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*cough* You should probably edit out some of that, lest an unsuspecting squeamish person read it.

You could also use the obfuscate tag and put a disclaimer above it

I am not squeemish but I have an overactive imagenation which makes immersing myself fairly easy but has its drawbacks. I once watched a zombie movie (Dawn of the dead I think) with my cousins at Christmas so I couldnt back out of watching really.
I had sleeping trouble for 2 weeks after and occasional vivid nightmares untill March. I try to never watch horror movies or movies with much suspense and a friend screens any movies in the cinema before he suggest to go and see them to me.

For that reason I am very glad I am protected from overly graphic torture here. I am going to respond to some things I read and which I felt strongly about here.

LordSithaelon wrote:

Where does one draw the line?

When someone present asks you to draw it.

MyOwnDestiny wrote:

I should not watch graphic films in the privacy of my bedroom just in case my neighbor is a peepingtom? Come on? Really?

This argument isnt relevant to me; Amia is not your bedroom. Amia is the sandbox nice mister Disco lets us all play in. Therefore mister Disco sets the rules and people in his sandbox should follow them or mister Disco may send you from the sandbox.

Dark Immolation wrote:

See, that is a problem I have with this idea of graphic. As an aspiring author, the second one seems fine and actually quite conducive to RP, while the first seems lazy. What is the point of the torture if it doesn't imply some meaningful sense of misdoing to one of the parties? "Okay, we kidnap you and take off your fingernails and pull out one eye." "Okay, I guess my character is... pissed about that, or whatever." Pathos is developed through action and diction. You abridge that, you abridge the story. The act should have as much or as little description to get the point across that something meaningful, and assumptively ill-spirited, is being done here. You should feel something.

I play Amia for fun. A nice way to escape the real world for a little perhaps. I really dont need an urge to vomit/ feel horrified while someone is expressing his artistic feelings by making posts like you champion.
I dont think anyone needs to suffer that because of the above reasons.
Graphic torture isnt for everyone (torture is fine but I dont need the insidious details) and I think that there is plenty of leeway if you want to rp torture before you hit the graphic line but the sky is not the limit here.

I fervently hope it stays that way.

I mean, you could just not read it. It's not like you're required to be there. Disallowing an entire branch of RP because a few people think it's too scenic is not really fair. I mean, in your example, you mentioned you watched Dawn of the Dead, and then your imagination didn't like it. So you found out your limits, and you know that you don't need to do it again. But there are plenty of people who actually do appreciate that kind of art, so I'm not sure that's not fair to them if you don't let them do that. You keep saying sandbox, so just step outside of the sandbox and go into another one. I don't see the problem. I'm not squeamish at all, and actually since I've been on the internet this long, I've lost pretty much any sensitivity to vulgarity. That being said, I did play a good character who was squeamish, and would dip out any time there was blood, or whatever. So I mean, you could just do that, too, because that's not OOC, and could build character.

Needled247 wrote:

Disallowing an entire branch of RP because a few people think it's too scenic is not really fair.

This, in my oppinion is the most important thing to take from this debate so far.

What if, all of a sudden people start complaining about casual, "tea-drinking" RP? Would we have to limit that as well then? Or should we start calling Amia a social server instead of a roleplaying server, because we cater to that crowd as much as we do?

Limitations does not make a server great, it limits it in the greatness it can achieve.

There is a huge differance between tea drinking which isnt against server rules and never was and graphic torture that is.

Graphic torture isnt a whole branch of rp either. Its an extremety of rp much like cybering and some other things I wont even mention.

I doubt many pnp groups gather for a nice evening of graphic torture.

Well, I can see the advantage of disallowing torture. It has nothing to do with the squeamish people(who are squeamish all in their own right, of course) but more to do with the fact that it could be abused and possibly may even be the subject of much bickering. Even if you allowed it based on both parties agreeing to it, I can see many people regretting their decision and demanding it be taken back so that their character does not lose certain sensitive areas, arms, legs, eyes, eyelids etc. and creating one hell of a ruckus over it.

To the people trying to shut the topic down because they think it's been 'done to death' or that it's 'pointless to discuss rules'. The difference between playing a game and watching theater is that one is interactive and subject to the community that plays it while the other is something you sit back, watch, and enjoy.

Mmmm torture... graphic torture. *drools*
Going to need some time in a bdsm club now.

Seriously I'm all for. It's just text, no need for any limit in my eyes. No one above 12 can possibly be disturbed by it.
That's what I think anyway. Feel free to ignore me in this.

Hudson wrote:

... and some other things I wont even mention.

Go on.

Graphic torture is like cybering?

Okay. The strawman argument returns. Loviatar the BDSM sex goddess. What possible RP could ever come of it other than whipping slaves and pleasure, and maybe even scenes from 50 shades of gray!!@!@

No, I think graphic torture might be decent if your character is trying to enstill fear, and despair into another player, because well, that's why people torture people. They don't torture people to BDSM them all the time. Fuck logic.

Also, nobody gathers for a night of graphic torture during D&D, but nobody gathers for a night of tea drinking either. The point is, some shit can happen, and you can deal with it when it happens.

Did you even read my post Needled? I wrote that graphic torture, like cybering, is an extreme form of rp.

And yes, people do gathering for an evening of tea drinking.

Yeah, reading is good.

Also, you don't -have to- RP using graphic torture to instill fear. It can occur after fading to black.

And people do gather for a night of torture, but that's not the point. PnP folk probably don't gather around for a session of tea-drinking, all peaceful RP.

That's not the point though, and the fact that graphic torture used to be legal just meanst that it is not compareable to cybering, since cybering was always (at least as long as I can recall) illegal, and I don't think even really debated either.

Graphic torture is not an extremety either. You can't just say that "since I find it extreme, then it must be an extremety." If you could, everything would be extreme in someone's eyes and thus, by default it everything would be extreme.

I'm shocked that a small number of people are willing to disregard what other people see as a good opportunity for RP, and just continuously attempt to undermine this debate when in fact a change to the rule would never, ever, ever come around to bite them on their ass. I mean, how self-centered can you be? :roll:

I dunno, I'd say graphic torture is kind of extreme. It's the willful decision to inflict pain for the purpose of making the subject suffer (to various ends). People often say it's worse than death (you hear about victims begging to be "put out of their misery" with regards to torture). The fact that it's graphic means it's especially evocative. I don't know if it's comparable to cybering but it's definitely an extreme arguably beyond homicide. How much worse can one person do to another that's not classified as torture or murder, y'know?

Dakotaen wrote:

a change to the rule would never, ever, ever come around to bite them on their ass. I mean, how self-centered can you be?

... Re-read this and tell me what's wrong with the logic here.

Lord-Hadeis wrote:

No one above 12 can possibly be disturbed by it.

I'm 39.

serbiris wrote:

I dunno, I'd say graphic torture is kind of extreme. It's the willful decision to inflict pain for the purpose of making the subject suffer (to various ends). People often say it's worse than death (you hear about victims begging to be "put out of their misery" with regards to torture). The fact that it's graphic means it's especially evocative. I don't know if it's comparable to cybering but it's definitely an extreme arguably beyond homicide. How much worse can one person do to another that's not classified as torture or murder, y'know?

Dakotaen wrote:

a change to the rule would never, ever, ever come around to bite them on their ass. I mean, how self-centered can you be?

... Re-read this and tell me what's wrong with the logic here.

As for the first part, we're talking about consentual roleplay, not real life. No one is actually getting tortured, aside from the PC.

And I've re-read that a few times, and I still don't see anything wrong with the logic. A low number of people is trying to keep a venue of roleplay away from everyone who might want to use that option in their own RP without forcing it on anyone. I'd say that's fairly self-centered.

Naivatkal wrote:

Also, you don't -have to- RP using graphic torture to instill fear. It can occur after fading to black.

Naivatkal wrote:

Also, you don't -have to- RP using graphic torture to instill fear. It can occur after fading to black.

That's a perfectly reasonable way to handle things, all things considered. No amount of actually playing the torture out would really give the rest of the role-play more or less strength. This is because in the end, it comes down to the people behind the PCs. It's more or less a flavor thing, and I made some points on this several posts above.

Dakotaen wrote:

I'm shocked that a small number of people are willing to disregard what other people see as a good opportunity for RP, and just continuously attempt to undermine this debate when in fact a change to the rule would never, ever, ever come around to bite them on their ass. I mean, how self-centered can you be? :roll:

You made a fair argument untill this line.

So you really think Disco and the staff are selfish for forbidding you indulging yourself in graphic torture on a server they maintain and strive to keep alive and interesting?

Also, disagreeing with you is not undermining the debate.

Liz wrote:

Lord-Hadeis wrote:

No one above 12 can possibly be disturbed by it.

I'm 39.

There you go! No problem then.

The argument that "this isn't real life" would apply to cyber as well. But my counter to your point is the fact that we self-identify with these characters and empathise with them, which makes it a pretty big deal however. As big a deal as is possible given the medium.

Okay. Your argument is that the rule change can't affect them, but their motivations against it is self-centred. That doesn't make any sense.

My argument is almost entirely not self-motivated however, and I think you need to understand that at least in order to be less patronising in your responses. I can accept that you believe the rule change would enrich roleplay. I don't disagree. The ruling either way will have minimal effect on me personally. However it is my judgement that the cost of causing discomfort (since there will be cases where consent can't be offered) isn't worth the gain. I'd appreciate being treated with a little more respect than is being shown, and I daresay it's not helping your case.

Lord-Hadeis wrote:

Liz wrote:

Lord-Hadeis wrote:

No one above 12 can possibly be disturbed by it.

I'm 39.

There you go! No problem then.

Eh. Some people are wired differently. Some can handle the gritty details, others can't. I think that's something that should be respected.

Darn, I was going to edit and people responded:

I forgot to add that cybering and torture are inequal comparisons. Cybering is online sexual relations and torture (in this instance) is online infliction of intense pain. Sexual relations (in a nutshell) are harmless while the infliction of intense pain is not.

In my opinion, cybering is harmless and isn't that big of a deal (read: I completely understand the reasons for banning it from the server and agree it is not needed to add value to RP). Torture is different in that if someone (even a DM) happens to accidentally observe it it can be traumatic for them, for whatever reason.

Frankly it's childish to call people inconsiderate when you cannot properly observe both sides of the situation.

Hudson wrote:

Dakotaen wrote:

I'm shocked that a small number of people are willing to disregard what other people see as a good opportunity for RP, and just continuously attempt to undermine this debate when in fact a change to the rule would never, ever, ever come around to bite them on their ass. I mean, how self-centered can you be? :roll:

You made a fair argument untill this line.

So you really think Disco and the staff are selfish for forbidding you indulging yourself in graphic torture on a server they maintain and strive to keep alive and interesting?

Also, disagreeing with you is not undermining the debate.

No, I never mentioned the staff. I'm referring to the very few people in this thread who seem to want to keep graphic torture RP banned for the reason that they don't like it.

As for the undermining, I'm referring to that exact thing. The idea that is constantly hinted to that "graphic torture is bad and for bad people," in an attempt to make that the deciding factor. Come to think of it, I'm not sure if "undermining" is the right word for it. <.< Either way, it sucks. I have yet to see constructive criticism of the idea in this thread.

serbiris wrote:

Okay. Your argument is that the rule change can't affect them, but their motivations against it is self-centred. That doesn't make any sense.

How so? Attempting to keep something from being available to everyone, simply because "you" don't like it, seems pretty damn self-centered to me. "I don't like it, so no one else can have it either."

serbiris wrote:

My argument is almost entirely not self-motivated however, and I think you need to understand that at least in order to be less patronising in your responses. I can accept that you believe the rule change would enrich roleplay. I don't disagree. The ruling either way will have minimal effect on me personally. However it is my judgement that the cost of causing discomfort (since there will be cases where consent can't be offered) isn't worth the gain. I'd appreciate being treated with a little more respect than is being shown, and I daresay it's not helping your case.

If you find my answers to be patronising, I apologise. Admittedly I am getting a bit heated over this, mostly because there don't seem to be any actual reason for it not to be here.

How will there be any reason where consent can't be offered? If consent is required for it to even happen, there will always be an opportunity to consent. If no such chance is given, the playing doing the torture is breaking the rules and should be reported. If you're talking about shadow dancers again, I won't bother commenting. In fact, the idea you have that I'm disrespecting you probably came as a result to my responses on that matter earlier in the thread, and I've already repeated myself on that subject. :wink:

Dakotaen wrote:

I have yet to see constructive criticism of the idea in this thread.

Naivatkal wrote:

Also, you don't -have to- RP using graphic torture to instill fear. It can occur after fading to black.

Selective reading is selective.

Dakotaen wrote:

Hudson wrote:

Dakotaen wrote:

Many words

Do some reading up! I gave some constructive criticism, as did Naivatkal.

Naivatkal wrote:

Dakotaen wrote:

I have yet to see constructive criticism of the idea in this thread.

Naivatkal wrote:

Also, you don't -have to- RP using graphic torture to instill fear. It can occur after fading to black.

Selective reading is selective.

That's not selective at all, I just don't see it as constructive critisism. It's simply stating that you find the status quo to be good enough. And if you'd bothered reading what I wrote earlier (selective reading certainly is selective), you'd know that I'm fine with doing the whole "fade to black" thing, I just think the option to do more should be open to those who'd like to make use of it when both sides agree to do so.

The differences between the two are, of course many, but the most important one is that not fading to black allows for RP, fade to black allows the, in some cases prisoner to sit around alone, not getting the benefit of RP until their captor feels like giving it to them.

So yeah, I've read what you wrote, even before you felt the need to quote yourself a few replies later, but there's nothing constructive about stating what has already been said plenty of times in this thread, and what is already the status quo. :wink:

EDIT: Oh, and I guess that response applies to Caldera as well.

Dakotaen wrote:

Hudson wrote:

Dakotaen wrote:

I'm shocked that a small number of people are willing to disregard what other people see as a good opportunity for RP, and just continuously attempt to undermine this debate when in fact a change to the rule would never, ever, ever come around to bite them on their ass. I mean, how self-centered can you be? :roll:

You made a fair argument untill this line.

So you really think Disco and the staff are selfish for forbidding you indulging yourself in graphic torture on a server they maintain and strive to keep alive and interesting?

Also, disagreeing with you is not undermining the debate.

No, I never mentioned the staff. I'm referring to the very few people in this thread who seem to want to keep graphic torture RP banned for the reason that they don't like it.

As for the undermining, I'm referring to that exact thing. The idea that is constantly hinted to that "graphic torture is bad and for bad people," in an attempt to make that the deciding factor. Come to think of it, I'm not sure if "undermining" is the right word for it. <.< Either way, it sucks. I have yet to see constructive criticism of the idea in this thread.

The staff made the ruling against graphical torture so I dont see how thats differant from people who argue against removing it in this thread.

I think the remark about yet having to see contructive criticism in the thread immature. I see plenty of it but you seem to choose to ignore it.
I dont know what else people could argue against it then that they think Amia isnt the place for such an extreme form of rp.
I didnt say it was bad and most defenitely didnt say anyone wanting it was bad or sick in the brain.

I said it was an extreme (note: extreme doesnt have to be bad) form of rp and I said I personally would be affected by it in an unhealthy way and the combination of those two is why I rather not see it on Amia. Which is my right. You have your right to say you want it and I have mine to say I dont.

I am quite open for debare but like Serbiris I can do without being called selfish and 'undermining your arguments' when I am merely posting my views.

No, what I was hinting at is that there is zero added value to allowing people to actually RP graphic torture. It's akin to cybering in that there is zero added value to allowing people to actually RP having sex. You can fade to black with the understanding that their PC is going to be brutally tortured without RPing it just like you can fade to black with the understanding that your PCs are going to have wild monkey sex without RPing it.

To clarify: The criticism is that there is no inherent value of actually RPing it, just the satisfaction of doing so. Just like with cybering (albeit with a different form of 'satisfaction', unless you swing that way).

In addition I have read what you said and I am not being selective. I was speaking of the community in general, not you specifically.

But I'm here for the satisfaction. Besides rp is great for the things you cannot do in real life. Dirty kinky sex is easy enough tp get in real life. Casting magic, beating people to death with weapons and torture you cannot. Hence the rp server is a fine place for it and good rp needs detailed descriptions, very detailed.

Dakotaen wrote:

EDIT: Oh, and I guess that response applies to Caldera as well.

How so? I only gave the contrasting argument. Criticism doesn't imply agreement or disagreement. There are two sides of this fence. In my post earlier, I merely pointed out how it can go wrong. In fact, that situation is an example because I've seen it happen before on my own server or on other servers. People change their minds and sometimes don't want to live with the consequence of that.

Several people have said a bunch of constructive things.

Dakotaen wrote:

serbiris wrote:

Okay. Your argument is that the rule change can't affect them, but their motivations against it is self-centred. That doesn't make any sense.

How so? Attempting to keep something from being available to everyone, simply because "you" don't like it, seems pretty damn self-centered to me. "I don't like it, so no one else can have it either."

Firstly I have repeatedly stated that my personal position is completely neutral with regards to the direct effect of the rule. It's definitely not about what /I/ would prefer on this server. Secondly, if you're saying that the ruling won't affect them but their reasoning is self-centred, that doesn't make sense. It can't be self-centred if the ruling won't affect them. This means that either you're not saying what you mean, or you think their argument is nonsensical, which is problematic.

Dakotaen wrote:

serbiris wrote:

My argument is almost entirely not self-motivated however, and I think you need to understand that at least in order to be less patronising in your responses. I can accept that you believe the rule change would enrich roleplay. I don't disagree. The ruling either way will have minimal effect on me personally. However it is my judgement that the cost of causing discomfort (since there will be cases where consent can't be offered) isn't worth the gain. I'd appreciate being treated with a little more respect than is being shown, and I daresay it's not helping your case.

If you find my answers to be patronising, I apologise. Admittedly I am getting a bit heated over this, mostly because there don't seem to be any actual reason for it not to be here.

How will there be any reason where consent can't be offered? If consent is required for it to even happen, there will always be an opportunity to consent. If no such chance is given, the playing doing the torture is breaking the rules and should be reported. If you're talking about shadow dancers again, I won't bother commenting. In fact, the idea you have that I'm disrespecting you probably came as a result to my responses on that matter earlier in the thread, and I've already repeated myself on that subject. :wink:

Spies /and/ DMs, yes. It's simply unfair for you to shift the burden of not being able to detail torture RP into a burden of potential discomfort on those players. Neither of us are going to budge on this issue so we should agree to disagree. But see, this is my problem with your argument that the people against you are self-centred - you are being equally self-centred. Yes, you say that it's not just for you, it's for the other people who would clearly prefer the ruling change. But that's exactly my position as well - it's not for me, it's for the sake of people who are also personally against the change. EVERYONE is being selfish, not just one side, not just the other! That's my point here. It's an entirely selfish, personal matter, and we're all looking out for numero uno, and numero people-who-think-like-us (or in my case, I'm prioritising their potential discomfort over potential enjoyment, which is my prerogative, and the alternate position is equally valid). This is a tricky question of judgements and none of us really have the perspective to think outside our boxes. I don't even know if DMs could make the right choice here. The status quo doesn't mean jack to me, but "drop it and leave it alone" is a perfectly acceptable policy with an issue that's clearly so very contentious.

ok guys, the past couple of posts with the exception of a few are venturing into the realm of flaming. Lets just keep this point/counter point in a valid discussion topic. There is 4 pages so far, and the DM staff has not shut it down. Degrade into baseless taunts and insults, and the discussion becomes pointless. "You close minded fool" or "your want for this or that is unneeded" is getting off point. Keep it civil with ideas and thoughts, and reasons behind them for debate. Eventually something will come from it, where nothing will come from asholery.

Naivatkal wrote:

To clarify: The criticism is that there is no inherent value of actually RPing it, just the satisfaction of doing so.

That is true, but only under the circumstances that the reason for the torture didn't have any real reason to take place in first place, and that can be said for the majority of RPing anyway. If you are just randomly torturing to be evil (muahahaha)? Then yes fade to black generally works just as well, but if you are trying to extract information, or its part of a sacrifice, or there is specific actual roleplay reasons to do the torture in a certain way and be able to react and respond then the fade to black method really is just taking away most of what you're actually trying to do.

Edit: also the difference to me between wanting to allow it and wanting to disallow it (both of which I think are valid views) is that allowing it is the inclusive choice, if you don't want it then nothing would change for you (since you can opt out of it happening if you're involved) but other people can enjoy it if they want, where as not allowing it is a exclusive choice if you don't want it nothing changes as well but if you do want that type of RP then you are banned from doing it.

Thats a good argument but I think you can do that without being overly graphic just as well.

I dont doubt you can have a satisfying session if you are creative and describe mostly what you do instead of what your actions cause exactly on the victim.

I think its about finding a balance that suits those involved there.

I don't disagree, and I still think that we should have some stuff banned for simply being sort of gore for gore's sake, I do think however that the rules need to be better defined than they are now and potentially (based on how those would read when better defined under the current rules) given a bit more room to describe and RP torture while still keeping it from just being able to become a pointless gorefest.

Despite conventional wisdom (and/or popular opinion), the inclusive choice isn't inherently superior to the exclusive choice, even though inclusive choices are generally the more sound ones with respect to free will and such.

Given the differant perception of people on what constitutes graphic torture I think you could write an essay on it and still have holes in it.

But I agree, it would be nice if it was as clear as possible so no one accidently goes to far or inhibits his/her rp too much unnecesarily.

My argument is not self-centered. My argument has nothing to do with my opinion on torture. I did spend some effort trying to make people understand why I don't like torture, but my main point has nothing to do with that. My opinion on whether I like graphic torture is entirely separate from my opinion on whether we should allowit. I'll repeat it here for a fourth freaking time, because I'm annoyed that it keeps getting dismissed as self-centered unconstructive whining.

Amia is better off not allowing it because we don't want to be seen as the kind of place that allows it. We want to be seen as extremely welcoming and friendly and inclusive, and people will not see us that way if we loosen our policies towards the more extreme deviant styles of RP.

THIS IS NOT AN OPINION ABOUT WHAT I LIKE. It's an opinion about how I think Amia can best maintain a vibrant and growing community. I really, truly am not lying about that. I would feel the same way even if I loved graphic torture RP and thought it was just a happy jolly rocking good time. I would even then, still be against allowing it on Amia. Characterizing my stance as self-centered or nonconstructive is just factually incorrect. My personal preferences don't enter into it, and my goal (keeping Amia alive and growing) is as constructive as it's possible to be.

I pretty much agree with Liz. You can throw up pages of the most horrible stuff you can think of and I'll have zero emotional reaction to it, doesn't mean I think it has a place here. Graphic torture is just kinda...self-indulgent evil-wanking. Look at how terrible I am! A competent roleplayer can have their character affected just as deeply by *You suffer this brand of torture* as they would by long pages of gore. Interrogation scenes could be a -small- exception, but I still think going into reams of detail is just masturbatory.

Liz wrote:

We want to be seen as extremely welcoming and friendly and inclusive,

I think it's hard to see this place as welcoming when people begin to insult each other over having different opinions about how things should be done.

This isn't pointed towards anyone in particular, just more of an observation.

Personal preferences do factor into it even if unintentionally since you seem to not be able to fathom that it would have any effect other than turning people off of the server, and honestly that is probably because you don't care for it yourself and so the idea that it might not bother people or that the server allowing the ability to have more RP freedom like that might actually attract people does not seem believable to you.

Now I personally don't know either way and really it would be hard to even guess if it would make some not come to amia or if it would attract more players or have no real effect either way. Although really I don't feel that it really matters anyway, amia should be amia (however that is) and if people like that they will play and if they don't then they won't which is ok too since it just wasn't the right fit for them then. We don't have to nor do I think we should as a server be about trying to just attract as many players as possible. We can be welcoming and inclusive and still maintain an identity and have things that certain people might not care too much for. Having lots of different sorts of RP can being inclusive to players are not mutually exclusive.

In fact I always believe that the more you can allow players to RP as the like (within limits of not REALLY bothering most other people) and still be welcoming than the more inclusive you are. I never understood how being inclusive is best served by not letting people do certain things. Its like saying teletubbies is for all ages, sure anyone CAN watch it and probably be "ok" with it but it certainly isn't FOR everyone.

I should really abandon this thread, because I disagree with almost everyone who has an opinion about this while simultaneously having minimal investment in the outcome.

Admittedly, I misread your post Hudson, so I guess I responded to the wrong thing, and for that I apologize.

Though, this discussion has been fairly circular, so I don't really feel as if my reply was that out of place. :/

All good Needled. Sorry I snapped but I was a little miffed at my argument being what I felt was twisted out of context.

I honestly think allowing such a thing as graphical descriptions of torture (with in game approval of the unfortunate party) wil draw in a greater variety people. After all it would be silly to force people to rp torture when it isn't their thing, you'd just waste time and some bloody good creativity on the side of the torturer. They can just pass on a summary of mutilations preformed. As a server Amia is already well populated with the brighter side of life people, giving some more room to those of the; guts in? Or guts out?... Mmm guts out! Philosophy of life will spicy things up without disturbing the rest. After all what is so horrible about getting a quick tell 'torture play?'. Nothing!

So come on you scared wussies embrace some diversity, come out of that inward looking irrational shell of xtc fuelled cuddling. Let those who want it embrace the knife, hammer, witch needles, wooden saw, tumb screws, anal hook, hot poker, spanish cat, scavenger's daughter, rack, judas cradle, romen chair, teeth pulling, finger removing, rat in the sak and many many more!

Liz wrote:

My argument is not self-centered. My argument has nothing to do with my opinion on torture. I did spend some effort trying to make people understand why I don't like torture, but my main point has nothing to do with that. My opinion on whether I like graphic torture is entirely separate from my opinion on whether we should allowit. I'll repeat it here for a fourth freaking time, because I'm annoyed that it keeps getting dismissed as self-centered unconstructive whining.

Amia is better off not allowing it because we don't want to be seen as the kind of place that allows it. We want to be seen as extremely welcoming and friendly and inclusive, and people will not see us that way if we loosen our policies towards the more extreme deviant styles of RP.

Liz, I accept and whole heartedly respect your personal opinions concerning this matter. Perhaps there are some using your personal opinions to twist things to suit their needs, or not. I can not speak for others. I would be the first, if I was not beaten to it, to defend your beliefs, and tell people if they do not like it, then they can cry a river, build a bridge and get the "bleep" over it.

But please, explain to me how allowing the RP mentioned will lessen the inviting appeal of Amia? You are making it sound like one lightened rule to include something, will turn all of us into depraved hedonistic despots, and that our RP will atract others like us, and turn Amia into something vile. I am going to an extreme with that analogy... I know... but the references still remain. I am interested to hear your thoughts and theories as to why.

Naivatkal wrote:

Also, you don't -have to- RP using graphic torture to instill fear. It can occur after fading to black.

I agree that you -DO NOT HAVE TO- RP it out... but there are some that prefer to, because it adds more in depth character background for them. I am one of those people where. Knowing what happens to my character, helps me build his future RP. My ideas of what happens, and the other persons ideas of what happens are going to be very different.... so forging future RP might be difficult with two separate ideas about what happened.

and I think this discussion is about that... the personal likes of including the type of RP and what it can bring to a characters make up. I am understanding of, and perfectly fine with the fact that it is not for everyone. But it seems like there are a few people saying, in not so many words, that I should just simply accept things and go along, and I cant do that. I would rather have a discussion like this to air out the opinions, and possibly come to some form of concensus rather than let it go unsettled.

And more over... it already happens IG... but it is done very hush hush. People are sneaking around to get the RP they want without having to worry about others getting pissed over it.

I'm not saying we'll turn into what you're describing there, Sithaelon. I'm saying we'll be perceived differently than we presently are.

Amia does not have a reputation as a server that goes the hard-core route on anything. We're the middle-of-the-road server. We like our FR lore, but don't mandate that anyone know anything about it (many FR servers do). We like realism in our RP, but don't go so far as to mechanically force characters to have to eat or sleep regularly (like I think Arelith does). We give players a broad range of ways to affect the server, but we don't give out permanent individual housing areas (like Sinfar does). We allow PVP (many RP servers don't), but we don't let it become a totally hands-off free-for-all (some servers do). And we allow characters to be tortured and have sex (some servers don't), but not to go overboard in the graphic descriptions of those things.

We're the "little bit of everything" server. We're not the place people go to for their niches and extremes. That's a positioning I think is worth protecting and encouraging.

Liz wrote:

We want to be seen as extremely welcoming and friendly and inclusive

We want to be seen as extremely welcoming, friendly and inclusive. Pepple will not see us that way if we ban one form of rp just because one part of the player base, who needs to have no part in it, spoils it for others.

Liz wrote:

I'm not saying we'll turn into what you're describing there, Sithaelon. I'm saying we'll be perceived differently than we presently are.

Amia does not have a reputation as a server that goes the hard-core route on anything. We're the middle-of-the-road server. We like our FR lore, but don't mandate that anyone know anything about it (many FR servers do). We like realism in our RP, but don't go so far as to mechanically force characters to have to eat or sleep regularly (like I think Arelith does). We give players a broad range of ways to affect the server, but we don't give out permanent individual housing areas (like Sinfar does). We allow PVP (many RP servers don't), but we don't let it become a totally hands-off free-for-all (some servers do). And we allow characters to be tortured and have sex (some servers don't), but not to go overboard in the graphic descriptions of those things.

We're the "little bit of everything" server. We're not the place people go to for their niches and extremes. That's a positioning I think is worth protecting and encouraging.

I understand what you are saying Liz... what I am asking of you, is to explain why you think the server will lessen if the avenues of this type of RP are opened. You cited reasons why Amia is what it is... but you have not specificaly said why Amia will become less. Without trying to sound like too much of an ass... I am asking you to give in depth explainations to your points.

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