It happens to see, at the Mimic/Pirate boss, the Pirate spawned and the Mimic killed. I guess (well, actually i am sure as i saw it at least two times) it is because people kill the Mimic for the drop and leave the "tought" pirate there for other players.
Leaving out the case of someone who had to flee from the boss, i am wondering if it is "against the rule" or simply "unfair".
Unfair. I run in there all the time to just find just the pirate.
But, I do it all the time, too. I don't have a chain of high level spells to throw at him and end it quickly. I have to slowly hack him to death. And often I don't feel like sitting there another two minutes to kill him off. I get what I came there for, and I get the hell out. I'm not saving the world from evil. I am just taking it's stuff.
My advice is, don't go in there un-invis'd, just in case the pirate's already spawned by someone else. If he's there, and there's no chest just, just run back out. You don't have to sit there and kill him if you don't want to.
But sometimes luck is on your side, and someone has died and left both the chest and the pirate for you to kill. Free loot spawn. So, take the good with the bad. Run in hasted and pre-buffed, and invis'd, and don't count on knowing that he won't spawn when you enter, but only when you move. If it's just the pirate, turn back around and leave.
I actually do not go to pirate often but, when i do, I kill both of them all the time, even if it requires more time.
I would like to suggest to Devs (if possible) to move the epic drop to the pirate, so the problem will be probably fixed.
Why not both? Like Fire Giants bosses?
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The Fire Giant queen doesn't drop epic loot, just the King. In regards to the Pirate/Chest, we already moved the Epic loot from the Pirate to the Chest because the Pirate was always easier to kill (and still is). Different builds find one or the other easier, but overall, the Pirate is less hassle for most people.
The Fire Giant queen doesn't drop epic loot, just the King. In regards to the Pirate/Chest, we already moved the Epic loot from the Pirate to the Chest because the Pirate was always easier to kill (and still is). Different builds find one or the other easier, but overall, the Pirate is less hassle for most people.
ok. if i understood, it is allowed by server rules to kill only the chest, isn't it?
The Fire Giant queen doesn't drop epic loot, just the King.
My life is a lie.
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"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
Funny thing: I used to think the epic drop WAS only on the pirate, so I'd always kill him first.
I don't really mind killing the pirate, and if I'm in a group I do so. But, alone, the longer you're there, the more you risk an accident occurring. You miss the three second warning your mind-blank is running out, you get feared, and you're perma-screwed. You become disengaged due to misclick and get death-pulsed. You get dev-crit, and stand there like a fool while he obliterates you. And while any of these things happening during a well-executed attack are rare, they DO happen. And given the amount of gold I carry around, I really don't feel like loosing a million on a respawn just because I felt a temporary sense of misguided and unnecessary altruism to help out players who don't go in prepared, and who feel the need to take on the pirate when they should just be running.
Of course, having it on just the pirate would only reverse the issue. People would kill the pirate, and then leave. Much easier to leave, as well. No special precautions are required when you disengage the chest. If the goal is to force people to kill both of them, you could have pirate drop a key, and loot chest leave behind an actual locked chest when it dies. Then you have to use the key on the chest. Same thing could be done in pretty much every dungeon to keep people from sneaking past the mobs and assassinating the bosses. But, I guess people have to decide if that's really how they want it to work. I'm all for keeping things as they are, because it's easier for me, and I have no desire to add additional tedium to a process that can already be a little irksome.
I'd like to suggest we give them both a 5% epic loot drop, because, hey, while we're making suggestions, might as well If the goal is to make sure people kill them both, that is a really easy and guaranteed way to do it.
(BTW, I don't think the Fire Giant queen drops any epic loot. I have never once seen her do it, and I've probably killed her a thousand times. You generally just kill her because she's there, it's not terribly hard or time consuming, and generally by the time you get around to her she's blown through most of her spells)
(BTW2, DAMN! OK, so the epic drop DID used to be on the pirate. I thought I had just misremembered it when I returned after several years gone, and people were telling me it was on the loot.)
Last edited by Kenneth on Mon, Jan 27 2014, 10:59 AM, edited 1 time in total.
I would personally suggest to change the drop from semi-epic creatures to yellow items or something interesting at least, while still not that awesome, but just enough to encourage players to actually have a reason to smack for good the pirate (and the queen and variants I may be missing)
Someone (Mosh?) recently suggested that the one with the drop chance couldn't be killed before killing the partner. That would be ideal, if feasible.
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I'd like to suggest we give them both a 5% epic loot drop, because, hey, while we're making suggestions, might as well If the goal is to make sure people kill them both, that is a really easy and guaranteed way to do it.
That will cause that boss to be perma-camped by group of players (its 2 boss killing with one teleport and a very very short run with no fights).
Ice wrote:
I would personally suggest to change the drop from semi-epic creatures to yellow items or something interesting at least, while still not that awesome, but just enough to encourage players to actually have a reason to smack for good the pirate (and the queen and variants I may be missing)
Don't think this will work. People go there only for epic loots, a few more golds do not push towards fighting another boss.
IronAngel wrote:
Someone (Mosh?) recently suggested that the one with the drop chance couldn't be killed before killing the partner. That would be ideal, if feasible.
Even if i am a "summon-based" mage, and this fix could make me almost impossible to kill this boss (you cannot force your summons to attack a specific target and, with no open space in the ship, it is even hard to make them disengage end re-engare hoping they will switch target), i have to say you got a good point.
As we are talking about "opinions", imho the best way to deal with the thing would be to just say OOC you are forced to kill both. There will be players who anyway will kill just one of them, but at least you could "friendly-report" them and this should work as a good deterrent for most.
We should always strive to do with as few OOC rules as possible. If this is a real problem rather than just an inconvenience, there should be a mechanical solution. I think we'll live until such can be implemented, though.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Someone (Mosh?) recently suggested that the one with the drop chance couldn't be killed before killing the partner. That would be ideal, if feasible.
That was me :3 Something like the Chest would not go below 1 HP is Pirate was alive still. Still totally for it. It would sorta make teaming up required.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
There's no real problem here. If you come across the Pirate without The Loot, then it means the player before you spawned it. You don't waste your spawn. Whether the Pirate was killed or not, you will still have to wait 15 minutes until you can do your thing. The Loot is very hard to kill for some characters, easy for others. The Pirate is very hard to kill for some characters, easy for others. Makes complete sense for The Loot to contain the epic drop if there is one. Also makes complete sense for someone to go in there and smash up The Loot without killing the Pirate if he's too hard to kill. It's all within the rules, it's all fair, everyone has just as good of a chance at the loot as everyone else.
That's beside the point, Gobbs. The problem is that it's designed to be a two-monster encounter. If players can ignore the other half of the encounter, if it even makes sense for them to do so, it isn't working as intended. I agree there's nothing ufair or against the rules about leaving the other, nor should there be. If it's profitable, it makes sense IC. So if we want it to work as intended, we simply have to make it unprofitable or impossible to leave one or the other alive.
I've seen the thing once, I think, so I don't care one way or the other myself. But if there's no point in killing the other half of a spawn, why is it there to begin with?
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Pretty much what Iron said. We either replace them with one boss or just link them together better. Linking them is (sort of) akin to the Phane, where we are trying to push towards more cooperative boss running.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
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The original idea that never happened/got lost in translation after I first changed the Loot to the primary boss was for the Loot to be set to Plot and Immortal until the Pirate had been killed. That idea is still on the table and I've even got more surprises in store for that particular spawn point given the flexibility of it. Stay as they say tuned.
_________________ I play: Gage le Gris Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
I reserve the right to continue being a dick in character, even if it inconveniences you mechanically. That said, I always kill the pirate, just because I can.
I don't think he's talking about IC dick moves, because this is more of an OOC one given the nature of spawning/respawning mechanics (and I've heard some people say that the boss spawn bugs out for people who have to take out the pirate on its own and then come back).
I come down on the other side on this one. Some builds can tackle the loot but spend an hour fighting the pirate. Also, if the pirate is there and the loot isn't, you're not losing a chance at finding epic loot. Fighting bosses is about preparation after all, and preparing for the chance that the pirate will be there and ready is just part of that process.
I think people get bent out of shape because they expect boss hunting to go smoothly and predictably, and are likely semi-frustrated from failed loot rolls, so things like this get blown out of proportion. I can sympathize with both, but it distorts the seriousness of the problem in my opinion.
I think people get bent out of shape because they expect boss hunting to go smoothly and predictably, and are likely semi-frustrated from failed loot rolls, so things like this get blown out of proportion. I can sympathize with both, but it distorts the seriousness of the problem in my opinion.
There's some of that, I bet, but with this spawn it's supposed to be a both or nothing deal (see Mosh's post), so it's at least valid. I've only had one instance where the pirate was there already and it was when some mage had Bigby'ed it and killed the chest. Not a huge deal to me, nut I don't boss hunt a lot.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
I might be in agreement, though from another angle. A lot of people treat hunting as an OOC affair altogether, hence inconveniencing someone's boss race could be considered an OOC dick move. I however have never encountered the bug Serbiris described, and did not know one existed. I have wrecked the pirate after the mimic had been slain by someone else, and both monsters spawned for me normally some time later.
All this said, I support the idea of having to bust the pirate before the box becomes breakable. Maybe as a compromise, make the mimic crawl out of hiding only after its guardian has been slain? I'm sure that would be easyish to script.
The loot sits there all by itself and it attacks you when you open it sitting there peacefully. It is only trying to punish you for being a greedy sonofabitch. No hard feelings. You slay the mighty biting chest.
Oh no! The skeletal crew who was supposed to guard it was off doing drunken zombie guard stuff, then swarm in from all corners to hopefully kill the badguys who tried to take their bosses ill-begotten treasure. I mean after all, they get a share of the booty too after all.
In another room in a place you can never ever ever get too the pirate notices this while he is in his trophy room. He teleports in if you slay the undead crew the pirate chief himself comes out to kill you for killing his lackeys. I mean for fuck-sake this happens all the time and now he has to go and re-animate them.
They can't be trusted so he cleans his own trophies. Sometimes you are able to kill his minions when he is actively cleaning a trophy so he carries it on his person when he comes to whoop that ass (roll a 5/100 of course)
The box is the same strength as it is now. The minions are 5-6 who come in from all sides. They are as strong as any double spawn in the manor. Just sheer melee goon types, to get those who's 1 off buffs like divine shield or might are running low after pwning the box. They come in instant as the box falls to give less latency and planning. They are undead moderate hp, high ab, good damage, with weapon effects like level drain, curse, stun, sleep. And so forth. And there is no visual different between them so you don't know which is which.
The pirate is from now on hasted.
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The Peacock wrote:
[GreatPigeon] is better than me.
Uncle-Opustus wrote:
Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
Just because the rules have changed in IA doesn't mean that GD is going to be the new grandstand forum. Posts like Pige's with suggestions, Antoniius' with question about what may or may not be a bug or unintended effect, etc. are fine of course. Arguing about whether something's a dick move or not, isn't.
An OOC rule here isn't what's needed, a mechanical change is, as some have pointed out. That's what we'll be looking at.
My own idea was that the door locks when you spawn them (haunted) and only opens when both are killed.
This idea however is flawed in the point that people who accidentally go in might have a problem. But I am a mean person and think no risk no fun.
I do like some of the other presented ideas.
I was once going to suggest this a long time ago when the issue was raised the first time around, but opted not to for the very same reason! I could just hear the cries of "sadist".
Can we double up my above suggestion and the locked doors? And can we have tables and wardrobes and clocks and teapots attack you as well...
Seriously the whole enchanted furniture thing to go with the chest sends a shiver up my spine.
Thanks Disney!
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The Peacock wrote:
[GreatPigeon] is better than me.
Uncle-Opustus wrote:
Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Location: Down South and Bent Edge
Yossarin wrote:
Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
My own idea was that the door locks when you spawn them (haunted) and only opens when both are killed.
This idea however is flawed in the point that people who accidentally go in might have a problem. But I am a mean person and think no risk no fun.
I do like some of the other presented ideas.
I was once going to suggest this a long time ago when the issue was raised the first time around, but opted not to for the very same reason! I could just hear the cries of "sadist".
Plot and Immortal on the loot achieves the same outcome without the sadist feature.
When I did my update the loot had Mords on hit, someone either reverted to an older module or removed the Mords on hit.
_________________ I play: Gage le Gris Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
I was wondering what happened to that. It was the reason why initially I could not run that boss because without buffs I'm a kitten, but then when it stopped doing that I had an easier time. I assume it was an intentional choice, otherwise I'd have mentioned it.
Just because the rules have changed in IA doesn't mean that GD is going to be the new grandstand forum. Posts like Pige's with suggestions, Antoniius' with question about what may or may not be a bug or unintended effect, etc. are fine of course. Arguing about whether something's a dick move or not, isn't.
An OOC rule here isn't what's needed, a mechanical change is, as some have pointed out. That's what we'll be looking at.
Instead of changing everything that people figure out how to circumvent, try addressing the real issue: Server culture. Make people feel bad for gaming the system and you'll eventually see less work on fixing issues like this.
I still stand by my comment. It is a dick move.
_________________ Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
Everytime I've gone in there and found just the Pirate, I've killed it. Everytime I've done that, it uses up *my* boss spawn for the boss. It's happened far too often for my liking, I'm tempted to just whack anybody I see leaving the damned thing behind.
Have the door lock, it's a perfectly "ghostly" thing to do.
And to Vensk, they respawn for the same reasons we do, or do you like the idea of permadeath? Hah.
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(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)
I don't like the idea of it locking because someone unaware could click on it and die horribly without being able to escape.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Just because the rules have changed in IA doesn't mean that GD is going to be the new grandstand forum. Posts like Pige's with suggestions, Antoniius' with question about what may or may not be a bug or unintended effect, etc. are fine of course. Arguing about whether something's a dick move or not, isn't.
An OOC rule here isn't what's needed, a mechanical change is, as some have pointed out. That's what we'll be looking at.
Instead of changing everything that people figure out how to circumvent, try addressing the real issue: Server culture. Make people feel bad for gaming the system and you'll eventually see less work on fixing issues like this.
I still stand by my comment. It is a dick move.
My focus here is the mechanics of the module, I leave it to others to worry about the server culture these days. One of the tools that will better allow me to efficiently work on the module however, is keeping suggestions like these somewhat orderly, on topic, and constructive. Your comment may be valid, but it is not constructive, so this is not the place for it.
What if these things were discussed here in terms of all aspects, then after full discussion, re-posted to IA with summary? I get what you're saying, but I found Derk's messages helpful and constructive to general discussion, and I didn't even agree with them.
We're all willing to keep things streamlined in IA for you! But I feel the kind of discussion in this thread is helpful and appropriate. Just my opinion.
That, I would be more or less fine with. I don't want to become a "forum tyrant", believe me. But I also don't want to see GD turn into the place where those who don't feel like abiding by the new IA rules, come to post instead. That's my only concern here.
I'll leave it at that and leave this thread be now and wait to see if anything crops up in IA. I'm not here to moderate GD.
I wrote a post about that some time ago where I basically called this the same as Derk is calling it. Finding a mechanics to solve the problem, however, seems like a good way to go, since the other option of addressing the culture issue is gonna be near impossible (-sadly-)
So far, the following ideas have been suggested - this is what I think about them.
1) Addressing the culture
Can't help with that, too much work for very shaky results
2) Adding an ooc rule
Possible, but apparantly not liked. Will also add work to the dms with more reports, therefore not ideal.
3) The door locks behind you and you can't get out until you kill both bosses
Good idea, but you run into the problem of having people locked in while others outside aren't able to come in. What happens if someone gets, get killed or troll the next guy and the door is forever locked? It would require quite a lot of scripting to solve all the possible issues this could create, therefore this "simple" solution is not that ideal.
4) You kill one, the other spawns
Also a good idea, very easy on the scripting (I think), but then you lose the "two bosses against you" feel that this boss is intended to have.
5) Immortal chest until the pirate is slain
Very good idea, and the scripting of the orc chief on Amia A could probably be salvaged with the altar needing to be destroyed replaced by the pirate, and the loot being set as the "orc shaman". Very efficient, easy on the scripting, a potent solution to fix the "ooc dicking" of leaving one behind.
---
My personal solution would be:
6) The loot drops "Key 1" and the pirate drops "Key 2". When you have both, you can open up the locked door, and it teleports you out of the ship, rolls a 1d100 to get your epic drop chance, and tells you that you explored the rest of the ship in search of treasures and might have or might not have found something. I am not developper, but it feels to me like this requires very little scripting, and would be a very easy permanent fix to the problem.
5 and 6 are ideal easy solutions I believe.. thoughts?
6) The loot drops "Key 1" and the pirate drops "Key 2". When you have both, you can open up the locked door, and it teleports you out of the ship, rolls a 1d100 to get your epic drop chance, and tells you that you explored the rest of the ship in search of treasures and might have or might not have found something. I am not developper, but it feels to me like this requires very little scripting, and would be a very easy permanent fix to the problem.
5 and 6 are ideal easy solutions I believe.. thoughts?
What happens when everyone has key 1 and key 2?
_________________ Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder
Don't forget the clean up mobs after yourself rule that quite a few people without naming names seem to forget.
Just checked the rules and could not find it. Citation needed.
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This rule is outdated since there is a timer on mobs. So it's no longer a rule to clear mobs.
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If the goal is to make sure people kill them both, that is a really easy and guaranteed way to do it. 
