AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Muling

Quote:

Recently we have had a disturbing rise in people muling items aka giving items to their alts either through a middle-man, a shop or dropping them and relogging and picking them up on the alt.

Please do not do this. The DM team has plenty of tools that can reveal without a doubt whether items are muled or not. You will be caught sooner or later and all characters involved, including any middle-men, will be stripped.
Mind, we don't need to see the transfer on the client to catch you. If we check the item a month after you transfer it we can still easily determine without a doubt whether it has been muled or not so muling when no DM is online is equally futile. You will still be caught.

Included in muling are all transfers where an item goes from one of your characters to another no matter the route. Mythalling an item for an alt is also muling. Do not do this. Find another players character to myhtal gear for you if you can't do it on this pc.

We do not enjoy stripping characters. Please do not force our hand by muling.

Thank you.

The DM team.

The rule can be read here : viewtopic.php?f=20&t=55956&p=918580#p918580 or in your journal.

But how else am I gonna get all the epic items from Robert to my drowess when I kill him off?

Bury him deep enough.

(And thats a joke as is Ponies post. Muling is bad, bad, bad!)

Haha!

What if someone sells something to a character, some sort of epic loot, then say a week or two or even a month or two later, one of the other characters of the same person who sold it, buys said epic loot from a different character, but because of other interactions players have had, it turns out to be the same one that the original character had? Would that count as muling?

Technically, yes.

You get an item one of your alts once owned.

If you buy a big epic item you once sold to someone then it may be worthwhile to ask a DM to check or to make a screenshot of the transaction where you pay for it to cover yourself.

Hudson wrote:

Technically, yes.

You get an item one of your alts once owned.

If you buy a big epic item you once sold to someone then it may be worthwhile to ask a DM to check or to make a screenshot of the transaction where you pay for it to cover yourself.

I remember this is why Darthion Illys got stripped. He had so many epic items that he used to lend them out to people; and they in turn did the same for him when he helped them level on various toons.

Slippery slope..

Loaning out epic items for levelling is a very slippery slope indeed especially when those you loan them to loan them out further. I think most characters wouldn't loan out their very best items for that anyway.

'Hmm, where is Alfred? He went to the beastmen caves a week ago with my warforced Halberd and I haven't seen him since'

I'd advice buying a character your character likes some nice items slightly less powerfull items from a shop or travelling pc merchant instead (observing the rules for twinking ofcourse.)

Oh, man. You have no idea how many times I've almost accidentally muled something. Zelly's interactions with literally EVERYTHING have left me so paranoid about this.

"Hey, DM, this guy just bought this item for Kyra. Can you check it?"
"Zelly had it six years ago when her name was still just Zelly."
"KILL IT WITH FIRE."

But we work within reason, too. All we really need to see is that it wasn't intentional. If you go through the extra steps with us if you're worried, and we find an item that you are buying legitimately that happened to touch your character four years ago, there's room for leniency-- but its much easier to explain this if you preemptively get a DM involved, than if a DM uses his toolbelt and catches an item instead.

Don't be afraid to work with us!

This has always made me nervous. I totally agree with the rule mind you. So why am I nervous? A DM can tell who in the past possessed an item but a player cannot. My pcs buy and sell things all the time. Old ones New ones etc. Epic items are all the same. You cannot tell one sureforged item from another as a player. Merchant pcs have it the worst because items flow in and out of their possession like water. If I had a merchant PC and an alt PC I'd never buy any item on the open market for the alt. That applies even if I've retired the merchant PC. It would be shop bought , mythalled, or DC items only.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Hudson wrote:

Technically, yes.

You get an item one of your alts once owned.

If you buy a big epic item you once sold to someone then it may be worthwhile to ask a DM to check or to make a screenshot of the transaction where you pay for it to cover yourself.

I remember this is why Darthion Illys got stripped. He had so many epic items that he used to lend them out to people; and they in turn did the same for him when he helped them level on various toons.

Slippery slope..

As the DM who stripped Darthion, I need to point out that this was not the reason for the strip at the time. I do not recall anything leveled at him that was on this level of muling abuse. The issue revolved around what was an incident of twinking a lower level PC. I don't like to clutter a sticky, but I feel Svensk's misinformation has forced me to say something in order to prevent a former player from being accused of something the DM Team at the time didn't accuse him of. To the best of my recollection, anyway, and I was directly involved.

maglorine wrote:

This has always made me nervous. I totally agree with the rule mind you. So why am I nervous? A DM can tell who in the past possessed an item but a player cannot. My pcs buy and sell things all the time. Old ones New ones etc. Epic items are all the same. You cannot tell one sureforged item from another as a player. Merchant pcs have it the worst because items flow in and out of their possession like water. If I had a merchant PC and an alt PC I'd never buy any item on the open market for the alt. That applies even if I've retired the merchant PC. It would be shop bought , mythalled, or DC items only.

If in doubt make a screeny of the transaction in which you pay for the item.

I'm always worried that because I've had many high level characters in the past who have traded in Epic items, one day an item will eventually be traded to me without me being aware. Would it be possible to give players a widget which can check when used on an item if the item has ever been touched by the player who uses the widget (tied into CD keys or IP or whatever works)? That way we'd be able to check for ourselves before any transactions take place.

I'm more worried about possible instances of twinking really. I play a lot of very generous characters who in turn interact with very generous characters of other players. Is there still some sort of guideline or rule of thumb on what crosses the line?

It's in the rules Silvarus.

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Twinking constitutes as follows: giving another player items or gold that they did not deserve. Gifts are allowable so long as the person will be able to use them within 2 levels. For example, giving a level 10 a sword or armor he will need to be level 12 to use is acceptable (or a roughly equivalent value in gold). Giving said level 10 an epic drop off Windreaper, or from the epic store for free or a miniscule price, or something he'd need to be 21 to use, is not. It is also best to limit the number of such gifts to maybe one per RL month. Upon reaching level 25, the caps go away. Remember though, if you are at all concerned about weather some gift or aid rendered to a friend might get you in trouble, ASK A DM. If you're selling a high level item, and happen to run across a rich lowbie who wants to buy it, screenshot the transaction in order to protect yourself.

When in doubt ask a DM Gobble (Or screen the transaction). I don't think it's feasable to hand each player a widget at least not the ones the DM's use.

People are still muling? I thought Amia was above this.

Last case of muling I remember was met with a delevel of all character, strip of all items from all characters and a 3 months ban. That's all mulers need to know.

That's not the current punishment which is a full item strip on all toons involved. Atleast, that's the punishment for the first offense.

Quote:

Both twinking and muling is prohibited on Amia. Players caugh either muling or twinking will face punishments: Complete strip of all the offending characters on the first offence, and an additional two-week ban on the second, increasing in length if more violations occur.

Hey, Hudon, there's a very relevant to this topic point of discussion over on the Design forum, in the thread I just bumped there. I'll isolate it for you there...

Thanks for the heads up Yossarin! I'll go and read it.

I ussually don't skim that forum much because I know very little of designing and focus a bit on requests instead.

Jes wrote:

"Hey, DM, this guy just bought this item for Kyra. Can you check it?"
"Zelly had it six years ago when her name was still just Zelly."
"KILL IT WITH FIRE."

I knew it was Zelly in disguise!

#CopperLives #DustyDeep

Aww! Zelly has her own hashtag for her fans in denial!

Is it possible to script a message that pops up informing the player if one of their items was belonging to another character on their account?

It's complicated, but possible. I actually have had it mostly planned out for nearly two years now, just haven't gotten around to starting the actual coding for it. Because honestly, those who mule on purpose, will still do it, and those who do it by accident well we can tell the difference anyway. So while it would be a nice "peace of mind" thing for people, it's not quite a priority.

I am never going to get my burro...

Mr. Hackums wrote:

But we work within reason, too. All we really need to see is that it wasn't intentional. If you go through the extra steps with us if you're worried, and we find an item that you are buying legitimately that happened to touch your character four years ago, there's room for leniency-- but its much easier to explain this if you preemptively get a DM involved, than if a DM uses his toolbelt and catches an item instead.

Don't be afraid to work with us!

This is a badly-designed rule.

Any rule that preoccupies good players with worry that they might get stripped for simply operating in their normal course of business is bad. Whether your intent or not this induces a certain fear factor to playing that I feel is harmful to a player's trust of the server. I don't particularly find it comforting that "the DMs can be flexible/lenient"- that just means you're stuck waiting on the edge of your seat while someone else decides whether you're getting coal in your proverbial stocking or not.

It allows arbitrary decisionmaking on the part of DMs, forces OOC considerations into completely innocent streams of commerce, and though I am loathe to make a statement without evidence at hand I feel it's a fair bet it's screwed more than one genuinely innocent player.

I don't know how to make this one better. Sorry. Usually I try to offer a suggestion but on this one I've got no clue. Besides, you have so much scripting to detect this crap that my advice would likely be useless.

I have a PC that found a Trueforged Scimitar that he sold. One year later another PC of mine is looking to buy a Trueforged Scimitar through a notice, auction, or in-game transaction. Do I as a player need to inform the DMs of this potential transaction?

You can ask a DM to vet the scimitar or make a screeny of you paying a 'normal' price for it.

I disagree Eurgigia, better that we are transparant on the issue and warn players and give them two options to avoid making a mistake then that we slap them down afterwards when they unwittingly break the rule.

And if you have no evidance of anything being stripped without cause I think we have been implenting this rule quite fairly. Like Hackums said, it's not hard to detect if muling was intentional or not.

I personally think it should be codified into the rules that if it's been a month or two, it's not considered muling. What're the odds that someone's going to wait months to transfer something between characters, when they can almost assuredly get it on that character within that timeframe, AND that the person they're using as a middle-man will still be available and willing to do the trade-off by the time 2 months rolls around?

I agree that the more arbitrary decisions (read: ability to power monger or allow a bad disposition to rule the server) from DM's is bad, and the above is a fairly simple rule edit, so why not discuss putting something like that in place? It can even be six months; but I mean, reading someone say "an item that you once owned that you own again, on a different char, five years later, is muling" is kind of stupid. Statute of limitations is a thing IRL in many countries for a reason.

DMs might not spot a muled item for months, possibly even years. So unless they start doing monthly PC inventory inspections... The current 'system' works, if barely.

To my knowledge, Hudson, even paying a "normal" price for something you once owned on an alt does not suddenly make it okay. That is a can of worms I don't think anyone wants to open.

Unless there are dates attached to each name in the item transfer, how is a DM supposed to know that the player is telling the truth about it having been an item their alt traded six years ago? I've had DMs destroy epic loot that I picked up after paying a ton for it, only to find that it was owned by an alt years ago and I agreed to immediately have it taken away despite the monetary loss because I absolutely did not want to be stripped for such an accident. I never even tried to get the gold I spent on those items back, because it had already been traded for IC and loss of gold was better than an awkward Tell to another player trying to explain the situation.

I have seen leniency, in regard to one of my characters coming across one of the bajillion things Zelly had traded with. But it always ended with the item being taken away/destroyed and the gold/items I traded remaining in the hands of the one who traded it to me (where I agree it belonged). The point I make here is that rules defining leniency (or lack thereof) need to be spelled out very clearly. Or people like me will panic and narrowly miss a heart attack in our effort to be consistently good, rule-abiding players.

That's true Jes but let me give you an exemple.

Epic item: Zelly -> Kyra = you're bust
Epic item: Zelly -> Bert -> Heather -> Squirrel -> Amon -> Harry -> Kyra = A screeny of you buying it would absolve you of any doubt as you couldn't know that one was Zellies.

I think you can tell the differance between the two exemples and see why a screeny would be good.

I'll be the "bad guy" this time.

This isn't a discussion thread, it's a reminder for people not to break the rules.

If you're concerned that an item you're purchasing may have passed hands and come right back to you, politely ask a DM to vet it for you. It takes us two seconds (literally) and we have no issues at all doing it for people because it also helps us in the long run.

Muling - Don't do it.

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