[OOC] No more house Faction forums! We've all seen it. Houses rise and fall, almost on a half-yearly basis or faster sometimes. People also loose interest and find interest in the underdark; The summary is that things fluctuate quite heavily down below.
How many houses have there been now? Ussen d'vhid Vilrath Xull d'vhacan My'afin D'Tsab Zau'tar TINNERAI!
Since 2007 our playerbase has also diminished quite greatly and thus i propose we no longer provide faction forums for Drow houses; But instead make one for the Vanguard (Melee magthere) and maybe the temple. Or something combined?
Take a look at Tarkuul; They have their office's of tarkuul for the living guard and The Magisterum mortis Or Cordor: They have one for their awesome guards.
The downsides i've encountered so far are: The underdark is bigger then nec'pereya. Then again ALL Underdark factions have been drow. Having a forum effectively dissaproves RP; The less who can interact with a forum post the less momentum it gets. Easily explained like this.
If a post is public, 40-50 people may read it. 5-6 responds. If a post is private, 5-10 people may read it. 1-2 responds.
Furthermore: The vanguard and the Temple are effectively like Winya's Armathora and the council. People come and go, but the actual faction stays albeit players rotate.
All I want is a subforum for Nec'perya so we're not taking over all of the UD forum and it's easier to manage, haha
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Joined: 22 Sep 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia [GMT +10]
I would prefer something like "Institutes of Nec'perya." My chief concern about a dedicated subforum is makings thing too secret-ish since I usually equate Nec'perya as a more militarised Winya.
A reduction of stickies would be cool too. Some of the ones we have aren't particularly useful or can be merged.
Joined: 11 Nov 2008 Location: In the land of liquid sunshine and coffee
House faction forums must still qualify under the rules for gaining a faction forum. Thus no house currently qualifies anyway...
For all the talk of Nec'perya helping expand RP in the underdark, it's the most isolated settlement ever. It will be a very long time before enough players band together to qualify for a forum, and if they do, they should get the perk of having something they've worked for. Or is RP towards a specific goal no longer a relevant thing to do in the underdark?
_________________ Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.
Joined: 29 Aug 2006 Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
The house forums are fine in my opinion most because from my own experience (with more than a few of them) what tends to be discussed in them is for the most part topics that would not be discussed in the public forums (aka sneaky sneaky plotting stuff... and other random stuff in the house itself) which tends to be a good thing in keeping activity up since it tends to increase RP in the house which inevitably spreads outside of it to the public in some form anyway.
As for a Nec subforum, it seems like a rather poor idea simply because about 95+ percent or so of the UD posts are and always have been about stuff going on in the drow PC city or about it or its residents, meaning you would basically wipe out a MASSIVE chunk of public UD posts. Also the fact that Nec is the drow PC city so you know... that fact of needing to have it open to drow players.
Also personally I wouldn't have an issue with the requirements for a drow house forum being made a bit easier to get as they tend to be good for keeping RP in the UD up in general. The main issue with the forums is that they are allowed to sit there far to long after a house's activity completely goes away or even after the house is gone completely.
I never said the Nec' subforum should be private. It would be a public subforum, because it would keep Nec' stuff in one area instead of swarming the UD forum with it.
Cause, like, I'm a bit of a neat freak when it come to forums, haha.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Joined: 29 Aug 2006 Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Ahhhh public is far better, although still against it just because having a subforum with WAY more tragic than the main forum itself is just weird. Plus "The Underdark" has really always just been "The PC drow city forum... and a couple random other things down here every now and then."
For a Nec sub forum there should be a bigger constant player base first, also with House faction forums, each faction should run strong for 6 months at least before even considering receiving forum space.
That is just my opinion and how I would do it.
_________________ "You are still willing to do these things? After all he is your father."
"And he is your Lord Husband. If there is a difference, please explain it to me...."
Joined: 26 May 2006 Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
Naivatkal wrote:
I never said the Nec' subforum should be private. It would be a public subforum, because it would keep Nec' stuff in one area instead of swarming the UD forum with it.
Cause, like, I'm a bit of a neat freak when it come to forums, haha.
I would advise from this in all honesty. The way things are at the moment is good.
Still could use some private forum for like surface raids and stuff the vanguard does. Like Cordor has a Subforum for their guard.
I had to delete a thread with 30+ Posts because of the Metagaming risk. House faction forums are kinda gay anyway - A vanguard forum would be for -all- drow, not just the privileged.
Problem with house forums is that people flock to the house with a forum - And the other houses are neglected. If we have a forum for the vanguard, which is much more permanent, we'd perhaps have people NOT give up their characters when a house falls into inactivity or is destroyed
Joined: 11 Nov 2008 Location: In the land of liquid sunshine and coffee
Wait...
You want to get rid of private forums for one group, but at the same time want a private forum for your own group? Again, get enough people active in the Vanguard and request a forum under the existing rules. Or are we now getting ahead of ourselves and requesting special treatment already?
The simple fact is that players flock to where the action is. If a house gets enough players to form it's own private forum, that's where the action is. It should be encouraged, and the lengthy RP leading up to it should be interesting as well.
_________________ Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.
Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
Maybe i wasn't entirely specific - I reason that the vanguard (The actual Militia of Nec'pereya) has more endurance and lasts longer then a house. It also incorporates MORE players - A house is often rather small while the Magthere / Sorcerer (Here combined into the vanguard) incorporates all houses and all players.
Joined: 29 Aug 2006 Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
The only big issue with trying to make something like that a faction is that while it might often act or seem like a single thing it is almost always secondary to a house/faction of the characters in it (in terms of "loyalty" for lack of a better word). Its basically a fairly loosely bound faction made up of more tightly bound factions and individuals. Further complicating it is that fact that you would have large parts of smaller factions within the larger faction and yet the leaders of those smaller factions tend to have more power in IC terms than the larger one because how drow society works.
A thought crosses my mind (based on my experience modding a couple drow faction sub forums) though of having a "Nec Raiding" type forum that would basically only be used for raid plans and the like and would basically be a private forum with one (or a couple) mods for it that basically added and then removed people from the sub forum based on whether their character was involved in the current rain being planned at the time. Of course this would require a active moderator but it really would probably be the most effective way to keep those things the most secret as well as having a private forum that minimally effected activity in the main UD forum.
Joined: 11 Nov 2008 Location: In the land of liquid sunshine and coffee
Very_Svensk wrote:
Maybe i wasn't entirely specific - I reason that the vanguard (The actual Militia of Nec'pereya) has more endurance and lasts longer then a house. It also incorporates MORE players - A house is often rather small while the Magthere / Sorcerer (Here combined into the vanguard) incorporates all houses and all players.
Get it?
No, not really since the Cordor guard RP'd for years to get their forum. I understand your frustration and impatience, and it's a good idea. However, the RP with the Vanguard needs to gain some seasoning, not just the three players who are active with it now. As much as it pains my ADHD to do so, patience if required, let it happen as it happens.
_________________ Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.
Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Location: [st]Ultrinnan[/st] [st]Edonil[/st] Nec'perya
if the vanguard has all houses and all players, it serves absolutely no purpose getting its own forum.
houses, due to their nature, should get their own if they have the necessary activity and population. Houses scheme and plot and stab other houses in the back for rank, and thats just something that can not be done on a public forum.
_________________ Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare' Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words
Joined: 26 May 2006 Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
Nec'perya has steered away quite significantly from the inter-house politics since its inception, which is what makes it so different from its predecessors: it looks more to the affairs going on around it rather then within it. There's a few reasons for this change:
* Necessity. If left to its own devices, Nec'perya will literally wither. It needs contact with the outside world to function (food, slaves, resources etc)
* The lack of houses. There has never been more then 1 or 2 active houses at any one time in Nec'perya, preventing the politics from aggressively dominating the setting. And,
* A shift in player interests. Not all, but many of the current Drow players are more interested in what's going on around their settlement, making the Vanguard a more inviting prospect then the inter-politics of houses. This is partly due to the points mentioned above, but also due to the initiatives of players as seen on the forums and in game.
I'm not saying this is a permanent change: the house politics may eventually take over and Nec may become like its predecessors in how it operates... but it is something to consider going forward. At this moment in time, Nec'perya is a very different beast to the likes of Edonil and even Ultrinnan before it: what worked in the past may not be best practice so it is worth considering other options.
Joined: 29 Aug 2006 Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
I'm pretty sure part of the lack of a lot of house political interaction wasn't due to a drastic change of player interest but rather due to Nec having been on a nearly inaccessible island that was basically under the control of one or two houses already there. Most houses on Amia have traditionally come from new entrants to the city not just by characters already within the city fracturing into different houses.
Also the "building the new city" phase has usually been a more quiet time for interhouse politics due to having more pressing matters of having to build something worth fighting over before actually fighting over it, the main difference with Nec being that it has been a process that has been drawn out a fair bit longer than the other cities making this phase last longer.
Also drow tend to be chaotic opportunistic bastards who would (very) happily sell their mother for more power although still also working for the power of all drow over other races. And its those sort of interactions that tend to give the most drow like feeling. You need a balance between working together and screwing each other over.
Joined: 26 May 2006 Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
With Drow there's always politics (and inevitably headaches) involved where the balance is important. You're 100% correct about that Equaliser and I won't ever dispute that.
From the vibe I'm getting though, the initiatives and plans from the players are more focused on branching out then they are at hording themselves in. To put it simply, they want interaction and communication with the rest of the server in some form. This differs greatly from Ultrinnan and Edonil where the majority of its ruling caste always wanted the complete opposite.
Personally I think this is a good thing (which opinions may vary) because, in time, it will add a dynamic which Edonil's focus on inter-house politics could never offer: the ability to compete against other cities and carve a place in the greater picture of the server.
But, as I said... things can change very suddenly. It might just be the rebuild phase as you described, or it could be that the players truly desire something more then inter-house politics... who knows. I'm just putting forward that its worth considering trying something new, rather then sticking to what was always so.
Joined: 29 Aug 2006 Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Don't get me wrong I was not a big fan of Edonil and tried on several occasions to try to expand things out more RP wise, although since I usually just play male drow it made that harder even for high ranked characters of mine.
I do think that Ultrinnan though had (at times) a very good balance between drow working together and being a threat to surfacers and cutting each others throats... And throwing parties (really not enough of those in the past few years).
I would ideally like to see the drow achieve a nice balance of working with (Aka exploiting) other races and settlements, working with each other in their new city but also have room to scheme and backstab each other within the city without making everything go to shit. One of my big issues with Edonil and one that has carried on somewhat even now is a seemingly unshakable sentiment among drow players/characters of needing to focus on defense and protecting the city from bad stuff, you need to remember that you are Drow you ARE the bad stuff.
Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
I think the vanguard (Necs militia) will work much better togethe if they get a forum. Considering it has about 7-8 active players it meets the requirements of a faction.
A faction easily joined. A faction that keeps nec together A faction that creates an us vs them feel A faction that persist
Having house forums and factions is great; but since there's not so many drow/underdark players we could technically only have 1 house forum at all times; we simply do not have enough players.
What tend to happen when a house gets a faction forum? We'll first of all they have the numbers; thus they will start to dominate drow rp People flock to that house Rivals are quickly eleminated and/or expelled and/or excluded
What happens when a house leader ceases to play? Many times the house die (tagnik'zur) Many times it implodes
Having a vanguard forum let's people get into drow rp faster. Essentially, in all woven society, houses send Their skilled warriors and mages to the magthere/sorcere (in our case combined into the vanguard) to make a name for themselves and honour their house.
Having a vanguard forum makes sense iC Makes coordination easier iC/oocly Us vs them feeling Can possibly unite the drow more Promotes backstabbing to get higher into the structure
Why can't we have faction forums and vanguard forums too?
The thing I've noticed is that a lot of the postings for the vanguard is sensitive information, hence the notion for wanting a forum. What you aren't considering is that even if you got a locked Vanguard forum, the priestesses and probably your vanguard leader would still tell you not to leave sensitive information in public.
Quote:
houses, due to their nature, should get their own if they have the necessary activity and population. Houses scheme and plot and stab other houses in the back for rank, and thats just something that can not be done on a public forum.
I agree with this post mostly, especially as a developing faction it would be nice to have a staging ground to (potentially) create more opportunities.
I'm not sure the "lack" of houses really mean that the current houses that are there can't get a forum. I'd rather like Ussen d'Vhid to have a forum.
Sensitive information is pretty much the key. Like Svensk said before he had to completely remove the raid planning thread because that can easily be seen and metagamed. For drow, secrecy is a huge thing, and when 90% of the server sticks to the Surface.... it sucks not being able to conveniently share information IC without others seeing it. I honestly don't totally like the idea of locked subforums but they are a necessity in cases where sensitive information needs to be kept private.
Perhaps there could be a stipulation that House forums are only for sensitive things? If a House's members cluster into the House forum only it could be locked for x number of days to get the point across, or something. Certainly not ideal to try to police it, but it's easy to notice when people are not talking on the main forum, at least.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
Yeah. I always propagated that everything should be done in the open to promote role play and get people interested. It was a real blow to my cause when I learned people metagames the information in that thread.
But okay! Let's keep house faction forums if they qualify for it - but an everybody agree that we need a vanguard forum? (Naturally priestesses be invited since they overlook EVERYTHING in drow society)
Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Location: [st]Ultrinnan[/st] [st]Edonil[/st] Nec'perya
im torn
one one hand, a vanguard forum would include roughly 90% of nec's population, on the other it might block out people who are interested. I guess I support it, but only for sensitive documents and such. We want to be as open as possible, oocly, to invite newcommers in for roleplay while still being secretive. Thats the problem with the UD, everything needs to be secret, but if its all secret nobody knows whats up and can't get involved.
_________________ Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare' Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words
Oh yeah, forgot to mention that. Vanguard would have the same restriction, it'd be for sensitive info only. So there would still be (in my mind) public Vanguard threads for day to day stuff, but things could link to the private threads so that those that have the access can click and go see them. No major RPing and stuff in there, just info-sharing
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
Yeah honestly I'm with zanthair on this - Transparency always promotes more rp(aka people get interested and join in; like what happened to the boats and construction and raid planning. People even made characters to join(gremin))
On the other hand I was really bummed out by the meta gaming pricks who made me delete the topic...
Joined: 11 Nov 2008 Location: In the land of liquid sunshine and coffee
Zanthair wrote:
Thats the problem with the UD, everything needs to be secret, but if its all secret nobody knows whats up and can't get involved.
This.
The forums are to let people know there's something going on and a clue on how to get involved or put out an interesting story that is enjoyable and gives others ideas for enhancing their own RP in game or in stories of their own.
The fact that most people never, and I mean never actually communicate directly via PM is why a secret forum is needed to begin with. All of my own plots are done this way, IC and OOC'ly, it's why no one knows what secrets I'm keeping. If you don't want everyone knowing what you're planning, send a PM to those who should know. If you want involvement from the community and spur RP, keep it public. It's really that simple.
It's neat to be in a clique, but do we need even more of those? If you make a private group, it can only interfere with players who might otherwise wish to get involved in some way. So you can't have your clique and then complain about players not RP'ing in the UD. Just saying.
_________________ Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.
PMs are good and all, but with the amount of Vanguard info out there's it's hard to consider that entirely feasible especially given there's a message and custom folder cap. Hell I do a lot via PMs as Zrae and I have to flush out my inbox every other month it seems like, though I can filter some stuff out because it's not necessary for her to keep it (like Vanguard stuff that the Vanguard threads keep copies of), and a lot of the Temple stuff I can hang on to because there's not a lot of that. There's just a limit to what you can do via PMs. And mass-mailing five or more people is tedious, not to mention it can be harder to keep track of PMs as opposed to a thread.
I also totally advocate public Vanguard threads to keep people interested, just having sensitive stuff (like raid planning) kept private.
Just my two cents.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
I want to include. I love to include... Then at the same time I want people to include me and not just take from me. The metagame that happened with the surface raid have made me defensive.
Anyway. Having a sub forum for the vanguard may probably reduce our chance of including new players. But can also help us organise and push things forward.
What it comes down to in the end is if we can have a Vanguard forum for private into while maintaining the public Vanguard threads. I'm fairly certain we can trust the players to keep most things public and inclusive, using the Vanguard private forum just for things that not every forum user should see.
But, I also believe that pigs can fly (from my cannon).
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Location: [st]Ultrinnan[/st] [st]Edonil[/st] Nec'perya
Duskryn wrote:
Or if players really wanted to they could make their own faction website.
this has been discussed in the past and the DM staff really frowned upon it because they have no oversight.
We even offered to make the current drow dms mods of the group and they said no, nothing done on a third party website would count as valid rp.
this was years ago though, things might have changed. (i think it was for the red hand?)
_________________ Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare' Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words
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