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For some considerable time I have been pondering on how to breath life (hurr durr) into the faiths in Tarkuul. For the almost two years now that I have frequented the city with my main it has struck me that the reputation for the city seems to attract mostly arcanists and warriors. Seeing the tremendous upswing the Kelemvor thread got I wanted to poke the topic here in the GD part of the forum to get the typical opinion from other players who on occasion come to Tarkuul.

Grim my main is a Jergalite. Not only is he met with strange reactions when people mistake him for another wizard in the city but when they find out which god he worships even funnier reactions occur. Together with the rest of the players who put in tremendous amount of time I am happy to see some really cool things coming for Tarkuul in terms of the faiths present there.

For my own idea of what I want to achieve is a monastic order which incorporates the faiths present in the City that can work together and in contrast to the orders with paladins and such characters of a evil/neutral order could incorporate Monks, Assassins, Dirges and such classes to spread the word of the true Lord of Death for example

I am of course biased to my own characters faith and will with open arms give lore information to those who are interested in it.

A more direct question to those that have made upstart factions, or run factions based on faith I would be very happy if you could share some tips or tricks on how to keep things going

As a former highpriestess of Ultrinnan who nearly started a holy war...

Lots of ranks, reasons to bother your bosses regularly and cybersex! (1 of these 3 comments is a joke).

Pardon my ignorant question, maybe... but, which faiths *are* represented on Tarkuul? I don't ever go there IC, so I kind of don't have a clue. I think there's temples of Shar and Velsharoon, right?

Tarkuul is a wretched hive of scum and villainry.

Oh my bad Liz, and your questions is actually a good one in itself. I am notoriously bad at spreading word of my PCs doings and he lurks and skulks more than socialize

The prominent faiths would be (in no particular order):

My main focus is the Jergalite faith and as the EO takes an approach of their own to the faith of Kelemvor so do I stear the faith of my PC in Tarkuul. There is a temple in the plans for it and other things.
I have written up a small book on the faith which is ICly availabe in the City (http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=73013)

I would think that there are some totally nice cultists in Tarkuul as well, not just faiths with big temples.

Anyway, I like your idea, but can't offer much help except for opportunities of semi*-intellectual roleplay.
Ts

*) Up to 50%, no guarantees for actual value.

Silkelock wrote:

The prominent faiths would be (in no particular order):

Fixed that for you. :wink:

Re: the topic, I would actually be interested in seeing some more secular developments in Tarkuul. Most settlements have religion out the wazoo on the server. Tarkuul is (supposedly) a place dedicated to knowledge, innovation, and the unfettered search for power. That includes religion I suppose, but more obviously it suggests scholarly pursuits to me. In recent years, several PCs, including my own, have been trying to shift its image beyond just the “evil” settlement, just like recent events have begun to shift Cordor and Kohlingen from the image of the “neutral” and “good” settlements, respectively. Tarkuul is growing and will continue to grow, so long as we allow for and promote PCs to move in newer, interesting directions.

Is a scholar not entitled to the sweat of his own brow? “No!” says the man in Kohlingen, “it belongs to the poor.” “No!” says the man in Eternal Order, “it belongs to Lord Kelemvor.” “No!” says the man in Cordor, “it belongs the working class.” Tark rejected those answers; instead, Tark chose something different. Tark chose the impossible. Tark chose Tarkuul. A city where the necromancer would not fear the priest; where the arcanist would not be bound by petty morality. Where the great would not be constrained by the small!

...Basically, I'm saying we need to sink Tarkuul to the bottom of the sea and invent a way to give people temporary sorcerous powers. The rest I can take from there. >_>

Or maybe Beldor just thinks he's a religion. :wink:

I say go full tilt with the Jergal presence Grim. Where Velsharoon may be explicit knowledge, and Shar may be explicit power, Jergalites I presume are the reigns on the city's thirst. Teaching their flock the respect of death and its boundries with great dignity, or simply playing the accountant. Churches when strengthened don't always get along too! Who knows what disagreements may occur between a young priest and an old priest, but after talking to them both, I'm sure we'd have an answer.

I have been thinking the same thing Aiseth. The mantra "order in death" is much needed in Tarkuul and with the Jergal temple on its way I hope to make something interesting and fun of it.

Speaking from the NPC perspective, I can say that there are deeply rooted aspects of faith within the city, both past and present, and that they play a large part in the decisions of the NPCs present there. Take from that what you will

555444333 wrote:

As a former highpriestess of Ultrinnan who nearly started a holy war...

Lots of ranks, reasons to bother your bosses regularly and cybersex! (1 of these 3 comments is a joke).

Please no.

What about Asmodeus?

For a while the Asmodeans were pretty big, with the vast majority of the Living Guard being devil worshipers. Then for various reasons the vast majority of the Guard deserted for a while, along with the high clergy of Asmodeus. Which was a pity because I was looking forward to Maximilliane's regular Live Sacrifice and Barbeque Sundays. Right now the guard is still mostly Asmodean but we don't really have the numbers we used to. There's a couple of them in the Magisterium, but the MM is mostly Velsharooni mainly because it's the church with the most active clergy in the city and entirely necromancer focused.

As for the rest of the religion thing: I'm still on record as saying that I really hate the level of religion we have on this server, since it usually involves people shouting about how X god is always right because they're super powerful when secular powers fail. Is this honestly going to be about Grim shouting about how we should all bow down to Jergal? Or is this going to be more of an ecumenical movement to try and unite the disparate faiths together underneath a common philosophy?

"Velsharooni" sounds like undead pasta.

I'd like to get my character involved with some faith-based RP around Tarkuul si possible. Though you'll be able to tell the kind of angle he'll take if you read the thread about him in my signature. I'm having trouble finding people to develop the character with at the moment, so I'd love any opportunity to get stuck in no matter what happens.

Liz wrote:

"Velsharooni" sounds like undead pasta.

That's literally the IC reason why they call themselves Necrophants.

I wouldn't openly advertise the Jergalite influence in Tarkuul. Not only is it prone to metagame, it also quenches the joy out of revelation and intrigue in RP. Keep your stuff photosensitive, it's more interesting that way.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

I wouldn't openly advertise the Jergalite influence in Tarkuul. Not only is it prone to metagame, it also quenches the joy out of revelation and intrigue in RP. Keep your stuff photosensitive, it's more interesting that way.

We are talking about a PC that helped bury several thousand dead on Moribund openly without anyone looking twice

it is rather official then

The correct term for a worshipper of Velsharoon is Velsharan.

Silke, that's something a Jergalite would be expected to do by various other people. However, schemes involved with undeath is a more hushed subject, the revelation of which would render your character's rapport with any goodly being on Amia nearly impossible. Or I might've misunderstood your point there. Did I get the gist? I'm confused, I'll lie down now. Phooey.

EDIT: Actually, it's Velsharooniter, but Jimbo's a tart.

Indeed it is Opustus and thus he has done it. Regarding his ties to Tarkuul they are no secret. Black clothes and a skull mask with the title "Keeper of Tarkuul" is rather self explanatory

Murky:
No that is not the idea of all this to have Grim shout out such things in a zealous manner equal to the EO. Keep calm and keep playing

And no secular thoughts either. Faiths are a integral part of the world and they will continue to be

Just checking the interest for the matter. Send in the doomscribes!

Silkelock wrote:

A more direct question to those that have made upstart factions, or run factions based on faith I would be very happy if you could share some tips or tricks on how to keep things going

The biggest thing is to keep things interesting, which is the problem all faction leaders face at one point or another. There are people that can keep themselves motivated enough to keep playing their faith driven characters when others aren't around but so many others aren't like that. Just end up another faction that has most of their players hanging out in Cordor or Bendir Dale. This has always been tricky to me in terms of the more religious characters. You may find yourself just repeating the same things over and over again.

Keep things fresh, keep things interesting, we all want to come on here and have fun, idle banter isn't always fun. I can't give any thing more specific than that, just find a goal that makes the most sense for the faction and work from there. Starting a faction is easy keeping it going is the tricky part. Also don't make these goals completely reliant on DM oversight, I have found that these things are just a luxury, you don't need it it's just nice to have.

You've got a Velsharan and a Jergalite as the current two most active priests. You don't need a thread to tell people shit's gonna go down.

You silly Velsharans when will you learn.

Still as open as the City is now it has never been and some promoting is good. There are more things than Velsharans present

Murkoph wrote:

As for the rest of the religion thing: I'm still on record as saying that I really hate the level of religion we have on this server, since it usually involves people shouting about how X god is always right because they're super powerful when secular powers fail. Is this honestly going to be about Grim shouting about how we should all bow down to Jergal? Or is this going to be more of an ecumenical movement to try and unite the disparate faiths together underneath a common philosophy?

I am of an opposite mindset. I rather enjoy religious conflict and seeing clerics vie for souls (converts). Uniting faiths is not something I am in favour off, I rather see cooperating faiths then, a bit like the factions in Sigil do 'Yeah, you lot get part of the idea. Lets team up and double team those wicked heathens who don't get it at all instead of wasting energy on each other.'

If I saw a cleric/doompreacher shout out loudly in whatever settlement about all of the current messes are the fault of the clearly faithless all too secular governments (Kohlingen comes to mind, Winya would work in election time, other settlements no doubt as well) my dc wand would start to tingle if it was rp'ed consistantly with the setting.

I agree with Silkelock about being open. There is no reason why the church should hide in Tarkuul. Let the faithfull know where succor from oppressive forces can be had!

Thank you Hudson

Some mysterious notes did appear after the immense deaths in Cordor

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=73502

Working on transcribing what I can find and trying to build a working structure of it. Holy days and preqching is not in the faiths interest from what I can tell. They do get the job done however

Hudson wrote:

Murkoph wrote:

As for the rest of the religion thing: I'm still on record as saying that I really hate the level of religion we have on this server, since it usually involves people shouting about how X god is always right because they're super powerful when secular powers fail. Is this honestly going to be about Grim shouting about how we should all bow down to Jergal? Or is this going to be more of an ecumenical movement to try and unite the disparate faiths together underneath a common philosophy?

I am of an opposite mindset. I rather enjoy religious conflict and seeing clerics vie for souls (converts). Uniting faiths is not something I am in favour off, I rather see cooperating faiths then, a bit like the factions in Sigil do 'Yeah, you lot get part of the idea. Lets team up and double team those wicked heathens who don't get it at all instead of wasting energy on each other.'

If I saw a cleric/doompreacher shout out loudly in whatever settlement about all of the current messes are the fault of the clearly faithless all too secular governments (Kohlingen comes to mind, Winya would work in election time, other settlements no doubt as well) my dc wand would start to tingle if it was rp'ed consistantly with the setting.

I agree with Silkelock about being open. There is no reason why the church should hide in Tarkuul. Let the faithfull know where succor from oppressive forces can be had!

I can't quite find my original rant about religion on the server, but if I recall correctly it was mainly about my objection to how much of the server is dedicated to various gods rather than having anything along the lines of personal goals or wishes. If anything, I want more of the Sigil-esque factionalism because those factions are informed by people going 'okay, so we all had this awesome idea and we'll let in anyone who's willing to support it' rather than by going 'Bahamut hates you, so I hate you' or 'Shar hates you, so I hate you', or 'The Seldarine hates orcs, so we kill all the orcs'.

Mainly I actually found the narrow focus of most factions on this server which revolve around a specific deity with seemingly little variation to be a bit dishonest to the whole setting of the forgotten realms. Groups throughout most of the setting seem to include a wide variety of faiths and outlooks united under certain codes of conduct or various goals instead of 'We love our god of choice'. Outside our little island bubble you have big organizations and factions like the Lord's Alliance, Iron Throne, the Red Wizards of Thay, the Shadow Thieves and Cowled Wizards of Amn, all of which have their own unique identities, and while many have certain religious leanings they are be no means solely defined as 'A church of a deity'.

This isn't to say that I don't think that religious groups can't be interesting or operate this way, I just think it's very limiting if you start up a group and say 'we want to start a group dedicated to this one deity, if you don't like it then don't join'. My example of choice for the purpose of this thread is the Cult of the Dragon/Wearers of Purple. A cult who just loves the heck out of them dracoliches, but as far as I know has clerics of Bane, Cyric, Gargauth, Shar, Talona and Velsharoon under its banner. A large religious movement, which still is not defined by the limitations of a single deity or pantheon.

This is generally what I'd like to see out of this whole cult business, I'm wary of Silkelock there saying 'I'm pushing a cult of Jergal' because... Not everyone would like Jergal as their patron. I'd rather it come as a religion focused movement with a set leaning towards a specific player culture and set of ideologies which supports Jergal and the various other, darker religions of Tarkuul and beyond.

A very good read Murkoph. I think several churches banding together in a 'faction' can be quite good and quite normal (The Triad is an exemple) and that can be done quite easily on a local (settlement) setting too. But that's up to the players. Deities rarely enforce that upon the flock.

But Silk can push Jergal all he wants as well ofcourse and use whatever means he deems wise to convert peeps because that's what all religions want - converts.
There is a differance between 'Yo! Worship Jergal cause he is awesome!' and 'Y'all worship Jergal or get out of Tarkuul' - in the second case he'd probably end up being booted himself but I hope you catch my drift

It's even quite possible Cyric's followers in Tarkuul work with the church of Shar while the followers of Cyric in Wiltun wage war vehemently on them. Religeon isnt -that- uniform and interpretations vary. Helmites in Ahm may be hated by Tormites for Matzica and Helmites in Comyr may work closely with them to guard the Azoun dynasty.

In conclusion I think in the end this is mostly for the players to decide. I am happy to see Silk being so busy with his faith whether he goes with alliances or a push alone for more power.

Mainly I was just trying to say that was what I was concerned about, and Silkelock's already explained that it isn't about overt pushing of set religion or what have you. That's what I was concerned about, but it's probably not going to happen all that much. I also have to apologize for textwalling. Bad habit.

People can and will do whatever they like, and by no means does anyone have to conform to my tastes. By all means send in the doomscribes, but my poorly worded advice is to try to have a unified discourse about why you're doing what you're doing that doesn't boil down to 'I think my god's opinion is better than your god's opinion'. That way your religious movement is founded upon a logical reasoning for why you follow the gods you follow, and why you believe the things you believe. As such your own reasoning and foundations for why this faction exists will extend beyond simple zeal or blind adherence to one set school of thought, and will appeal to a wider audience amongst the player base.

Silkelock wrote:

Oh my bad Liz, and your questions is actually a good one in itself. I am notoriously bad at spreading word of my PCs doings and he lurks and skulks more than socialize

The prominent faiths would be (in no particular order):

My main focus is the Jergalite faith and as the EO takes an approach of their own to the faith of Kelemvor so do I stear the faith of my PC in Tarkuul. There is a temple in the plans for it and other things.
I have written up a small book on the faith which is ICly availabe in the City (http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=73013)

Ahrm, there is also a Shrine of Umberlee there. "Represented" is a strong term, but it's present!

AzureLuna wrote:

Ahrm, there is also a Shrine of Umberlee there. "Represented" is a strong term, but it's present!

Yes but is it prominent?

And yes I churches banding together can create something fun and unique but the LG and MM are doing a fine job as it is organizing different people under one and the same goal

I think we have precisely one Umberlee worshiper, and they don't turn up anymore. I think the one who worshiped the bitch queen most was... Lucius.

I should also point out that around the height of the 'Absolutely Everyone is Asmodean' thing, a lot of the actual clergy of Asmodeus and a few other clerics in the guard (I think we had a siamorphite and a cyricist, along with the aforementioned Umberlee cleric) were almost always a bit disgruntled that they didn't actually have any way to receive formal recognition within Tarkuul's various hierarchies when it came to being a religious figure. Maximilliane who was pretty much slated to be the largest figure in the devil worship scene in particular was almost constantly complaining that she had no real way to be formally acknowledged by the city's hierarchy without becoming a foot soldier or a researcher, neither of which was conducive the sort of roleplay she was after.

So in so much as the Guard and Magisterium both provide ways to unite people under common goals, we have demonstrably had a few problems when it came to allowing them to have a formally recognized position within the city which put them in a functional formal religious role.

Funny that I never received so much as a whisper of interest from these disgruntled people that were looking for a place. It's not like I know what opportunities might be available to them, or might be able to point them in the direction of a place to start carving their niche, or anything like that.

I understand where you are getting at Murky and also think it warrants a discussion elsewhere

I'll just say that religion is playing a big role in Tarkuul and that it's about to play an even bigger role. I have been working on the Church of Velsharoon for a long time now, and with the Unhallowing of the temple I cay say that we are finally making some progress. If you want a ticket on this train of RP, I'd advise you to buy it soon.

Frankly I think that Jergal has absolutely no place in a city such as Tarkuul (and I'm not even biased when I say this), but then again I do not know all the plans and the plots behind Glim's mastermind, so this shall be handled completely ICly. One is for sure. Religious organizations in Tarkuul are all but dormant, but there is no way of finding out how, without finding out IC.

There is a secret cult of the Triad on Tarkuul. They surreptitiously perform charitable acts and run an underground non-profit orphanage/soup kitchen.

Yossarin wrote:

There is a secret cult of the Triad on Tarkuul. They surreptitiously perform charitable acts and run an underground non-profit orphanage/soup kitchen.

Every time I go there they sneak items into my pockets when they bump into me, and I regularly get pulled into dark alleys where they give me money.

Mercedes wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

There is a secret cult of the Triad on Tarkuul. They surreptitiously perform charitable acts and run an underground non-profit orphanage/soup kitchen.

Every time I go there they sneak items into my pockets when they bump into me, and I regularly get pulled into dark alleys where they give me money.

The worst is when they pull a break-and-redecorate. It takes months to get the dust back in the carpets and the cobwebs back in place.

I just see religious groups in Tarkuul as a special interest group moztly. You want them on your side, but you don't want them in the plumbing. Integrate them in instead of making them a special institution because Tarkuul isn't gaining much from them being there otherwize. And religions setting up there need to ask

A) What can we get out of Tarkuul
and
B) What are we willing to give them toward that end

It doesn't really work any other way there. Tarkuul wants people who are of use, and does not give people who are just "there" any sort of real notice. Velsharoon's church are the only exception to what should motivate a religion toward setting up there because of their veneration of undeath and knowldge. Knowledge and power is actually a Velsharan mantra, but is often mistaken for Tarkuul's mantra because the church has been so prevelant there for so long.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Velsharoon's church are the only exception to what should motivate a religion toward setting up there because of their veneration of undeath and knowldge..

I am not sure I am following your reasoning here Bob

My opinion is that Velsharran faith is more focused on progression more so than conversion and numbers. They accept converts, but they rarely go far out of their way to take in followers. Anyone who doesn't willingly convert to Velsharoon submits themselves to obscurity and are not worthy of resources or time, because they've all 'chosen' to die. They would rather a small collective of the greatest minds rather than a large congregation of cannon fodder.

However that's my characters take on it, anyway. She's a priest!

Wouldn't Velsharoon want as many followers as possible, because that's where they draw their power from?

You might argue that five 20th-level followers are as effective in that regard as a hundred 1st-level followers. The math on that isn't really defined.

(Nor should it be.)

He's a freaking lich. Something tells me he's not going to have trouble with mortality like the other gods would.

666WaysToHell wrote:

He's a freaking lich. Something tells me he's not going to have trouble with mortality like the other gods would.

Gods don't have a trouble with mortality anyhow

Yeah I don't think the gods are so much worried about dying, but losing divinity. I think what Liz says brings up an interesting lore question I'll have to pose later if no one else does.

In my (albeit low) understanding of the gods, they require a lot of worship and devotion to rise and power and thus compete with the other gods / go about their schemes. Otherwise, they'll become weak and be killed or absorbed, or unable to support a lot of powerful followers. I remember reading somewhere that a god without a burgeoning church is less likely to grant crazy powers to devout followers because they simply don't have a lot to spare.

Gods power is, by decree of AO, tied to the amount of worshippers that sing their praises so every god who isn't mad wants as much as possible of them. No worshippers? -> astral plane. I doubt many if any mortals know the dark of this though.

I dont really want to go into math though and calculate followers by level hence I agree with Liz, that's best not to know. The moment gods need calculators to determine which is the more powerfull immersion curls up and dies a little.

Is it really a pure numbers game - the strength of a soul counts for nothing? :oops:

On the contrary, it counts a lot, if that stronger soul represents the deity well and brings several weaker souls to the chapel.

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