Actually my character found out about the 0 ASF armor less than halfway through leveling so that's a moot point. He also found out, randomly in the Market Hall, the location of the armor. Regardless to say a wizard wouldn't know 0 ASF armor exists is kind of silly ;p

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

That's a invalid argument seeing how in most settings, it doesn't exist. Not to mention I could say the IE ring exists when I decided to create my character.

I also wasn't only talking about you, I was talking about the tens of bards and other casters who choose to ignore this fact intentionally. When the KD was pulled from the ring, I had the same bad reaction. People build their characters around IC and OOC knowledge of item availability and game mechanics. If you're going to offer a rebuild for changing the shifter class "majorly" when they seem to work about as well as a character who randomly would have a feat removed from an item, then you better start thinking about how you're going to offer people with the IE ring, or ASF armor rebuilds too. It's an OOC "balance" change that is entirely unnecessary. Let it go.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

It doesn't matter how your mage learned about the existence of an item, Naiv. This whole thread is about the perceived OOC power of a certain attribute on an item. As Needled mentioned, 0 asf armor (and shields!) are way more powerful than Improved Evasion on two items in the game(one of which is a shifty situational piece).

Arguing in favor of 0asf and against IE is very hypocritical.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

I never once did that. I only used 0 ASF armor as an example of the fact that I did not build around freely available armor, per se, but rather the ability to craft such armor (aka via DCs). I did not ever state it's fine but IE is not. I was iterating my character's knowledge and experience.

There's really no further need to attempt to make me 'justify' what I said, and I won't be commenting on it anymore as I've already sufficiently explained it. This thread is about IE, regardless of what anyone else wants to shunt the discussion towards.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

When item balance is considered, you don't just do it one at a time.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Eh, as far as IE goes, I really can't understand the whining about its balance at all.

PvE endgame: reflex damage events come up in only one or two spots. None of which are really anything to worry about. Giant witches cast blade barrier (step back, idjut) and there's the VERY occasional place with static traps everybody learns and memorizes and circumvents with careful walking, healing, or other means (dmg immunities come to mind). IE isn't gamebreaking here at all, it's just convenient piece of mind that saves an epic the trouble of walking in baby steps, no biggie. If anything, the ring is ridiculously overvalued by the community.

PvP: Not even a consideration, really. No caster ever bothers using reflex save dmg spells in 3rd ed except newbies simply because they are the weakest and least effective ways to deal dmg, even if you remove IE and evasion entirely. You'll be long dead if your strategy is hurling fireballs or blade barriers at others. As for the "IE lets one ignore their reflex saves!" thought, no it doesn't. There are several devastating "save or screwed" reflex based effects that will get your butt killed if you fail the save. (Assassin widget, SoV, Great Thunderclap, Grease, etc, etc.)

I can't see the fuss of complaining about it especially given it's such a mediocre ability when examined in actual practice, rather than just "OMGNOES, IT A CLASS ABILITY." Lots of items mimic class features, grant feats, and the like. Should we remove all dmg resistance too? I mean you have to heavily invest in barb or DWD for that.

As far as immunities like freedom and such, I'm definitely against removing anything that's granted by a spell that can be tossed about by any random PC found on any given street corner. What's good for the goose is good for the gander IMO and any other argument in this thread I've seen rings hollow because despite what's been said, Mr. Mordy's Disunction _doesn't_ get tossed around in this module. Saying something _could_ be stripped is meaningless if nothing does the stripping in reality. Of course, you start tossing Mord's around the module and you probably make half your base quit anything that casts spells too. Heh.

I'm always weary of servers that power-creep down. Inevitably they usually end up as dull tavern-simulators where people get excited to find +2 junk or games where there's an over-powered class of oldbies with grandfathered gear pushing around newbies. There's plenty of those already out there, I play here because Amia isn't that (yet).

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Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)

Traps are changing.

I agree with this post.I'm still nowhere near convinced that changing IE is in the best interest of anyone on Amia.

Also @Glim - Is this information available somewhere?

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Not yet, the exact numbers are still in the process of being vetted by the tester team, but I can say that it will make all different trap types useful, not just Sonic/Frost and while you won't be able to "nest" traps anymore, they will be a potent tool in a sneak's arsenal should they choose to invest in the applicable skills.

As it's directly pertinent to this discussion though, I will say that 90% of the trap types will now call a Reflex save versus damage, so having Evasion or Improved Evasion will make quite an impact, especially in the case of Improved Evasion for non-Reflexers.

It should also be noted that as more and more of the existing dungeons are looked at, traps will not all be set in static positions. Some still will be, yes, but Disco has scripting in place for randomized trap placement in an area which has (as of yet) been underutilized. We'll be seeing more of that used in areas.

Here's my 2 bent pieces of copper:

Can I find/request an item that gives me a +2 AB & Damage buff, party-wide, useable 8 times per day? You laugh...

How about +5d6 Death Attack? No?

Well, I want Ambi/TWF/ITWF when wearing light armor. What do you mean, no?

HiPS, then...no, also?

If you can get one class ability (like IE) on an item without investing the levels, why not ANY class ability? It's a slippery slope.

I say 'If You Want It, Build For It'

There are items that grant Ambidexterity and Two-weapon Fighting. And they're not even epic.

There are items, a lot of items, that grant Freedom. By your logic, those should be removed because that's a hefty investment to get into Master Scout and take 5 levels in it.

There are items that grant 0% Arcane Spell Failure, something that requires 4 feats, 3 of which are epic.

Potions of Mindblank and Negative Energy Protection are available to everyone despite needing an investment of 9 wizard/sorcerer levels and 5 (or 7, I can't remember) cleric levels.

By this logic, all of those need to go. Arbitrarily picking Improved Evasion because someone got turned down for a DC item with it is silly.

For the record, I have no horse in this race. It's just silly how the forums flip upside down the second someone doesn't get their way.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

If I made a mage that wanted a high armor class, I would certainly pick Automagic Still Spell III. Not only for the freedom to select any piece of armor or shield I wanted, whenever, in any circumstances, with more mythal slots, but for the roleplay ability to cast without somatic components. Free get outta binds card, maybe? I agree with your other sentiments, though.

As for Improved Evasion, I am against removing this property from the epic ring. As others have explained throughout this topic, there are worse balance upsets that ought to be addressed before things like IE should be even glanced at. It's not cool, as someone eloquently put it, to retroactively fuck with people who have gained this fabled epic item through hard work and sacrifices.

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Come on...if someone has that ring they 1) got lucky & looted it or 2) bought it.

We're not talking about 'hard work & sacrifice' here; we're talking about a game.

Remove it, keep it on, whatever...I don't even know where to GET the damn thing. All I know is this: if you want to make SURE you have access to an ability in-game, build for it.