AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - 3.5 Campaign Journal (RotA, Silence of Lolth)

This neat chunk of sourcebook summarizes the important events at the end of 3.5. I apologize for the small image size. (Note: I'm not sure if the Silence is Amia canon. I know RotA is, but I'd wait for clarification on Silence before using any of it.)

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=68561

Dustspray101 wrote:

The Silence of Lolth has not happened. The error in the Lore section stating that it had happened in Amia's history has been corrected as to avoid any future misunderstandings. This is to say that the events found in the series War of the Spider Queen simply have not occurred in our timeline nor have the events said series inspired.
((Such as: Cosmology wise, the Demonweb Pits are still a part of the Abyss. Eilestrae and Vhaerun are still alive and kicking. Ghaundaur has not seperated from the Drow Pantheon. etc...))

The DMs have yet to re-evaluate that and give the corrected answer after it was brought up. It certainly happened in Amia before and was intended to be included in the official timeline, but somebody missed a memo in the constant shuffling of team changes. We'll see if they make the right call.

Very useful source, that. Haven't seen it before, but it contains info that everyone should be aware of if they play a PC that's supposed to know something about the outside world. One of the important developements that it doesn't cover and that has relevance to Evereska, is the Crusade against the Fey'ri. The elves are in a weakened state after the fall of high magic some time ago and then the attack on Evereska, but the Elven Retreat has finally ended (I think quite officially, too) and they're turning their attention back on the world. Many elves from Evermeet but also from Evereska have joined the Crusade and are now in the middle of war - or at least alert. The Fey'ri have not been purged yet, but they've gone hiding and there hasn't been any major clashes for some years now (unless DMs have introduced such in game). So your elven characters have a lot of material to motivate them and shape their history.

It isn't the wrong call when there isn't any information easily found behind the curtain to support it occurred and wasn't just an accidental copy-paste from the history of the realms.

That said, as you are one of the older players/former teamsters, do you know where I can try to track down information on how it may have gone down on Amia?

DustSpray101 wrote:

That said, as you are one of the older players/former teamsters, do you know where I can try to track down information on how it may have gone down on Amia?

If there were good records on the forum, it seems they're gone now. I tried searching, but sadly came up with nothing. I tried different combinations of drow, Lolth, no spells, silence, silent, cleric, spider queen etc. There have been at least two instances of losing stuff from the forums, those topics must have been victim to them.

There was an event, perhaps in early 2006, that Lolth fell silent and ceased granting spells to her clerics. To be honest, the original intention didn't seem to be to represent the global Silence in Amia. I think she may have such been pissed at Ultrinnan, and that's what some PCs speculated anyhow. However, it was realized that it works pretty well in the grand scheme of things and was our chance to bring some of the Realms-wide events into Amia. Eventually she broke her silence, some feast of sacrifice was organized and things went on as usual.

Let's look at timing: 2008 was 1376 in our time. That's the firm turning point (Day of Revolution in Cordor) after which events have rolled on mostly at a 1:1 timescale but before which everything is gradually stretched further and further into the past. According to the timeline, 2006 encompassed events at least from 1371 (Simbul on Amia, Orphanage fire) to 1374 (Vodak's first appearance). So it happens that the year of Lolth's silence in game (2006) coincides with the year of Lolth's Silence in 1372-1373. Coincidence, yes, but extremely fortuitous at that.

Another note on timing: Dissolution was published in 2002. That means it was already accepted FR canon by the time Amia came to be. That's why I was surprised and angry at your decision at first (apart from the fact that a carefully considered decision was referred to as a mistake, but you had no way of knowing): it hasn't been news for ten years. They are among the most widely-known and read FR novels and lore outside of the core campaign setting books. We include events from Return of the Archwizards, The Last Mythal, the Sembia series etc., all of which are less-known and some of them more recent. It seems arbitrary and strange that such an old and established series would be arbitrarily dismissed.

A further argument is this: The Underdark, the 3.5e sourcebook on (duh) the Underdark, assumes WotSQ happened. That's where we get our most recent lore from. There actually is no Underdark sourcebook between that one and the 2e books, so dismissing WotSQ leaves us without any up-to-date source at all.

But to be fair, I don't think there have been many DM events that necessitate the events of WotSQ. References were made, several PC backstories featured the fall of Ched Nasad, and an in-game event was creatively interpreted as related to a global event. It was neat and added scope. You could do without it and not cause a stir (as you clearly have done). I just don't see why you would want to, when it was decided and announced to be part of Amia canon several years ago. Clarifying that very issue was actually one of the biggest motivating factors to write the official timeline, for me anyway.

This is what the timeline used to say:

Quote:

Lolth falls silent. The silence lasts into the next year. During it the Jazered Chaulssin attack drow cities all around. Ched Nasad is destroyed, Menzoberranzan weakened, Eryndlyn fallen to Vhaeraunians and Ghaunadaurians. Maerimydra is fallen to Kiaransaleens, but later destroyed by monsters. In the meantime, drow harass Daggerdale, but adventurers put a stop to it. Lolth finally emerges as a greater deity. (War of the Spider Queen, City of the Spider Queen.)

We did not jump on the cosmical shifts bandwagon, though. Lolth was a greater deity, but that's about it. The simple reason we included WotSQ in Amian history was that there was no reason not to. It can be seen as a precursor to annihilation of the pantheon, but it doesn't actually imply that on its own. It was a surprise to everyone when Lady Penitent came along and leveled the way for 4e.

Do what you will with it. These are the arguments: 1) accurate timing, 2) global scope to in-game events, 3) PC backstories, 4) previous decisions, 5) the availability of sources, 6) consistency with the general policy that books from that time period are accepted as such, and 7) simply the virtue in preserving as much canon lore as possible when no compelling reasons demand otherwise. In my opinion, that's quite a lot of good arguments (even accounting for the unflattering but undeniable fact that I just love to win).

To be fair, it was not an arbitrary dismissal. For a time I even wanted to run it as a plot as, beyond the short blurb in the history thread, there was no evidence of it occurring. The proof for that belief was in what gods we have on Amia.

If we are ignoring the cosmology, we are in essence (and arguably) ignoring the very source for the Silence of Lolth. That is where we are getting on shaky ground.

But what cosmology? Lolth emerging as a greater deity? That's what happens in the book. The rest of the stuff is later/elsewhere, as far as I know. If Underdark puts Lolth's domain as something else than F&P (which is what I assume it does based on your comment in an earlier thread), then that's probably less confusing to adopt. I honestly don't know what exactly happened cosmology-wise in the events of the Silence, but the radical things that we strictly want to avoid are later: the death of gods etc.

Either way, I've personally never put much stock in the exact specifics of where some deity's realm is, in the cosmology, because we use a confusing blend of Tree and Wheel cosmologies with overlapping planes and, more importantly, that's not the kind of exact science PCs would be entitled to. They could travel to the Demonweb Pits, they could contact it, but it's not like they have an accurate blueprint of the planes.

As one of the players whose PC's backstory was significantly influenced by the events of Lolth's silence (and I also assumed that we were in the middling period between the end of the silence and before all the cool drow gods got killed off), I would also prefer if the silence got put back in for Amia. I think many other drow players would prefer it as well. I mean, why else would so many of us toddle off to this god-forsaken corner of the Underdark? Why wouldn't we return to our healthy, not-destroyed cities (Ched Nasad and Eryndlyn are the big ones, but there are probably others).

serbiris wrote:

I would also prefer if the silence got put back in for Amia. I think many other drow players would prefer it as well.

I don't think you'd find a single evil drow player who wouldn't prefer it back, in fact. That's dozens of people, guys. Please work it out somehow.

Aeqvinox wrote:

I don't think you'd find a single evil drow player who wouldn't prefer it back, in fact.

Explain.

The cosmology altered would be the open war between Selvertarm and Vhaerun. It would be everywhere the WotSQ ends and the Lady Penitent series begins. To avoid it we need to change the ending. Which, if we change the ending to accommodate our ignoring of Cosmological issues, completely undoes the original reason for the Silence.

If we chop it, players are upset *motions up* and if we alter it, strength and impact of the event itself are lost which results in more displeasure as back stories still wouldn't make send with new story.

Rock <~> Hard Place

Also, Ultrannin was never part of the actual Underdark anyways. It is part of the Amian Underground. It is seperate from the actual Underdark by two vast caverns of water.

At present thought, there were truly no pressing reasons other than sheer exploration and territory conquering to even drive out so far away to begin with. Could even stretch the religious idea that the goal was to weaken the hold of Eilestrae in the region.

As for Edonil and Nec'perya there after, the region of the UD under the Frozenfar gives plenty of better reasons for why Drow may want to settle and assert their influence in the region.

We should always strive to stick as close to canon lore as possible for many reasons. One being that my sourcebooks are actually worth something instead of using them and realising that A, B and X did not happen here.

Amia has very little homebrew stuff, which i am glad of.

I agree. But, to make this work lore wise and still fit the Amian setting, parts would rather arbitrarily need to be homebrewed. This will result in backgrounds changing anyways. Also, it will take a lot of personal time to comb thru as the WotSQ series will need to be reread, major points altered, etc.

DustSpray101 wrote:

I agree. But, to make this work lore wise and still fit the Amian setting, parts would rather arbitrarily need to be homebrewed. This will result in backgrounds changing anyways. Also, it will take a lot of personal time to comb thru as the WotSQ series will need to be reread, major points altered, etc.

WotSQ?
Just ... Make it as much Canon as you can, If not all. It's always better to stick to the official campaign so to avoid confusion. We have a great GREAT reputation of being extremely correct lore-wise and It sucks to chip away on that reputation.

There's a point where Lore-correctness may not suit what the Server seeks though and where instead the DMs ought pursue their own direction, drawing as much as possible from the canon to help them discern how entities would react.

The DMs are the final call on this though, through their stories. Many books , especially I think the FR core support this in princple. Sometimes it's better to explore 'What If?' than walk down the pre-existing canon material roads.

War of the Spider Queen. It is the series where the Silence takes place.

You really don't have to change anything, the silence of Lolth led to some stupid stuff in cannon anyway so I not care too much for it personally, especially since the Silence of Lolth on Amia while the same idea as in the cannon was NOT from what I recall the same event as the WOTSQ silence.

So basically the timeline splits off and The Cannon FR had one silence and Amia had a silence too but with different results.

Also regardless amia is not a tapestry of lore it is a damned patchwork quilt with DMs doing their things and the other DMs doing other things and hardly any of them really connecting and then bringing in or tossing out bits of lore as things change to make it all work. Cannon stuff is always nice but amia as a setting is Cannonical-ish. So just make the damned thing work how it best does on amia, preferably with regard to first amia's own cannon and FR but if you need to retcon then do it and if you need to just ingnore or change stuff do that, your not going to be the first or last and it will work out fine no matter what.

Okay, so... maybe a dumb question, but: so Selvetarm and Vhaeraun would be enemies. So what? The FR is full of deities that hate each others' guts. Why would this instance be more harmful?

Last edited by IronAngel on Wed, Oct 16 2013, 8:01 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Liz wrote:

Okay, so... maybe a dumb question, but: so Selvetarm and Vhaeraun would be enemies. So what? The FR is full of deities that hate each others' guts. Why would this instance be more harmful?

And they've always been enemies. Never in Amian history has there been a time when their followers could get along. It's always been to the gallows with the heretic, whoever has the upper hand. (EDIT: And wouldn't dynamic deity relations be a good thing? If those two churches have indeed received more incentive to undermine eachother, that can only be good material for DM events and PC plots.)

I'm not really interested in the theoretical question of whether Amia should be a patchwork or a seamless continuity of lore. The DMs seem to agree with most people on the reasonable stance: stick as close to canon and discard as few sources as possible, but don't be afraid to let local story purposes trump them. It's just the specifics of this case that are in question, and I can appreciate the "no good solutions" situation. I just don't quite understand the (cosmological, and other) problems that Dust feels there are with the series.

Lolth's Silence was about her ascencion as a greater deity. She had gathered enough support and supernatural juices to cocoon and emerge more powerful. That's pretty much it. Apparently (taking Dusty's word on it) that shifted the planar location of her home - happened before and doesn't really affect anything. And Selvetarm and Vhaeraun wrestled in the void, but they've been at it for millenia and their churches have been enemies. I don't see what part of this is problematic or undesireable. The story was used in follow-up plots, but has no intrinsic connection to them.

As I've said in the earlier topic: Page 10 of Underdark actually has a box about this. The book assumes the drow are in the middle of Lolth's Silence and there's trouble everywhere. "If you would prefer not to incorporate these events into your campaign, you can rule that Lolth's silence has ended and that the drow clerics have regained their spell ability." That's what we did, basically. Perhaps it went according to the book, perhaps it didn't. Either way, the events that most affect the mundane world (Menzoberranzan slave rebellion, fall of Ched Nasad, the activities of the Jaezred Chaulssin, which I think have PCs on Amia, events at Eryndlyn etc.) are an unproblematic and desireable consequence of the Silence that we wouldn't want to lose.

If we don't use the Silence, then not only do we have to discard WotSQ. We also can't use The Underdark, a thorough source book on the region, nor City of the Spider Queen, an adventure module. We're not just losing material from a popular novel series, but also our primary setting book and the only other up-to-date game supplement. If you can't use The Underdark, what will you use? The last book on the region is 2e and outdated.

Excursus: The Amian Underdark has been somehow connected to the rest of the UD always, that should be a given. I don't know how, perhaps by portals. But since most PCs come from other cities and they didn't book a ride on a topside boat, that's the only possibility. Either way, it would be unfortunate to lose all the juicy events that shook drow settlements across the UD and gave background material for PCs and plots.

Please no Silence, I like Selvetarm.

gravitas wrote:

Please no Silence, I like Selvetarm.

What? Silence has nothing to do with Selvetarm.

For comparison, retconning the events in the Underdark would be on the level of saying Evereska never got attacked, Evermeet never sent an army to Faerûn, Shade didn't return to the Prime, Daggerdale didn't get wrecked by Fzoul's troops, and whatever else major has happened recently. These events affect the world of PCs and DM stories, they are documented both in novels and game products, and simply, they are the backdrop and big picture of the setting, against which smaller events occur. If you choose to pull one aspect out, not only will some other events become unintelligible, you also drag the world backwards into a stagnant status quo. The whole beauty of the Realms was (as long as it was still a good setting) that big events progressed dynamically elsewhere and could cast their shadow on local business when we want to use them. Denying ourselves access to good story material is silly, when we can just let it loom passively in history if we don't have use for it right now.

IronAngel wrote:

Excursus: The Amian Underdark has been somehow connected to the rest of the UD always, that should be a given. I don't know how, perhaps by portals. But since most PCs come from other cities and they didn't book a ride on a topside boat, that's the only possibility. Either way, it would be unfortunate to lose all the juicy events that shook drow settlements across the UD and gave background material for PCs and plots.

DustSpray101 wrote:

Also, Ultrannin was never part of the actual Underdark anyways. It is part of the Amian Underground. It is seperate from the actual Underdark by two vast caverns of water.

You can get in via boat without ever seeing the light of the surface.

As things presently stand, I don't see why you can't still use FRCS: UD. If the WotSQ didn't happen, but a short Amian Silence did, you don't need to scrap the whole book. The map may be off as instead of "ruin" it may be able to read "city" on a few locations. By no means does that mean "whelp, this whole damn thing is useless."

Otherwise, I took the WotSQ books off the shelf and am starting to read them as I am able to.

Why don't we just say the Amian Silence was when Lolth ascended to being a greater deity, everyone was affected for that brief week, and be done with it? Maybe a city wasn't destroyed but instead rioted or something. Keep it simple?

DustSpray101 wrote:

You can get in via boat without ever seeing the light of the surface.

Oh, I thought you meant two caverns full of water (but then, they should probably flood the local Underdark if that was the case).

Naivatkal: whether Lolth became bigger or not is kind of irrelevant since it has no bearing on PC life. It was specifically the changes in cities being destroyed and undergoing all sorts of shake-ups that we wanted to hold onto. If we are to keep it simple, the current solution is much better than, for no reason, taking the events and then modifying them. The situation pre-WotSQ wasn't problematic, and the situation post-WotSQ isn't problematic, so we need to pick one.

We can have both (or rather not the Cannon silence but our own one that greatly resembles it anyway), Amia had a silence (and considering its timing) its pretty open to include or exclude whatever from both pre-WotSQ or post-WotSQ. The silence happening or not or even occurring slightly differently does not invalidate the 3.5 drow lore, all of the info about drow is still valid you just need to adjust for our setting not having some of the same stuff done to cities of deities or whatever.

IronAngel wrote:

What? Silence has nothing to do with Selvetarm..

No but it is the beginning of a progression of stories (WotSQ leads into the Lady Peneitent series) where all the drow gods are killed off at the end save Lolth. Which makes for some pretty boring drow imo. It also never happened in the "source books" of Forgotten Realms -3.5- but rather in the literature side of things. TSR and WotC both have many times split with the novels in terms of being directly canon. It seems like it was all build up for stuff that in most pnp campaigns would be dealt with in the "future" or during the campaign progression, which is why I say its not really using as intended. In short -

1. Have drow with multiple gods and thus a greater platform and spectrum for drow roleplay.

or

2. Have the Silence happen for a nominal event that most players wont even be aware of to appease the grognards since we dont all read the novels and then leave drow with only one goddess who is much more powerful.

I know which seems more exciting to me. Just doing something because it "should" be done (which is highly debatable imo) seems superfluous especially since in -my- time in the UD I didn't see many of these players commenting on it playing any characters that would be directly affected by such (eg drow players).

Even people advocating for post-silence aren't suggesting we go the whole nine yards with the death of the drow gods. I figured that just went without saying.

Most of us are under the impression that a middling-period can be found, where certain cities are destroyed but the gods don't get killed.

I think thats a rather large assumption and I've not seen too much above to make such an observation viable. Selvetarm dies in 1375 DR which isn't far off so perfectly in the realm of reason that if we were doing one thing from the novel then naturally the next thing would happen too. I am just saying this all seems like solving a problem that we don't have to appease players that aren't really involved with such things anyway and on top of which don't seem to entirely know the rather obscure lore well enough to make implementation a clean process instead of having the imagination and flexibility to imagine a world where things went a little differently.

Lady penitent is most certainly full of stupid shit and should not be included (really shouldn't even have been made) but WotSQ in of itself isn't too bad.

However it is not an all or nothing, have the silence have occurred, have Lolth be a greater deity if you want and destroy or wreck or keep what drow cities you like, just decide what happened for the Amia cannon FR, it really shouldn't be too hard, both the amian history in the UD and the cannon lore are "relatively" limited when in comes down to it (at least compared to a lot of other FR stuff) so making changes and the effects those have a fairly contained.

The problem, as I understand it, is that for years and years, it's been the common assumption among drow players that Eryndlyn and Ched Nasad are destroyed, which wouldn't have happened without the Silence. Like, players have made it part of their collective backgrounds that they're refugees from the fall of Ched Nasad, and et cetera.

I have to say I agree with you equalizer (Lady Penitent ruined drow) but one has to ask themselves why all the effort to half appease a piece of canon that ultimately would be "forced" in and then half heartedly followed when a dm could have just spent the time doing something they are creatively interested in and suits the server better in the first place. Its just doing something for the sake of doing it.

Addendum: I've never heard players mention the fall of Eryndlyn or Ched Nasad personally in my nearly full year in the underdark as one of its most active players before I left.

There are plenty of destroyed drow cities that they could retcon to, or settlements or just houses losing status in one city. Plus Ched can still get destroyed, or partially destroyed or not at all. It isn't that big of an issue, especially since its backstory, important yes, but mostly just to the individual character and things like that are small enough as a part of most characters that its an easy enough change.

And yeah, the whole Ched falling thing was always (Or at least for a LONG time) a matter of debate on whether it did or should have happened in amia's cannon.

Also when I say make it up and include the silence I DON'T mean the Cannon one, sure it can have as many of the same effect and the books can even hold mostly true if you want with those characters having all be important to it all. But amia already had a "silence" in game, use that as a basis.

So basically... Do what the Marvel-Multiverse thing does, mostly the same for a LOT of the Cannon but with some differences (especially at some "break-off" points)

The official Amia timeline for a significant standing period had both cities destroyed and no gods killed, which exacerbated any confusion and led to the current confusion. I think that's part of the issue really - people wrote their stories to reflect what was on the timeline, and then the timeline was retconned. Gurrrr.

Please no WotSQ.

Love,
Your Eilistraeen Players.

It's not even an issue of whether the books are good or not. We indiscriminately include every other series from that time and some later than it.

I have a feeling Gravitas doesn't actually know what we're talking about or what the master plan behind the Amia timeline and canon policy is. Nothing could be clearer: we wanted to cut off the official timeline at a point when major changes started happening to pave the way for 4e, so that as many potential story hooks would be included but the silly conclusions would be left out of our loreverse. Thus, the Elven Crusade has begun and the Fey'ri war is underway (if in a lull), but Myth Drannor wasn't purged and restored. The Silence happened and all the related events recorded in City of the Spider Queen, The Underdark etc. but that drow chick didn't go around killing gods (which happens later). The Risen Sun heresy is underway, but nobody knows if it's right or not and Lathander hasn't been replaced by Amaunator yet. Khelben hasn't died and resurrected the elven kingdom from the Crown Wars period on the High Moor.

There was no "appeasement" involved. I read the relevant books, or synopses thereof, decided that 1372 is the point before which everything is OK, and handpicked the stories we wanted to use after that. Not only were they handpicked, the "Faerûn post-1372" chapter in the timeline was written specifically to clarify the state of unfinished plots. As the server master narrative progressed, DMs could fill in how those events turned out in our universe. Nothing confusing, nothing half-assed, but a deliberate plan to write our own server lore based on the solid ground we then established. The purpose was to set in stone the Amia canon of literature, so we could know once and for all which books were part of our setting and which weren't, and then have free reins to build up from that. So that never again would we have to discuss whether some book is canon or not, because the selection had been made.

Pity so much was lost over the years.

Yay Lore Holes! *sarcasm*

So, here is a question for all old players that could potentially remember: what was the Amian Silence like? This will help me figure out just what the stage is supposed to be.

serbiris wrote:

Even people advocating for post-silence aren't suggesting we go the whole nine yards with the death of the drow gods. I figured that just went without saying.

Well the thing people need to remember is that they didn't die until way later. In fact, they didn't die until after the point where Amia lore splits from canon. So they are all safe, lol. Granted the Silence was the starting point of that stupid 4e/pre-4e asshattery but that doesn't mean it has to happen on Amia.

PS - All this makes me glad Zrae is from a non-Silence affected city XD

P Three wrote:

Please no WotSQ.

Love,
Your Eilistraeen Players.

Why?

A lack of spells and only silence in response to prayers is what I know. I think there was general bickering over who had angered Lolth and who we should sacrifice to make it better. I am not sure, but I think Nekh and Straz were DMs already and in charge of drow, they might remember more. Given I was relatively new and played a male warrior, I didn't have access to the ins and outs of temple life.

Even my timing is pretty vague: I know it was before I became DM in spring 2007, but in Ultrinnan after the fall of Udos in late 2005.

In fact, it may have been connected with Lolth granting the spider brooches (jade and metal) to the matrons and naming Arabett first house. I don't remember, but it could be that the idea was originally for her to watch the houses scuffle for power while she was silent and then elevate the one that pleased her most. That, of course, would have worked quite well with the global Silence too, as she'd reward those who kept the faith and order while she was gone. That event was in February 2006. Didi could know, too, if it was connected (anyone seen her or her husband around?):

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7571

Drow folks, be aware that no matter what we aren't killing gods and rocking the boat on cosmology.

The question is the state of the rest of the Underdark itself and how thing happened in a fashion that didn't have gods all directly asking to get knifed (or sworded in this case) in the back.

DustSpray101 wrote:

in a fashion that didn't have gods all directly asking to get knifed (or sworded in this case) in the back.

Easy: Eilistraee bitched up and didn't kill anyone. Just like a whoredancer would

:twisted:

<3

Its hard remembering the exact details of the silence Amia had back then, especially since I was playing a male too and the Temple and priestesses at the time were doing a very good job about being guarded about a lot of what was going on (didn't want males getting uppity among other things).

I don't remember it being relate to the broaches though. Also since my memory is horrible, and so I can get my times straight, the silence happened a bit after the "Ultrinnan Games" (inter-house competitions that determined rankings) Stuff right?

Also ainjyll (if he recalls, and you can manage to contact him) would be a good person to ask about it too since he was playing Bree'nye back then.

DustSpray101 wrote:

Drow folks, be aware that no matter what we aren't killing gods and rocking the boat on cosmology.

The question is the state of the rest of the Underdark itself and how thing happened in a fashion that didn't have gods all directly asking to get knifed (or sworded in this case) in the back.

How long did it take from the moment that Lolth went silent, to when the first drow deity died?

Aeqvinox wrote:

How long did it take from the moment that Lolth went silent, to when the first drow deity died?

Three years and five months from the beginning of the Silence. Two years and nine months after the 8-month Silence. The events are, both causally and chronologically, quite separate. Deities died in a chess match between Eilistraee and Lolth, nothing to do with Vhaeraun and Selvetarm wrestling during the Silence. It's not just a pedantic distinction; that's actually a big rift in comparison to the other stopping points we've chosen (such as leaving the Last Mythal trilogy unfinished).

It's not just cities, but organizations like the Scourged Legion and Jaezred Chaulssin that this affects, by the way. Also, the lull in Lolth's activity supports the activity of other churches on Amia. I feel it was one of the better things to happen to the Underdark, because it shook up the stagnant Lolthite regime and gave tools for faithful of Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee, Eilistraee and other gods to push the advantage and carve out more space and authority for themselves. It also put Duergar back on the map of power politics. Without the Silence, the dominance of not only Lolth, but drow culture in the Underdark remains unruffled. Which, I'm sure we agree, is unfortunate. (Not saying there aren't other ways we can invent to shake it up, and events in Amia have done that, but it is a global cause and explanation we should make the most of.)

Right. So why not just move the "'ere be Amia" pole, from right before the Silence, to right after the Silence?

The Amian timeline regarding the drow would then include the fall of Ched Nasad, fall of Maerimydra, the slave rebellion in Menzo, and whatever else happened during that time, which is mostly what every drow player cares about - have their character backgrounds valid again, and as Iron said, give the non-Lolthite drow a bit more space. No Dark Seldarine dies, Lolth becomes a greater deity.

Can this be so simple, or am i missing a bunch of important stuff? I admit i'm not wisest when it comes to FR lore.

Aeqvinox wrote:

Can this be so simple, or am i missing a bunch of important stuff? I admit i'm not wisest when it comes to FR lore.

Nope, you're not missing anything. I believe that's basically what we're all advocating.

So Dusty, what are your thoughts on this? Can we do it in some relatively simple manner?

Still reading. Will comment more once I am done rereading the series.

Because Mimiron referenced the fall of Ched Nasad in a great PC Story post, and my char is also from Ched Nasad, I have to ask - Do we have a decision on this yet?

Thanks

Wrapped up and had a chat with the rest of the Team. Amia-verse Lore is as follows:

There was a brief Silence due to Lolth shifting the Demon Web Pits out of the Abyss.
The Lichdrow Dyrr perished before the Silence even begun as a result of jealous students overcoming his golem's wards. As a result, the events leading to the Lady Penitent Series (and much of the War of the Spider Queen) never occurred.
Selvetarm and Eilistrae are both alive and well.

The following cities were directly effected:

Maerimydra: It is firmly in under the control of Drow faithful to Kiaransalee.
Ched Nasad: Lolth was silent just long enough for rebel Drow to sack it, as is described in the WotSQ.
Eryndlyn: Lolth's Silence was not long enough for those faithful to her rivals to unite and lay waste to her followers. Lolthites are still there, and still largely balanced in numbers to the followers of the rest of the Dark Seldarine.
Chaulssin: The city is firmly Vhaerunite. What resistance against them had existed was squashed (sometimes literally).
Menzoberranzan: Events on Amia play out pretty much the same. They came out ahead slightly due to the shorter length of Lolth's Silence.

That is a very neat summary. I reckon it will make it into the timeline if and when someone gets around to updating it?

3.5 Campaign Journal (RotA, Silence of Lolth)

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