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I'm back after a couple of months Amia leave and decided to make a Sorcerer and feed my alt addiction.

Before i start let me say WOW to the new summons, having so many options is a vast improvement and actually allows me to make a far more interesting Conjurer

Even do most versions are far weaker then the old ones((who i always felt were way to strong)) Again loving the change

But here's the thing i'm confused about the Epic summons.
I want to take the Epic Dragon knight//Red Dragon with Epic Conjuration since you dont see allot of them running around
Why don't i see folks taking Epic Dragon Knights? they sure cant be weaker then Mummy dust version
I'm more concerned about the reports of the Dragon getting stuck all the time
And last but not least : Why do most high lvl casters run around with the same Mummy dust summon-> the construct? is it THAT good/OP? it cant be the only viable thing out there

Thanks!

Some casters have the EDK. It's smaller now so it should be less prone to get stuck. I do see the construct EMD more than the others but I've had the elemental and it's pretty good too. Not sure about the Sirrush. Players do not seem to like the neutral outsider for some reason although I've never had one or even seen one in action.

Negative. It LOOKS smaller but its hitbox is just as large as before. The joys of "resizing".

Does it still get stuck in doorways?

No, but it retains the huge click and nudge box.

WELL, as long as it doesn't get stuck I'm happy!

The new hak has the juvenile sized dragons. This means the EDK summons will no longer need to be the invisible models with the dragon tails (resized), but will be standard models with the appropriate sized boxes.

Pony wrote:

The new hak has the juvenile sized dragons. This means the EDK summons will no longer need to be the invisible models with the dragon tails (resized), but will be standard models with the appropriate sized boxes.

You're my hero! I'll be sure its applied asap to EDK.

Darkblade wrote:

And last but not least : Why do most high lvl casters run around with the same Mummy dust summon-> the construct? is it THAT good/OP?

Yes, unfortunately it is.

The reason why everyone is running around with either golem or the undead pharaon guard is because those two are actually useful. The rest, led by absoutely terrible animal summon (big cat, don't know the name) are just pale in comparison.

Not true.

The construct, undead, and elemental are the "tanky" choice roles of the summon and each has it's different method of damage mitigation as well as other differences to balance the difference usefulness. The choices of these who tank less than others have better ab and damage and can have their "weapons" buffed.

The other EMD choices have -different- roles from the tanky choices. Some are designed to be offensive damage dealers and some are designed to be flanking supporters. If, for example, you are a spellsword who can tank and draw fire and hold it, you would be well-served in choosing one of these over a tank because having it dealing damage is a much better dynamic than it being weighted toward defense.

Most mages are typical squishie casters who would want tanks because that works best for their idiom and dynamic. Choosing a non-tanky summon means it just gets torn to shreds unless you are a tank yourself, or have a steady group of tanks you can count on.

Most people probably don't run around with dragons because they last in rounds/level and taking Epic Conjuration Focus is a good way to waste 3 feats since almost no worthwhile mage conjuration spells even have DCs.

Yeah, well... you are wrong.

Construct, undead and elemental are top three, there is no discussion. They have shitload of immunities, very decent ab and ac and construct, as a little cherry on top, has absolutely insane regeneration. Simply, construct is the best summon there is.

Corrupter of Fate / Arcadian Avenger / Githzerai monk have very little immunities. AB and AC is approximately same as with top three. Nontheless, lesser HP, lesser immunities and very "meh" saves makes them worse overall. Only fully buffed they can do / take some damage.

That cat thing I had only a while, and unless it changed, it was catastrophical. No immunities, saves, small hp, mediocre ab and ac at best. Did you ever wonder why only a handful of players have it? In fact, I think I have seen only once with other PC.

Long story short - pick a summon, take them on a "test" ride into any epic area (because they are epic summons) and just watch, if you don't believe me. I did test them all and I stand by my opinion. And the fact that 90% of the server have the top three ES is proof enough. Maybe even 95%.

Guardian is almost right - who wants to use the elemental? It's construct or undead all the way.

:/

As something of a sidetrack to the 'what summons is best' debate: Is there any chance of seeing an illusion category in epic summons? Or buffs to the summon shadow line of spells with illusion foci?

Casvenx wrote:

As something of a sidetrack to the 'what summons is best' debate: Is there any chance of seeing an illusion category in epic summons? Or buffs to the summon shadow line of spells with illusion foci?

As a concerned party, I fully support this question; expanding it to divination as well.
Presently, however, I believe that all summons, EDK included, are inferior to Construct EMD, due to combination of best immunities & minimal (compared to other summons) amount of buffs, necessary to achieve adequate performance.

I was disappointed by the expansion of Mummy Dust away from undead. I liked the IC temptation to meddle with oogly undeath.

what happened to the need summon update mosh was working on?

Uberuce wrote:

I was disappointed by the expansion of Mummy Dust away from undead. I liked the IC temptation to meddle with oogly undeath.

I wish some Mummy Dust fluff/lore would come out since Amia has had such extensive changes to the feat.

The Sirrush is brilliant. Almost never dies and even when severaly wounded it regenerates back to full health quickly. It also has evasion and a good reflex save so your own spells don't affect it too much if you like to use evocation spells and aiming isn't your strong suit.
It's not the best tank but it does a lot of damage and hits often.

I don't know about the others, Might and Magic is right about the roles though.

I'd suggest to pick the summon that suits your character the best roleplay wise.

The geared guardian seems very popular but for obvious reasons undead summons aren't used too much. The elemental summon I only saw one person using. The Arcadian avenger is very popular in Kohlingen

The construct is definitely overtuned.

Aw mate! Does this mean I get to flex my creature balancing skills?

People are always going to go for the summons that have the immunities. Construct immunities, massive regen, enough AB to hit things even in epic dungeons, enough AC to not die to a group of monsters. That makes it a far, far better choice than the Arcadian Avenger even if the AA is a better attacker. Heck, the crit immunity of the construct alone makes it a better choice than the AA.

Exactly.

You want a summon that can SURVIVE and don't go down when the first group of mobs attack it. The summons are very interesting and I like that we can choose between them; But they were poorly balanced.
They should ALL have been more tanky.

Very_Svensk wrote:

They should ALL have been more tanky.

With a possible exception of Pharaoh Sentinel, who is tanky enough, if vulnerability to UDtD and blunt damage is not taken into account.
By the way, is there any specific reason why it's CE, unlike normal mummies, which are usually LE?

I didn't know any better.

Hudson wrote:

I don't know about the others, Might and Magic is right about the roles though.

With all due respect, you kinda contradict yourself here.

You claim you do not know about the others, which you don't, because you would not say that Sirrush is brilliant otherwise, but you confirm someone's opinion on the matter

.

Take any epic summon there is and put it against Sirrush. I guarantee you that Sirrush goes down in few rounds. In fact, the last time we have put it in the test against Eddie's Greater Planar Binding (!!!), level 8 spell, and we have buffed both creatures the same way (haste, stat boosts etc) the cat got served by Sword Battleloth!

By the way, I like the fact that AA is popular in Kohlingen, because that actually means Kohlingen's are roleplayers, kudos. I am using Corrupter of Fate myself because Eddie's demonlova', but I know that I would do much better with the golem.

Seriously - it is not the first time this topic was brought in. Any balance guru will confirm total domination of the construct, followed by undead/elemental. Any other pick is either roleplay wise (which I appreciate), or an experiment (which will quickly make you request a change of your ES).

Very_Svensk wrote:

Guardian is almost right - who wants to use the elemental?

Well elemental have pretty neat stun aura and damage resistances. Attack is slightly mediocre, but it has same immunities as construct, so it can take a few blows even from epic bosses. But it's sure the weakest from the top three.

Guardian wrote:

Darkblade wrote:

And last but not least : Why do most high lvl casters run around with the same Mummy dust summon-> the construct? is it THAT good/OP?

Yes, unfortunately it is.

The reason why everyone is running around with either golem or the undead pharaon guard is because those two are actually useful. The rest, led by absoutely terrible animal summon (big cat, don't know the name) are just pale in comparison.

Haha what. My druid and sorc would disagree. The Sirrush is fantastic. It's actually really, really good.

Also my spellsword and cleric will tell you that the Arcadian is ridiculously awesome as well. Evil people will tell you the Corrupter is good as well.

So, yeah, it's not just those two that are good.

As a bystander, seeing all of these summons in combat, seeing all of them obliterating whatever is in their path, I would say they all are way too strong, way too tanky, way too damaging, way too resistant and way too cheap for what they are. All of these summons can replace a dedicated melee character, and that is concerning.

With that said, pick whatever you think fits your character's rp the best. They all are ridiculously powerful anyway. None is "weaker" than the others, they're just going to shine more in different situations.

Mushidoz wrote:

All of these summons can replace a dedicated melee character, and that is concerning.

Yeah. Okay.

I, and many others, would rather have a PC than a EMD in party any day. However EMD is nice to fill a role of extra tank/DPS when another party member is not able to be found.

Each of the summons have their strengths and weaknesses, but they all share one thing. While decent in their roles, none of them are a match for a dedicated melee character. They're simply good enough to adequately fill in if you don't have a melee-focused PC. They absolutely aren't as good as one though. Even with full mage-buffs, your average WM, Barbarian or other melee character would wipe the floor with the EMD, and that's how it should be.

Manarethan wrote:

Each of the summons have their strengths and weaknesses, but they all share one thing. While decent in their roles, none of them are a match for a dedicated melee character. They're simply good enough to adequately fill in if you don't have a melee-focused PC. They absolutely aren't as good as one though. Even with full mage-buffs, your average WM, Barbarian or other melee character would wipe the floor with the EMD, and that's how it should be.

+1

Tested and approve.

Naivatkal wrote:

Haha what. My druid and sorc would disagree. The Sirrush is fantastic. It's actually really, really good.

Guardian wrote:

Take any epic summon there is and put it against Sirrush. I guarantee you that Sirrush goes down in few rounds. In fact, the last time we have put it in the test against Eddie's Greater Planar Binding (!!!), level 8 spell, and we have buffed both creatures the same way (haste, stat boosts etc) the cat got served by Sword Battleloth!

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Naivatkal wrote:

Evil people will tell you the Corrupter is good as well.

Guardian wrote:

I am using Corrupter of Fate myself because Eddie's demonlova', but I know that I would do much better with the golem.

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As for Mana's post, I have never claimed that ES are stronger than PC's, that would be pretty ridiculous.

What I am trying to say and what I have tested with few others manytimes is that some ES are pretty much solid and worthy of the feat. And some are just sadly inefficient. And yet again I will repeat myself - why do you think there is massive outnumber of construct/undead summons? Why do you think you see Sirrush summon only very rarely? I don't really buy this "each summon have pros and cons". For example, Golem beats Sirrush on every level - dps, hp, ab, ac, regeneration, immunities. So tell me the scenario where the Sirrush is actually the better pick than golem?

The summons I have seen had huge AC, huge damage reductions, had about 500 or so HP (that's twice what Saya has), could dish out 50 or so dmg on average (perhaps even their minimum damage) and had all sort of immunities or regeneration that no other PC could achieve. If someone tried to make a character that would have everything the summons have (through multiclassing), they would be weaker than the actual summon on mostly all of these aspects. Heck, I have seen these summons solo tank the omnielemental epic boss in that elf ruin, making the caster effectively soloing this boss like it's just some random longer to kill creep. You won't do that with a melee.

PCs can however achieve higher in one or two of these points (they are more specialized), and have an intelligent player behind, so they act to make use of their strengths and play off their weaknesses and the enemies'. Having a player as an ally is preferable any day to a summon for many varied reasons.. but the summons can very easily replace a melee character, simply because the mage in the back will make sure to compensiate for what the summon might lack that the melee-er provides (usually raw damage or disables).

You never find yourself lacking a melee character when you're a caster, while the melee dude will definately miss not having a caster around, which is why I say that the summons are too powerful and that no matter which one he chooses, it's going to do its job well enough anyway. They are too good in too many aspects for the little investment they require (that's my opinion, better explained, hope you understand it better now).

EDIT: Just to add to the imagery here, so that you understand my point better, how would you react if a fighter 28 / rogue 1 / wizard 1 had access to a summon that is equally good at casting spells and buffing as the wizard's summon is at tanking / damaging / being immune to crap / hitting / dodging/ blocking / resisting damage?

And how many heal pots/ Healing kits were used to keep those summons alive. For certainly the elemental boss you are referring to will rip these summons apart and if the mage does not back the summon up, the elemental won't lose to a summon purely. Plus with any bosses it is about the tactics, there are people who can effectively solo most and not necessary even being casters.

About the 50 dmg minimum is not correct either. I don't know what summons you have seen, but please make a caster and try the summons actually and you will see there are those who actually don't do that kind of dmg on average. It is quite so depending on the situation and luck what they roll.
I think you mainly focusing on Guardian, Elemental, Sirruh.. And the Good and Evil alimented conjuration summons.

As a mage player, I always try to get people to join me rather than go in alone. Why? Much more efficient and safe. To even compare a summon to a PC is a joke. Granted, if someone totally has messes up the build or not planned it to any direction, then yes.. I am better of with a summon, but usually the "decent" melee PC's are far more better to go with than summon. Plus, I've seen plenty of melee builds soloing most of the bosses themselves without actually needing a caster there. Sometimes I am only needed for keeping the haste up and running.. And even without me, they would keep going.

Your not meant to make a PC that has all what summons have, otherwise they would be completely OP. The greatest lack of summons is the lack of a player controlling them, PC's can own NPC's anytime.

Exactly what Magiros said.

The summon Mush is refering to is 99% the golem summon. And for a split second I do not believe it tanked the omni elemental without very, very decent backup from a veteran player who knew what to expect.

An epic summon, by itself, is as good as a dedicated melee player-character?

My reaction

I think part of the issue is that NWN controls tank types much better then it does other types, so even if things are balanced the tanks will come out on top.

It's silly to expect any summons to stand up to epic bosses; They should mop the floor with them just like PCs would. If that is your criteria, you're doing it wrong. (<-- That's and opinion, and semi-joke, if that's not clear.)

Construct and undead should maybe get a movement penalty. This would do much to balance the over-balanced nature of their immunities, AND be thematic.

Sirrush was actually fairly popular for a while, used to see it all the time. I think the people that dislike it are using it wrong. Which is my next point: I think the secretive nature of the summons are causing people to use them poorly. People go with the construct because it's the safest bet, and you don't really get to change your mind on a pinnacle feat. I understand *why* the specifics are of the summons is secretive, but it's also effecting the player/characters that would be using them.

The outsider choices are probably the poorest... though I only base that on hearsay and because I so rarely see them. I don't think I've ever seen the neutral one. Out of personal bias I'm rather curious how that one is, my neutral caster gets an epic spell next level (though with foci in illusion and enchantment, none of the MD summons are looking particularly attractive).

I know it's been mentioned before, but the neutral summons (not just epic) are generally significantly poorer than the good/evil counterparts. Show the middle some love!

Last edited by Mushidoz on Sun, Apr 13 2014, 19:15 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Granted I have only seen the golem and elemental beat the omnimental, but it was losing no hp whatsoever from what I recall. The caster used greater ruins, then shaped into a death slaad and threw acid at it. Easy fight, no challenge whatsoever.. and all that while if we storm this thing with 3 melees, we have 2 of us healing like mad while the other is on his/her bum because of chaos shield.

As for focusing on 5 types of summons (6 with undead).. the only mummy dust summon I never seen is the Githzerai Savant. I -think- I remember the angel one was not -that- amazing compared to the others?

By the way, I admitted and agreed that PCs are better than summons, and Magiros echoed pretty much what I said:

Quote:

PCs can however achieve higher in one or two of these points (they are more specialized), and have an intelligent player behind, so they act to make use of their strengths and play off their weaknesses and the enemies'. Having a player as an ally is preferable any day to a summon for many varied reasons.. but the summons can very easily replace a melee character, simply because the mage in the back will make sure to compensiate for what the summon might lack that the melee-er provides (usually raw damage or disables).

I would also be royally insulted if Rambo the Barbarian could summon a level 24 bard or mage and buff / cast spells as good as the melee summon does what it does atm. And I would value the mummy dust summons as more powerful than lvl 24 characters personally.. (mainly because of buffs that the same class that summoned it can give)

That the summons can be decent in many aspects, I am fine with that. But that they are -that- good in all of them is what I consider too much.. It's not like the tanky summons deal no damage and can only tank. It's not like the damaging summons cannot handle melee fighting. It's not like the resistant summons have low / non existant AC. They all have a fair huge amount of everything and are far stronger than the regular mummy dust is supposed to be like. No summon should ever be able to tank / damage as well as they do right now against ANY epic bosses. And imo that is not the epic bosses' being too weak, it's the summons being too good at what they do.

These summons would not stop being used if their HP / saves / whatever was dropped by half because they would still serve as decoys / extra damage / whatever for the already powerful mage behind that normally does not even have to heal that summon because of how strong it currently is (the tanky ones at least, I don't remember seeing the geared golem or elemental needing someone to use bandages on them.. and I've seen several casters with those - I don't even remember seeing their HP go down, even when they're the dedicated tankers)

But all of that is for another topic <.< To the original poster -> Just pick whatever you think your character should be able to summon, the one that fits your character's RP the most, and then enjoy the game!

Mushidoz wrote:

Rambo the Barbarian could summon a level 24 bard or mage and buff / cast spells as good as the melee summon does what it does atm. And I would value the mummy dust summons as more powerful than lvl 24 characters personally.. (mainly because of buffs that the same class that summoned it can give)

No no no, not Rambo.

Frugdar the Barbarian.

Anywho, in all honesty, perhaps they have lots of immunities - but that certainly does not make them better than melee characters, it makes them able to handle different situations than a melee character. I guarantee, if you have the choice between Dirk Longstrider and an epic mummy summon, while going through beholders, you'll want Dirk

Mushidoz wrote:

By the way, I admitted and agreed that PCs are better than summons, and Magiros echoed pretty much what I said:

Quote:

PCs can however achieve higher in one or two of these points (they are more specialized), and have an intelligent player behind, so they act to make use of their strengths and play off their weaknesses and the enemies'. Having a player as an ally is preferable any day to a summon for many varied reasons.. but the summons can very easily replace a melee character, simply because the mage in the back will make sure to compensiate for what the summon might lack that the melee-er provides (usually raw damage or disables).

I think Mushidoz point is that, as much as people complain about pocket mage syndrome, the mage's all have extremely accomplished melee-ers in their pocket, and people are complaining they aren't tough enough. No one is actually arguing a human controlled toon is weaker than the game controlled ones, just pointing out the difference is the human, not the abilities. If a PC could achieve the abilities the summons have it would stomp everything.

Hmm, for comparison, is an epic shifter in a comparable form weaker or stronger than the epic summon? Does that hold true with and without buffs? Or only with self buffs? The question isn't who would win, as obviously the human controlled toon would change things to play to their strengths, but which is stronger on paper. If the epic summon is stronger then the epic shifter (assuming the shifter is self buffed and the summons fully buffed by it's wizard is probably fairest, as that is what they are balanced for), then the epic summon is way too strong IMO. I don't know the answer, but I feel like the summons would definitely look stronger on paper.

Epic Shifters have extreme versatility, and can do some pretty amazing things.

Mercedes wrote:

Epic Shifters have extreme versatility, and can do some pretty amazing things.

So do wizards. The versatility wasn't the question, but a comparison of one of their epic shapes to an epic summons. I think that's a fair comparison... They both have a handful of options, with similar abilities and immunities. The human factor says the shifter 'wins', but I don't think wizards should be walking around with summons that outclasses a PC that similar. Comparing the shifter to the wizard itself should be fairly even... wizards are generally considered the most powerful AND the most versatile, but shifters are pretty well up there too, and with the Amia customization might even be stronger. But the epic iron golem of a shifter should be stronger then the epic geared guardian, IMO.

I've soloed the Elemental as a shifter, taking no damage.

Shifters are far stronger, yo.

Mr. Hackums wrote:

I've soloed the Elemental as a shifter, taking no damage.

Shifters are far stronger, yo.

From what someone said above, with the summons soloing the elemental and taking little to no damage, That makes them equal. And that's with you a human directing the shifter (using what shape?), and the NWN engine directing the summon, which would lead me to believe the summon is stronger on paper than the similar shifter shape.

This is not to say the shifter class isn't strong, btw. The versatility alone makes the class stronger than the summon, but comparing a class to a summon is silly. That should be no comparison.

Well, I think the majority of players entirely disagree with Mushidoz's observation that a summon could do such a thing. Myself included, as I've seen it eat a golem very quickly!

Mr. Hackums wrote:

Well, I think the majority of players entirely disagree with Mushidoz's observation that a summon could do such a thing. Myself included, as I've seen it eat a golem very quickly!

Well I've -seen- the opposite. The golem tanking up front with crapload of buffs on it, and the mage at the back throwing greater ruin then spam acid spit from the death slaad.

Please note that in no way shape of form do I think shifters are weaker / equal to these summons. They are far superior.. but we're comparing 1 feat with an entire class... and we're also talking about what's supposed to be one of the strongest epic bosses on Amia. EMD tanks the living crap out of pretty much all other epic bosses I am aware of and nobody can argue against that (beholder majesty might beat it after 3 or so greater ruin granted that it isn't healed in-between.. other than that?).

...Wat.

No. Just, no. I'm further confused as to how you think a mage using spitballs (Which have thankfully been fixed) makes the summon in any way responsible for beating the creature. The hasted, death slaad mage using the summon was using it as a luxury, when he could have just kited and giggled.

The Boss you're referencing also does its damage with a damage shield. I'm not going to get into spoiling specifics, but the reason why that summon survived is due to its low AB, and high health. Its low AB, and high health. The summon would not have been able to kill the boss alone as its own source of damage, because it likely did very, very little in that fight. In the example provided, it was an almost unnecessary auxiliary tool.

You're also looking at a fully buffed summon, while claiming it as being powerful as a single feat. When the power of a summon comes from the CL of the buffs and caster, the ability to buff, reliability that debuffs don't occur, and then firepower support from the mage to make sure it doesn't get overwhelmed. An unbuffed EMD is also incredibly weak- either really vulnerable, or lacking all sense of offense.

The Majesty, Snowbeast, Manor of Mourn, and more will each kill even fully buffed EMD's. Not every time, but it happens regularly enough to be a threat. The Bound Elemental isn't a boss that is known for its high damage. Its known for taking multiple people to kill it. More offensive bosses and creatures will have no trouble tearing through the EMD tank.

Mushidoz wrote:

EMD tanks the living crap out of pretty much all other epic bosses I am aware of and nobody can argue against that (beholder majesty might beat it after 3 or so greater ruin granted that it isn't healed in-between.. other than that?).

Mm, yeah, I actually can argue that. Having witnessed many boss fights both DM-side and Player-side, I can pretty safely say that almost every boss chews through fully buffed EMDs like wet paper bags. The only one I can think of that has trouble is the now non-existent Dominagus, and potentially Rabka the Bound because, as Hackums said, Rabka primarily kills you by letting you hit it to death through Chaos Shield. And even while surviving, the EMD could not solo-kill either of those bosses. Please don't state your opinions as facts without having actually either played a mage with one of these summons, or extensively tested them against bosses.

Lithorn, Salem, Serenade, Silverstone - all caster characters I have been boss hunting heavily with, and the only time I recall one of their summon took damage was when greater ruin was cast on it. Their summons just tank the living crap out of every epic boss I've fought against (basically, all of them except the Actand / Phane.. and perhaps some I do not know in the underdark?). I do not need to be a mage to see just how they plow through things, I can see that on my screen every time I get invited to hunt (all by mages - Saya has a LOT of caster friends)

I don't know how much AB/AC the geared golem has, but I don't recall seeing it miss often either. On the contrary, I recall very clearly just sitting back and looking at the pirate and chest get soloed by that golem like it's nothing, while Saya struggles to deal 3 dmg to the chest with her critical hits (heck, dominagus as well - both the dragon and golem have a seemingly easy time to hit that boss, which requires touched attack or spells to hit reliably), so I stand at a distance waiting for the pirate to use pulse so that I don't get killed (and usually it won't pulse before dying because the golem / dragon deals 40+ dmg to it without taking damage)

Dunno, I invite you to watch someone with the geared golem solo hunt epic bosses, because clearly it's happening and I see it --veeery often-- and I don't need to be dm for that.

- Elemental dies the way I mentioned
- Maximus does not approach the mage and can't kill the geared golem, so he gets killed in one greater ruin and some spits to the face
- Pirate/chest is entirely soloed by either EMD or dragon knight (except when the dragon get pulsed.. golem is immune though)
- Vampire.. no idea, I fear the children more than I fear the boss and I have no idea what he even does because he's usually dead before any sort of fight can occur
- Darkness gets pummeled to death by the summon while the mage goes spellblock in the back
- Windy - never seen a solo mage do it because I am always in groups. Similarly, I have no idea why that boss is considered epic because I never seen it survive half a round

- Maximus - seen it get hit by the golem, which is something I can ony do with crits. Will very easily tank the boss while the mage blasts it from the back
- Beholder majesty - can tank some, not the best to fight that boss.. but then a lvl 17 has access to the spell that makes this boss a pussy with the cheapest most well known "strategy" ever, so it's pretty irrelevant
- Snowbeast. That one might damage the golem, but it won't survive long enough if fire spells are shot at it
-Fire giant king... lol

Nope, list is done, seen at least 2 summons completely tank / survive these bosses without trouble. If the mage can dish out damage from the back without interruption because that ONE spell allows them to, I say that summon is too good at what it does.

Now, if your claim is "well you can't consider the summon when it's buffed! It's weak when unbuffed" it's the same as saying mages are weak because they need buffs to fight, or that you have to balance the server according to unbuffed mages. It makes no sense whatsoever. Whenever you think of these summons, you have to consider they automatically come with these buffs ESPECIALLY if we're talking pvm because mages will have these spells available and will put them on the summon before they fight. And with these buffs and raw stats, they are either too tanky or too damagy for the little investment this feat require. They're basically a walking / damaging / tanking 500+ HP damage buffer.

I disagree with you in almost all your claims. Anyhow, don't have the time to delve further now in details as to why... but will do so later if not someone else do it before me.

Question about EPIC summons

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