it is well known that the UD deals in slaves commonly and normally do not care, right? Why would a slave be forced to be level 3? wouldn't that 'reduce their worth' and make it so people don't with to play them It all (thus reduction an authentic under dark feeling)?

Why not have more special rules for that? level 30, no gear past roleplay gear DM given or 'master' given, cannot fight at all, 30 HP max. all feats are for stuff meant for roleplay? (such as skill focus' for stuff like persuade, spot, or perform.. etc.)

Added onto the fact you have a slaver job in game...

Just a question since I myself always wanted to play as a slave bard, but you can't get a decent perform skill at level 3 without making every last drop of your stats in cha which can get you in trouble if you don't play correctly on stats.

iIf something i don't know was changed about this, feel free to smack me and tell me xD.

Where exactly would you learn to play epic melodies, cast powerful spells or learn to be a Weaponmaster when you're a slave living off next to nothing?

If you roll a bard, I am guessing the reason you would be bought is for entertainment purposes and nothing more. You are a slave to the whim of the slaver PC, not their companion or assistant.

And if a slaver kills off your slave because your slave rolled less than double digits on a perform, knowing full well it's nigh impossible to go much further on level 3, they're being a dick. But also; don't use dice, use imagination!

What does the lore say about how Drow use slaves?

There are countless historical examples of slaves being used as highly trained, well equipped and highly specialized workforce and countless examples of slave warriors and entire slave armies too, so I could easily write an epic level slave character for a suitable setting or society, but that does not say it is how Drow would use slaves. A high level bard would be especially valuable property in such an environment.

I kind of suspect FR draws more inspiration from modern usage of slaves, as in the Atlantic Slave Trade and slave-run plantations, rather than medieval and ancient use of slaves, but I am not completely sure. If the former, the level restriction makes sense, but if the slavery in FR and Underdark is closer to medieval or antique slavery, I would argue in favour of removing the restriction. Can Underdark experts confirm this?

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

You have a point. But unless builds are regulated on slave PCs, it doesn't make sense that the slaves of a house would become archmages or epic weaponmasters and be capable of destroying an entire house on their own whim.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

It would not be the first time rulers make fatal mistakes regarding slaves.

For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayyubid_Dy ... l_of_Egypt

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

The rules are somewhat outdated and probably not necessary. They were, first and foremost, OOC rules devised by the community of Ultrinnan to enforce IC reasonability in the absence of freedom to act wholly IC towards them. (Such as letting them move about unchained, lack of permadeath by anyone, etc.) They were never meant to be generalized to apply outside Ultrinnan. Even then, introducing the rules was probably a bad idea and I have to take partial responsibility for advocating them, but we did experience real problems with slave and slaver players. Some of those problems may have been illusory, though.

So yeah, I think the rules should be scrapped or rewritten to be minimalistic. They need only apply to NPC-recognized institutions of slavery in certain cities, and specific limitations ought to be enforced IC. All that is required OOC is the permission to permakill a troublesome slave, and the requirement of DM supervision in any escape attempts. Purely PC-maintained "slavery" does not need additional regulation.

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as a long time drow player (who had played a slave in ultrinnan for a short time) I have no issue with scaling that up somewhat. I mean, from a logistical standpoint having level 30 slaves running around wouldn't make very much sense, whats to stop this slave whose player gets fed up one day from tearing around the city and killing all the PCs in a 'slave rebellion.' While I'm not saying this is impossible, I feel something like that would be better carried out by DMs as an event to model the other 250odd slaves rather than just one who has PC levels.

That could be another reason why slave PCs in the underdark were relegated to level 3, because they weren't considered 'adventurers' but closer to NPCs with players controlling them. Or something, I dunno.

Anyway, today I think level 3 is quite low, and would advocate an elevation to level 9, providing for three rank 1 jobs or one rank 2. Not only would this give slave PCs more to do in general, it would address the issue brought up in the first post with having to really min/max to have anything worthwhile.

Above all else, the rules should be designed in such a way that makes playing a slave enjoyable (to someone that wants to, obviously). Limiting levels to 3 vastly limits what a slave PC can do to occupy their time between when nobles talk to them.

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Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare'
Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia
Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words

The same argument could be made for any PC, really - what's to stop a level 30 Cordorian citizen from going in a rampage in the city? You might as well say an "adventurer rebellion" might be better as a DM event (though I wouldn't buy that).

Character level is an IC matter, or a mechanical approximation of IC reality anyway. We have no need, indeed no right, to control it OOC. If you take your slave out on hunts or train him to be a soldier or bodyguard, what IC explanation is there for his lack of gaining levels while all other members of the party, many of them much more casual adventurers, become powerful in a matter of weeks? If you think a slave should not become powerful and participate in combat, you should enforce that IC - not OOC. If you want to train your slaves for combat, rebellion is a real IC risk. If you want to avoid it, don't do that, or find other ways to control the situation IC. You are already given an extremely powerful tool in the ability to "permakill" a slave PC (though I RPed resurrection would still work), something unavailable in any other circumstance on Amia. Further babysitting is hardly necessary.

Anyone, PC or NPC, of any background, can achieve level 30 in days, weeks or months at most, if they're so inclined. That is the IC reality. You do not become an "archmage" or someone capable of tearing through a city at that level - you just join the club that most PCs and probably NPCs are already part of. I think much of the negative attitude towards slaves' levels has to with the impression that level 30 is somehow notable or exceptional IC. It is not; if anything, it is the rule rather than the exception.

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To play Devil's Advocate: Telling someone to not do something doesn't mean the player won't decide to just go out and hunt and level on their own. Heck some people can go from start to 30 in a few days (how?!), so there's a chance they could just beef up quickly and suddenly roflstomp their owner just for kicks.

'Level 30 club' or not, it does, indeed, change things in terms of your character's level of skill.

Now, I'd like to think that most people willing to play a slave PC are more in it for the RP fun, but it's something to consider as a valid possibility.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

The good thing about having a low level slave, is that if you "mess" up to the point where your character needs to be killed, and it's not really reasonable to come back, the mechanical 'loss' of your character isn't so bad.

My main problem is that we're going to end up with level 30's who spend so much time/effort into their characters and (from what I've seen time and time again) they will plot, piss someone who might not even be their master off, or stop being slaves, or whatever have you. At which point, they're just adventurers who pretend to be slaves.

If you mess up, you will almost definitely face real consequences, and I think raising the level cap to 30 is going to induce OOC drama almost definitely as soon as said PC pisses the wrong person off, because all 30 levels can vanish immediately into permadeath.

Being a slave is extremely difficult to RP, as it takes a lot of OOC humility, and most of the time, you may not even like where it's going. It's a challenge, certainly. Keeping yourself alive, and out of the ire of your masters is -especially- difficult in the underdark, where slaves are killed for fun. Take that away from it, and I can't really say I want that.

I'm already of the opinion that drow should be a platinum subrace, though, and would just prefer not to compromise the integrity of the Underdark, so I'm merely asking what the larger goal is here, of them being level 30..?


Edit: Also, viewtopic.php?p=1239533#p1239533 is an important read and consideration you should make before playing a slave in Nec'perya. (There has been an abnormal increase in desire of this as of late, so I'm assuming this stems from that.)

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

My understanding of the Drow society is that it has similar tendencies of the Thayan view on slaves.

Slaves are tools and exist for the sole purpose of being the tool to hold another tool should it be needed. They are disposable resource used as any drow see fit and no drow would willingly invest in a lesser being, why should they?

Slaves can of course be armed should a house come under attack but they are still nothing more than a meat shield to protect their master and by such they are still a few steps behind a Thayan Knight in standing to compare the two.

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

Like almost every "rule" Amia has, it's not because the server likes rules, it's because the generosity of the players was abused so much that a rule had to be levied by the DM's. Blame the players that just had to take advantage and get over it. If you need a slave PC, make a request, the DM's will at least consider the validity of such a situation and possibly make an exception.

Yes, slavery in the UD and elsewhere is a 'thing', but it is simply not fair to allow a player to level to 30 with a character that might be perma'd at any time simply on the whim of another player. I've never seen any long term 'Slave RP' that didn't devolve into a great OOC mess or simply go nowhere. I can only hope you can come up with something incredibly awesome to move the DM's to allow it, other than simple curiosity.

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Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

Well, this is not a mechanical tweak topic in the first place, so it should not be in IA. If you want to say anything more than "Glim can you please tweak this area/script/monster", the place to do it is GD. The topic can be moved, it's no big deal.

Whichever way you look at it, IC is IC. It does not matter how slaves "should" behave. We are not in the business of policing each other's IC behaviour OOC. The slave rules were basically mob justice, spawned out of the drow players' current frustrations, and sanctioned by DMs. (DMs never came up with them, just so we remember.) They were a mistake and they go against the spirit of a role-playing server.

The point about losing 30 levels in permadeath makes some sense, but I think it's ultimately just a specific instance of the general principle: in permadeath you lose your character regardless. The loss can be measured in time invested, and I would argue that a well-developed level 2 character can be even more heartbreaking to lose than a power-leveled cardboard type. That is a risk that goes with playing a slave in the first place, irrespective of level restrictions.

The larger goal Mimiron inquired about is simply not to have unjustified, excessive rules that 1) add bureaucracy, 2) limit player freedom and 3) confuse IC with OOC. This has nothing to do with what level drow slaves should be or what we want them to be; that is simply not within the scope of rules to regulate.

People tend to forget that rules should always be kept to an absolute minimum, they should be worded as concisely and unambiguously as possible, and there should be minimal interaction between IC and OOC. We need heavy reasons to weigh against these principles, and I am not convinced there are such in this case. Just take a look at the slave rules (posted in two places I think?) and ask yourself if every single item really is absolutely necessary. Eliminate those that aren't, and then we can discuss the core of what needs to stay in effect. (In my opinion, that is the possibility of permadeath and DM supervision to escape, and those only in settlements with NPC involvement in slavery. Everything else can and should be handled by PCs in game.)

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Why not just restrict the classes instead? Make it so that slave PCs need RP and a request to 'train' as certain classes and PrCs.

It prevents one-man-armies from showing up while continuing the theme for a 'useful' slave.

That's still an OOC restriction on something essentially IC.

The problem here is that an OOC rule (born out of someone's frustration about what "should" and "shouldn't" happen IC) is dictating what our characters can think and do. What if there is a slave who wants to train as an epic wizard, and a master who is willing to allow it - and no other IC control, since either there are no NPCs present or they have no authority over the master (who might be the first matron or the archpriestess)? How will you justify an OOC rule to prevent something perfectly IC, and how do you explain it away in game? A magical force that just slaps down certain people cosmically tagged as "slaves" no matter where they are and in what circumstances? Or is it illegal for my character (say, the master) to believe a slave might be useful with some levels? Am I breaking some rule by making my PC think like that?

It's not as if it's something unthinkable, either. We have had a few iconic slave characters down under. Dave's baby-eating monstrosity, for one, and I think Jackara was a slave at some point. They were monsters bred for the utility of their masters, and fulfilled an interesting role in society.

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What can your slave do without you being online?

When I think of "slave" I don't think of some person who runs around as an adventurer and comes back from time to time to catch up. To me, that's something else.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Level three is rather hard for any PC, but it is not impossible - speaking as someone that has done it.

Slaves shouldn't be out running around leveling on their own, that just defeats the entire purpose of playing one and is not IC.

I wouldn't object to a PC slave getting a few more levels, especially if it was in a base class like Bard. I wouldn't think PrCs would be valid until they were free in some way.

Just my .02 off the top of my head, as someone that has played both sides.

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Iim'mur'ss - Grandmaster Shadowdancer / Aaralyn - Diplomat / Oleander - Toxic Desert Flower

To be honest i understand people being worried about level 30 slaves, but as i said before, they would be specially regulated by the DM's. heck, it would be slower for them anyway as they can't get exp from anything from DC coins anyway since what are they gunna do to fight? Not a lot really.


This is more of a issue i have with so little slaves can do, even slaves can be useful, be it like gladiators or even just a cook or dancer.

its difficult, but not outside the realm of possibility (and i've seen it done first hand) to level from 3-30 with just job system XP and gold. Especially if they choose jobs that work together to have no limiting resources (gather silk without limit -> turn silk into clothes).

It might take longer than your active hunter, but unless I'm mistaken its possible to hit max level this way.

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Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare'
Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia
Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words

as for being limited with what slaves can do, I agree something needs to be done. On one hand, however, I think it can be solved by not worrying about specific rolls. You don't need to roll preform for me to think your bard is doing a good job singing a song that they've practiced hours on. You just have to emote it and I'll dig it. I think the strict adherence for roles to drive RP is a limiting factor in some circles and does nothing to add to the quality of interaction, just putting a random factor into play when there doesn't have to be one.

So yeah, open up leveling a bit to give slave PCs more to do mechanically, but don't think that just because your level 10 bard only has 15 ranks in preform that they shouldn't even try. I'll take a well emoted bard over a well rolled bard any day.

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Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare'
Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia
Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words

If I played a drow PC with a slave, putting them on the front line of my hunting expeditions would be the first thing I'd use them for. There are very few ways a PC can benefit another materially on Amia - farming the job system or helping with the grind are pretty much it.

Whether or not a PC "should" do it is irrelevant; that it is possible to have the motive IC is enough. The rules, insofar as they don't strictly represent NPC control (which they no longer do, and never did very well), must not place OOC restrictions on IC motives. That is just unacceptable on an RP server, period. We have very few equivalent rules, and they are all related to clear game balance abuses (muling, twinking, babysitting, hunting area hogging; and even they can be RPed different). No concern of equal caliber is at stake here.

For reference, here are all the byzantine rules related to slavery (drow, human, private, institutional, inside a settlement, in the wilderness, whatever):

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From the War of the Spider Queen and the Homeland trilogy, slaves are used by drow pretty much as fodder for spells. Think Russian peasants in world war 2. More bodies than they have bullets and then when they drow come in their targets are worn out or at least less potent.

If I remember House Baenre had literally thousands and thousands of just slaves. Orcs, Goblins and such. Their use is in numbers, not individual ability, since they're intended to die typically.

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Rosie Adenney - The Smiling Red Hin
Dalur Illien - Hound of Justice
Tria Under - Blunt as Stone

Is it just me or is it silly to even have an OOC designation for a character at all? This is a roleplay server. We don't have slaves, we have characters.

I can't even fathom what sort of strange, messed up person would want to login and waste their life standing around at level 3 all day.

I can't even find this "rule," is it actually a rule or some weird PC adopted thing?

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Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)

How is it an OOC designation? It's an IC designation, the rules simply say 'slave characters' to make it easy to recognize what they are referring to.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

It is a rule

And just because you can't fathom wanting to doesn't mean others don't.

Some people don't want to engage in torture RP, other people willingly submit to being the victim in torture and sacrifice. Just because you don't want to partake doesn't mean others don't

And really, saying someone is 'messed up' because they are roleplaying a slave is a pretty uncalled for personal attack on everyone on the server who is currently playing a slave and has played a slave in the past.

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Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare'
Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia
Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words

I beleive he meant about the rules, Zan.