As another point, while we're all for encouraging roleplaying your skills and abilities, we actively frown down upon dice rolling. If I, unknowst to anyone, tell someone something trying to persuade them even to the best of your RP abilities, sometimes they just won't budge for whatever reason, without knowing you're secretly 100+ persuade.
Now I do the same thing with the same sentence and then ROLL the skill check, suddenly people tend to have issues with "Oh, don't use Dice Rolls instead of RPing it".
I think a fine line needs to be drawn to what extent we're being asked to RP our skills.
On a side note, I think the quick-judging of some builds needs to stop.
I'm going to say I play a dual-ancestry Earth Genasi+Green Dragon Disciple. There is very valid IC reasons why both have manifested and anyone that's interacted with her can attest both heritages manifest in to her personality.
But the moment anyone finds out about this, it's already "Oh, powergamer." The same happens with melee PMs or Paladin/Rogues.
Perhaps instead of judging someone's build instantly, people should look to actually either RPing with them or giving them the benefit of the doubt that because YOU don't RP with them, they're actually RPing what they've built.
_________________
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
Your build isn't perfect but that doesn't mean it's gimped - 30CL has its benefits, and actually high spellcraft helps to raise your saves (regardless of the fact that you're probably hitting the cap) and, of course, it's well-established that spellcraft is important in DM events. So you're gaining some things for those build decisions. But you're also getting for free something that other people take into account for their builds, and trying to be the guy who has power not represented on the character sheet which I don't think is entirely fair.
Yes, all the mental scores are used in social interactions in different ways - a high int/wis character will handle social situations in a particular and noticeable way, compared to a high cha or someone with middling mental scores. But you've said yourself that you roleplay your character as "charming" and a leader, and I don't think anyone is under the illusion that "charm" isn't definitively associated with charisma. Absolutely, skill dumps in "useless" skills should count, but a low-cha PC with high bluff, persuade and intimidate will approach their interactions differently than someone who just has high charisma. The skills are a little more focused than general ability score use. I mean, you can use bluff/persuade to say for instance, seduce someone but only with particular approaches - animal magnetism isn't really covered.
People that powerbuild have a slight-to-decent advantage in PvP and PvE combat. But we're a roleplay server and there are plenty more challenges than that. Really the fact that you're comfortable with a sub-optimised build means it's a bit baffling that bumping your cha up from 6 is such an abhorrent idea to you. I mean, you're entitled to roleplay however you want, but just bear in mind that you'll need to square it off with DMs when it comes to getting their help. I'm aware that when it actually gets down to playing your PC and interacting with other PCs, the lines blur a little, but I think an effort should be made to reconcile roleplay with stats, in the interest of fairness. Like I said, about giving other people a chance to shine in those areas.
Actually there can be. The difference especially in the highly trained is very subtle and hard to pick up but it is there.
I'm not convinced. Unless the person explicitly RPs their stats (which is already hard) you would have no idea how their effective skill is composed.
Also: Are magically increased attributes necessarily RPed differently in the way they contribute to skills? Are magical skill bonuses differently? Are mundane equipment bonuses different? Can you tell (without spellcraft) that my equipment looks mundane but is actually giving me +30 skill? I doubt it.
It's all possible to RP all these aspects (and I applaud those that do) but it should not be mandatory and so you cannot say that there are ways to pick up "subtle differences".
Mind you, I understand that one cannot RP high CHA with just high Bluff, only the other way around. (Except that Bluff is a bad example for this. ;)
Joined: 09 May 2010 Location: Canada Ontario, GMT -5
serbiris wrote:
Really the fact that you're comfortable with a sub-optimised build means it's a bit baffling that bumping your cha up from 6 is such an abhorrent idea to you.
I wouldn't be disinclined to raise his Charisma a couple points since he would have more than six, but he's already dealing with a -2 Charisma score simply from his being a tiefling (which makes no sense btw). So I would have to raise it more than that, gimping my already gimped build further to appease others. Making some sacrifices for RP is all well and good but there is a limit to that. People think that having a strong build doesn't reflect your character, that this is a RP server not a PVP server and you are only half right.
This is still a very competitive server especially when it comes to PVP. You can be the most accurate character out there making sacrifices for RP left right and center. If you end up in a PVP situation it doesn't matter how tough your character should be in game. You're completely screwed. Of course RP situation that leads up to the PVP then carries on after. Now you are captured, now you are at the mercy of the stronger built RPers because they did not make as many sacrifices as you did for their character.
Unless DMs added more tangible bonuses and penalties for appropriate RPing of abilities, skills and classes this simply wont catch on. Some of us almost never end up in DM Events, what reason do those players have for making tons of sacrifices for their RP?
I'm of the belief and expectation that very low stat numbers should have some effect in your RP. I'm not aggressive towards it but if you're talking astrophysics on a half Orc barbarian named Rock Munchmunch in complete sentences I'm calling bollocks.
I think it's the extremes, there's the gray area of course but if it's below average human beings (or whatever your race is) it should be below average in some defendable way. Rosie isn't ugly but she's hideously scarred and not a good motivator at all not to mention her occasional bouts with anger and clinginess.
And there's hardly ever a problem with people not playing their stats high enough considering how many tallest strongest bravest mfers there are. Now int and wis can only possibly be underplayed due to your ooc reasons, everyone can play dumb ugly clumsy and cowardly well enough.
_________________ Rosie Adenney - The Smiling Red Hin Dalur Illien - Hound of Justice Tria Under - Blunt as Stone
Alas i feel as a 28 int wiz i often fall short of what Mith should be able to do. There are simply things he should know that i can't. I try to supplement this with a great deal of reading through the various DnD source books. While my char can't know how everything in there works, he gets some of it. Sadly this likely comes across as "lol i read source books" when applied in game. The important thing to do is be honest with what your char simply would not know.
That said, i don't think playing up your High stats is as important as it is not not play stats you don't have. Superman has a str score of like 100, and he is not just a great big round ball of muscle. What bothers me more than anything else is a 10 wis/int sorc, that acts more like a wizard wiseman. If you have 8 in a stat, you don't need to drool on yourself, but please please dont pretend to be smart, wise, charismatic. If you have low str, ask people to help you pick things up. Low dex... well.. uh.. scratch my back i can't reach, or oh oh, help me fasten my armor! Low con you can play up the poor fort that goes with that and have your char cough or sniffle a bit. Low Wis will result in your char and you thinking "Is that a good idea?" when you say no, your char says yes. Poor int is as simple as speaking rough common. Cha.. well cha is so wildly varied, give your char a mole and you can call it good.
So yeah, let the smart wise and charismatics be smart wise and charismatic, please.
Edit: Int already has a hard mechanical effect, low wis only reduces your will and i'm not sure what else you could do with it. Low Cha though, perhaps this could be scripted to effect the shops sale/buy discounts. I know it already does to an extent, but i wonder if having a - mod in appraise or cha itself could result in the shop keep not being to keen to deal with you. A dirty stinky half orc at your shop is going to result in many others not wanting to come around after all, so its not good for business!
Can I ask what DMs are intending to do about this? Are they looking to enforce this or just make people aware? Are certain leader characters going to have their CHA looked in to? Are players going to have their characters examined?
The actual point of this thread has been lost during the 3 pages I've read.
I am simply hoping to make people aware of the need to RP their stats, since apparently it's some kind of mystery. Since actually forcing people to do so would raise a shit-storm of truly epic proportions, this is essentially me hoping that people will take it on board themselves and make the right decisions. Of course, that's what I did when I first made this thread, and the players had a nice debate and then everyone completely ignored it anyway. So....yeah, the intention is wishful thinking it seems.
Mana, maybe a good idea is to randomly spring requests for an appropriate dice roll on people? I don't mean only during events and DM run stuff, but just as you DMs are snooping around, send someone a request to roll for their persuasiveness when they're bartering with someone, etc? Might make people a little more aware 'in the moment'. I'm sure that when people consider their whole character, they take these abilities and lack thereof into account, but perhaps 'in the moment' people get lost in what is appropriate/not appropriate for their character?
Joined: 20 Apr 2008 Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
Strawberry Stallion wrote:
Only if it means I can RP my positive stats and thus be able to lift buildings with my 40strength.
I realize that this was probably in jest, but it does highlight a particularly interesting narrative the server seems to be moving towards, especially with the dump-stat talk lately. "You're not as strong as you think you are! That 40 STR is more like, er, 30 adjusted for our setting! Oh... but that -1 Modifier you got in INT totally means you must legally wear a helmet and struggle with understanding 'where does the Sun goes at night?'."
_________________
You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it. Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
You already get the bonusses of all high physical stats mechanicly whereas you don't get any penalty to 6 charisma save for some skills you probably dont use anyway.
Any argument I want to use my high str/con/dex too then doesnt make much sense to me because those are mechanicly covered. I am quite sure a DM would accomodate a high physical stats though if you want to use it in a rp situation.
Its the mental stats that are often used as dump stats and then glossed over and then especially cha and wis as a low int really hampers your skill points.
As for the purpose, we're making people aware. I often check character sheets while on the client and if I interact with a pc I expect stats to be rp'ed.
_________________ Characters played:
Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar Elloanore (Travelling bard)
Only if it means I can RP my positive stats and thus be able to lift buildings with my 40strength.
Your high stats are mechanically supported, your dump stats are basically not. Furthermore even with 40 STR you can't lift a building. That's not how physics works. Your high stats are taken into account by DMs during RP, and for example I've let people with high strength break down walls, overturn stupidly heavy things, etc. But that also means I don't let people with 6 wisdom utilize the brilliantly devised and perfect plan that their player might be able to come up with, but their character couldn't.
Only if it means I can RP my positive stats and thus be able to lift buildings with my 40strength.
Your high stats are mechanically supported, your dump stats are basically not. Furthermore even with 40 STR you can't lift a building. That's not how physics works. Your high stats are taken into account by DMs during RP, and for example I've let people with high strength break down walls, overturn stupidly heavy things, etc. But that also means I don't let people with 6 wisdom utilize the brilliantly devised and perfect plan that their player might be able to come up with, but their character couldn't.
But are they allowed to OoCly suggest said plan to the player who's playing a master tactician Knight Commander in the party? Because theoretically, that character could come up with it, even if their player may not be able to.
That being said, I agree with the primary point in this topic- I've made characters that are dumb as rocks (namely I've been playing a lot as Samush Skullbreaker on Amia lately), and I've made characters that were nearly crippled before and couldn't walk without the help of a cane (Old age modifiers, he had 3 in Str at the time, and his Con wasn't that much better... If he hit Venerable, he'd have died from Str loss alone). Characters should never have their strength and weaknesses ignored- and both should be fully exploited by both the players and the GMs.
A very intelligent or wise character doesn't have to operate at his top constantly. He can make silly jokes or behave like an ass if he chooses to. He has choice on how to behave in regards to his wisdom. Likely when his life is at stake (Or there is gain to be had) he will switch to his best but if he sips ales with his buddies in the Nomad he most likely won't.
A 6 wisdom character doesn't have as much choice/ leeway. He ha a much much reduced operation range avaideble to him.
That's the differance and that's why I'd like to be able to deduct low stats from the characters behaviour.
_________________ Characters played:
Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar Elloanore (Travelling bard)
By that I mean, a player cannot possibly RP accurately an Intelligence of 40, yet would be penalized by just 2 points below average?
I believe the point is that you are required to try. One of them is inexcusably easy.
Is it really? to play a dumb character requires you to do things that are well... dumb! This can put you in a lot of poor and unfriendly positions... for example one time I was out hunting with a party... there were three of us but out of the three I only remember me and a single barbarian. This barbarian tried my patientce IC and OOC. Doing things such as not listening, running into traps when told to stop, bashing chests when it was already stated several times I could unlock them, and not properly participating in the loot order grabbing whatever the hell they could... I take a long look at things these days and I almost always keep my cool. I took a deep breath and then I realized "This person isn't necessarily being counter productive/useless, they're just trying to RP their low intelligence.".
So of course it's difficult to RP that! because now you gotta have your character make decisions that could potentially irritate others out of character and then people just won't play with you. Even though you might be RPing well, and even though that's not how you would normally think. Other players draw oppinions and then eventually you're sort of left alone. It can be very hard not to fall to the temptation of doing everything right just so people can party with you, there is also the reverse where you may not be very good at the game (For example you're the wizard that runs into enemies and draws aggro instead of letting the tank go first, or your the archer that runs up to things and then shoots them at melee range and as a result enemies AoO you all the time) so making intelligent decisions could be difficult there too . It can also be difficult because you OOC might be a very smart person, so you may not think of doing utterly downright stupid shit because that's frankly not natural of you.
Also people seem to over value ability scores... you can have eight intelligence, but still pump points into stuff like Lore. and say your end build has max lore and 6-8 int. Are you still an uneducated dumbass? you got 33 Ranks in lore, with only a -2 penalty. so you're down to 31 lore native. I'm pretty sure you are a remotely educated individual.
Here's another fun thing to look at: Languages. Every character gets 2, regardless. Common and Racial/regional. Now I only know one language really and I'm just barely learning Italian. Does this mean I'm less intelligent than the tribal orc that never went to school? Currently I'm in college. Went through out school my entire life without getting held back. I know science, history, and mathematics. Your dark ages peasant doesen't know what a science even is, and basic math is a foreign language to them!
I'm pretty sure you're supposed to just simply dictate why a stat is low/high. Take low wisdom characters for example: not everything wisdom based is dumbed down, jsut because your stat is low. Espescially if you have like 8 wisdom, but you maxed out your spot and listen. I'm pretty sure your perceptions are amazing even though you personally might not RP yourself as making wise decisions, or ont he flip side. You dump wisdom and actively choose not to take spot because your character is blind in one or both eyes. You may not be wise, but you certainly have a penalty to wisdom for being a cripple.
Vinny, that's really good argument for keeping WIS/INT/CHA undumped.
What I meant by inexcusably easy(and I confess I was being deliberately obtuse) is that the excuse that it's impossible to play 40INT/WIS/CHA because they're superhuman is one that the DMs accept - I've not seen any of them even pretend that they'd know it if they saw it, let alone judge you harshly for failing to RP it.
At the other end of the pool, we all know what stupid/rash/rude is*, and indeed you've given several fine examples in your post, but the fact that they have negative IC and OOC consequences when RPed out is not accepted as an excuse for failing to do so.
*this being the weakest part of my argument, and as I've mentioned above, one that troubles me, albeit distantly. We don't actually all agree on what they are, so all I can do is hope the DMs are giving the right amount of doubt-y benefit-y thingies.
Vinny, that's really good argument for keeping WIS/INT/CHA undumped.
What I meant by inexcusably easy(and I confess I was being deliberately obtuse) is that the excuse that it's impossible to play 40INT/WIS/CHA because they're superhuman is one that the DMs accept - I've not seen any of them even pretend that they'd know it if they saw it, let alone judge you harshly for failing to RP it.
Oh. My bad thought you meant it was that it's so easy to RP stupidity
Uberuce wrote:
At the other end of the pool, we all know what stupid/rash/rude is*, and indeed you've given several fine examples in your post, but the fact that they have negative IC and OOC consequences when RPed out is not accepted as an excuse for failing to do so.
Negative IC consequences isn't a concern, since those are supposed to happen. It's the OOC ones really, certainly don't want to alienate people away from just because I play an arrogant rude and blunt dick (Funny thing is I did this but got the opposite results: Myk. Everyone hated him ICly, everyone loved him OOCly). Not saying it's an acceptable excuse necessarily, but I can't blame them.
Uberuce wrote:
*this being the weakest part of my argument, and as I've mentioned above, one that troubles me, albeit distantly. We don't actually all agree on what they are, so all I can do is hope the DMs are giving the right amount of doubt-y benefit-y thingies.
Benefit of the doubt is best way to approach things like this. Like for my character Kohaku who has crazy intellect but lacks in native charisma... while I still play him quite charismatically and manipulatively, I've provided him with social quirks that folks may find odd or even off putting... this includes things such as not being comfortable when speaking common, massive tattoos that depict oni and dragons that could be off putting, and constant straying to customs and words in his home land. (Basically he always greets people with "Kon'nichiwa, I don't think he's ever said "Hello" once.). Then there was Myk who had 13 intelligence but was a complete dumbass, I guess his intellect was represented by the fact that he could read and write, and he was knowledgable as a warrior/about his weapon (Weapon Master). On an academic and judgement making level however... not so much. It's sort of like I was saying, ability scores are overrated. They feel more like a representation for your characters "Talents" where as skills and class represent your characters "Training". Like the lore example I gave:
Vinny wrote:
you can have eight intelligence, but still pump points into stuff like Lore. and say your end build has max lore and 6-8 int. Are you still an uneducated dumbass? you got 33 Ranks in lore, with only a -2 penalty. so you're down to 31 lore native. I'm pretty sure you are a remotely educated individual.
I mean 33 ranks into lore? You kind of are an intelligent individual then... even with only 6 or 8 int... lol or you just happen to know a lot. Another thing to keep in mind: 3.0/3.5 is hardly a perfect system I wouldn't expect anyones stats to directly dictate the percise outcome of their character.
you've given several fine examples in your post, but the fact that they have negative IC and OOC consequences when RPed out is not accepted as an excuse for failing to do so.
IC fine. But I hate the idea that good RP should have negative OOC consequences. That just upsets me. (Another OOC consequence ... Oh oh, recursion!) Doesn't that bother anyone else?
you've given several fine examples in your post, but the fact that they have negative IC and OOC consequences when RPed out is not accepted as an excuse for failing to do so.
IC fine. But I hate the idea that good RP should have negative OOC consequences. That just upsets me. (Another OOC consequence ... Oh oh, recursion!) Doesn't that bother anyone else?
Ts
Well it bothers me because I complained about it Not sure how I would solve this, only thing I could recommend would be to add an RP EXP system that didn't involve us burning our precious dream coins
IC fine. But I hate the idea that good RP should have negative OOC consequences.
Whoah, haud the boat...
I didn't say dumping stats should cause OOC drama - as has been said for years, folk should Roll with the Punches, but bitter and long experience tells me that there's always some that won't. That's not specific to stat RP, and I guess you know that since you generalised it to 'good RP' but if your character's actions are ever going to have any IC downside of note, some of it will spill over into OOC, and then there's bitching and kvetching aplenty.
The fault here lies squarely with the angry toddler mentality of those players, but it's still a pain in the arse to deal with.
If one has been so foolish as to ask me, Low CHA doesn't automatically mean your toon has to get into a fight every time he or she leaves the house. 'Passive' is what I would call a low-CHA trait. A different animal from 'smart enough to hold one's tongue' and not compatible with a lot of character concepts, but it's there when I don't fancy the Amian drama, which does seem to have curtailed a lot since the server's matured, but maybe I'm just mixing in the right/wrong circles these days.
What Ruce said, I can see extreme shyness as a sign of low charisma and that is about the opposite of being quarrelsome. I don't think it would lead you into fights.
I think finding a good workeble flaw which stems froms low scores (and which you enjoy rp'ing) can quite enhance your rp as it makes your toon that much more complete and believable.
If you have a charisma with low charisma he/she could be quarrelsome if that's rp you like and you don't mind the ic consequences (Other characters likely aren't impressed.) But if you dislike ic quarelling you could go well for extreme shyness instead. Both can work fine.
_________________ Characters played:
Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar Elloanore (Travelling bard)
I think the ICness is affected by the OOCness more than we care to admit. That's why I believe a player with a high Charisma score would have trouble RP'ing his character correctly if he or she as a person isn't charismatic.
IC fine. But I hate the idea that good RP should have negative OOC consequences.
Whoah, haud the boat...
I didn't say dumping stats should cause OOC drama
Sorry, that was probably a misunderstanding. To clarify: "I hate the idea that good RP should have negative OOC consequences" in the meaning of "I hate the idea that something should happen to you." Not sure what that is grammatically, of if it's even correct English, but maybe it's the subjunctive mood? (thanks wikipedia)
Anyway. I hate negative OOC consequences from good RP. I think we should try to avoid them. Not IC consequences, though. And the famous "Roll with the punches" is only fun as long as everyone tries to make it fun. There's a rule on Amia that prisoners must be entertained. I support that rule and I think it is a much better idea than just "roll with the punches".
I think the ICness is affected by the OOCness more than we care to admit. That's why I believe a player with a high Charisma score would have trouble RP'ing his character correctly if he or she as a person isn't charismatic.
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He would one hit Ao into oblivion.
