I do recall several threads upon this matter, but I do feel that another one of the same could not bring any harm. Quite the contrary. What concerns me is the apparent usage of modern day words that are slang even for our 21st century standards. Personally I believe that it should be refrained from as much as possible, while role-playing. On many occasions have I encountered the following phrases:
He's screwed. It's cool. Yo. She's hot. It's a major clusterfuck. Dafuq?
I merely believe that..
He is in a big trouble. It is quite alright. Greetings. She is rather appealing. The situation is truly dire. I'm not even going to address 'dafuq'.
..is far more appropriate for keeping up the immersion of a medieval/fantasy game. Not to mention that even the "more appropriate" expression above can be taken onto the next level and be brought to the closer manner of speaking in the medieval/fantasy times. So I urge all those who would use this kind of modern slang IC, to pause for a moment and think of a better way to express their character. Yes, my character could and is taking such phrases quite literally (- He's cool. - He should have dressed up warmer in that case.), but I believe it would be way better if everyone kept up the standards of the RP, at least a little bit higher.
Discuss. Feel free to bring out a new creative ways to replace the slang expressions that are most commonly represented in RP of Amia.
I can't force people to not use such words: Because Remember that "Common" is a crude trade language which varies was much as the English language actually does: There's regional ways of pronouncing, Saying and writing words and sentences just as it is in the real world.
The difference are like American vs Brittish. Brittish vs Cockney. Cockney vs Jamaican. Jamaican vs South African English. South African English vs European English European English vs Chinese English. Chinese English vs Indian English Indian English vs Mexican English Mexican English vs Canadian English
And ALL the MYRIADS of regional speech; Pub slang, corporate English and what not.
I actually speak the most authentically on the server when Jys breaks out the cant, since thats real 1820's London street slang with a bobby dazzler o fictional additions, an up goes the fhorge!
_________________
Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?
I still haven't unbaked my noodle from finding out 'hello' is several decades younger than 'OK'...
OK makes me cringe.
u shld rly b less senstive.
_________________ ~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear. ~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt. ~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.
More seriously, I both agree and disagree with you, Dead. I have always consistently been of the mind that contemporary language is prudent if the contemporary language of the setting is meant to evoke the same characterization as contemporary language in our own reality. To make up neologisms and fantastical phraseology is a creative exercise, sure, but just like a walk through the ocean of most souls would scarcely get your feet wet, so too would the creative exercise suffer become a shallow and unapproachable hodge podge of meaningless syllables to all but the wittiest. Or, worse, become a coded language whose role evolves to ostracism those who aren't really bothered as much as you.
All respect meant here, Dead, we can disagree and I still need your gravitas here. But I think that if those phrases truly buck your immersion you are fighting a losing battle and might have more fun if you change your view first before struggling to change others, especially if they are not as sensitive.
On that note, consider this: my first thought was that you may be shooting yourself in the foot there. The less eloquent and more modern these characters speak, the more your own character's diction becomes distinct, formal, even archaic, which may be exactly what you are going for. If they start talking even a little more formal as you suggested, that gulf that distinguishes you from them in language disappears.
Joined: 11 Nov 2008 Location: In the land of liquid sunshine and coffee
I'll agree and disagree as well.
Although I don't find it nearly as immersion breaking since I tend to swim in the shallow end of the RP pool, I do get annoyed as most modern parlance is inappropriate to the setting, especially when vulgar terminology comes into play. I play to have fun and try not to make some things obstacles for having fun, having a short attention span helps.
On the other hand, I find myself conforming to how the other players I interact with express themselves. So, as players become more eloquent around me, I follow along. Leading by example works, even if it doesn't seem so at the time.
_________________ Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.
I do see where you are coming from Yoss (and I did learn quite a few new words by reading your post if I may add). Concerning shooting myself in the foot, I am doing my best to expand my dictionary, especially since English ain't my native. In a way, if the standard of the server was my current standard, I would expect of myself to go even further in order to deliver my bookworm, stick-up-his-ass character (which I am trying nonetheless).
Concerning the proper capitalization and punctuation.. yeah, it's absolutely horrible. I can't stand it. I assume lack of care when I see someone doing it. And lack of care is pretty bad.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Dead wrote:
Concerning the proper capitalization and punctuation.. yeah, it's absolutely horrible. I can't stand it.
Same.
Dead wrote:
She is rather appealing.
Oh, c'mon mate, can you imagine Eddie saying this? I can't
Sure, if someone come to me with "Yo, sup" it's kinda lame. Dafuq I am yet to see, but that's even worse. But saying "She's HOT!" is nothing I would loose my sleep over.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
My grammarly foes are players who never capitalise and who typo repeatedly.
I understand there are usually extenuating circumstances however, so I try not to mention it.
Surprisingly doesn't complain at me ~_^ because I'm horrible about both. Kudos for restraint! (yes I had to go back and add capital to this post)
On the over all matter though; People simply type the way they think and I think it would be accurate to say most people think in terms of modern speech. To some it's simple, to other forcing to rethink every word to keep another's "immersion" in medieval/fantasy speech would kill their fun. And just to point out there is at least one instance where your reply to an NPC is scripted to say m'kay. Close enough to okay for me not to see a huge difference.
_________________ "I don't know how you persist in being so stubborn-" "It's a superpower. I was bitten by a radioactive mule."
The one thing that really gets to me is use of text message speak shortenings like you=u and so on.
This enough of a game killer for me to entirely avoid those people. Even if it's in party chat... Most of the time I see it in new players, which might have the ignorance excuse, but I can't think of a polite enough way to correct them, so I just avoid.
As the majority of the way we communicate here is via text, and mimicking accents and poor speech patterns is one way to help establish a character, I generally just assume any affectation of speech is purposeful, and take it as that. There is a certain level of modern slang that becomes immersion breaking, but for the most part as long as are making some effort to stay within realms terminology I try to roll with it. I don't think some people think about what they are typing that deeply however.
Capitalization.... I'm terrible about that. I try, but if the tempo requires any speed, I just give up. I hope it doesn't bother too many people (and I differentiate capitalization from punctuation, punctuation being more important). For me at least part of the reason is that when I broke my hand, it threw off the timing of my hand-eye coordination enough that I miss capitalizing the first letter (or anything that requires the shift key... you'll see me accidentally use '8' instead of '*' quite often too). And trust me when I say iT's fAr mOre aNnoying aNd jArring wHen sOmeone cApitalizes tHe sEcond lEtter.
i think the same thing applies to people who speak ooc all the time its really annoying and just painful to read when its in the middle of roleplaying for example think of how horrible it is to read this it sucks i hate it and ooc in game feels the same when i see it
i think the same thing applies to people who speak ooc all the time its really annoying and just painful to read when its in the middle of roleplaying for example think of how horrible it is to read this it sucks i hate it and ooc in game feels the same when i see it
Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Location: [st]Ultrinnan[/st] [st]Edonil[/st] Nec'perya
i just now learned that the first recorded use of 'fuck' was in the 1400's (but thought to be much earlier) the first recorded use of 'screwed' to be ironic was in the 1940's (earlier uses meant finely tuned, something good) bugger is from the 1600's
and pretty much every common swear word we have has been in use since the 1800's
_________________ Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare' Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words
Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Location: [st]Ultrinnan[/st] [st]Edonil[/st] Nec'perya
also commenting on OP
according to the Online Entymology Dictionary...
Quote:
Old English hat "hot, flaming, opposite of cold," also "fervent, fierce, intense, excited," from Proto-Germanic *haita- (cognates: Old Saxon and Old Frisian het, Old Norse heitr, Middle Dutch and Dutch heet, German heiß "hot," Gothic heito "heat of a fever"), from PIE root *kai- "heat" (cognates: Lithuanian kaistu "to grow hot").
The association of hot with sexuality dates back to c.1500. Taste sense of "pungent, acrid, biting" is from 1540s. Sense of "exciting, remarkable, very good" is 1895; that of "stolen" is first recorded 1925 (originally with overtones of "easily identified and difficult to dispose of"); that of "radioactive" is from 1942.
Hot flashes in the menopausal sense attested from 1887. Hot air "unsubstantiated statements, boastful talk" is from 1900. Hot stuff for anything good or excellent is by 1889. Hot potato in figurative sense is from 1846. The hot and cold in hide-and-seek or guessing games are from hunting (1640s), with notion of tracking a scent.
_________________ Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare' Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words
Old English hat "hot, flaming, opposite of cold," also "fervent, fierce, intense, excited," from Proto-Germanic *haita- (cognates: Old Saxon and Old Frisian het, Old Norse heitr, Middle Dutch and Dutch heet, German heiß "hot," Gothic heito "heat of a fever"), from PIE root *kai- "heat" (cognates: Lithuanian kaistu "to grow hot").
The association of hot with sexuality dates back to c.1500. Taste sense of "pungent, acrid, biting" is from 1540s. Sense of "exciting, remarkable, very good" is 1895; that of "stolen" is first recorded 1925 (originally with overtones of "easily identified and difficult to dispose of"); that of "radioactive" is from 1942.
Hot flashes in the menopausal sense attested from 1887. Hot air "unsubstantiated statements, boastful talk" is from 1900. Hot stuff for anything good or excellent is by 1889. Hot potato in figurative sense is from 1846. The hot and cold in hide-and-seek or guessing games are from hunting (1640s), with notion of tracking a scent.
In Game of Thrones, oh well the series at least. They use many cuss words common to modern day life. In fact the whole of Westeros is filled with potty mouths. But I don't find it immersion breaking. I doubt we can even compare if it's suitable for the setting/timeline as compared with reality.
I'm in agreement with the original post. I find both use of modern language and lack of puncutation to be harmful to my enjoyment of roleplaying. Both things become as natural as breathing when you exercise them enough, too.
I'm also opposed to modern swearing, but that is a personal opinion and not a server rule.
If grammar and punctuation bothers you I feel you are being bothered by something that has such a minor relevance. Sure it is text you see but the immersion should be you "hearing" what the character says.
_________________
Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.
It's inconsistent with the way NPCs and (most) other PCs communicate on the server, thus it is harmful to ones immersion and enjoyment. Roleplaying transcends your typical text based online communication in my books, at least! Would you enjoy reading a book that was improperly punctuated and capitalized? I wouldn't get past page one.
Books are handled through proof readers and publishers. Wrong spelling and minor grammar flaws is nothing that bothers me. It used to but I got over myself The sooner everyone realises you can not force your standards on others the better
_________________
Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.
Concerning the proper capitalization and punctuation.. yeah, it's absolutely horrible. I can't stand it. I assume lack of care when I see someone doing it. And lack of care is pretty bad.
I feel exactly the same way. Use your damn shift key and make an effort please.
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
I don't even want to guess how many words I select, precisely because I think they are archaic, which are in fact more recently coined than 'OK' which became widely used in the 1830's as part of the fad for deliberate mispellings of word, in this case 'oll korrect'.
And yes, that does mean LOLspeak had already been around for at least 170 years before the first kitten ever got captioned.
Now, even though I know this....' OK' does also sting a little, whereas 'hello' does not. Weird, isn't it?
I like to use Hallo because of a book series I read when I was little had one novel based in Wales, and the country folk would say it like that. It's charming and it has stuck with me ever sense, regardless or not if it fits perfectly in with a setting. What is common, anyway?
I can't really feel that upset about it. It happens. Being upset about the use of OK or even its full version of okay which derived from Old kinderhook in Martin Van Buren's campaign has validity to a D&D purist I can understand, but when the NWN programs the word in many of its own NPCs and even soundsets it seems unfair to nitpick a player for using such words.
When it happens to appease myself I just translate it for my own interpretation as I know what I believe it's intensive purposes were. I do the same thing with people with typos, and that happens all too often as well with online gaming. The you're/your one always made me cringe. At the end of the day I try not to judge other people's RP, and say what is right or wrong. The never ending Lost in Translation dichotomy will always be around. I actually get more knee-jerk about OOC chatter than occasional modern day slang making it into RP for me personally.
For me, almost anything goes. I do not approve of abbreviations that you use in writing but that would not have developed in speech (lol, u, fubar) and I do consider someone who does not punctualize or capitalize to be unintelligent or disrespectful. But there is no good argument to be made to restrict words. We are using English to represent a fantasy language and convey impressions understandable to other players. Not every character is archaic, so why should they try to sound like it? If you're playing a street kid from Cordor, why couldn't you say "Yo, what y'all hanging out here for?" That would convey the character much better than "Pardon, for what purpose do you linger?" That's something my snooty elf would say.
As demonstrated with many individual words, the impression of archaism individual players have rarely coincides with reality. Words that happen to be unusual right now, in the last 20 years, are considered archaic, whereas old words that are in active current use sound too modern. And that's fine, we're not doing philology here. But it would be quite ridiculous to condemn others for not adhering to your subjective, uneducated impression of how Forgotten Realms characters might speak. They might not be going for the same mood and impression you are, so why should their quick-witted rebel or uneducated worker sound faux-Shakespearian for your comfort?
Besides, if we actually started being archaic, most players would not understand. Even Shakespear's words and pronunciation is sometimes so obsolete that a modern reader does not immediately catch the original intention. Since we get the impression of archaism by imagining how the text sounds read aloud, it's probably relevant that the typical player doesn't actually know that. In the very first scene of Macbeth, something is lost when "Upon the heath" no longer rhymes with "There to meet with Macbeth" - which originally it would have, I imagine.
I could always say, "Sothly, ham synnen before myn eighen, þe whilk sikerly wil nat feel Christi loue." And that would be a lot more "authentic" than some fake blend of Shakespear and Jane Austen, if we wanted a medieval flavor. But it really would serve no one's immersion, and it probably takes a while to understand the sentence. I am not even sure if you could use "þe whilk" (which) to refer to "ham" (them). So, we have a Middle English expression that 1) took me a while to come up with, 2) is not necessarily even correct and 3) some people might not understand. And yet, it would be closer to Realmsspeak if we were to go with some kind of chronological matching of English and Common and thus dismissing any post-printing development of English. But it would not work in RP any better than, for some fisherman, "Man, do those blokes have the nerve! Them gods ain't gonna be happy with 'em."
_________________
On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
I can't force people to not use such words: Because Remember that "Common" is a crude trade language which varies was much as the English language actually does: There's regional ways of pronouncing, Saying and writing words and sentences just as it is in the real world.
The difference are like American vs Brittish. Brittish vs Cockney. Cockney vs Jamaican. Jamaican vs South African English. South African English vs European English European English vs Chinese English. Chinese English vs Indian English Indian English vs Mexican English Mexican English vs Canadian English
And ALL the MYRIADS of regional speech; Pub slang, corporate English and what not.
I got some Alots in my personal tester area. Tom can confirm.
I suck at spelling and grammar myself so I'm not one to talk. However as for slang, its funnier to make up your own ICly as that could add to immersion instead of taking away from it.
_________________ Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
I find the correcting of ones spelling mistakes far more annoying than the mistake itself, unless it is a completely different word that would change the whole meaning of the conversation, silly typo corrections are just very annoyng.
I agree somewhat with Dead's post but it's not something that really puts me off, it's a mild annoyance.
What really irks me though is people spamming ooc messages such as 'Lol', 'Wtf', 'I hate etc.', basicly anything that isn't 'Be right back' or something like that. Using exessive ooc is the best way to chase me away when I am watching rp to see if a DC is in order as (almost) nothing breaks my immersion and enjoyment more then that.
_________________ Characters played:
Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar Elloanore (Travelling bard)
Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
O'Raghailligh wrote:
I find the correcting of ones spelling mistakes far more annoying than the mistake itself, unless it is a completely different word that would change the whole meaning of the conversation, silly typo corrections are just very annoyng.
annoying*
I am sorry.
Tell me when you catch me doing that a lot.
_________________ Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar Silwe, the elf
Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Location: [st]Ultrinnan[/st] [st]Edonil[/st] Nec'perya
Shroud wrote:
I'm in agreement with the original post. I find both use of modern language and lack of puncutation to be harmful to my enjoyment of roleplaying. Both things become as natural as breathing when you exercise them enough, too.
I'm also opposed to modern swearing, but that is a personal opinion and not a server rule.
one of the points I was making was that 'modern swearing' has been in the language for like 200 years if not longer and shouldn't really break immersion because its far more authentic than some made up fake word.
_________________ Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare' Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words
Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Location: [st]Ultrinnan[/st] [st]Edonil[/st] Nec'perya
O'Raghailligh wrote:
I find the correcting of ones spelling mistakes far more annoying than the mistake itself, unless it is a completely different word that would change the whole meaning of the conversation, silly typo corrections are just very annoyng.
annoying*
if you are able to correct yourself in character with an excuse that your character stumbled with what they were saying I'm fine with it.
Don't just go // and write the correct word.
_________________ Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare' Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words
Even if modern swearing existed in language 1500 years ago, I still wouldn't consider phrases like "fuck this shit" any more setting appropriate.
Because?
_________________
On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Because in all my combined Forgotten Realms experiences, including books and games, I have never ever ran into such phrases. I realize strong profanity is often left out of official publications for rating or whatever other reasons and perhaps that is why it feels "off" when I encounter it on Amia.
Even if the above wasn't true for me, I really prefer to see a more creative, colorful approach to portraying frustration and anger in character.
Even if modern swearing existed in language 1500 years ago, I still wouldn't consider phrases like "fuck this shit" any more setting appropriate.
As a the standard has been PG13 for the server since I start, at least to the best of my knowledge and that rating has gotten to be very lenient I can't see it being inappropriate as much as you're personal preference. Which just like in real life if you don't like it you either tell that person or don't speak with them often, or at all.
Perhaps I just take a more indifferent out look on this topic then other. If I don't like your character, whether because he's got potty mouth or is just a jerk that's an ic thing. Other then that typos, grammar, punctuation, whatever doesn't bother me because I can simple go with it. Excess ooc party chat that divide the rp is the only real complaint I've ever had. And in real busy areas that can complete ruin what's going on ic for me.
_________________ "I don't know how you persist in being so stubborn-" "It's a superpower. I was bitten by a radioactive mule."
That's a channel I can move or even hide so it really doesn't bother me (Unless I see people swearing at each other in the partychannel while on the client.)
I dislike ooc messages in the 'say' channel that arent like 'be right back.'
Quote:
fuck this shit
= uninspired.
Quote:
Fuck yer shit ye blaggard.
= creative.
Quote:
Urdlen bite yer toes!
= I would love to see swearing like this ingame!
_________________ Characters played:
Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar Elloanore (Travelling bard)
I find if someone annoys me, I just go somewhere else and chill and don't be a dick about it. It's a big wide world out there.
That said, "Earth" does indeed exist in the D&D setting and it's very possible that yes, you could meet a misplaced California Surfer Dude, a lost Hell's Angel, a roaming Twangy Southerner. Be thankful.
_________________ Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice
(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)
That said, "Earth" does indeed exist in the D&D setting and it's very possible that yes, you could meet a misplaced California Surfer Dude, a lost Hell's Angel, a roaming Twangy Southerner. Be thankful.
Not without an approved request though!
_________________ Characters played:
Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar Elloanore (Travelling bard)
I can not see how you can sit on such high horses and complain about language use.
Ca 1380 English for reference.
Quote:
And it was don aftirward, and Jhesu made iorney by citees and castelis, prechinge and euangelysinge þe rewme of God, and twelue wiþ him; and summe wymmen þat weren heelid of wickide spiritis and syknessis, Marie, þat is clepid Mawdeleyn, of whom seuene deuelis wenten 3out, and Jone, þe wyf of Chuse, procuratour of Eroude, and Susanne, and manye oþere, whiche mynystriden to him of her riches.
Now if Common = English and you wish to have a medival setting be my guest and proceed to talk like that
_________________
Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.
Joined: 23 Sep 2012 Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
You can not convey emotion through writing as well as you think. Other players are not mind readers, they can not read your speech as morose or angered, they read it as words in their own head with their own voice. And it is because of this that players utilise other means of instilling that dramatic effect on other players; vulgarity. Nothing says your PC despises another PC better than saying "Go fuck yourself" as opposed to "Sod off, git".
I write how my characters would talk, this includes incorrect grammar because that denotes how I want you to read what and how my character is saying what she is. For example;
"I will not speak with that... Thing!" Or "If you ever.. Do that again.. I. will kill you"
It's much less tedious than
"If you ever *brief pause* Do that again *brief pause* I *even briefer pause* will kill you.
_________________ Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
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assume lack of care when I see someone doing it. And lack of care is pretty bad.
