AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Naivatkal wrote:

Or tone down things from the PC side so we can tone down the NPCs as well. Because god-like NPCs against god-ish PCs means regular PCs are screwed even more.

Sorry, I couldn't hear you over Bro-Dog's 50 STR.

MisterLich wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

Or tone down things from the PC side so we can tone down the NPCs as well. Because god-like NPCs against god-ish PCs means regular PCs are screwed even more.

Sorry, I couldn't hear you over Bro-Dog's 50 STR.

I thought someone said he had rolled a Str mod of like 24 or 25, that would be like 60 Str.

Liz wrote:

Standard Liz disclaimer: I am a perfect idiot about build & balance stuff.

Or am I missing something (which seems very likely)?

I am afraid you are an imperfect idiot about balance, because that was a pretty darn comprehensive explanation of IE vs Evasion.

As evidence of this I put forward the fact Ruce got his IE ring from a character that had recently rebuilt and gained Evasion in the process. It was a trade for the infinite Displacement/day cloak, which isn't a great item, but for a character with Evasion as a feat, an Improved Evasion item is pretty mediocre too.

JusticeXIII wrote:

Ice wrote:

We agree in one thing: Improved evasion as an item property is an aberration. It's something far too powerful that requires investment in a sort of roguish class. It's one of the main components of these kind of characters, but with enough time to bosshunt, any character may get the ring (and a mountain of sureforged clubs in the process).
This is not fair. It is my personal opinion that bosshunting and grinding is a tedious task, and I didn't came to Amia to bore myself to death while rushing spawns in hope to finally roll below 6% and get something valuable. If I want my character to grow better and acquire something that fits his build, I am forced to waste -a lot- of time that I may as well be spending in something that I actually enjoy! I may be the only one with this opinion as well.

Bosshunting is a necessary evil, from my point of view, that is alright. If I wanted to change the systems, this would be posted in the IA forum.

I'm not quite sure what your stance on boss hunting is, but it seems moreso against the idea of having to do it, sort of. If so, I say what would separate those characters who's goal it is to seek power?

And it's not an evil by any means, it's a good, for those that wish to pursue it, to attain a goal they seek. A means to sift the good from the great, ICly of course. Perseverance, skill, and a little luck. But mostly statistics! (49% to find epic loot after 13 attempts)

To the topic at hand: Imp. Evasion, isn't that big a deal. It's nice to have for certain situations, but it's just like wearing a glove; protects your hand from dirt, but the rest of you can still get dirty. There's other ways to damage. As it stands now, there's ways around everything. I don't feel like removing one option of protection is a way of improving things, but the opposite. Takes away from the complexity, and that's bleh.

I am not even going to leave a disclaimer. The first sentence below I consider a matter of fact.

Boss hunting is boring and it is required if you want your character to gain an edge of power. Sure, you could go around and as long as you have the DCs do the RP and request your whole dream gear - I don't see any rule against that, but truth be told, I don't think the DMs would like the concept. (I could power RP for a whole month the research behind every possible item I want for my build, and I would manage to pay for at least 4 of them at the moment)

This topic is not about bosshunting. This topic is about Improved Evasion (And now Evasion as well) and how they affect the balance of our game in overall in order to have a firm stance on it and not just "ehh for me it's alright" " for me it is not" and a game of pull the rope whether is it overpowered or something to frown upon or just one more sort of skill.

If I digressed with bosshunting, those were just some of my thoughts that came out of the top hat when making the first argument. Acquisition is part of the equation.
(I'm also going to defy your percentage since that is just an optimistic way to see it - reality is that you have 1 in 20 in the moment of truth and it will always be like that regardless how you wish to see it)

Ice wrote:

This is my observation: I've noticed that many discussions about epic items and bosshunting in the forums end up with a DM saying "we encourage creation of your own epic gear". Then we see that nobody is really comfortable with having improved evasion in a custom item.

I don't think it's even just improved evasion either, I've seen some items be denied for having stats equal to items in-game. I'm all for the whole encouragement of epic gear creation, but if it's still worthwhile to actually go bosshunting, why bother? Can I just flat out request an ioun stone even if I RP the events of finding one? I can say the answer to that is probably a no, especially if it's something like the AC one.

Are we going back to the paladin-like chars are too powerful? Because of all the characters that really benefit from improved evasion, I can only think of paladin-ish characters.

I am torned on this, to be fairly honest. Improved evasion requires 9 levels of monk, or 10 levels of rogue (or other classes I'm not arsed to look for right now). Having it on a ring taking 1 mythal slot is like having something like crippling strike on a ring (it requires the same amount of rogue levels). I don't think imp. evasion is --that-- powerful though, so it never really bothered me -that much- (regular evasion does the job most of the time). Yet, I somehow like when classes have their own specialty and perks..

I side with Cory on that there are easily available potions/wands/pocketmage items that give bonuses that are far more gamebreaking than improved evasion. I understand Glim's point that when he makes a dungeon he has to shy away from adding reflex save stuff because everyone and their mom apparently have improved evasion, but then EVERY SINGLE DUNGEON has enemies that induce the FEAR status effect, or there are stuff that cast dispels, creating way more problems in my opinion. If "Making the challenge of a dungeon to make it interesting" is adding yet another freaking mob with an aura of fear, then I have to say that part of dungeons on Amia is -not- helping my entertainment (and I say that with full discloser that I actually really enjoy the dungeons on Amia - fear pisses me off though). If every dungeon has something that casts dispel in them, I am unsure it is for the mages out-there (because usually the critters cannot dispel the mage's spells), but instead to fight against the multitude of potions with insane effects - that are VITAL to even do anything in any high lvl dungeon.

So yeah, I really don't think you should ditch the negative effect the things Cory mentioned have on your building dungeons time. The fact that you shrug it off saying "BAH, it can be dispelled" because for you all you have to do is implement yet another creature that casts dispel, means that these things have a serious impact on what encounters will have to look like.

Uberuce wrote:

Liz wrote:

Standard Liz disclaimer: I am a perfect idiot about build & balance stuff.

Or am I missing something (which seems very likely)?

I am afraid you are an imperfect idiot about balance, because that was a pretty darn comprehensive explanation of IE vs Evasion.

As evidence of this I put forward the fact Ruce got his IE ring from a character that had recently rebuilt and gained Evasion in the process. It was a trade for the infinite Displacement/day cloak, which isn't a great item, but for a character with Evasion as a feat, an Improved Evasion item is pretty mediocre too.

Evasion is great, and because we don't have any stopping on builds you can get evasion on any character unless we did something like move evasion to level 6 on the classes that get it, IMHO that would be cool, but I'd be hated forever.

It's the cat's cream of only taking half damage -irrespective- of your reflex save that makes Improved Evasion to good for an item, regardless of the subjective comparison to evasion. In PvM, the only Pv I am at all concerned about, it's a total no brainer, forget your reflex save because you won't ever need to ever worry about damage reflex based spells killing you and where you'd normally have your reflex you put physical resistances, a bit more con, and some elemental resistances which are all universal rather than reflex oriented. Mindblank + Freedom and those CC spells generally just melt away.

What the IE ring/kumakawa does to PvM on this server is give players an untenable boost to their EHP by freeing up gearing slots that should be reserved for reflex but aren't. Any talk for or against the actual ability with regards to PvP is a null point, if you don't have the saves to avoid damage, you also don't have the saves to avoid reflex based CC and you will get Mords/CC to death anyway.

That was an excellent summary of the argument against IE, and it's not always easy to put together excellent arguments when the effects are so spread out across the server's mechanics, so thanks from me and most people who are considering this issue!

Let me try to summarize my thoughts on why IE on items in PvE is powerful, but not overpowered in a similar way to try to contribute to the argument:

1. IE protects against some reflex-save spells but not others. Certainly there are many reflex-based damage spells used by the server's monsters, probably best illustrated by the cadre of Fire Giant spells cast in the spires. However there are spells that still require a character to have significant reflex save investment, even they they DO have an IE ring, such as sunburst. The brilliantly designed Frost Faeries elsewhere in Brog are a perfect example of using the server's talented development team to come up with ways to make reflex still useful even if you have an IE ring, and in the process, make the server more varied and fun-challenging for everyone.

2. There are many PvE spells that don't need a reflex save anyway. Many foes use spells which have no IE-applicable save roll, such as the many monsters who cast Magic Missile based spells, and the IE ring won't help you there. By increasing the amount of spells which have no reflex save against them among the server's PvE casters, you further place IE as a strong piece, but in the end just one of many pieces, in the rock-paper-scissors of the server.

3. IE protects against some traps but not others. There are plenty of traps out there current deployed in PvE environments that do not have a reflex save. Frost, Negative energy, Sonic, and Holy damage traps roll fortitude or will instead, making IE unable to prevent the damage. In addition, just having Evasion is often enough to null the damage, since the DCs of the traps currently employed are not especially high. By adding more of the non-reflex traps, or perhaps by creating some new deployed PvE obstacles that don't use GetReflexAdjustedDamage() to calculate damage, you would further reduce the already limited area where IE gives an advantage. I'm sure I am not alone on thinking the Gauntlet and Abyss areas could benefit from a trap rearrangement for reasons besides those listed here too!

As a brief final point, I would again point to the many brilliantly designed PvE elements which have been added to the server to fully flex the range of saves and feats required by players to combat them. IE is a very strong part of those required saves and feats, but it is far from the only one or the most powerful, and after all, PvE is itself only one part of the server's experience.

All this leads me to believe that replacing player's items retroactively is not the best solution to the issue at hand. Thank you very much for taking the time to read my comments, and I encourage criticism!

Honestly, what potions people use with the exception of Misty potions for lower level dungeons (cus it has the potential to completely negate early damage if I'm not careful) has no bearing on my work when I do up a dungeon.

MisterLich wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

Or tone down things from the PC side so we can tone down the NPCs as well. Because god-like NPCs against god-ish PCs means regular PCs are screwed even more.

Sorry, I couldn't hear you over Bro-Dog's 50 STR.

Bro-Dog is one of the worst things to happen to Amia and shall not be counted for anything.

Ice wrote:

I am not even going to leave a disclaimer. The first sentence below I consider a matter of fact.

Boss hunting is boring and it is required if you want your character to gain an edge of power. Sure, you could go around and as long as you have the DCs do the RP and request your whole dream gear - I don't see any rule against that, but truth be told, I don't think the DMs would like the concept. (I could power RP for a whole month the research behind every possible item I want for my build, and I would manage to pay for at least 4 of them at the moment)

This topic is not about bosshunting. This topic is about Improved Evasion (And now Evasion as well) and how they affect the balance of our game in overall in order to have a firm stance on it and not just "ehh for me it's alright" " for me it is not" and a game of pull the rope whether is it overpowered or something to frown upon or just one more sort of skill.

If I digressed with bosshunting, those were just some of my thoughts that came out of the top hat when making the first argument. Acquisition is part of the equation.
(I'm also going to defy your percentage since that is just an optimistic way to see it - reality is that you have 1 in 20 in the moment of truth and it will always be like that regardless how you wish to see it)

My intent was not to be rude, I honestly wasn't sure. In the OP it seemed to be saying it's okay, but that it shouldn't have to be done either. Was just confused. Either way though, I simply addressed boss hunting b/c I felt as if you used it to further your issue with imp. evasion. Again, sorry if that was a misinterpretation. And I really mean that.

Running slightly off topic again, you can't defy statistics so easily. It is simply fact that after a long enough timeline, you're going to get something.

Adam killed him last week, if that helps. He got better, which probably doesn't.

MoshingChris wrote:

What the IE ring/kumakawa does to PvM on this server is give players an untenable boost to their EHP by freeing up gearing slots that should be reserved for reflex but aren't. Any talk for or against the actual ability with regards to PvP is a null point, if you don't have the saves to avoid damage, you also don't have the saves to avoid reflex based CC and you will get Mords/CC to death anyway.

Buuuut, you don't see people PvMing at full tilt with the Kumakawa, or at least I don't and am under the impression most people suck at Amia compared to me. Gauntlet scroll restocking and Giant Mythal farming, sure, but for the actual rough stuff, I rate 2AC and not needing 18DEX more than Improved Evasion.

Glim wrote:

Honestly, what potions people use with the exception of Misty potions for lower level dungeons (cus it has the potential to completely negate early damage if I'm not careful) has no bearing on my work when I do up a dungeon.

You're the sod who gave gibberlings acid right? :mrgreen:

Uberuce wrote:

Adam killed him last week, if that helps. He got better, which probably doesn't.

Wasn't even going to bring that up, I seriously had paragraphs about this sort of thing but decided not to type it... But yeah. A small group of epics finally killed him, after he single handedly killed multiple of us with just punching us, and then, after we kill him, he just gets up, swears at us, and walks away.

Then, there's Grimdur, who is the one with the 50 STR mod (saw him roll a STR check)... He killed Dirk without even being hit, I think, which not only made Dirk no longer the strongest and coolest person there (which he fought to become), but people lost gold on betting on that fight. I only lost a little bit of gold compared to Jake, but still, I thought Grimdur was a player character. It was almost like trying to trick the players.

Both of them, Grimdur and Bro-Dog, are funny, and fun, but they're also infuriating because they basically break the game. It almost seems like mild power abuse. If you want to build a powerful, funny character, build a legal one... Otherwise you're just invalidating other, legal, powerful characters, like Dirk, who had to spend a lot of time and RP to become powerful. It's the worst thing ever for an RP server to invalidate it's players in any way. I do want to point out again though, that they are usually funny characters, so it's not like the DM's that made them are horrible or anything. I just see their power level as a huge problem (probably because the characters of Amia are all stupidly powerful, so it's hard to have non-Godly DM characters).

I strongle disagree with your assesment Misterlich.

Grimdur wasn't funny to me, he was a kick-ass hard bitten mercenary.
I don't think it matters if someone is a pc or npc when you bet on him. Thats the drawback of betting; you may lose gold.
I also don't think anyone thought less of Dirk for falling to Grimdur because Grim was so powerfull. I didnt see anyone jeer ic atleast.
Also as ic explanation, Avadon and Grim saw Dirk fight two or three bouts and then decided to have Grim fight him. They could easily appraise Dirk and determine Grim could take him down and then tempt Qucikdraw into the bet. Just keep it ic and blame Avadon for framing the match.

I for one am curious to see what Grimdur will do next and how Wiltun is tied into that.

So in short, I don't see a problem in strong npc's that need some serious work to be defeated.

Edit: I just realised this post is entirely off-topic :oops:

Sorry. I don't have to add too much to the original topic except that seeing things being removed always makes me vaguely uneasy. It tends to become a domino effect if not carefully handled.

Back on topic please, though I think it's mostly been said at this point.

Uberuce wrote:

Buuuut, you don't see people PvMing at full tilt with the Kumakawa, or at least I don't and am under the impression most people suck at Amia compared to me. Gauntlet scroll restocking and Giant Mythal farming, sure, but for the actual rough stuff, I rate 2AC and not needing 18DEX more than Improved Evasion.

^ This.

Maybe make imp evasion (or any feat on an item) be considered 2 powers instead of 1?

any clues being given as per what we might expect yet?

corypx wrote:

any clues being given as per what we might expect yet?

Almost certainly some kind of nerf because people complained.

I was one of the people complaining (most vocally), giving someone a feat that requires 9 levels of investment on an item is ridiculous however you look at it.

Silent2001 wrote:

I was one of the people complaining (most vocally), giving someone a feat that requires 9 levels of investment on an item is ridiculous however you look at it.

I agree with that, but I also consider a lot of the potions / items with cast spells to do the same thing for casters as improved evasion for everyone does it for rogues/monks/etc. They're as ridiculous, if not more.

* It does not excuse improved evasion on items though, but solving that problem is extremely touchy and difficult

IE on items is completely different than potions. I won't say further because it's self-explanatory.

It's not -that- different when gold is infinite and there are plenty of ways to get the buffs up and / or buy yourself some time.

The truth everyone can dispel (with the right items), but not everyone can do it as good as casters. However, everyone can buy 100 stacks of potions to be immune to mostly everything (this includes mindspells, death magic, ability drains, paralysis, etc.), get themselves +20 AB (!), get themselves +50% concealment (!!), etc. so that when a dispel does manage to go through, they can just reuse that/these potions or actives on their items - as many times as they want.

The phenomenon of "Pocket Mages" is a lot more harmful to the server as Improved Evasion is, but regardless of that, it still is very cheap to have it "easily" accessible to all and everyone on an item.. especially if it only is 1 mythal slot.

PS: I usually do not like to take part in discussions about things my characters could be biased about (Saya has improved evasion, so nerfing these rings would not affect me / would give an advantage to her, indirectly), but I assure you I am simply analyzing this from a very objective point of view.

Improved evasion requires monk 9, rogue 10, shadowdancer 10.

Monk 9 - benefits almost every lawful melee build even without IE
rogue 10- same with regards to even a non-sneaker (just flat-foot and get sneak die)

I don't see how game breaking having IE on an item is considering most of the pc casters specialize in no-save or at least not-reflex-save spells and DMs always make CL50 caster mobs with reflex-spells to make IE moot in part.

There's a bigger problem with other purchaseables:

1. diseases/poisons because restoration and antidote/remove disease are a dime a dozen.
How can someone play a blighter in the server like that?

2. Negative Energy Protection - an entire line of spells is rendered useless by one potion.

With a bit of effort one can acquire more immunities on the fly (yes they are dispellable but like the above said - it's easy to stack a ton of them) i don't think removing any of them is the right idea. perhaps working on the other side of the equation to help reflex-save-casters overcome IE even partially?

Eizendur wrote:

1. diseases/poisons because restoration and antidote/remove disease are a dime a dozen.
How can someone play a blighter in the server like that?

2. Negative Energy Protection - an entire line of spells is rendered useless by one potion.

1. Perhaps hoping that the opponent has not got any of them is the only way I could see a blighter winning.

2. NEP is my biggest pet peeve. Playing a pure Shadowdancer, a NEP is all someone needs to make one of the biggest virtues of a pure SD fade away: The powerful Shade. With a NEP, all it is is some high AC monster that just hits 1s.

I do not wish to digress this thread, I wish IE to be removed from items even having used it on items myself. I wish for some non-class buffs to fade, but that is not in line with this thread and I do not wish to raise it myself because the potions mentioned have become the status quo on the server and while people may agree with me, I guarantee even they would agree removing them would make Amia a whole lot tougher.

Let's play a game. In every single post henceforth, you must keep in mind the following points before going on:

You must differentiate between PvP, PvE, and environment.
You must accept that it requires a good amount of levels of a couple of classes.
You must note, at least for yourself, that item properties aren't the same as buffs granted by potions and easy-access spells.

I purposefully avoid mentioning Evasion in this "game" for the moment. Ready? Go.

Why do we need to keep those in mind? You assert those points like they're universal truth or something. All three are debatable.

Mushidoz wrote:

The phenomenon of "Pocket Mages" is a lot more harmful to the server.

And having a high magic setting where over 75% of all characters are unable to hack it because they don't happen to have a mage friend to help them level isn't a bad thing? I can think of plenty of servers like that... they don't have players anymore :lol:

Because they are universal truth, Liz.
Where, how, when, in contrast of what, in comparison of what. Those are some of the points that determine not only what IE is but everything that connects to it in this thread.

To put what I said in a less playful manner; I've seen several times in this thread IE ridiculed over and over again because most of the wizards don't use spells with reflex save. That is discarding the whole feat just because it doesn't have an use against certain kind of situation.

I did open the thread so everybody may toss their two coppers about it. Everybody is welcomed to just ignore and post whatever they want, but objectivity is actually what we are looking for here. Correct me if I am wrong.

Objectivity is great, Ice, but you're asserting opinions as facts. I'll just focus on your second one, because it's the one that struck me the most:

IE would regularly cost significant level investment in certain classes, yes. But, as I tried to argue above, it's not IE that's the game-changer. The actual game-changer is *regular* Evasion. IE's half damage on fail is nice, but it's not the thing that totally reshapes most characters. That's done by the ability to take no damage at all on a passed save. Evasion is the cake, IE is just the colorful sugary frosting. And regular evasion is available with trivial investmest in rogue or monk, which many, many builds dip into specifically for Evasion and Tumbledump. So while your point is technically correct (yes, IE requires a lot of levels to get without items) it's not relevant (IE is not the larger problem, regular evasion is).

My fear is that the nerf that's incoming on this will be to replace IE items with items that give regular Evasion, which will only address the issue marginally.

I do agree with you, but lest you want to suggest to change normal evasion to 6 more levels ahead in the classes at least...

How many Improved Evasion items are there around in total? Liz has the thick of it. Evasion is the issue, Improved Evasion doesn't make things worse. It's all been blown completely out of proportion here. Not many people have IE items. The people that do have to painstakingly amass their wealth enough to buy one, or get very very lucky. Epic items SHOULD be powerful. That's the whole point. Yes, it is powerful. No, it is not game breaking.

There are two: the ring, which is great; and the kumakawa armor, which is medium armor (scale mail, I think?) and therefore f***ing terrible.

Ice wrote:

You must accept that it requires a good amount of levels of a couple of classes.
You must note, at least for yourself, that item properties aren't the same as buffs granted by potions and easy-access spells.

When someone can keep those potion buffs up 100% of the time (yes, they can), they very much are the same as item properties. They're just item properties with a gold sink attached.

Interestingly enough, Lesser Mindblank requires a 9 level investment to be able to use, as well.

In fact, I think putting Mind Immunity on items is actually better than having potions all over the place. Why? Because it forces you to use another mythal slot (or even 2!!!) on something you will have up 100% of the time, anyway.

Improved Evasion is not the problem. It never was. It's on one shitty armor sold in a shop at the end of an epic level dungeon. And it's on one item that is a rare epic loot drop.

Freedom, on the other hand, is an issue. In fact, the developers have had to completely retool an entire class because of the prevalence of Freedom. And I can get permanent Freedom at the start of the game.

People like to gripe about the wrong things.

Improved Evasion gives you better than 50% damage reduction against all reflex based spells regardless of your reflex save.

Now try and request 50% damage reduction against all reflex based spells.

Improved Evasion isn't a problem. . .on the classes that have investment to get improved evasion.

To get regular evasion you need to have a one or two level minimum investment in a third class. That barely impacts most regular builds. And if you fail the save you take full damage.

When people compare evasion to improved evasion I just shrug my shoulders and point at the fact that we can just change IE to Evasion. If you are correct and the Improved part isn't really that great, then your griping about it being exchanged is pointless.

The post above very much sums it up.

+1

MoshingChris wrote:

If you are correct and the Improved part isn't really that great, then your griping about it being exchanged is pointless.

I made that argument and I was told, essentially, it was a bad argument.

Evasion is nice, yes, but it only works if you have a high Reflex save or if you roll a 20. That means any dex build always benefits from it, however non-DEX builds only benefit if they roll a 20 or if the save is low enough they don't need a 20.

Improved Evasion, on the other hand, automatically allows you to take 50% damage regardless of your build; whereas with Evasion you had to make the rolls to get any benefit (ie a low-Reflex build is going to take full damage by failing the Reflex save with Evasion, with Improved Evasion a low-Ref build auto gets 50% damage). However if you make the save (addressed below) you take no damage at all.

Does no one see what is wrong here? Let's combine IE rings with the fact that a good number of builds (WM and Paladins, for example, as well as Clerics and most any build) take two levels of Rogue to net Evasion... and then also strive for an IE ring. So, High Reflex (especially WM and Paladins) are going to want the IE ring so they can basically be immune to anything with a Reflex save that allowing for half damage because regardless they will always take 50% damage or 0% damage.

God forbid one PC in 50 doesn't instantly die when they run over 3 epic traps

fact of the matter is, the DC loot getting pushed out now (6+ power -ASF armor) and Immunity to Fear etc are all far more valuable and overpowered than IE. (It's also on non-DC loot)

Don't really see the reason for this thread, IE is good against traps, sure, but it's not remotely as overpowered as getting Auto Still (I,II,III) all in one go without sacrificing a power, and still gaining 3-5 other godly ones. (All of which get approved on a regular basis)

Sorry, I don't feel bad for the rogue who went to the abyss with an invis pot, picked up 50 traps, set them all up, and didn't kill an entire party while laughing.

Here's why IE isn't so strong it needs removed from items, in my opinion:

1. Only a fraction of spells allow a reflex save on spells, and many PvE casters use the spells that don't, like missile spells.

2. Even among the spells that allow a reflex save, only some of them allow IE/Evasion, and many PvE caster use the one's that don't allow IE/Evasion, such as thunderclap and sunburst.

3. Only a fraction of traps use reflex and IE/Evasion, and there are many in PvE which don't, such as frost, sonic, and negative energy.

Those who argue that IE is very strong against the spells/traps it works against are right! But, those spells/traps are just a fraction of the whole, and that's why it's not overpowered in terms of the whole server's balance.

So we are in agreement. IE isn't a big deal and therefore can safely be removed from items. I mean, if it's not that epic then it shouldn't qualify to be on an epic grade item, correct?

No it's great, but it only affects a fraction of things on the server. The argument is that it's so strong it needs phased out of all items. I'm saying the status quo is fine.

So it's great, but only in very specific instances? Wouldn't that, overall, make it not great and thereby eliminate it's necessity as an epic grade item?

We're talking about removing and changing people's items. The argument is about why that extreme step should be made.

Goldwater wrote:

We're talking about removing and changing people's items. The argument is about why that extreme step should be made.

Agreed; changing items that people have built their characters around being available is not a decision that should ever be made lightly, and unless it's perma haste, is a case that's going to be near impossible to make.

I would argue that you should not, ever, build a character around an item or items being available. That's folly, pure and simple. Though I'm unsure what character would be built around potentially acquiring an IE ring.

When I built my spellsword, sure, I wanted to get (and did get) the 0 ASF armor because it was there and convenient, however I was still willing to pay DCs for 0 ASF armor (and plan to eventually do so).

That's a different argument entirely.

Naivatkal wrote:

I would argue that you should not, ever, build a character around an item or items being available. That's folly, pure and simple. Though I'm unsure what character would be built around potentially acquiring an IE ring.

When I built my spellsword, sure, I wanted to get (and did get) the 0 ASF armor because it was there and convenient, however I was still willing to pay DCs for 0 ASF armor (and plan to eventually do so).

I rest my case, you're proving my point for me!

I don't see how. If you mean the part about DC gear there is a difference here:

DC gear is available only via approved request. IE rings are available to potentially anyone wanting to boss hunt. Huge difference in the two, especially when you consider gold to be far more infinite than DCs in that you can grind and amass gold to pay for an IE ring from another player as well.

My point is that you built your character, ignoring 4 feats, because you have backhand knowledge that it's going to be available in game.

In my opinion, that assumption in your case is far worse than the existence of IE ring, since it's far more powerful. Therefore, neither should be changed, since it's fine how it is. Focus on fixing the real balance issues, please; not retroactively gimping people for making a decision that you feel is OP but backhandedly support by doing the same thing with another item.

In your case, that makes or breaks your character, and makes them able to cast spells. In the case of the IE ring, it just means running over a few extra sonic traps with the laggy NWN engine wouldn't instadead you.

Edit: Furthermore, just because an item is earned by dream coins, doesn't mean it can't follow the same general balance criteria, even if a DC item has far more potential than a IE ring. Don't say gold is infinite and then in the post above it base the existence of the ring as "potential"; the two ideas conflict.

Improved Evasion!

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