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So, it's been a number of years since graphic torture was made a no-no on the server, and I thought it might be time to bring up the subject (again? No idea if it's been brought up much) for a little debate.
If I recall correctly, it was outlawed due to a few different things; the possibility of people under the age of 18 feeling forced to witness something pretty horrible; people complaining about just laying around for hours while their torturer cut off little pieces of them; some people not being able to stay reasonable with the torture, possibly getting a tad too graphic.

Whatever the reason was, I'd like to suggest that we return to the days of old where an OOC curtesy "ask" was required, of course at the same time advocating that any and all torturers ought to consider how and why they intend to torture. It's fine that you're evil, but if you're just torturing to be evil then, well... Steamrollers incoming. More importantly, in my oppinion at least, is how you intend to torture. A huge problem, as I recall it, was that some torturers were really, really boring while they tortured, leaving the victim, more or less free to go AFK for an hour or two, while they had their own fun. There were people who did torture exceptionally well (sYuzan for one, the old Sharran Cell, too, as well as a good few drow players), and being a victim of those guys was very, very entertaining.

What's it even good for, you ask? Entertainment! It's not for everyone, I know that, and I absolutely think that people should be able to say 'no' to unwanted torture. However, those who are fine with it, who might even find it an interesting and/or enjoyable aspect of RP, should also be able to delve into it, in my oppinion.

So what do you say? Am I all on my lonesome in wanting this? And sorry if it got a but blabbery.

I am arguably a twisted individual, but I enjoy the 'darker' side of RP, so long as everyone involved is comfortable and of legal age of consent.

I understand why it's not allowed, but I believe that it should be IF proper judgement is used. Like Dako says.

The host and DM's set the rules and they said 'No' several times so this is a bit of a non issue.

People can agree all they want on it here but as long as the rules dont change its simply against said rules.

That's why I'm bringing it up though, to debate if it's worth changing the rule. :wink:

If I got this right you are advocating for having graphic torture on permission only?

Why would a new debate, net different results?
The arguments are all the same.

As a shameless squeamish wimp, I kind of like the rule the way it is. You never know who's watching, ya know? Stealthers, DMs, whatever.

Last edited by Estatica on Sun, Oct 06 2013, 16:09 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Perhaps it should be added to these? A few peoples' waivers actually include protection from graphic/gory torture, if I remember.

Edit: And it was quickly shot down. If people want to waive their individual protections against such, I see no issue with it. Traditions and all, though.

May I please have permission to eat your eyeballs, Liz?

Unfortunately, it was previously ruled that you're not allowed to waiver anything that is stated in the rules. Graphic torture, cybering, etc. Though what describes 'graphic' varies from player to player, I believe it just comes down to common sense. If you feel the other player is being a little over-the-top, just politely ask them to tone it down a notch.

Yossarin wrote:

May I please have permission to eat your eyeballs, Liz?

Yes.

Liz wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

May I please have permission to eat your eyeballs, Liz?

Yes.

There were various reasons for the ruling, but mine was this: if we cannot accept graphic torture in public where anyone could witness it (and I don't care if we do), we cannot accept it at all. All RP that happens on Amia should happen on the Talk and Whisper channels. Nothing in Tells, and nothing that actually requires, for OOC reasons, the participants to hide between locked doors. That kind of RP isn't open to everyone and doesn't promote spontaneous interaction.

My issue was never with graphic torture as such. But as long as we have some restrictions on it, for consistency's sake we should have zero tolerance. It's never ideal to have forms of RP that require OOC consent and communication, let alone OOC precautions to keep random passers-by from witnessing it.

You should never have to ask permission or communicate OOC to be able to RP. It's the same logic we have with the PvP rules; no OOC permission or communication is required. If a given type of RP would require such restrictions to be acceptable, then it's a bad idea. I wouldn't mind if we lifted all restrictions on torture, personally, but I know many don't want to see that.

Thank you for bringing this topic up Dako, I have been thinking about torture a lot lately. It fascinates me both intellectually and philosophically. What I am interested to know is (as my main is a lovi) when do you think torture becomes graphic to you the player. How far is -too- far for the general audience. On case by case, some people have more stomach for such realities and are more curious to have bits of themselves fall off, while others are deeply offended by the notion, I understand that too. Obviously sexuality is thrown out of the window, so let's just regard the opening of the body itself. Torture as I understand it, is the total and often forced exposure of identity. One cannot hide anything from another when they are submit. Imprisonment in such a way is an aspect of torture, and hardly graphic, without graphic rather. We let the walls keep hid the body from the spectacle, or the public scaffold in such a sense. But let's say, we want to sink our teeth into harvesting a truth from one's visible pain, for the sake of argument, how far is too far in your eyes?

There are types of punishments.

Punishment of the body- The striking, marking, and dismemberment of pieces of the body itself.

Punishment of the mind- Intellectual torture, Piercing enchantments, psychological trauma.

Punishment of the sexes- (N/A) Censored, servitude, domination, object fascination, etc.

But nevertheless, we have our whips and we have our sickles too. Say a fight breaks out and the champion emotes stomping someone to death after a PvP battle, this probably goes undermined as a form of graphics, but what you're actually doing is just humiliating the body of the defeated. I would call that torture. I see this a lot though, that humiliation is key to the role of PvP, dark subliminal questions to one's nature arouse then, but let's just accept that this sort of thing happens a lot. It seems that whoever consents to PvP in turn accepts the RP that is expected of battle. Driving a sword through someone's mangled body, and again dismemberment occurs. Players are then involuntarily subjected to torture, but that is really the case of it isn't it? What do you define as graphic torture?

If someone is tied to a hitch and is being spanked or whipped, does this qualify as graphic? Even if the emote itself is lifeless and without detail?

Example A: Player 1: Let me go.
Player 2: *Whips*
Player 1: Agh!
Player 2: *Laughs and whips again*
Player 1: More.

More details:

Example B: Player 1: Please don't do this.
Player 2: *Cuts off player 1's wedding ring finger*
Player 1: *Blood squirts on the manicured lawn*
Player 2: *Tisks the condemned for dirtying the grass*

Then one might ask, to what end? For me, torture is much less about the gore aspect as it is about the helplessness and teasing, the word play. Say the target has no fingers and is told: The key is hanging above you, if you can grab it, you can unlock the door and leave. And then watches as the victim tries miserably to reach and take hold of the door key. That's more torturous than the bloodiness that is expected from the terms 'graphic torture'. I would reinstate the darkness myself on a case by case agreement. I find it intimate and serious and interesting. In my opinion, torture should be something first (a) agreed by all visible parties (b) not conducted without a DM to oversight at any time and (c) never in the public arena, the scaffold. (though this is where torture originates as per the public execution) such open-eyed incidents should never be in the capacity of the player, but handled soley by the DM for there is too much going on: NPCs and PCs alike.)

So my questions for discussion are this:

-What do you define as Graphic Torture?
-How far is too far in your eyes?
-How would you go about regulating it?

Aiseth wrote:

I have been thinking about torture a lot lately. It fascinates me both intellectually and philosophically.

Whoever said that role-players are weird?

Last edited by Aiseth on Sun, Oct 06 2013, 18:09 PM, edited 1 time in total.

IronAngel wrote:

Aiseth wrote:

I have been thinking about torture a lot lately. It fascinates me both intellectually and philosophically.

Whoever said that role-players are weird?

Psychologists. Anyway, think nothing of it, I come at this with a critical lens, those who know me better would not be impressed. I'm curious your thoughts and opinions.

Aiseth wrote:

-What do you define as Graphic Torture?
-How far is too far in your eyes?
-How would you go about regulating it?

-Any torture that's described in any detail beyond the mere word "torture."
-Any far is too far.
-The present rule is awesome.

Seriously, I'm an absolute wimp. Even just reading your post made me twitchy, and I imagine most people would consider your descriptions relatively mild. Anything worse than that, and I'd just log out without warning.

Kudark wrote:

Why would a new debate, net different results?
The arguments are all the same.

becouse all of us have grown into mature adults, and with it the amia itself has grown?

TeroSNS wrote:

becouse all of us have grown into mature adults

...What? That's a joke, right?

I was already a mature adult when I started Amia. Or at least I was an adult, and I like to think I was relatively mature.

I don't think there's any correlation between maturity and squeamishness.

Liz wrote:

I was already a mature adult when I started Amia. Or at least I was an adult, and I like to think I was relatively mature.

I don't think there's any correlation between maturity and squeamishness.

No. I think maturity is knowing there is certainly something wrong about seeing gore and the like. Knowing it is frightful, we'd be screwed if people only shook their hips when the world is busy bleeding. My beliefs mind you are not that I condone torture, but that I think we (the noble 'we') condone torture too much. We like playing master and servant, it is strange and wondrous. And we've accepted that preparing to handle ourselves for anything Rated R, M, or NC17, equates to being an adult. Desensitizing ourselves to things that can harm us. Am I right?

I'm tangent-ing now. I think we've become powerfully disillusioned that we will not die and in our entertainment spend years and years of inputting violence into heads to prepare us for death. Violent bodies, violent interests. The reason why that terrible book series Fifty Shades of Grey was so popular is because it involved the very thing we're talking about, torture. (sorry if you're a FSoG fan, but I got more torture out of reading the lame use of language than the actual material)

Torture breaks away the sociological armor put on our actual weaker bodies, by making the dark things we have prepared ourselves not to be afraid of in film, music, and literature, a reality. That is why it's becoming so popular, it's the next ante up from an action movie, from a pornography. It's blending our weaknesses, the things that scare us. We're trying to adapt to our environment in terrible ways. Maybe not, maybe it is a strengthening. I don't know that puzzle. But I do think it is entirely healthy to be afraid of violence, to hate it. You're right Liz. That isn't to say that people who indulge in, let's be frank, BDSM are unhealthy either. I won't go there though. I don't think the community is responsible enough to discuss such things.

Fine by me as long as every party consents. Although it should probably only occur in party chat or something, since a lot of people are 'squeamish'.

On the other hand, amia could do with less sexual innuendos and references.. imo c_c

Allowing any RP of any kind to occur in /party chat at any time is a bad idea, and a line we don't want to cross.

Frankly, I have never cared about graphic torture. Then again, I'm a systematically desensitized bastard. In general, I don't like OoC rules on RP that might needlessly abridge or circumvent certain places in stories. I you have to pull somebody's guts out and run it through a taffy machine in meticulous detail, fine, but make sure you have a reason for it. Any element of a story that does not somewhat build to the story or character development is wasted and needless. That goes for dialogue and actions, including stigmatized things like gore, sex, and profanity.

If two people feel that reenacting a scene from Chuck Palahniuk's Guts is what it takes for them to genuinely reach the magnus opus of their PCs RP, fine. That is my personal stance on it. But I of course realize I play on a server with multiple people who simply could not handle coming across something like that IC without suffering a dissociative conniption OcCly. So a compromise must be made to retain and appease the larger audience. That I am again fine with. But it is simply naive to thing that graphic torture cannot serve a purpose. And it is equally naive I feel to believe that done between a small number of PCs is somehow a purposeful exclusion of RP with other parties. If two people sipping Earl Grey and talking about the weather on a secluded park bench is meaningful RP, then what stands to say that the events of Misery between the writer and his biggest fan are not?

Rules against torture and anything unsettling are fine. They serve their purpose. But let us not act like there is some inherent high-ground in between the RP that we allow and the potential stories that we do not.

Liz wrote:

Allowing any RP of any kind to occur in /party chat at any time is a bad idea, and a line we don't want to cross.

Heh, you're right

Dark Immolation wrote:

If two people feel that reenacting a scene from Chuck Palahniuk's Guts

Nice reference. I know precisely what you refer to, and I remember reading that section on an airplane. Though I did not pass out, I did grow very pale and was asked by a stewardess if I was alright. I got a five dollar rum and coke and soldiered on.

Some of the 18+ servers had "private rooms" for graphic depictions of such things, in that both parties had to consent and they would go into a locked private room to do the RP, which shut out anyone else from watching it (except DMs)

I'm not opposed to graphic torture, so long as it's not pointless. I've sat in jails for much longer times than I'd ever get tortured, and the RP was far less interesting in the jails, so I think the "forcing people to go AFK while RP" argument against it is invalid.

Would be interesting to see how the server would be if it went a "Game of Thrones" style violence.

Perhaps for the sake of the squeamish in the audience us torturers are just going to have to limit themselves to psychological torture. Insert reference about agonizingly bad literature/media (there's even an in-game item which basically does the job...) being read to the victim.

I have odd views about torture that would be impossible to explain but I'm generally pretty passive and lazy so no one has to worry about me being a sadist or an especially horrible human being. In case you were curious or something, I dunno.

I am not opposed to Torture being allowed...

I think there is a difference between graphic torture, and sadistic unchecked get carried away GRAPHIC torture. Seeing someone get a finger cut off or their tongue cut out is a far cry from seeing someone have the genitals removed, then having the bleeding staunched with a hot iron or something.
Whether a legal adult or not... we have all seen television programs or movies with some sort of violence and torture. Game of thrones, True blood, Vikings.. Lord of the Rings, Braveheart, count of Monte Cristo... all these shows and movies depict torture, and we rave about these shows... both adult and young adult... so I really do not see a difference in that or the game.

This is supposed to be a fantasy RP game. In the novels we probably all read, there was torture. In todays society, we are not a bunch of children that need to be protected. It is like back in the dark ages.. where children the age of 10 were brought out to witness public torture and executions...

My character is an evil little turd. He was trained in the art of "interrogation" and by that I mean he is skilled in torturing people to get information. This whole thing about kids not needing to see things like that is invalid because as I said earlier.. video game and tv/movie stuff has desensitized them. Kids today think of shit I did not when I was their age 20 years ago.

I personaly think all it does is limit a players RP designs...because we cant infringe on someone elses fragile sensibilities. I say if you cant handle some things, then do not get involved in things that may lead you to have a nightmare and piss your bed.

I really don't have a problem with the torture stuff at all, although it also seem to me that whenever people on amia discuss it it oddly goes to either goes to people talking about sexualized torture stuff or "saw" like gore-fest stuff.

I was around for a lot of the torture RP before it was banned, especially as an active drow player and it I would say that 95 percent or more was really not that bad, somewhere generally between what you might see in a pg13 to R rated movie. It was generally there to give the feeling that you were in a dark an violent situation and it did so quite well I must say, even if there was still a lot of "I laugh at your whipping me!" type reactions that would occur.

As for the "squeamish" people... You are playing a game in which there are horrible violent monsters trying to kill you and you them, hell people go around with blood on them with odd frequency. If you really don't want to be around any violence or dark subject matter at all you're probably not playing the right game. Which isn't to say you have to be a part of any of that... But its kind of like going to see an action movie and then saying you don't like there being explosions. Its part of the territory.

"If you can't handle it, screw you, log out" is not a stance we want to be encouraging. We want to give people reasons to stay, not to leave. And it's not a matter of coddling minors. I'm closer to 40 than 30, Sithaeleon, and it's me you're referring to when you talk about "fragile bedwetters," thank you very much. Maybe try to be a little bit civil, please?

It is an arbitrary line. There's no real reason to draw it one way or the other. But the thing is, we do have to be comfortable with the line we draw. We can and should expect everyone to deal with the legitimate RP that happens on Amia. Our PvP rules say there needs to be a reasonable chance to avoid mechanical combat, but we can demand every player to roll with the punches as long as those rules are followed. We have rules concerning faction leadership, and people don't get to decide whether they like them or not. If we draw the line past graphic torture and say it's cool, we are saying we expect everyone to be able to deal with it, as long as it's legitimate. That if I catch your PC and decide to initiate torture within the rules, you either roll with it or get out of Amia. That I am justified in initiating legitimate RP on anyone, because you don't get choose OOC what IC interactions you want to have (because that would be absurd and unhealthy).

Is it a line we want to draw, one we can draw in good conscience? Graphic torture could be cool. But is it worth it to tell Liz (for example) that for the greater good of server culture, she now has to accept graphic torture as a legitimate everyday possibility? That's what it comes down to: whether it's worth it to alienate a part of the playerbase for the supposed benefits of free-for-all torture. Maybe, maybe not. I don't think so. But we ought to recognize that's what the choice is about.

To be fair there are probably people who are miffed about our stance on torture being as it is, possibly to the point where they refuse to join Amia on account of it. But like, I would have misgivings about changing it to suit some players (who have carried on fine for a while) if it will be problematic for other players.

Also I like action movies and all but if I see stuff like, broken bones poking through skin or needles on the insides of joints (the elbow is a big one, guh) I get really twitchy and may turn away a little. It's just a... thing, for some people.

Edit: I got ninja'd a lot by Iron once again being more eloquent in his non-native language than I am in my native language. God dammit.

I don't mind the lack of descrpitive graphic torture myself really. The RP can summarily indicate that severe torture is happening without getting graphic about it to any extent. Admittedly, having a bit more of an idea of what that Severe torture entails might be helpful in working out if your character is more likely to buckle under the effects or no.

I do have a further point on this but I need to figure out how to word it to be proper.

We as a server still allow torture, we never banned all torture RP. We banned "Graphic" torture but the line between graphic and non graphic torture needs to be better defined because as is it seems like a lot of people just straight up avoid doing it even if it would make sense out of fear of crossing some unclear line.

And since it is a very subjective thing between what one person and another might find graphic we kind of need better objective definitions as to how much is or isn't allowed.

And if you really don't like even the current level that is allowed then you can always just tell others to have the seen "fade to black" really I can't think of anyone who isn't a complete ass who would deny you that.

I was not trying to single out anyone in what I said, I was speaking in general terms, and I was not saying"if you dont like it log out". If someone took offence to it, then all I can say is; it is what it is. I stand by what I said. However, in an attempt at a psuedo apology I will say, my intent was not to offend anyone. As for being civil... I was alot more civil than I could have been, and alot more civil than some others I have seen on these forums directly calling out people with needless taunts and outright hurtful insults.

Iron Angel said that I am basically proclaiming that others have to accept graphic torture and the fairness of it, if I understood correctly. If I misinterpreted it, my fault and I will offer my apology for my mistake now. However, I am not saying anyone has to accept what evil does... but in the grand scheme of things.. if you are going to adventure, and be around "evil" characters, you have to be prepared to deal with the eventuality that their "evilness" is going to show through... some more than others. On the other side, I would argue that it is not really fair for those of us with evil characters, and certain mindsets of how those characters should be played, to have to limit said characters actions because their are people that do not like it. I have heard this argues in game before, so I am not the only one.

No one has to accept it... but as long as there is evil roaming around, they are going to see it is my point. Even the slightest evil deed can be complained about, then it becomes no fun. Good cannot survive without evil.... if there was no evil.. Amia would be one boring server, and if you cant handle evil and what it represents, then dont leave that polished ivory tower is what I am saying. I am not trying to suggest limiting anyones RP... but I am also trying to say that I do not want, and will not limit mine because others dont want to limit theirs.

And yes.. I still cringe, and silently scream in my head "Holy hells, that was nasty" when I see something like that on TV or movies.. or give a disgusted "gah" or "ugh",But... I accept it, because I made the choice to go to see that movie, or pick up the remote and put on that channel and watch.

IronAngel wrote:

Our PvP rules say there needs to be a reasonable chance to avoid mechanical combat, but we can demand every player to roll with the punches as long as those rules are followed.

I don't think it has to be like this though. When Liz says she doesn't want any sort of torture RP, I wouldn't have an issue with simply not exposing her to it. If I captured her character, for whatever reason and told her in a tell something like: "My dude would want to torture your PC?" To which she might reply: "No thanks, you silly git, I dislike that sort of RP," I'd just do the regular routine. Sure, I might feel that my character didn't get to do what he'd really do, but that's the way it is already. A change to the rules, if only making it so that torture RP is allowed only with the consent of all present players, would do nothing more or less than open up a venue of RP that isn't available right now, at least that's how I see it.

As for Aiseth's questions...

-What do you define as Graphic Torture?

In this case, I define graphic torture as more or less detailed, mostly physical abuse. Cuts, whippings, mild dismemberment, beating of helpless individual. You know, fairly standard "mature-to-R rated" stuff. Nothing sexual, not only because it is illegal on the server but because torture starts going from graphic to disgusting at that point, in my oppinion. Even though it might be pertinent to some characters' MO, it's so horrible a thing to even describe that it seems unnecessary in a game like this.

-How far is too far in your eyes?

As I said above, sexually themed torture and abuse is crossing the line. With like, a big, disturbing step. To add to that, anything that crosses the line of your victim PC's player, is too far as well.

-How would you go about regulating it?

Honestly, just like PvP is regulated. As is right now, nothing is stopping me from logging in (aside from the current server issues :wink:

), randomly setting someone hostile, and just outright kill him. I'd get punished later, sure, and that'd work for regulation on this matter as well, I feel. Say I did happen to cross a line at some point, the player being wronged will always have the option to simply log out and report the incident to a DM, after which I would(/should) be disciplined in a fitting manner. Screenshots of the chat log is all the proof you need if someone wronged you.

Needled mentioned just sitting around in a jail cell when captured, and that seems a shitload more terrible to me (personally) than being tortured, but that's just me. Gaging the level of torture a prisoner's player can/will endure/tolerate, would open up a new way, in some cases a more fitting way to interact with a captured player.

I've personally met at least a couple of under eighteen fellows that have come here. I'd rather not see this rule lifted. If you want your torture do it on Skype, at least that's what I'd go with. Torture RP seems unnecessary for anyone to go through, and should be kept off of the game. Granted, rites and PM rituals are ambiguous, but you aren't really torturing people.

I say if you aren't sure ask a DM.

I think it may be important to note that nobody is telling you that your character can't brutally torture anybody. If that's what your guy would do, you're free to do it; your character development is not hindered in the slightest. What's restricted is describing it in specificity. It's totally ok for you to declare that your character sets about torturing a prisoner in the most gory, sadistic manner imaginable. And if you say IC that it happens, it happens IC. There's nothing your prisoner can do about it; they're completely at your mercy (or lack of it). The rule doesn't prevent you from doing terrible things. It prevents you from *describing* them.

Well said Liz!

Much as I respect people's desire to not be exposed to it I take issue with it being called "unnecessary for anyone". A lot of people are into Roleplaying for the simulative aspects. Details can be incredibly important to determining reaction and state. Something that could be done without, sure, but something that is preferred by some for valid reasons. Me I don't need details to do torture RP stuff, though I could certainly use them - but I do feel at a bit of a loss when I lack them when it is done to my character.

I was sort of trying to think up a compromise to this issue, and I think it might be best if the concerned players - if they really want to go deets - just figure out in tells however much they want to determine (for me I would just determine pertinent technical details - technique, tools, frequency, whatever - because that's how I get the information I prefer). Spies don't get to opt in or out unless they want to approach someone about it later, but they're not really losing anything anyway given the current situation. I don't know if it's legal to do this already (since whatever is exchanged in tells could be perfectly innocent musings) but either way saying it's okay to do it this way shouldn't cause problems for people who are against a change, while offering recourse to those who are for it.

We shouldn't /have/ to go OOC like that but it's OOC to fix an OOC problem - the sensitive nature of torture and its effects on other players. It's the same as waiting for someone to come back after they crash, really.

Is it only me who thinks that doing such things, like describing torturing process in details (either ingame or not), is a sign of not-so-healthy mind?

But why is that you feel a need to limit the RP of others when it would never be forced on you? As I said, if I captured anyone not cool with torture RP I'd accept that and not do anything aside from "*much torture ensues and it would be a long night for X*." For me, all you saying no to torture RP does, is take away an avenue of RP that both parties could've enjoyed (if they're good with that sort of RP) instead of one part simply being locked up in a cell, only to be granted RP whenever their capturer feels like it.

Really, think about it, if it is never forced on you and in fact the rules are on your side if someone does try to do so, why would you want rules in place to limit them from doing what they find interesting/entertaining/whatevs? I don't know about you (not just you, Liz, though admittedly I am using you for the examples as you seem the most outspoken of those against this), but I believe that the common curtesy most people show in regards to the PvP rules (as much as they suck and are completely OOC) could, and in fact should apply to this matter as well.

Because you never know who's watching.

Well, as a GM myself, I can sympathise with the DMs' stance on this. As someone who often recruits people for campaigns off the internet, suffice to say your players may all be more wlling to consent to things than you yourself mght be. And when you're running the show its hard for you to not be involved in it.

I figure that if this stuff is allowed again, it'll make those DMs that might be squeamish about it hesitant about dropping in on private conversations around the server, for fear they might stumble into something darker. Makes me think of the stories I used to hear back when Ultrinann was still a city, of how most of the DM team didn't want to go near the city because of all the messed up stuff going on there behind closed doors.

So yeah, I'm a firm advocate of the fade to black method when it comes to stuff like torture or sex. If it matters so much to you, describe it between yourselves in a different medium, and then keep it between yourselves.

Anyone wrote:

Is it only me who thinks that doing such things, like describing torturing process in details (either ingame or not), is a sign of not-so-healthy mind?

Probably not, but I'd also say that having an attitude like that is entirely uninformed and filled with prejudice. We're all different though, so I won't hold it against you. :wink:

Liz wrote:

Because you never know who's watching.

Honestly, I'd say that that's just too bad, if we're talking about sneaks. You can't expect people to moderate their RP based on the possibility that shadow dancers are lurking. As for the DMs, I'm sure each and every one of them would simply not stay and watch, if they witnessed RP that made them uncomfortable.

We're obviously all crazy, thank god I don't have to meet any of you in real life.

In unrelated news, thinking of the term "manicured lawn" is pure torture to me.

Liz wrote:

Because you never know who's watching.

Yeah this is what complicates the issue, unfortunately. There's no reliable way to ensure that it's not being forced on someone unless you specifically handle it in a "information requested/offered > and returned" on the down-low).

Anyone wrote:

Is it only me who thinks that doing such things, like describing torturing process in details (either ingame or not), is a sign of not-so-healthy mind?

A fair question Anyone. But one could argue equally that someone who would simply rather not confront these matters, evasively, has a not-so-healthy introspection. That's not a blow to you, I just would point that your observation can go either way. One finger forward three fingers backward. When is it ever okay to look at our blood and bones and sex? Ancient problem really. You're just looking at things from the "violence is terrible" route which is a good route to go from. I would suggest that those curious about torture and its aspects are in the zone of "but why is violence terrible?" I am confident that everyone in this community is a good and responsible human being, no one here is unhealthy minded, they've earned my trust to allow me to discuss something like this. Are there sick people in the world? Yes. But we're not dealing with anyone who is outright mad, I do not think. You just have to consider that the subject is broader than you may expect, and know that your community is a curious and rational bunch who likes to talk about all notions of humanity.

Graphic Torture

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