AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Given recent discussions in topics I was wondering if we could generate some information (that might be available to player characters) regarding to the imports and exports of each settlement.

I would personally find this interesting and it would be interesting RP if for instance Ostland did a trade embargo and not sell Iron. With recent developments in RL with Russia, countries are planning plenty of economic sanctions. I think this could provide interesting RP opportunities across the server. Something that may be option instead of a gradual build up of tension and then open warfare (even though war maybe the final consequence in some cases).

This could then turn up a black market for our lovable rogues.

Maybe economic sabotage for a favour of a nation such as ... I don't know Ostland tainting the Iron from the Dwarves creating a market in their favour.

Maybe down the line the DM team can regulate prices of items in relation to on-going plots.

What do you all think?

Aiseth is planning an economy-system which would help. Depends on the team if they wish to accept the final product.

Really at the current moment it's more about -establishing- the bare minimums of economic reality. As server culture has progressed we're finally seeing city states openly war with one another. This raises a lot of problems that were not previously an issue. Now all of a sudden we need to know how Wiltun pays for it's ships, how many Everwatch Ostland can afford to equip, and what methods cities use to finance themselves so that economic attacks and sanctions can have a real effect.

There's also the issue of maintaining the setting and balance. I can't for instance allow the Ostland players to start churning out Marinsbane copies, because I have to consider, even if they could build such a thing, if Ostland can afford the materials, the crew, the upkeep costs, ect. We've reached a point where previously dedicated player effort alone was enough to do and build most things, now however we have to consider how these projects affect the greater balance and whether or not the cities truly have the resources to allow them.

Understanding the bare bones of a settlement's source of income is far more critical now than it has been in the past.

I approve of this effort. The economic bacground of how and when NPC settlements go to war and so on improve immersion for me greatly. Especially since I really appreciate the kinds of conflicts you can find in reality too, instead of the usual Hobbits vs. Sauron setup of fighting an absolute abstract source of evil.

Hah. I just finished a good chunk of this today: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=75368

I've contemplated that Winya Ravana probably doesn't import much in mass commercial quantities, since its population is relatively minuscule. The things it does bring in a lot of are likely things which are used up quickly, and take up a lot of space to cultivate, since the terrain isn't ideal for large-scale agriculture. So, probably the elves would get most of their flour and bread from outside, for example. They'd mostly sustain themselves from hunting and gathering and fishing, but there's just no place to keep a wheat field in the Nexus, ya know?

I mean, unless you want to go bare bones like the Caraigh druids and never use the roads, I would stand to agree with that remark, but the thing is that it doesn't matter what goods are coming in to any state. That goods are coming in at all is what is noted. One good comes in, means the market is actively participating and that the state is not self-sustaining year round. Be it needing extra non-elf soldiers to do a task, medicine from the Salandrans, Books from the Truimvir, An arcane lecture from a guest speaker. These are under the umbrella of goods and services. Commerce is not the idea of fiscal exchange, but of all exchange. Exchange of culture, society, whatever. Gold just measures the value of these interactions.

I would say, as little as Winya does import, they are still partners in the world of commerce. Mainly I take them for more of an export economy. At least their natural resources: the waters of the falls, elven made things, these are in high demand.

Given the IG appearance of nexus falls, I somehow get the impression that Winya has a ton of off-screen terrace orchards.

Aiseth! That an awesome piece of work you've done! Are the DM team going to support this and approve it?

Most likely not, it remains a thought experiment. It is a good thought experiment though, and certainly worth taking note of. However it's far too complex and has a number of other issues, it's just not something we could ever truly implement.

do the DM team have something in the works. Anything you can share ofcourse

Just another waste of my time, it seems.

What a waste

Ego680 wrote:

Most likely not, it remains a thought experiment. It is a good thought experiment though, and certainly worth taking note of. However it's far too complex and has a number of other issues, it's just not something we could ever truly implement.

This. We were very upfront from the beginning that we likely would not work with something of this nature, when you first started poking at the project.

That doesn't mean however that we won't draw notes or inspiration from what you wrote. We just won't be using it in the form presented.

I honestly feel more players should participate in the in game economy. I'm trying to play my hand in some larger scale stuff personally and it would be fun to see more people involved or competing for stuff.

In my observation, the job system (counterintuitively) makes it a lot harder for PCs to participate in the economy. If a character can spend a few hours clicking on plants and generate enough food to feast whole cities, the "economy" is basically a wholly mythical construct. We won't ever have a realistic economy until PCs actually have to put a speck of effort into creating trade goods.

The amount of goods a player could create is in no way shape or form even remotely capable of meeting the needs of a place like Cordor for even a day let alone indefinitely, not to worry.

Choosing the biggest city on the server as a counterexample does not function as a counterexample. A market gardener or a dairy farmer could easily spend a few hours producing enough food to keep several thousand people fed for a day. So, the Dale, or Winya, or Whartown, or Guldorand.

Liz wrote:

Choosing the biggest city on the server as a counterexample does not function as a counterexample. A market gardener or a dairy farmer could easily spend a few hours producing enough food to keep several thousand people fed for a day. So, the Dale, or Winya, or Whartown, or Guldorand.

Having a broken system doesn't mean a thing. If we are talking realistic here, what bobo has said is perfectly legit. It became quite apparent to us when we got 1500 refugees from Cordor.

Of course a broken sysyem is relevant. When one character can flood any market with any commodity on a few hours' notice, that commodity is worthless. Supply and demand, here. When supply of a commodity is effectively infinite, its value is effectively zero.

I keep waiting for someone to figure this out in character, and start crashing markets on purpose. Oh, that NPC merchant has a shipload full of produce that he was counting on selling? I think I'll spend two hours growing a thousand pounds of onions, beat him to market, and let's see how well he does, mwahahaha.

Guys I have learned about the most insane thing it is called role playing

My character grows, according to his inventory page, five hundred pounds of onions in an hour.

Obviously if I role play that, I'd be a horrible role player, because I'm gaming the system and doing silly things, kind of like people not being afraid of certain death because they OOCly know that they're coming back to life. It's bad role playing.

Just role play what seems reasonable or consistent. You're not having an actual effect on the economy of the server, which is all hear-say and fictitious at this point anyway, unless a DM looks and says "yes, you have had X effect on the economy due to your actions".

Liz is right, IMO. If there is a game system specifically designed to produce goods, and it says this is how much you produce in this time, why would we ignore it? The conclusion we should draw from that, though, is perhaps that the job system item weights need to be re-evaluted. I don't know what a unit of onions weighs, but I think recipes that use food produce are usually single items, like a pie or a dish? You'd hardly use five pounds of onions to make a pie, though. (One that is eaten in a single click, no less.) So clearly job system units should represent single items.

As to the Job System, we know it requires a massive update. A lot of the professions will likely be combined. The xp proffessions give need to be examined. Quite a few of the resources will need to be adjusted, including how they will be used for building endeavors. We do not have a shortage on feeback and suggestions regarding the Job System thanks to the community. We also have a collection of ideas from the design team.

The problem just is that the job system update would require a massive amount of time and scripting work, and higher priority projects pop up regularly enough that we never manage to really get to it. Projects like updating the questing system, as well as updating and adding new dungeons with interrresting scripted challenges and creatures will be seen to first for a very good reason.

Hence it might be smart for a temp rule to fix the quantity issue of the job system resources, until it could be seen to mechanically. Something like: "Job System resources are counted by unit, not by the weight of the resource in game."

Job system issues aside I think what the OP is asking is regarding information on the outputs of each settlement in terms of what the NPCs produce rather then the PCs and are traded with who. Which I think is very possible to find out, as my own PC has been doing, but would be in game through speaking to the right settlement leaders or DM controlled NPCs.

You can also go with WYSIWYG in regards to which resources in game that settlements control. For example Bendir has orchids, therefore I could hazard a guess that they produce fruits and could export them. As for who they go to that would require some investigation. Equally if Bendir doesn't have any metal ores around you could assume they must have to import their metals.

I'm not sure what would be general knowledge I regards to trade between settlements, that would have to be up to the purview of the DM team as some trade would be more public then others.

I'm still hung up on 5-onion pie. Mmmm.

I have a lot of thoughts on Amian economics lately, but in order to avoid TL;DR I'll just sum the up in two points:

1. The production that jobs allow is ridiculous - as stated above. For example (and just as an example, I'm not targeting anyone or any group in particular, mind you), the Shrine of Ellistraee was apparently able to donate enough food to Cordor to avoid a near famine. In a city of thousands. And the Shrine of Ellistraee has a couple of chickens, but not much else.

Production quantity seriously needs to be toned down.

2. Decay. Or rather the absence of such. For there to be a point to any economic system, there needs to be consumption. Supplies need to constantly dwindle, encouraging trade to replenish them. But equipment doesn't wear out or break. PC's don't need to consume food to rest. In effect, PC's are completely separate from the job economy - it's only relevant when there's XP to be had or when it allows you to contribute to a plot somehow.

I don't think equipment decay is going to happen, but all in all I think the job system would benefit from being more database-driven. Merchants start with a limited amount of goods to sell, but this can be replenished by PC's selling relevant goods to these merchants. Also, natural resources only have a limited number of charges per server reset. Rich ore deposits, dense forests, etc. could have a large number of "charges", while resource-poor areas would have considerably less.

All in all though, this system still works best if jobs focus on items that are useful for PC's - like potions, scrolls, bandages, weapons, armor, amulets, etc. And food, if you implement a need for food in order to rest. RP items like books and so generally aren't bought by PC's because they just don't have any benefit. Personally, though it's a bigger overhaul, I would also reduce the weight of "looted" gear (as in, make it less powerful/useful) in favor of items that are crafted and enchanted by PC's. DM's can still give out items during events, and boss items would still be relevant - but the majority of goods would need to be created by PC's. This system would allow for an entirely new field of RP conflict to emerge too, as control of certain resources or local economies comes into play. Especially for those rare resources that can be harvested for the top-tier equipment.

Moving this to GD.

The Invisible Hand: Amian Economics

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