Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
555444333 wrote:
Sorry say what?
You know, how monks get that 19/16/13/10 kind of attack bonus progression (-3 instead of -5) with fists and kamas? Someone for some incomprehensible reason extended that to quarterstaves too starting at lvl 1, making them so incredibly good that everything else on a character with at least one monk level feels obsolete.
I claim it made weapon-using monks incredibly one-sided in one fell swoop and made a moderate weapon suddenly super-good. Kinda angry about it.
_________________ Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar Silwe, the elf
If I recall, Derk had a neat Wiz/WM build involving daggers. Must've been something like wiz23/WM7, or near to. Maybe just WM5. Feats are tight as, but you can get a good spellsword with enough epic spells to function.
I'm hoping for some advice on whether or not its worth it to alter my build to include epic summons vs just the ninth lvl summons. It would require bumping up my wisdom from 19 to 20 and lowering my final strength to 20. I would have to swap a great strength out and replace it with the epic summons feat. I think it will only lower my final ab by one. Still that can make a difference here it seems. Duration of the spell is also a concern as I will only be going to 24th in the clerical lvls as well as power of the summons. Any help is appreciated. Thanks
Monk3 is required before Flurry works properly, but even doing without it, it has made most other weapons look a bit sad panda. I know my staffer is broken to itty bitty pieces as far as PvMob balance goes.
30 Paladin viable? What kind of stat spread would it have to be meaningful in damage and survivability? I know there are a few gimmick builds but those seem unsavory.
I tried a Paladin / Weaponmaster but the damn thing is so feat starved, and needs a lot of extra stats on creation if you want Dev Crit.
Edit: Also may be interested in Knight Commander, considering the flavor and the stat sharing between classes.
30 Paladin viable? What kind of stat spread would it have to be meaningful in damage and survivability? I know there are a few gimmick builds but those seem unsavory.
I tried a Paladin / Weaponmaster but the damn thing is so feat starved, and needs a lot of extra stats on creation if you want Dev Crit.
Edit: Also may be interested in Knight Commander, considering the flavor and the stat sharing between classes.
Paladin/Wm/DC is arguably one of the stronger builds on the game in terms of great smite potential but will definitely require you to sacrifice some of the usual feats you'd like to take for survivability.
Still, smiting for 500+ with a brokenly high ab will leave us tarkuulians inclined to bigby you and run rather than risk instant death.
Edit: knight commander is fun but has no place in that build :p
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
What's that, then, something like 7 WM, enough DC for extra feats, and the rest Paladin? Focused entirely on CHA?
Sounds like it would be rough outside the 3/Day usage of the feat.
Wow, I actually built this exact build today. 12 Paladin, 7 WM, 10 DC on an Aasimar, gets 500+ on crit smites, Scimitar, gets 76 AC and 56 AB.
I encourage people to play it only if they're not going to abuse it to fuck in pvp, because if you plan on being a pvp machine, you'll be disappointed. It's hard to level up, and IMO Paladins should be the kings of social roleplay, helping the needy and sick, and not the "I will kill you! Because you sound vaguely, almost evil!" people.
So yeah, hard to level up, and I just encourage you not to play the paladin purely to be a pvp death machine. Play a paladin because you want to play a paladin, and then build a death machine out of the paladin after.
Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
Great smiters have always been a bit too gimmicky for me. I like one-trick-ponies, but that is too narrow of a trick even for me. I'd recommend a charisma based build, for which you do not really need WM levels. Just stick something like 16-20 str on it, the rest on charisma and go wild with divine might and divine shield. If you are going to solo a lot, pick a one-handed weapon and a shield, even though a two-handed sword is the classic paladin weapon.
DnD's way of making shields important for everyone has always pissed me off, but you can't really help it. In real life better armour made shields obsolete in melee combat pretty early in medieval times, since when your armour is strong enough to take blows, having a shield just gets in the way of fighting. Making characters who wear full plate and use a shield instead of a two-hander always pisses me off, but I end up giving up the two-hander and picking up a shield every time because that AC is just so damn important. Lily is built very similar to a charisma paladin, and was originally supposed to use a halberd, but it was just pitifully bad compared to hammer and shield.
_________________ Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar Silwe, the elf
I would have liked to have seen the ability to wield bastard swords in two hands, or with a shield. Optional if you would, giving you higher ab/damage if you're forgoing the shield.
_________________ Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani Victor Wilkinson
Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
jimbono1 wrote:
I would have liked to have seen the ability to wield bastard swords in two hands, or with a shield. Optional if you would, giving you higher ab/damage if you're forgoing the shield.
Yeah. I would love to see that. When using 2h it would give the 1,5x str bonus to damage and 1x when 1h.
_________________ Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar Silwe, the elf
And a 26 Str Paladin v a 18 str Paladin is really only 4 damage per hit with a 1 hander and 6 with a 2hander.
_________________
The Peacock wrote:
[GreatPigeon] is better than me.
Uncle-Opustus wrote:
Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
How would one benefit of having 20 levels of palemaster? is it possibe to be able to be formidable opponent (PvE, mostly) with that or is it going to get truly amiss with the base class of 10?
How many times can palemaster use his touches, anyway?
Benefits beign solo and benefits of being part of a party?
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And a 26 Str Paladin v a 18 str Paladin is really only 4 damage per hit with a 1 hander and 6 with a 2hander.
So it's worth forgoing that 4-6 bonus damage and all the feats necessary for WM / Over. Crit / Dev Crit ... for the Divine Might-Shield Damage/AC-On-Demand and all the saves you get from CHA?
Would Knight Commander then synergize well with a high CHA Non-smite pally?
I was thinking something like Paladin / KC / Monk then, 2hander
Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
Mercedes wrote:
GreatPigeon wrote:
Divine Might.
And a 26 Str Paladin v a 18 str Paladin is really only 4 damage per hit with a 1 hander and 6 with a 2hander.
So it's worth forgoing that 4-6 bonus damage and all the feats necessary for WM / Over. Crit / Dev Crit ... for the Divine Might-Shield Damage/AC-On-Demand and all the saves you get from CHA?
Would Knight Commander then synergize well with a high CHA Non-smite pally?
I was thinking something like Paladin / KC / Monk then, 2hander
Yes and yes, though with the bulk of your damage coming from charisma, 2hander isn't as good as it would be on a str based build. Str and Cha paladins are quite different animals though. Different builds for different roles.
_________________ Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar Silwe, the elf
I suppose a longsword would be just as nifty, though I'm not fond of many of the shields on the module-- especially tower shields. I may then just settle for a Large Shield for the aesthetic and burn that one AC.
Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
Agreed, the shield models are horrible.
You could probably pull a 2hander off too. Its just 8 points of AC less in exchange for some damage, a greatly increased cool factor and one more mythal slot. It's not the most favourable tradeoff ever, but a paladin should survive even with a bit less AC.
Minmaxing for maximum cool factor is acceptable.
_________________ Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar Silwe, the elf
How would one benefit of having 20 levels of palemaster? is it possibe to be able to be formidable opponent (PvE, mostly) with that or is it going to get truly amiss with the base class of 10?
How many times can palemaster use his touches, anyway?
Benefits beign solo and benefits of being part of a party?
Umm, build-wise it has a lot of AC and the really nice PM summon (Winterwight). Starting with PM 15+ you can choose epic spells, so that's obviously a plus: Add more riduncolous AC and the two spells for epic hurt, I suppose.
With really good AC and immunities, you could try to add proper saves on the gear and maybe untouchable discipline (if your AC isn't already), so that you can last some time in PvP. Then spam Wail of the Banshee (does it really work in armor?!) and Horrid Wilting, as those are your only high-level spells with CL 30. Finish off with some nicely timed Epic Spells and if you run out of spells, touch them 3 times and hope they finally die. (Just a theory, but what else would you do as a palemaster?) That would probably be easier to pull of with a dump class near the end, but anyway ...
Touches are 3 times / day, afaik. Same as in vanilla NWN.
How would one benefit of having 20 levels of palemaster? is it possibe to be able to be formidable opponent (PvE, mostly) with that or is it going to get truly amiss with the base class of 10?
How many times can palemaster use his touches, anyway?
Benefits beign solo and benefits of being part of a party?
Umm, build-wise it has a lot of AC and the really nice PM summon (Winterwight). Starting with PM 15+ you can choose epic spells, so that's obviously a plus: Add more riduncolous AC and the two spells for epic hurt, I suppose.
With really good AC and immunities, you could try to add proper saves on the gear and maybe untouchable discipline (if your AC isn't already), so that you can last some time in PvP. Then spam Wail of the Banshee (does it really work in armor?!) and Horrid Wilting, as those are your only high-level spells with CL 30. Finish off with some nicely timed Epic Spells and if you run out of spells, touch them 3 times and hope they finally die. (Just a theory, but what else would you do as a palemaster?) That would probably be easier to pull of with a dump class near the end, but anyway ...
Touches are 3 times / day, afaik. Same as in vanilla NWN.
Solo: You don't die. Party: You don't die.
Regards Ts
Doesn' t max PM levels inhibitio you into maximum of spell levels of 5, making it impossible to obtain wail of banshee? What do you mean of 'untouchable discipline'?
_________________ My favourite sniper loadout: Huntsman, jarate, bushwacka. Team Fortress 2 is FREE TO PLAY!
Le Wikia: Upon reaching pale master levels 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in his highest caster class (bard, sorcerer or wizard). He does not learn any new spells through this ability, but for wizards it can allow higher-level spells to be learned through other means (i.e. from scrolls or later leveling as a wizard).
Amia has tweaked this further so that Necromancy spells stack for CL, duration and non-Monk SR.
Wouldn't that still only give them spells as a level 15 wizard, with the 5 level increases? I.E., 8th level, tops? I thought it only gave more daily, not access to higher levels, but it seems I was wrong there.
By untouchable disciple, I assume they meant 'high enough to be useful on the front line', through item bonuses since you would have a LOT of free mythal slots.
I Aldo assume that pm Levels don't contribute to the power of familiars?
Yep, they only give spell spells /day, but no other wizard progression at all (except for the mentioned amia feature that PMs advance CL in the necromancy just like regular wizards).
You also don't get epic spells until PM 15. That's something I stumbled over. I thought that the PM 13 bonus feat allows me to take an epic spell, but it doesn't ...
What kind of starting stats should i go for? Was ofc thinking of maximizing int, then dex for Better ac, con för hp... 18, 14, 14 for respective stats?
How about feats? Armor prof? Metamagics?
_________________ My favourite sniper loadout: Huntsman, jarate, bushwacka. Team Fortress 2 is FREE TO PLAY!
What kind of starting stats should i go for? Was ofc thinking of maximizing int, then dex for Better ac, con för hp... 18, 14, 14 for respective stats?
How about feats? Armor prof? Metamagics?
What follows is mostly cheese ...
If you intend to cast the DCs on your PM abilities, you should definitely maximize INT. You can start out with one of the +2 INT races (Halruan, Sun Elf, Fire Genasi, ...).
Starting INT 20 goes to INT 27 by itself, then probably Great INT I. With INT 28 +12 fully buffed, you have a fortitude DC of 45 = 10 + 20 (PM) + 15 (INT) on your instant death touch ... Not bad at all. But it will be difficult to hit other people, as you need a successful touch attack. With your really low AB, that probably will never happen.
Your instant death spell Wail, if you take Epic Focus Necromancy, has a DC of 40 = 10 + 9 (spell level) + 15 (INT) + 6 (ESF). Still nice, but not nearly as deadly, as most people that care about saves for PvP expect that level. On the other hand, you can actually hit people with this and if you just empty your spell book of instant-death spells, you're dangerous enough.
Other stats: CON never hurts. DEX depends on whether you want to cast in a chain shirt (with 0% spell failure, which is somewhere in the module) or a robe. The lighter the armor, the more useful DEX is. Generally, the chain shirt is a decent choice, but a robe would also do and probably comes with better stats on it.
STR < 10 is possible, since you don't intend to fight, but it makes live a bit annoying if you cannot carry even the most basic stuff. I'd start with STR 10 or 11 if you have a point to spare. WIS and CHA are the traditional dump stats ... You don't have to dump them, though.
I'd go for the following class split: Wiz 9 / PM 20 / Bard 1 or Wiz 10 / PM 19 / Bard 1. The former takes Bard 1 on Level 20 for a skill dump, the latter on level 30. The latter is probably even more annoying to level, but you get the best out of your skill dump, and one more level 9 spell.
Feats: You certainly want Epic Spell Focus Necromancy. Other than that, you don't really make good use of the basic Wizard Feats, as your spells suck and Necromancy isn't good for buffing ... So Extend and Maximize work, but only until someone dispells you with a scroll of Dispel worth 150 gold coins.
Instead, you can take more defensive feats: Luck of Heroes, Toughness, Great Fortitude, Skill Focus Discipline, ...
In epic probably Great INT, ESF Necromancy, Epic Mage Armor, Greater Ruin, Hellball, Armorskin, Epic Skill Focus: Discipline. If you want to, you could trade 2 for more Great INT II + III for another +1 to your DCs and some spell slots.
Mind you: Check if these epic feats can actually be taken. Sometimes, things don't work out with requirements and when you can take the feats, despite the numbers being correct ...
Skills: With high INT, you have about about 8 skills at max level. Typical choices would be:
Spellcraft (33) Listen (33) or Spot (23 or 33, often better than Listen, but just on Bard) Discipline (23 or 33, just Bard) UMD (23 or 26, either is good enough) Tumble (20 or 30, just Bard) some more ...
Your AC will be almost ridiculous (though you could have more if you went with pure DEX instead of extra INT ...) and you should generally survive quite long.
The above assumes the Chain Shirt (which you can wear with UMD), but you could also try to gain Automatic Still Spell III. It's usually not worth the 3 epic feats, though.
Playwise ... I guess mostly you watch things be killed by your summon and occassionally throw in a necromancy spell. (Mind you, you're good spells won't be available until epic levels due to the slow PM progression.)
If you want to piss people off even further, you play as a True Neutral character. That way, a lot of things don't work against you ...
Mind you, I don't find levelling my PM very enjoyable because he mostly feels useless! There's enough roleplay to be had in Tarkuul, though, if you're into that kind of stuff ...
Regards Ts
PS: Others are much more qualified to help you with this. I might have missed some vital ideas and generally don't know much about the endgame.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Cleric 24/ Monk 6 Cleric 23/ Monk 6 / Rogue 1
Focused on melee and staff.
Str + Wisdom (for AB and damage)
or
Wisdom + Char (for divine feats)
Possible?
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Possible, But you best take a deity with War domain for Aura of Vitality. Otherwise you will have problems with gear-setting, despite being a cleric. You need STR, DEX, WIS, CHA and CON + some saves.
Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
Guardian wrote:
Cleric 24/ Monk 6 Cleric 23/ Monk 6 / Rogue 1
Focused on melee and staff.
Str + Wisdom (for AB and damage)
or
Wisdom + Char (for divine feats)
Possible?
Monk/Cleric is the classic build that has always been a top contender for the most powerful build there is. I don't really think you need a rogue level. I used to hate monk/Clerics with a fiery passion in my arena server days.
I''d go with str+wisdom with quarterstaff or wisdom + cha for ranged weapons if I were you.
_________________ Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar Silwe, the elf
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Silvarus wrote:
I''d go with str+wisdom with quarterstaff
I was thinking divine shield to compensate the lack of shield, but I can hardly think how to effectively distribute the attribute points.
By the way, how many attacks without flurry of blows will I have? I always had issues calculate the number of attacks :/
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
Guardian wrote:
Silvarus wrote:
I''d go with str+wisdom with quarterstaff
I was thinking divine shield to compensate the lack of shield, but I can hardly think how to effectively distribute the attribute points.
By the way, how many attacks without flurry of blows will I have? I always had issues calculate the number of attacks :/
Yeah with a monk/cleric you will be really short on ability points since you probably want some dexterity too to get some unarmoured AC. Trying to get 18 charisma in addition to fair str, dex and wis MIGHT be possible with some +2 ECL class that has bonuses to relevant stats, maybe.
That will put you at 3 attacks since both cleric and monk are 3/4 classes, with 4th from flurry and 5th from haste. I'd usually try to get 4 levels of a full bab class in there to get one more attack, but with a staff monk that is not as important.
_________________ Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar Silwe, the elf
If you pass up GD immunity for +1 AC, you need to have your head checked ;p
+1 AC won't do a lick of good when all of your buffs are suddenly gone
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
GD makes more sense indeed.
Final thought - since staff is not a subject to weapon finesse, what about 8 dex with full plate and +4 dex (and therefore +2 ac) from spell / potion?
Which means str and wisdom with some spare charisma / constitution build?
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
Guardian wrote:
Final thought - since staff is not a subject to weapon finesse, what about 8 dex with full plate and +4 dex (and therefore +2 ac) from spell / potion?
Which means str and wisdom with some spare charisma / constitution build?
In that case I'd take less monk levels and add fighter. Get weapon specializations, that 4th attack and more feats. In this kind of build you would just be taking monk for flurry, tumble dump and quarterstaff, and have no reason to take more than 3 levels of it.
Cleric23/monk3/fighter4 might work awesomely as a charisma build, but that is a different animal from the classic monk/cleric already.
_________________ Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar Silwe, the elf
Monks lose ubab and flurry ability while wearing le armor.
_________________
The Peacock wrote:
[GreatPigeon] is better than me.
Uncle-Opustus wrote:
Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
So basically taking the monk levels with the mentioned build is pointless, is that right?
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Ruces and to lesser extent my str based rogue monks qstaff are amazing. If you want monk pwnage with staff consoder them?
_________________
The Peacock wrote:
[GreatPigeon] is better than me.
Uncle-Opustus wrote:
Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
Hi! I uh... need the 'grinding people' to help me .. i wanna make a 'trapper' for UD, I was thinking 24R/1fighter/5 MasterScout ... sound any good?
I was thinking Kobold.
the only two REQUIRED feats are Skill Focus: Listen & Skill Focus: Spot, so i might add stuff that compliment my trapper ideas stuff like skill focus: set trap/disable device ... but other then that im kind of tossing stuff out randomly so i need help D;
Last edited by kalcibone on Wed, Apr 23 2014, 22:18 PM, edited 3 times in total.
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