Various specific items have their own CL listed. This isn't the CL of the spells used in creation, mind, but the CL of the creator. So not every rogue with UMD can craft magic items. Scrolls and wands have the additional restriction upon actual arcane casters, but everyone else remains locked out regardless due to absence of Caster Level.

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Glim

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 17:47 PM

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Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: British Columbia

Personally, both as a player and as a DM, I've never done magical item creation using UMD and probably won't. Any time Ranny's ever done work on magical items or works of artifice, I've always had him track down clerics or druids or bards for magic that he doesn't have access to as a wizard, and involved them in the crafting process. It's a great way to generate RP if nothing else. And as a DM, it just seems hokey to me that a rogue could manage to fudge his way through reading a scroll, and fudge enough understanding and access to the Weave to draw those magical energies into the right place, and then somehow bind them to that item in a permanent fashion. I'm a big fan of UMD being used to "fool" magic, but not -create- it.

Dergaii

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 17:48 PM

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Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Waffles, Beer & Chocolate

Unless it has a huge drawback to go horridly wrong? :twisted:

IronAngel

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 17:59 PM

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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Since when have we not just pulled item creation out of our asses, anyway? Spell rules are the most banal and inessential part of the game, I just go with what sounds cool.

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Yossarin

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 18:00 PM

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Joined: 23 Jan 2006

Hence why I lean on the "DM's call" because they can make it cool if they want to.

Also, nice find, serbiris.

Dark Immolation

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 20:30 PM

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Dergaii wrote:

Unless it has a huge drawback to go horridly wrong? :twisted:

I could see the potential for that. If a character is casting a spell, perhaps they can give it a little nuance that helps with the crafting process. Channeling it a little bit longer, directing it towards a specific part of the artifice, changing the somatics and such to fit the actual object being created. For a magical item/wand/scroll, all the character would be doing is triggering a spell that has already been cast, basically.

That isn't to say crafting couldn't be done with items; I'm simply making a guess towards why using another item in crafting might be more risky.

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Casvenx

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 21:37 PM

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Joined: 11 Feb 2013
Location: Badlands of 'Murika

With the mythal system, I find it really odd that anyone can create magic items. It seems at odds with the other rules of how magic items are created (which are fairly upheld in DC requests). Is mythal crafting different than actually creating a magic item? If so, is there a source someone can point me to?

With an incoming hak, we *could* add a 'craft magic items' feat. I imagine it could even be created so that the mythal forge checks for that feat before it works? As it stands, it just seems sorta odd that all one *really* needs to create magic items is a point drop in spellcraft (which is available crossclass to anyone), and a handful of skill boosting items. If that's the entirety of the dedication needed on Amia, I don't see why scrolls shouldn't work otherwise (though, to be clear, I don't think they should). UMD, which is the ability to activate magic items, and/or trick your way through their safeguards... Actually permanently directing magic energies into an item should be well beyond that talent.

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corypx

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 22:12 PM

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Joined: 14 Oct 2006

Dark Immolation wrote:

corypx wrote:

On the topic of making magical items....

The mythal system is IC wrong, your not doing anything its all the cleric/forge assistant but for some reason you have to roll a skill check?

I've never heard of this. AFAIK, you pay a cover fee to use the forge, then they let you to it.

Na its all the NPC, the skill checks were just a way to make people soak points into something that was viewed as otherwise useless. As your enchanting objects with magical powers and spells that in some cases your not even a casting class, how could you be enchanting it?

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 22:18 PM

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

corypx wrote:

I'm sorry, but I think you're mistaken there. There are more ways to enchant an object than simply casting a spell on it. And the explanation of "soaking up" points doesn't even make any sense. Maybe you're thinking of the Thayvian crafting system? Otherwise, that's simply your own explanation. There are plenty of ways a non-magical class could craft magical equipment, be it through alchemy, material, or other means.

In the case of mythal crafting, the most common explanation I've found over the years is that you're using the crystallized magical energy to impart a specific property. The more energy, I.E. the bigger the mythal, the more powerful the property you can add. The magical power is already there, ready to be unlock via armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, or spellcraft. Thats how a mundane class could be enchanting it, as you say; they're taking a material and working it into another. How mythal forges work has only been detailed very vaguely over the years, so there are different possibilities. But nothing currently speaks to the cleric attendant doing all of the work, especially when there is at least one working forge in the module without an NPC attendant present.

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corypx

Posted: Wed, May 07 2014, 22:34 PM

Player

Joined: 14 Oct 2006

Dark Immolation wrote:

corypx wrote:

No I don't think I am, when I was doing my mythal research with Tormak I'm near 99% sure he himself stated it was incorrect as the forge workers were doing it and not us, and by them doing it and not us it makes us having to roll skill checks illogical, but instead of letting anyone changing there gear at random they tossed in the skill checks

Quote:

◾ Craft armor is used to craft shields, helmets, and armour.
◾ Craft weapon is used to craft ammo and weaponry.
◾ Spellcraft is used to craft other items.

Even if we have no reason to be rolling a check as we are not the ones doing anything.

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Luckbringer

Posted: Thu, May 08 2014, 6:45 AM

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Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Location: The frozen north

serbiris wrote:

Your fears are unwarranted however, and I think Luckbringer is also out of luck - item creation also requires a Caster Level. +1 and higher gear requires the creator's caster level to be three times the enhancement bonus (So +1 requires CL3, +4 requires CL12, and so on). Various specific items have their own CL listed. This isn't the CL of the spells used in creation, mind, but the CL of the creator. So not every rogue with UMD can craft magic items. Scrolls and wands have the additional restriction upon actual arcane casters, but everyone else remains locked out regardless due to absence of Caster Level.

Actually, my characters custom PrC gives him the 'craft magic arms and armour feat' with a CL of 15 as he is 5th level. So if we were using the PnP rules as quoted he can create +5 weapons and armours without being a caster class. Which was part of why I was wondering about using scrolls in the crafting process to fulfill the other prerequisites of creating certain magical items. Obviously, my characters case is unique, unless others wish to request custom PrCs or feats. But the question still could apply to the example of a mage with UMD using a divine scroll in their magical item creation.

However, as this is Amia. Feats aren't required or CLs to create +5 weapons and armours. There are DC requests out there of master smiths making +5 gear without the use of magic but instead interesting and imaginative RP showing the crafting of a super high quality weapon that I guess counts as an equivalent +5 magical weapon. Which I think I prefer as it allows much more variation and creativity without having to rely on caster classes to do all the heavy lifting. Of course there should be limits to what can be made without magic. A +5 Holy Avenger obviously needs to be blessed with magic somehow. And as Glim points out it is nice to work with others on these projects.

Also perhaps I should have been clearer in my OP, as perhaps not necessarily your average store bought level 1 flame weapon scroll would work for the creation of a Short Sword of Fire. But instead a scroll would have to be specifically made with the right potency and scribed for the specific purpose of creating a magic item? I.e this would increase the effort required and difficultly in acquiring a said scroll.

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serbiris

Posted: Thu, May 08 2014, 6:54 AM

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Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia

Oh you'll be fine then. I had a feeling your PrC wpuld grant a CL. Rules-as-written any storebought scroll is fine - remember that in the setting, ubiquitous as magic is, scrolls aren't as common as coke cans as is implied by the merchants represented IG. Besides flame weapon scrolls come out of the box at CL17.

DMs may lrgitimately rule it differently but that's the RAW and I personally think there are better ways to check the creator's effort and attention to detail than the brand of spell scroll being used. But that's just me.

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Hudson

Posted: Thu, May 08 2014, 10:00 AM

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Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Location: Bendir's Dale

Pretty much what most people feel here.

If the rp is cool and the character doing the enchanting is feasable (Pure barbs likely will need some help creating a sword +5) I am not easily fussed.

Waving a scroll around using UMD around and hoping to permanently imbue an item with that magic is a very optimistic thought I feel though. But by all means, feel free to try it

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kiancorb

Posted: Sat, May 10 2014, 6:33 AM

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Joined: 10 May 2014
Location: 123 street

hello sir have a nice day, am what is this magical item for, is this an weapons,sounds really interesting to know.

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Murex

Posted: Wed, Oct 29 2014, 23:45 PM

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Joined: 01 Dec 2009

So how is mythal infused into an item exactly?

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Yossarin

Posted: Thu, Oct 30 2014, 0:20 AM

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Joined: 23 Jan 2006

Knee-jerk response is "in a lot of ways!"

But when you realize that Mythal is a raw magic (raw Weave?) given material form, it makes some sense that the methods could be varied. Ultimately they open the door for non-casters to craft magical items, too.

Ice

Posted: Thu, Oct 30 2014, 3:39 AM

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Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Location: Usa

I'd say that goes into the category of paradigm.
In other words, use your imagination and pretend it makes sense.

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Luckbringer

Posted: Thu, Oct 30 2014, 12:02 PM

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Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Location: The frozen north

I see the mythal forges being invented as a way to automate the magic item creation process using mythals. You get limited options but any old dummy can use it.

My bent on how it works is that the forge is calibrated by the user, which takes some skill (hence the skill check) depending on the desired outcome and amount of mythal magic used. The forge then focuses the raw magic from the mythal and converts it into what ever enchantment chosen on the targeted item.

The cleric of mystra then charges you for its use in true capitalist fashion.

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Murex

Posted: Fri, Oct 31 2014, 5:19 AM

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Joined: 01 Dec 2009

Can a mythal forge be used to make magical items that are not equipable?

(I mean more like rp items I suppose)

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Kudark

Posted: Fri, Oct 31 2014, 16:55 PM

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Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon

A Mythal forge isn't used to actually make anything, but rather infuses the crystals into items that are able to accept them.

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Ice

Posted: Fri, Oct 31 2014, 16:57 PM

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Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Location: Usa

Murex wrote:

Can a mythal forge be used to make magical items that are not equipable?

(I mean more like rp items I suppose)

Iiiiiii suppose it would be possible... From my perspective, that is.
Still, better snatch a DM for this one.

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Grymia

Posted: Fri, Oct 31 2014, 19:35 PM

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Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

I would say it's dependant on the DMs really, but I do not see why not considering the past implications of the Forge. I would however also presume it likely that such is limited.

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Creating magical items

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