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Dakotaen wrote:

Honestly, I'd say that that's just too bad, if we're talking about sneaks. You can't expect people to moderate their RP based on the possibility that shadow dancers are lurking.

... Well damn, this attitude makes me kinda get what Iron was saying. So you won't force it on someone who OOCly says no but someone who doesn't get a choice just gets "too bad, so sad"?

Also, having seen how creepy it can be to read just one line of some player's awful cyber, I'm sympathetic to any DMs who don't even want to stumble into a single sentence of that stuff.

serbiris wrote:

In unrelated news, thinking of the term "manicured lawn" is pure torture to me.

A writer pick. Isn't there just something disturbing about that? We humanized the grass somehow. It's awful!

Playing a sneak definitely takes a bottle of brain bleach sometimes.

Liz wrote:

Because you never know who's watching.

I could care less who's watching. Some people playing here are younger than legal adulthood.

serbiris wrote:

Dakotaen wrote:

Honestly, I'd say that that's just too bad, if we're talking about sneaks. You can't expect people to moderate their RP based on the possibility that shadow dancers are lurking.

So you won't force it on someone who OOCly says no but someone who doesn't get a choice just gets "too bad, so sad"?.

Here's the deal, if I, as a shadow dancer sneak around after people who don't know that I'm there, I can't expect them to moderate their RP based on their not knowing I'm present. I have no idea how that's a bad attitude to have in any way.

Last edited by Anyone on Mon, Oct 07 2013, 7:58 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I am actually more interested why everyone is arguing about that so much. I mean if you really want to do it, why you absolutely have to do it via open channels? You can do it either through private messaging or Skype as it was mentioned above. I mean if it's so important for someone... well... immersion. You should also try putting yourself on Amia administration team. If they'll allow those things in open channels, they'll either have to restrict the server to underage, and actually make sure that if you're participating in such RP, you're over certain age limit (which is different in several countries too) and not so easy since you can't even tell if you're talking to a man or woman most the time, and you asking about age... If you, on other hand, want many other people to see it... I just don't know, why you won't try play Sinfar then, for example? From what I've seen in my little excursion there, they're pretty open minded for all those type of things, though even there - there're some filters there which Amia DM will have to apply and support here too, if those restrictions will be lifted. I mean noone prohibits doing it here, just not crying out loudly about it, if you want it so much, but why do you want to make it public?

fine attitude so long as their RP is by the rules anyway

I'd frankly rather we not open the door on this server to "adult content" really. I like fantasy role play, not erotic fantasy role play and I can take my characters, and other people's characters much more seriously if they aren't all Sharessan/Sune worshipping succubi.

If we want that we can all go look at Sinfar. The underage thing is my real concern anyway. I'm not a fan of jail.

In regards to the whole Skype idea, it might just be a problem I have, but I have a much, much harder time getting in character that way. To the point where I'd rather just "fade to black" instead.

And Bob, no one is talking about "erotic fantasy role play," at least not that I can see. It certainly wasn't the purpose of this thread either.

I understand that, but when you restrict the age group that can play it's one of those things that gets pushed up on the agenda by the age group that's allowed. I'm not trying to use the slippery slope argument here, but I'd just rather not have it be in the realm of possibility.

Aiseth wrote:

serbiris wrote:

In unrelated news, thinking of the term "manicured lawn" is pure torture to me.

A writer pick. Isn't there just something disturbing about that? We humanized the grass somehow. It's awful!

IT IS. AND ETYMOLOGICALLY IT JUST AND ARGH OH GOD MY BRAIN WHAT MADNESS IS THIS AAAAAAHHHHH make it stop.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Liz wrote:

Because you never know who's watching.

I could care less who's watching. Some people playing here are younger than legal adulthood.

Which legality and/or whose rating systems, etc etc. I don't buy that legal adulthood really means anything in this situation.

Dakotaen wrote:

Here's the deal, if I, as a shadow dancer sneak around after people who don't know that I'm there, I can't expect them to moderate their RP based on their not knowing I'm present. I have no idea how that's a bad attitude to have in any way.

I'd call it a common courtesy out of respect for other people's feelings on principle, even if no one is there (and also what I said about DMs). Me, I'm good with watching whatever, there is plenty more cringeworthy stuff that's allowed on Amia regardless. So I'm not terribly worried about catching something awful because personally it's a "comes with the territory" thing and I'd deal. But. Your RP is not so important that you're within your right to make other people uncomfortable (and I hesitate to say that because determing just how sensitive is practical and how insensitive is acceptable is a bloody subjective mess which really just goes to say that we shouldn't move any lines if we can help it, too messy). You can say that it comes with the territory but then why moderate for people who don't give consent? Why don't the flies on the wall get any consideration? That's what I really want to know.

Also you can't really talk about allowing descriptive torture without also talking about allowing descriptive ERP. It's kind of the nature of the beast, since they often end up going hand in hand. And I'm pretty strongly against allowing either.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

I understand that, but when you restrict the age group that can play it's one of those things that gets pushed up on the agenda by the age group that's allowed. I'm not trying to use the slippery slope argument here, but I'd just rather not have it be in the realm of possibility.

Honestly, I'd never worry about that happening. It would take a fairly massive shift in Amia's playerbase and DM team for it to even come under consideration, torture RP allowed or not. There's a pretty big step from allowing consentual torture RP and letting the cyber-crowd run wild.

serbiris wrote:

Dakotaen wrote:

Here's the deal, if I, as a shadow dancer sneak around after people who don't know that I'm there, I can't expect them to moderate their RP based on their not knowing I'm present. I have no idea how that's a bad attitude to have in any way.

I'd call it a common courtesy out of respect for other people's feelings on principle, even if no one is there (and also what I said about DMs). Me, I'm good with watching whatever, there is plenty more cringeworthy stuff that's allowed on Amia regardless. So I'm not terribly worried about catching something awful because personally it's a "comes with the territory" thing and I'd deal. But. Your RP is not so important that you're within your right to make other people uncomfortable (and I hesitate to say that because determing just how sensitive is practical and how insensitive is acceptable is a bloody subjective mess which really just goes to say that we shouldn't move any lines if we can help it, too messy). You can say that it comes with the territory but then why moderate for people who don't give consent? Why don't the flies on the wall get any consideration? That's what I really want to know.

So you're fine with limiting/moderating you RP on an OOC level just in case someone might be watching? That sounds even worse to me than a worst case scenario of what you're saying. Anyone I can't see, who doesn't make their presence known, isn't someone I can acknowledge in the situation. If said shadow dancer were to send me a tell and ask for torture not to happen 'cause they're watching, and are uncomfortable with it, then fine, I'll not do torture. It's not the limit that imposes on me that I find to be a shame, it's the limitations they put on themselves. Where they might've gathered some information, they now get to see "*fade to black for torture*," and how anti-climactic is that?

Tanzek wrote:

Also you can't really talk about allowing descriptive torture without also talking about allowing descriptive ERP. It's kind of the nature of the beast, since they often end up going hand in hand.

I couldn't disagree more with this statement. Just because you allow one thing, you are never forced to even consider allowing another, completely unrelated thing.

// Ah no.

The only commonality between the two is both are graphic in content. They're a whole other kettle of fish aside from that.

Really, it is the same as walking in on your parents going at it on the kitchen table... and I still eat in the living room to this day...

Going to tells, makes people think something is happening that should not be happening... and I do not like having to window mode and open skype... because my comp freezes when I try to switch between them...

and I am not for sexualized RP or torture in any form. If the torture leads to the shredding of clothing, and violating of body, then it is S&M cybering...

I am talking about the type of RP that can really mess with someone... for example.. without going into detail.. I had a character once that led an entire army. I had another PC who swore himself to me to save his village, and as long as he was true to his vow, his people would be safe. He broke the oath, and action was taken. He was beaten to within an inch of his life, then forced to sit there on his knees, as every member of his village was loaded onto a ship, taken into the harbor, and one by one thrown overboard weighted down with large stone blocks to drown, then his wife was taken away as a slave, and his child was killed brutally; all while he was made to roll saves. And the subsequent RP after that was great because it opened up a truckload of new avenues.

Stuff like that, adds a little more flare to the character make up and subsequent RP rather than just "Now you will pay... (fade to black as torture begins)". There is no imagination, and no real basis to build on with that.

Last edited by Aiseth on Sun, Oct 06 2013, 23:40 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Err. Try not to get too hung up on the sexuality of pain. The internet is far too polluted with the mis-illustrations of love, we need not employ that problem further. To suggest that consenting torture and consenting sex go hand in hand is a heavy heavy statement that I do not think you intend to be making about yourselves here. Linguistically I think the word consent is the problem. It's one of those words that caters to sex generally.

This topic is about bruises, cuts, and despair.

I am like you though in that I am in the same boat of, when did sexuality become more repulsive than violence? But we did not make this table, we just have to eat off of it. Blood and guts it is.

Sithaelon, I'm not sure I'm understanding your point there. Nothing you just described is the sort of thing that would come up against the torture-description rule. Why does the rule get in the way of the situation you're describing?

I've been to some rather dark corners of the internet over the years So when I say that in the context of online text based RP that the two go hand in hand, i'm speaking from experience. And no I'm not trying to make some wider ranging comment of the relationship between pain and sex, I'm talking merely in the context of text based RP.

I really can't comment on ERP because I have never once seen any that was not just eye-gougingly awful. Just bad. So clearly it's just... on a different plane of existence to me, I don't get it, don't wanna get it, eyes gonna glaze over if it goes on (if I'm lucky). But I guess that gives me a little empathy for folks who don't wanna see torture deets.

Dakotaen wrote:

So you're fine with limiting/moderating you RP on an OOC level just in case someone might be watching? That sounds even worse to me than a worst case scenario of what you're saying. Anyone I can't see, who doesn't make their presence known, isn't someone I can acknowledge in the situation. If said shadow dancer were to send me a tell and ask for torture not to happen 'cause they're watching, and are uncomfortable with it, then fine, I'll not do torture. It's not the limit that imposes on me that I find to be a shame, it's the limitations they put on themselves. Where they might've gathered some information, they now get to see "*fade to black for torture*," and how anti-climactic is that?

Think about this for a moment. Worst case scenario of moderating RP for OOC reasons: you break a little immersion and you have to power on through.
Worst case scenario of not moderating while someone is watching: you trigger a psychotic break (more baseline comparison: distress in a fellow human being outweighing annoyance from immersion loss). Seriously, this sort of stuff can really mess with people. You really don't know who's watching. Sure it sucks that you don't get to RP it smoothly but we'll deal.

Asking a spy to send you a tell notifying you of their presence is highly unreasonable. We deal with a lot of metagaming as it is and even players who are good about it get their behaviour nudged a little with that knowledge, quite often. It's hard. Yeah sure, you can argue that squeamish people at least have a recourse: send a tell risk being metagamed, subsequently wasting time and RP and being cross with the other players involve, or risk being exposed to something highly uncomfortable, but it's a pretty crappy choice and I don't think it's really worth it. But that's the entire issue here - it's all so wrapped up in subjectives. I can sit through about anything as long as I'm not put in a position where I have to make someone else uncomfortable, but that's just my personal feelings on this. No one can really determine if going one way or another will really be "better" for the server. Hence the opposition in this thread. Only good change would be some kinda compromise, as I alluded to earlier.

And frankly with all the spying I get done if someone ended a session with a quick old "*and johnny got tortured and we all went home*" I'd be a little relieved ;D (srs answer no it doesn't bother me, anticlimaxes are normal around here... *stealth burn on me?*)

Liz... my point to it was... the situation I described.. had A LOT of RP and description behind it... it was not just plain as I put it here, because I was not going to go into details like that.

The torture endured by everyone involved was graphic in nature, to have a bigger impact; and that is what we are discussing here... graphic torture. I would like to have the option of describing to the other player what is going on to burn the image in their head... and have it lead to more RP fun later.

Quote:

Only good change would be some kinda compromise

Torturing will be allowed only on Mondays, Tuesdays and Fridays. BDSM for Wednesdays, Erotical fantasies will go for weekend, with strongly presence of DMs and perquisite forum permission only .

The best way to handle it is the PG-13 way if such is wanting to be done, where a violent act about to be preformed is not actually shown, but "fade to black" that implies such a act was done, without actually showing it.

Anyone wrote:

Quote:

Only good change would be some kinda compromise

Torturing will be allowed only on Mondays, Tuesdays and Fridays. BDSM for Wednesdays, Erotical fantasies will go for weekend, with strongly presence of DMs and perquisite forum permission only .

But seriously, this is how I feel about this thread in general.

This doesn't even need to be discussed any further. The subject is to clear cut in my opinion. We aren't an 18+ server.

Torture isn't 18+ and if that is the point then we (officially) stopped being a pg-13 server several years back as well.
Also I will point out once more that under the current rules I CAN describe torturing another character, I simply cannot describe it "graphically" a term which isn't too well defined currently, and further the "anyone could be watching!" argument is rather moot since if you are watching and no one knows you can still send a tell. If you are taking part in RP but no one else knows then the ownership for moderating the content of that RP if it is ofending you lies on you and not the people who are unaware of your participation at all.

To say it does not need to be discussed further and it is clear cut to me is BS. It is a totaltarian view, which I do not care for, and I am certain others wont care for either. It is the same as saying our opinions mean nothing so we should all just shut up and go along with what others want....

I agree that the discussion itself is legitimate. The question isn't one of absolutes, but rather one of where to draw a line. Presently, Amia requires its players to give up a small (very, very small, IMHO) bit of their RP freedom, in order to maintain the most inclusive stance possible. I think that keeping Amia as welcoming as possible to as many people as possible just outweighs the negligible amount of RP depth or resonance that we sacrifice by requiring that graphic torture happen implicitly, rather than explicitly.

I saw this thread earlier today and forced myself not to respond. I am only responding now as having read through all of this idiocy, I can no longer contain my disgust with the small mindedness of some. My sincere apologies to anyone that is offended but I cannot even begin to fathom telling someone that they should not do something a certain way just because someone may be watching. I should not watch graphic films in the privacy of my bedroom just in case my neighbor is a peepingtom? Come on? Really?

I have, on several occasions, had my characters tortured. I would have been devastated if the RP was leading a certain way and then was told "fade to black for torture". What?!? I don't get to make will saves? I don't get to experience the mental impact of what is happening to my character (which we can all admit is a part of ourselves) and see how it would truly affect him/her. Bull. I want that. I cannot continue without some idea of what happened to know where to go from there.

That being said, I do understand and respect that not everyone can handle or wants to witness such a thing. And no, I am not talking about any sexually explicit RP. Torture has nothing to do with Sex. The two can and do co-exist in some situations but they are not mutually exclusive. IMO, there could be a private locked room that requires consent to enter into that said player is in fact of legal age to consent. Whatever age that may be in where ever they are located. This absolves the staff from any legal issues. That on top of the fact that there is very little recourse that can be had from an online game, minor or not. My daughter plays this game. She is 14. She knows what she can handle and what she is not allowed to be a part of. But I'm not getting into a discussion on parenting.

The two parties (or more) involved in RP that may lead to 'graphic torture' should enter into this 'private location' with the knowledge of what they are consenting to. Any sneaks that follow, also must consent simply by entering. No one will witness what they do not wish to. No one is subjected to something they do not want their character or themselves to be forced to endure. The staff will be aware what this area is for and thus do not have to 'check in' if they cannot handle such either. They can however, notify another DM that can handle such things to make sure that more is not going on that should not be.

Now... I have expressed my feelings and I sincerely hope that I am not ticking anyone off too much. I apologize if I have but I felt the need to be able to express my opinion on the subject. Again, I both understand and accept that not everyone thinks/feels as I do. But please, for the love of all that is Gygax... do not force those of us that do feel this way, to limit our RP in a way that makes this game no longer fun. We do not ask you to stop your tea party.

Fin.

MOD

I really, really enjoy being called a small-minded idiot and then being told not to take it personally. It's seriously my very favorite thing.

You could say that it's almost torture.

Woah-Isay woah dere, let's not derail the thread because of a simple--and possibly poor-- choice of words. There is still a lot of relevant points in that last post.

I don't care what people do, as long as it's IC and not obscene. I don't think you should care either, because you can always opt out, by not being there. I was under the impression we're not a PG13 server anymore anyways, so I don't know why torture was banned? Did I miss something? I mean shit, why does Loviatar exist? If you all can't handle it, just go somewhere else, or do something else. I don't see the point in making everything that someone may potentially find offensive illegal, that seems hardly fair to a legitimate situation where torture RP might fit well in the overall storyline of a character. I know it has in some of my PC's and some that she's interacted with. Next we're going to say that we're not allowed to kill children IG? I mean, lol, it's a fucking video game guys, come on.

No offense but there's saying that I ripped out a persons eye lids and then there's going into every little graphic detail about how I slowly, meticulously and painfully ripped their eye lids out.

My post did not mention anyone in particular and I'm sorry that you took it personal. But in this case, if you felt that it was directed to you .. well...

This is a discussion. I refuse to be part of a discussion where I cannot honestly express my feelings/frustrations. We are (mostly) adults that should be able to accept that not everyone is going to agree. That was, perhaps, a poor choice of words but I did speak honestly on my emotions at the moment of the post. As most of my characters would do because yes, they are a reflection of me and most will know that my toons tend to be chaotic like me

Needled247 wrote:

I don't care what people do, as long as it's IC and not obscene. I don't think you should care either, because you can always opt out, by not being there. I was under the impression we're not a PG13 server anymore anyways, so I don't know why torture was banned? Did I miss something?

Torture was never banned, it's graphic torture that is the issue. This thread has the intent of defining where that line is, from what I gathered. To move in a meaningful way towards that goal, let us start with this: what is graphic? Removal of bodily features? I would hope not, as there are more than a few DM plots that have involved that. Disembowelment? I don't think that is too far off from dismemberment, which has a history on Amia no doubt.

The fact is, I think graphic is just too nebulous a term, and players, given leeway that they have over virtually ever other aspect of the game they participate in, will decide for themselves. In other words, it is not graphic until someone feels offended. For someone like Liz, maybe that line is fingernail removal. For someone like me, who played through the entirety of Resident Evil by age 11 and by the grace of Vishnu did not become some sociopath, I don't think there is a line, for my characters at least, so long as I feel like there is some fruitful RP end to all of the viscera.

For that reason, I think we are already looking at a consent-model. That is what it has always been, because you never hear about cases of torture unless someone involved is offended, or a DM is watching and decides for themselves that someone else might be offended. It is just harder to put that in print, and so we say no graphic torture with the secret hope that people govern themselves to their own feelings.

Sure, you didn't call me out by name, MOD, you just quoted verbatim the argument I've been making this whole thread.

I don't want to tell you not to express your thoughts. I *do* want to tell you not to call people names.

Honestly I think it gets overly graphic once you get someone n the table and really start the torture. I'm not talking about the cutting off parts of people here, I'm talking about the part where you start shoving bits of metal under peoples fingernails and listening to the sounds they make, adjusting how deep the rod is until you get the desired result.

Getting weird enough for you? Well that's the point. That requires interaction as well, and the problem isn't one of consent but where we draw the line on ambiguity. We can't just draw up a defined list here, and I don't want one.

Frankly I'm perfectly okay with torture being used in RP, but that's just me personally. But if we go this line the server has to become 18+. It can't be any other way.

A consent model is not the rule, DI. The rule is no graphic torture. Ever, under any circumstances, consent or not.

Reference.

I'm all in favor of a discussion on whether to change the rule. But don't confuse the issue by claiming the rule is other than what it is.

Neither torture nor porn nor torture porn on this server are graphic enough for my tastes, so I really have nothing to contribute to this discussion.

Except that I am personally in the camp that there's really no good reason to change the way we've done things up until now. Nor do I see the DM Team falling all over themselves to invite the complaints that would come their way by changing it. :wink:

The door is wide open for people to use good sense, have a modicum of class, and humbly apologize for any offense brought about by any of the awesome things that can be done with two gallons of milk, a tuning fork, and an unwilling participant.

Liz, I am sorry. The post really was not aimed at one person in particular. If what I covered was somehow derived from your posts, it was lumped in with everyone else. You are not the only one to feel that way and I understand that. I am sorry for my poor choice in words, my frustration not being an excuse. I will endeavor not to do such again. Though I make no promises for I am an emotional poster

MOD

Thanks, 'preciate it.

We cool.

To reiterate Yoss' point I'm quoting myself.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Liz wrote:

A consent model is not the rule, DI. The rule is no graphic torture. Ever, under any circumstances, consent or not.

Reference.

I'm all in favor of a discussion on whether to change the rule. But don't confuse the issue by claiming the rule is other than what it is.

I don't feel that I am confusing anything. I am saying it is already the case de facto because

Quote:

No graphic Torture. Full Stop. Thats that.

is about as definite as a grain of flour in a snowstorm. My post clarified this very point. What you consider "graphic" and what I consider "graphic" are two separate things. Neither of these qualitative assessments come into issue until something crosses the line for one of us. If someone begins remove your PCs eyelid, a you will likely send up a red flag to that player that you are not okay with it because "that is graphic torture." If I am in such a situation, I would like not send up such a flag, because I did not consider it graphic. In other words, my consent between me and the other player was that eyelid removal "was not graphic." No one is consenting to graphic torture. But we would indeed be consenting between us that what was going on is not, in our own opinions, graphic. That is what happens, regardless of the glib rule we tout. It does not get reported unless someone feels that their definition of graphic has been reached, because the rule is not explained. Even if it were, it would be extremely qualitative to the point it wouldn't matter.

I think you're putting the emphasis on the wrong word in that phrase, "graphic torture." The rule is "no graphic torture" only because if it was just "no torture" then we wouldn't even be able to say, "ok, now there's torturing occurring, and it's the most sadistic sick twisted brutality you can imagine, and fade to black."

I think any description of a specific torture runs up against the rule. Otherwise the rule is completely meaningless, because it wouldn't prevent any description at all except retroactively, after the other party has already called foul. The purpose of the rule is to protect my fragile little bedwetter sensibilities pre-emptively, not reactively.

Though having said that, I definitely agree that it's just my own interpretation and opinion, and the rule could benefit from a little more clarity from the DM team about how we're to receive that word, "graphic."

I really believe that it is a matter of each individual to decide what is okay for them. No rule is going to be able to define that. Keep it as is and I think the DMs won't have a problem unless someone gets out of hand and truly tries to force the issue. There has been a recent case of graphic torture take place, under the supervision of a DM. I will not name names, and no it was not myself. But everyone consented, it was done in detail, for an extended amount of time and nothing bad came of it. It was done well and all parties were satisfied I believe.

It's not something that we will ever reach a consensus on because it -is- different for each person.

MOD

Would you welcome a rule change making it okay for you to be pinned down and violently raped, as long as there was a DM overseeing it?

Liz wrote:

Would you welcome a rule change making it okay for you to be pinned down and violently raped, as long as there was a DM overseeing it?

I think there's quite a bit of a leap there... I don't think anyone is discussing that, besides that's against other server rules. Though I do find the usage of "you" and not "your character" to be mixing association between pixels and your person.

Well, yeah. That was phrased badly, sorry.

But I stand by my point: I really don't see the difference between the two situations. Both torture and rape are offensive and horrifying in the same way, and I can't think of a logical reason to allow the one and condemn the other. Can you? What's the difference between "rape is too terrible a trauma for us to condone, we're not that kind of server," and "graphic torture is too terrible a trauma for us to condone, we're not that kind of server?"

Liz wrote:

Would you welcome a rule change making it okay for you to be pinned down and violently raped, as long as there was a DM overseeing it?

You can make almost anything sound bad by taking it to the extreme like that, also the point was that everyone consented and was ok with it. So if everyone involved consented and was ok with it and it was DM overseen too? Then sure... although that is why "social" servers exist.

No one is saying that every type of torture and extreme violence should be allowed but rather that if everyone involved is ok with it then a greater ability to RP torture should be allowed than it currently is.

Edit: Also its not because either one is a terrible trauma that its banned but rather it because one is sexual content and the other is not. Also I would not put the more "graphic" torture that amia as had and rape anywhere on the same level in terms of effect they would have on a person.

Graphic Torture

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