ok... I know this has been posted before in other topics... but it is sunday, and I am being lazy by not searching for them....


However... I would like to post a gripe concerning the correlation between religion, alignment, and the way it is role played.

I would like to point out that just because a character is Evil... it DOES NOT mean he need to be cartoonishly evil... pulling a dick dastardly move by twirling the ends of his mustache, and cackling maniacaly after every evil plan is thought up.
I have recieved tells, and heard it said in OOC and party chat numerous times... that I am playing evil incorrectly, because I am not brutal, viscious, mean spirited with a rock of gibralter sized chip on my shoulder. My retort is.. why would I promote myself as -evil- in that manner while I am trying to conduct business in an area that is a predominantly good aligned area? It really makes no sense.

I have also been told I am not playing a banite correctly... because I do not walk into an area.. proclaim Bane above all other gods, and then slaughter any and everyone that stands to oppose me like others of the faith have done so in the past. Here are some excerpts from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (pge. 237, 238)

"Bane is thoroughly evil and malicious, and he revels in hatred and strife. A brooding power, he rarely shows himself directly; preferring to to plot from within the shadows and destroy others from afar. He hopes to to control all of Faerun, and dominate or subsume all other dieties; although for now he is willing to work with some of them to advance his cause"

"Serve no one but Bane. Fear him always and make others fear him even more than you do. The black hand always strikes down that stand against it in the -end-. Defy Bane and Die - or in death find loyalty to him, for he shall compell it. Submit to the word of Bane as uttered by his ranking clergy, since true power can only be gained through service to him. Spread the Dark Fear of Bane. It is the doom of those who do not follow him to let power slip through their hands. Those who cross the black hand meet their dooms earlier and more harshly than those who worship other dieties."

Bane does not show himself directly... but prefers to plot from the shadows... and destroy enemies from afar. To me... this does NOT mean I am required to act all broodish, and viscious with everyone I encounter. I am not required by faith to put my sword through everyone that looks at me cross eyed right on the spot. Banes portfolio is Hatred, tyrrany, fear and strife. It does not say anywhere in any book that I have ever read.. that my character is not permitted to love someone, or have affection for them. Also.. no where in the books I have read, does it say I am forbidden from giving assistance to people who might need it at a certain time just because I am evil and a banite. No other player knows my thoughts behind the characters motives for doing what he does.

It was also openly stated in another thread.. that a character associated with mine is not worthy of being a banite and should not have their fallen widget removed because that character acts all kinds of pleasant, giggles, and waves in a courteous manner to people. I would like someone to show me where it says that they are not permitted to do such things. As long as the tennets, rituals and devotion to the faith is observed, then everything else is an after thought I would think. But then again.. it is a mid level character who is easy pickings in the grander scheme of things right now, so it is much easier to just expect said character to out them self in order for the "good" guys to justify their hounding of the character, and not actually have to work for the truth.

Ao cast the gods down for various reasons... One of which being their lack of care for their followers needs. The gods, some of them anyway.. were taking all the gold and other items from the faithful for their own needs, and leaving said faithful, and their families to starve... even the dark gods. My point there is... the word FAMILIES. Yes.. evil can love, and have families. So the pre-disposed notion evil is not capable of love or kindness or anyhting associated with "good" ways is false. Get over it.

I am not going to call any out, or put anyone on blast by naming them directly, but it has been hinted to me that the DM's have a certain mindset over what a banite is. Some have one set of thinking, while others lean to another way, and that some DM's may be disappointed with the way certain RP aspects have gone concerning certain situations because it does not fit with their idea of what a banite is. I -AM NOT- saying this as fact, and I am certain the DM team will correct me in this by posting their owns thoughts, which I am all for personally. On the off chance it is correct, I would have to wonder why multiple DM's, all with different views of the situation, are deciding things. To me that just creates problems. You know the old saying "too many cooks spoil the broth".

In conclusion.. I am past fed up with being told OOCly that I am not playing my character correctly, or being told by others that they are being told that -they- are not playing their character correctly.
Before my time on this server, players played their characters as snide contemptuous dicks... and for some reason, that was engrained into the server mindset that -that- is the way the religion and characters -should- be played. Well it isnt in my mindset that I should -have- to play my character that way, and drop a hellball on Kampo's over an insult... or spit on a halfling in the middle of bendir, cut off their head and throw it at the gate. I will play my character the way I see fit, not yours.

Also... this is not just about my character and how he is... because I have heard it said about other characters that I know oocly are evil.. I am just posting this concerning mine. Others are welcome to post here as well concerning their own characters.

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Years of Love are forgotten in the hatred of a minute - Edgar Allen Poe

Ignore them and move on. Simple. Alternatively, report them if they're becoming bothersome.

Smart evil is why banites of old were so scary.

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

The real evil I love is the one that a) gets you in the end, and b) has a really fucked up-fun homelife. No drama, just plain wrong and okay with it. Think Homestar.

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

If I am evil, and I have a mustache, the god damnit, I will twirl it. Even if only in private, beyond prying eyes.

So Bane is the god of hatred and his faithful preach that none are to serve any other than Bane. So your character loves (Read: Not Hating) someone, you are actively going against his teachings and putting someone else before him. That doesn't make sense to me.

Edit: Reading back on this I may sound like I'm trolling, but I just can't think of a better way to word it.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Well, if you tyrranize the person you love, he'd give you a pass.

Again... cite referrences that come from Sourcebooks or cannon literature, that states it in black and white print to prove your words, and prove to me and everyone else that evil and banites are expressly forbidden by the faith as decreed by Bane him self from feeling the emotion of love for another mortal. If not, then it is nothing more than your personal interpretation and theory; and as I said earlier in my original post...

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Years of Love are forgotten in the hatred of a minute - Edgar Allen Poe

Bane is not special. He's just a god among others. To think his standards are categorically higher than others' and he polices the private lives of his followers is just naive.

But I suppose we all agree that players have no authority to rule on the world, its NPCs and PCs other than their own, so it's not as if there's a lot of unclarity here.

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I didn't tell you that you were playing your character wrong, so you can keep your panties on. I just asked for a point to be clarified, and I will quote you on this;

That really doesn't sound like the god of a loving family to me.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

There have been plenty of relationships and children birthed in the Church of Bane faction, so that point is moot.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

Claiming that you aren't being rude, then in your next post making a *blatantly* rude comment is not very credible. Everyone respects your opinion, no need to make remarks like that. You seem to have a very clear idea about what evil characters should and shouldn't be..I've heard you want to see someone who "plays them right". Maybe you should make a guideline so we can all follow in your example.


Oh by the way, not being rude or anything.

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Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!

Behave people.

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Signature by Maryn! <3 I am also seen as DM Snuffles.

Expecting the clergy of even an evil god to entirely give up their humanity to follow the dogma to the letter would be very two-dimensional, and the kind of attitude the LordSithaelon is clearly unhappy with. The battle between the person and the faith is often a rich source of RP for characters, and this is something that could be touched on ICly instead of being used to accuse someone of not roleplaying their character properly.

Just because you choose to worship Bane doesn't necessarily mean that you, as a character, are entirely amoral, are incapable of love and must be an evil robot who schemes and kills paladins all day. You might like to kick back in the evening with a good book and some wine, look after your cats or tend your garden of poisonous plants. And how are we to know that the worshipper in question puts their love above their own god? Wouldn't that be an incredibly interesting plot to follow - they must eventually choose their faith or their love?

Gods don't spend every minute of every day scrutinising their flock's every tiny movement, prepared to remove their powers if they do something a little bit iffy. Besides, the best villains are the ones who have a side you can identify with even if you may never see it.

You do not always put your beloved before your God. If this were true, religion would cease to exist! Many faiths including Catholicism, have preached that your devotion and piety to God comes before anything else. Even loved ones. Now this is not in a negative light as one may think, it just merely states that you have a duty to God and that lover shouldn't get in your way. For example, if I have a girlfriend that cannot stand my faith and is making me choose between my devotion to what I believe in or her. Then there is simply no contest. The same applies here, if his characters girlfriend got in the way of his worship and he chose her, then yes that would be heresy.

Many religions including real life ones teach peace and love as Bane teaches Hate. I've seen good Christians, good Muslims, and so on. I've seen a lot of people whose religious texts aim for peace and love. Does this mean they are always loving? does this mean they are always peaceful? Are you suggesting that people with peaceful religions that preach love cannot ever be angry? That they cannot dislike someone? That they do not ever think that war might be necessary?

Bane being a hate god means very little... especially since he's evil aligned. I'm sure he hates a lot of things! Doesn't mean he can't love things. From the get go, the man loves to hate. The man loves to see dutiful and loyal clergy and worshipers.

Many hate oriented people had lovers... Hitler had Eva Braun, Southern plantation owners had plenty of kids with their wives and they loved whipping slaves, and I'm sure there is more that I'm simply not thinking of. Oh! Harley Quinn loves Joker and they hate the Batman!

So yes, You can love and hate things. You can love to hate things, you can love hating things... this is not a difficult concept! lol

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I still see no cited referrences....

I asked a very simple request of you proving your words to me by citing actual sources as proof, and you could not do that. Instead, you throw insults about keeping panties on. The notions of tossing the insult speaks volumes on its own concerning your validity, and to me it shows you have no real point... just the need to throw your thoughts out there in some belief you should be considered credible and have your opinions valued by everyone; and as of this point, since you resorted to taunts instead of facts... your thoughts carry no more weight in this discussion as far as I am concerned.

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Years of Love are forgotten in the hatred of a minute - Edgar Allen Poe

Sheesh, probably couldn't even say peep without being blasted for it being an insult. Chill out, dude. Compared to other things I could've said, 'keep your panties on' is considered in good humour where I'm from. But I digress, I wasn't stating fact, I was asking for clarity on a specific instance. Since from what I recall, children and lovers in the previous church of Bane were put to death and/or excommunicated.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Tone down the aggression or this will be locked.

Any alignment can be a Banite. Any disposition. Who even needs to be a good and proper Banite? In fact, I find that all too often, people try to make their characters into the stereotypical, perfect image of a deity's prime follower. While this is often simpler, because you have a lot of lore and characteristics already at your fingertips, I really thoroughly enjoy the laymen of a faith who don't embody the virtues of it at all.

Or hell, even people devoting themselves to a God, but happen to be really bad at it. That's quality Rp, and creative character development.

However, if you want to receive divine justification from Bane, you'll need to follow his strict alignment needs, and likely be an active part of fear, tyranny, hatred, etc. But most followers don't in any way receive feedback from Bane. So as long as you're not a divine class, you can literally be -anything- you want.

I happen to love the story of a murderer, a veteran of a gruesome and grim war who gives prayer to Ilmater-- not because he expects him to look back and give favor, but because he hopes for it. He prays for it. He prays for salvation, but every waking day of his life, he uses what he's good at-- and ends up further and further away from where he desires to be.

The same could be inversely done with Bane. I daresay that there are some appealing virtues of Bane (Order that overcomes chaos, strength through fear, a sobering hatred of a sickened and sinful world, etc, etc).

TLDR: Anyone, of any alignment-- who has any kind of set of priorities-- Whether love or fear, can be a Banite. There may be varying degrees of how close you are to the exact Banite dogma-- but frankly, who gives a shit? Putting a limit on RP by assigning an expectation of perfect follower worship restricts a lot of great Rp.

There's a lore reason for this. Forgotten realms is overall a high divine campaign setting. Basically, the God's are ego maniacs and let their presence be known. It's not like Ravenloft or Eberron where clerics can cast spells regardless of meeting alignment prerequisites, same goes for alignments. Often times in the realms clerics tend to speak with or communicate with their deity. FR Deities really like to make their presence be known, they are ego maniacs lol. With the God's great presence in the realms, it's sort of hard to have heresies especially if you gain divine power. The God's of FR truly do not fuck around... hell, they have a special flesh wall for atheists where they are tormented for all eternity. That's fucked up.

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Ahh..

I have a hard time seeing a Lawful Good Banite.

Lawful Neutral, maybe.

That being said, I did try playing a Banite, whom had a great many traits that some might see as goodly, Polite, generally fair, perhaps a bit strict. However, she was also a damn devout Banite, and as a matter of fact I recall during one of her sermons got the Banites good and riled, because in the Sermon she showed great wisdom and great intelligence far beyond that of the a-typical brute some associate with Bane. One key point I remember from that sermon was at the end at it's apex, I'll post the quote in essence:

"If the combined sacrifices of Torm's followers could lay our lord low for a time, think of what WE can do by living in HIS NAME!"

She was evil, I will make no bones about it. But, she was also loyal to Zhentil Keep and saw Bane as the only way to keep it safe, kind of like a Soviet Commissar.

I realized I actually have the whole sermon here so for anyone who would like to read:

---

You could have a hard time seeing it all you want, but that doesn't really matter and doesn't stop it from having the potential to exist.

A Banite who was born into it, and struggles against the confines of a wicked society. Someone who's got a heart, but not a strong will-- who goes through the motions, lamenting the pains caused by his brethren, and quietly performs small acts of mercy.

Would Bane look kindly on this person? No. Not at all. But that doesn't matter whatsoever. A character can be a faithful of Bane independent of Bane's desire to bestow power or even attention to that follower.

All you would need to do is declare your faith to a deity to be a faithful of that deity. A character doesn't even have to understand all of what that entails. He could be completely ignorant to what Bane really is, but he is a faithful to Bane. Bane could ignore him outright-- but he is a faithful to Bane. He could not kill or not hold hatred-- and he would be considered an ineffectual servant of Bane. But nonetheless, he is still a faithful to Bane. The Church might deem his actions heretical, and may be perfectly within their divine authority to act and kill that person. But he still sought to follow Bane, which makes him again.. a faithful of Bane. Regardless of his success in emulating the Banite Dogma, as long as he tries he's a faithful of Bane.

As for the original post, I beg pardon Lordsith, but honestly , although I cannot recall much about the character in question they didn't jump out at me as a badly played Banite.

Players have a hard time when it comes to understanding faith alongside success. In understanding alignment and success, even.

Consider that when people think about a Lawful Good character, they envision a character who makes all the morally right decisions. Who has the wisdom to understand outcomes. But we have to remove ourselves from the notion that the Lawful Good answer is the most logical, morally correct answer. Ignorant and flawed characters exist in all 9 categories of the alignment spectrum.

Do you guys see where I'm coming from? A lot of the trouble that's coming these conceptions of alignment, and the right thing to do as a faithful of any deity spawns from the ill-placed mentality that a character should do the right thing because we as players understand it to be the correct route. We then leave no room for character error.

In fact, this hurts in so many other ways as well. When a character then loses, or makes a mistake-- the player immediately extrapolates it to his own failure. That's why you see, following PvP, assassinations, or even mistakes in plots-- that a player can get really, really upset. Its because he's morphed his own mentality into his character's mentality. The character becomes no longer independent of the player's understanding of the game, situation, lore, and more.

Let the character make mistakes, folks. Yes, we know what a stock-standard Banite looks like. Why can't there be a flawed, imperfect follower? How is that a bad thing? How is a character's deviation from the norm, or ignorance of the 'truth' an incorrect answer, when the entire object of D&D is to create a story. You can't win a story?

If someone told me that I played a bad Banite, I would tell them "Good."

It is a valid point, one doesn't have to be the exact same alignment to follow a deity, and ignorance of the deeper mysteries of the faith easily permit ignorance among lay worshipers. Clerics and holy champions have to be one step to the deities (In most cases) but that hardly means everyone does. There are countless people who pay homage to gods who know next to nothing about them other then they fear them and prayer makes them safer. The gods of fury are a good example where many common ignorant people are engaged in worship of some kind without knowing the deeper mysteries of a faith.

Bane being a Tyrant doesn't care so long as the ignorant masses of people do what he says and pray to him. His clergy and elite are different but they are also engaged in the deeper mysteries of the faith hence why they can cast spells and or have divine powers and are closer spiritually to their gods point of view.

Anyway like any religious argument dogma can be interpreted many ways. Some things in a dogma can not and are quite clear as do and do not do. However in the realms and countless other settings where dogma can be interpreted in many ways it often is and thus gives birth to accusations of Heresy and Sects with in a faith or in a friendly way philosophical variations among the faithful.

*nods* I acknowledge characters are meant to be flawed and imperfect, but at the same time the Dogma is what to strive for.

Flawed characters are fine, and if a character makes a mistake because of some legitimate reason, sure no problem. If the character is for whatever reason unfairly railroaded into that mistake, though.. different matter.

Just so its out there, I'm guilty of this too, sometimes. Most of my characters had a deep and profound understanding of the Gods, when really, about only half of them should. I would love seeing a character who said, "..Well of course I pray to Malar." "You know he's a vicious creature that hunts the living for fun and sport, and is a vile, wicked thing."

And that guy to go, "...Ehhhh, I don't know about that. I jus' know he's the God of the hunt."
~~~~

Or in context:
"Why do you follow Bane?"
"He's powerful, and mighty! I once saw his priest heal a fallen soldier."
"You know Bane's incredibly evil, and wicked, and hates life, right? That he employs devils to his aid?"
"Eh, I wouldn't know nothin' about that. Them's nightmares for the kids, nothing more."

And you can strive for the Dogma (If your character even knows what it is. Most common folk could probably not recite the dogmas of half the gods they worship. Not being able to read is a large factor), but you could also never, ever make progress.

The idea of striving for a Dogma also kind of places a strange emphasis that a character who is a faithful of a God should be doing every waking activity in support of the God. Or in striving for emulating the Dogma. When a typical layman will probably only think of the Gods once in the morning, and once at night.

Again, we as players understand that to be a good servant that follows the general aspects of a God, he or she should understand the god, strive toward its dogma, and deepen the relationship. But the character might have nooo idea that that's the case. Or might just be really friggin' bad at it. So while we might be able to say, "That character is a bad servant of _____." The correct response would be, "Yeah, and?"

The bottom line is, nobody should tell you how to play YOUR character. End of story.

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Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)

I agree that no one has any business telling you how to play your character. Other players simply don't have the information needed to make such a call (and should mind their own characters) and DM's won't tell you ooc but rather make you realise it ingame if you're really upsetting a deity (And that's for clerics, for laymen a cleric may ingame slap you on the wrist if they feel your char erred but that's all good rp)

People in the FR pay lip service/ homage to many gods whenever it suits them and make offerings to them when they feel a need for it and ignore the deity the rest of the time.
Eg, a man may make offerings to Malar before a hunt, then make an offering to Umberlee when making a sea voyage and make offerings to Chauntea when it's harvest time. He may well not (fully) know any of those dogma's if his patron deity is Tymora.

I think it's also worth pointing out that a laymen can easily have a very flawed perception of a deity especially if he has no access to a cleric of said deity to instruct him properly. Divine spellcasters ofcourse have a lot less room for error.

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Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

In general, I think people make too much of the direct deity-mortal link. If you transgress, it's not primarily your god that's going to be upset - it's your church. Your superiors might demand something of you that your god personally would not care to police, and if rebelling against your legitimate ecclesiastical superiors goes as far as schism, your god might punish you for something that he isn't really against. But then again, there are schismatic churches in the Realms (like the Oghmanyte Church and the Orthodox Church of Oghma) and outright heresies, so the gods don't seem to care that much. Church politics are a lot more interesting, anyway.

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Nobody in the church of bane was put to death or excommunicated for the sole reason of having kids or being in a relationship from my several years of experience within them.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

It is also incongruous with a LE deity, in my mind. Families produce childred, but devout families dedicated to Bane rear children who are also dedicated to Bane. And family is a lawful structure. And Bane has already proven himself very adapt at ensuring he has a lot of followers due to impressing them into a martial service that is basically a religious service, too. So...yeah, nothing seems wrong with the Banite family, other than the fact that they are bound to be dysfunctional to an awesome degree.

I have tried playing a banite myself, and stopped for this reason alone. People on the surface here seem to think that being evil means being completely idiotic. My character had high wisdom, so it only made sense to use that wisdom. Be polite, and you are more likely to get what you want from people. That is common sense. What your character wants from people determines whether your character is evil or not. You could be a polite serial killer: "Excuse me ma'am, I do apologize for this, but I need to end your life now. Goodnight." You can be a polite slave driver: "Do work harder young one. I will be forced to boil you in a pot of water to make an example out of your lack of effort if you don't." You can be a polite necromancer: "Mind the smell, lich coming through." You can be a polite Demon: "I usually ask for three mortal souls, but for you, good sir, I will only ask for only one."

This is so true it made me lol hard.

Carve it to the stone!

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Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)

This.

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*Points to the quote*

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NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/tool/characterbuildcalculator-nwn2-cbc2

Oh come on guys, we already have one 'drow are better than you smelly darthiir' thread already. Cut the puny humans some slack.

(Drow here, coming through!)

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

Bbut back in the old days all drow were eilistraeean or otherwise hanged around in Cordor giggling, huggling and poking and the surfaces baddies were the scary ones.

Now the tables have turned and we can not help but be amazed.

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

Drow were always evil, but since they stick/used to stick to their own society where it was the norm, they were rarely actual villains. So the comparison is of limited usefulness.

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I like to imagine that Banite parents are really overbearing, in the strict disciplinarian sort of way.

'Young lady, you will not go out of the house with your legs showing, put on your full combat armor like normal girls!'

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Player of:
Asya Goodmonsdottir - Knight of Lesser Gods.
-Winner of 2014's "Razored Tongue" Award, and Emcee's pick "Authoritarian of the year".
Jannah Vindle - Mistress of Coin.

Oh more than that. They probably beat them into submission whenever they miss behave. To express and assert their dominance, and control.

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