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"Where there's life there's hope.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit

Gulliver Goldwoods (Acorn) - Keeper of the Lands of Bendir Dale
Brandy Bramblefoot (Harlequin) - General practitioner & summoner of Mischief!

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Serena Voi: An adorable little Halfling.
Brizthara D'ulov: A spoiled, loud-mouthed priestess.

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Rosary Doodlekins - Hin Candy Witch

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Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero
Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner
Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass
Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

I had a very enlightening conversation in-character this evening in Bendir. A pair of people who will remain anonymous came into Bendir while Kira and Laurel were sitting on the benches by the town hall, and mentioned that Kard, a banned individual, had been around. The comment, "Everyone else breaks the law around here, I don't see why one man with no ill-will would make a difference" was made. Later in the conversation, it was pointed out to Kira (Laurel had left by then) that others viewed the town as ignorant because violence was rampant on the roads, banned individuals walked through whenever they pleased, the militia was uncontrollable, and several other accusations.

Well you know what, guys?

They were right, in a way. We aren't ignorant of the problem, though. Every single person who's actually bothered to fucking log into their Bendir Dale resident on at least a bi-monthly basis (of which there are few) can tell you this. And if they can't, maybe we really are ignorant.

Here's the deal. I've been a Bendir Dale player since I joined Amia in 2008. Two characters in my list are human, the rest are halflings or gnomes. I spend almost all of my time on Amia in and around Bendir Dale. And as a player who spends all of his RP time in this area, I have seen the same shit day after day. I have seen players ignore bans and come and go as they please. I have seen laws ignored. I have seen PC guards ignored. I have seen OBSCENE AMOUNTS of metagaming by doing illegal, stupid and dangerous things in front of the Bendir Dale guards. And by that, I mean the NPC ones. You know, the ones that nobody acknowledges the existence of because all they're there for is opening and closing the gates.

Tonight's IC conversation brought something to my attention that I've been aware of for ages, but am only just now coming to accept. Bendir Dale is the Dodge City of Amia. Our laws mean nothing. Our guards mean nothing. Our characters mean nothing. Our city means nothing. We can elect who we want, ban who we want, fight who we want, kill who we want, and write whatever laws we want, and none of it matters a single bit to anyone outside of the portion of the playerbase who calls Bendir home. Time and time again I've seen shenanigans and illegal garbage in Cordor responded to almost immediately with NPC guard attention. The NPC guards of Cordor will put your ass down if you start garbage there. They have a presence. Most of what goes on in Cordor is DM-plot related. It's established that the law there means something. In Bendir, the law means nothing. The recurring theme among players that I have personally witnessed time and time again for months is that if your PC guard is not strong enough to fight and kill my character, I don't have to listen to you and will do as I please. If we fight, I will kill you and resume what I'm doing. If you kill me, I will go away, buff myself up, and return to kill you.

If I am banned, and your PC guard is not able to kill me, I will do as I please, because you can't do anything about it. You have no power here. I will do as I please, go where I please, and piss on your law board in front of your cardboard cutout NPC guards, because fuck you, that's why.

If I am doing something illegal, if I am with a banned individual, if I am going to be banned, if I am an obvious evil person, if I flaunt the colors and fly the battle standard of Bane while proclaiming his word on high, I may walk into Bendir Dale as I please because the NPC guards do not stop me. The PC guards cannot stop me. The laws do not stop me. And most importantly of all...

There is no DM here to stop me.

This is what I have witnessed. You know what the primary differences are between Bendir Dale and Cordor? Cordor is the favored hub of several DMs. Bendir Dale is the favored hub of none. When DMs log in, they go to Cordor because they have events in Cordor, or familiar players in Cordor, or they just like Cordor. Cordor is their baby. Bendir Dale is nobody's baby. Bendir Dale is the Quasimodo orphan of babies. It's just stuck out there in the middle of nowhere, and people just stop by to kick it in the face because really, what are they going to do about it?

But you know what? As easy as that makes it to simply point fingers at the DMs and blame it all on them, it isn't their fault either.

For weeks we were terrorized by a player who showed up to bait fights and murder people in scores with hacker levels of efficiency. For months we've been infested with players who ignore laws and bans. All in front of the NPC guards, who stood there like wax figures with their thumbs up their asses and said nothing, because no puppetmaster is there to make them say or do anything. I've spoken with DMs before on the topic. I've raised my concerns. I've received basically the same answer. "If someone is griefing/trolling/metagaming, tell us and we'll handle it." Every time I see this happening, every time I see the metagaming, the ignoring of IC laws, the trolling, the griefing, the downright idiocy, I check the forums and there's the reason: "Amia Island - X/55 (0 DM)." It's hard to tell a DM when they only pull this garbage when none are online. And taking screencaps, taking chatlogs, and sending messages seem to be as pointless as tattling to the teacher the day after the bully punches you in the face and takes your lunch money.

"Teacher! Teacher, that kid hit me and took my things! I mean, he isn't here today, and might not be for several days, and he doesn't have a forum account, and it may be a very long time before you're both online at the same time, and even with these screenshots you might forget his login or character name or that we even had this discussion by the time you're able to see or contact him, but do something about it!"

It's easy to see how ineffective this is.

So going back to the IC interaction earlier this evening, Kira was being presented with an overwhelming amount of information and accusations that the entire (regularly present) population of Bendir Dale is fully and migraine-inducingly aware of, and labeled as ignorant of all of it. And suddenly, both in my head and in-character, I found myself shouting "Well what the hell do you expect us to do about it?!"

That's my question. What the hell do we do about it?

We can't fight them.
We can't ban them.
We can't kill them.
We can't make them leave.
We can't tattle on them.

Is that just it? Is that really just it? We're just forced to lie back and take this over and over again every day because Bendir doesn't have a DM babysitter?

This has been a long time coming. I've spoken about it with DMs and friends alike on many occasions, but I've never made a real statement about it until now. There may be consequences for this, there will probably be a lot of arguing and flaming, and I've probably made a few people mad. But you know what? I don't care. Because that's the truth, and this is how things are.

Bendir Dale needs something. Obviously these problems cannot be solved through IC interactions. Electing a new mayor will not help. Sticking more NPC guards in the map will not help. A DM occasionally peeking at Bendir over their Cordor-tinted glasses will not help. Moving the carts will not help. Something needs to happen, though. Because one thing those two I spoke to IC earlier this evening said was definitely and entirely true: Bendir Dale has lost all control.

I will ask one thing of you if you plan to respond to this and are a Bendir Dale player. Before you post, please ask yourself, "How many times have I been on my Bendir Dale character, in/around Bendir Dale, for more than 20 minutes at a single time this week?"

One last thing before I end this tirade. If you're reading this and you're a player of a character who's banned from Bendir, or torments Bendir, or breaks Bendir laws, or trolls us in any other way, or in any way falls into the categories of people I listed above, please. I'm pleading with you. Begging you. Please just stop. I understand that you're good at PvP, or your character is an evil hardass who doesn't play by the rules, or that nobody's online to stop you. I understand that. But please think for a second. This is our RP place. This is where we like to go on the server to do what the server was intended for- roleplay our characters. And when people like me have to dread logging in because I know it's going to be interrupted because we have to go outside and have a big stupid shouting match or PvP war or chase off a banned person, it just isn't fun anymore. I'm not asking for sunshine and rainbows all the time because if I wanted that I'd go play on a social server. But what I am asking is that you respect the server rules. Wanna violate a ban or wage a war or kill someone in front of the guards? Get a DM's attention first so that they can react appropriately. Don't just take advantage of the situation. Please.

That's all. Ruff out.

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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster

As a former faction leader that had to deal with the worst the server has to throw in terms of trollish evils, I've a few pointers. Screencap everything. Every single @#$%ing conversation ever. Nothing will probably be done with the files right away, but they are damn handy when you're dealing with a staffer that's ignorant of the situation and you have to get them up to speed when the offenses pile up.

Also: Ignore them. That was one of the biggest reasons I loved being a shadowdancer. Annoying "stupid evil" in your grill? Just disappear. Trolls get bored without interaction. Go RP elsewhere for a while. Winya Ravana is likely similar to Bendir Dale in RP atmosphere. Just go RP in the Iron Butterfly for a while until they bugger off. They can't metagame your guards and burn the village down while you're away with any lasting effect, I promise. You're only feeding the PvP skanks by getting this upset. Seriously, just take the conversation elsewhere. I've blown off uncountable retarded wanna-be villains and badasses, and Tarkuul floats on. Sure, it might not be strictly IC for your halfling/gnome/pixie/snuggle rabbit to ignore it, but most of the RP your complaining about doesn't make any sense in the first place. Just go behind closed doors until they get bored.

As a former faction leader of this actual settlement, take your conversation elsewhere.

We're really not in the same position as you. Everything you've written highlights the extent of your cluelessness.

Oh, I'm quite aware of the Bendir Dale atmosphere, forgettable though my character there may have been. No need for your usual attitude when I'm trying to throw a bone.

Apologies if I'm not really in a position to comment on any of this, but I'd like to add my two cents, as an outsider who's roleplayed in Bendir Dale frequently, and witnessed some of the things you described personally in the past.

I don't RP regularly at Bendir Dale, but I can completely sympathize with you. I don't know if it's much of a solution, nor do I know if it's implemented, but I wonder if having a regular DM oversee Bendir Dale would help fix some of the problems you brought up. Consider that the major cities - Wiltun, Kohlingen, Cordor, Winya Ravana, Tarkuul, even factions like the Shrine of Eilistraee - tend to have a DM in control of the city's activities. More than just helping to keep order by controlling the NPCs, they also help oversee events and plots related to the area.

Which brings me to my problem: Bendir Dale doesn't have one. At least, not to my knowledge, or it's cycled between various different DMs who, while doing a fine job when they are available, aren't necessarily available enough. I'm not saying that having a dedicated DM will automatically fix things and make everything sunshine and roses, but I think having someone to go to who can watch the area, take control of NPCs to help with in-character interaction and even devise plots and storylines for the residents there to take place in, will go a long way to help encourage more, rule-abiding roleplay in the area.

Bendir Dale strikes me as being very player-controlled, in contrast to most of the other settlements. It's great to see the work you've done, and it is disappointing that some players, knowingly or not, marginalize your efforts. It's even worse that this is causing so much stress and so many problems on an OOC basis. But PC guardsmen can't be expected to log on every day of the week, at any moment, to watch the roads for something that may or may not happen. Neither can a DM; we're all people, here, and we're all here to have fun, but someone watching from the skies would surely help a great deal.

Just my thoughts, and I apologize if I cause offense by voicing them.

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I play...
Mihaela-Luminița Sămășescu, Paladin of Torm

The biggest problem as I see it is simply that Bendir is a small town not a city with the resources that Cordor or Kohlingen or even Wiltun have and yet they are on the middle of a lot of intersecting paths from other important locations and even have a cart that stops RIGHT in front of the Dale.

Further adding to this problem is the fact that Bendir seems intent to try to enforce their laws and bans outside of the actual town walls, which is a large issue IC and OOC because it intersects a lot of places so the "banning" of people from "Bendir territory" Just isn't going to work unless the dale gets the power to enforce it properly which they won't because (And I hate to sound repetitive) they are a small town and just don't and really shouldn't have the power that would be required.

The problem here is in my opinion players believing Bendir to be more than it is or ever was. And now I have never had any characters banned from there and conversely never had any as an active part of the Dale, so this is all just my perspective on things from watching for a long time from the sidelines but far too many times have I witnessed Bendir try to be heavy handed with its laws and bans and the enforcement of them. I've seen banned or disliked characters passing through on the carts or quickly on the paths clearly just passing by get pounced on about being there instead of just letting pass by when they really didn't care about the Dale. And then the dale acts shocked that those characters then lash back out at the dale in return.

Basically Bendir is a chihuahua that tries to act like a rottweiler which is likely to get them bitten whenever a bigger dog comes around and takes offence, and there are plenty of bigger dogs.

As for people that constantly break the server rules: report them, plain and simple. Don't let people continue to do stuff that isn't acceptable just because it is a bit of work or you feel like it might not do anything because its not just you they effect by constantly breaking rules but everyone.

And here you are, proving Ruff 100%.

EDIT: my quote button is not working >.>;;;

Many communities are under-represented in terms of DM oversight presently. It's hardly an isolated problem, and one that needs to be resolved quickly.

//As moderator of this forum and a player in Bendir I'm asking everyone to keep this positive. Ruff has some valid points and they are worthy of discussion. The only way this discussion will continue to take place is if it remains productive, on topic, and civil. This has been building up for a while. Let's consider what's needed moving forward to resolve the issues we all recognize are present and the source of the frustration we all have experienced.

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

While you have some valid points there, the point I was trying to make is less about what Bendir is capable of in terms of IC resources, size and manpower, and more about how people choose to act when inside its jurisdiction. Bendir Dale may be small, but it is still a settlement where characters live and interact every day. We have walls, we have a government system, and we have a militia. But even if it's just a militia and it's made up of a bunch of scrappy halflings, it's still a force of law in an established settlement, and more importantly it's still subject to server rules. Bendir Dale may not be as big as Cordor or Kohlingen, but that doesn't make our bans any less real or our laws any more lenient in terms of server rules.

If baddies want to sneak around and abuse the fact that Bendir is tiny, that's fine so long as they get a DM's approval and do it the right way, according to server rules. But the issue I'm bringing up here is that they don't. They simply ignore it all, metagame the NPC guards and do as they please regardless of how we feel. And they're able to get away with it because we don't have any DM babysitters.

We may seem like a chihuahua up against rottweilers, and we may seem heavy-handed with our laws and bans, but what else can we do? If nobody is listening or following the rules, we're conflicted by the knowledge that they're breaking server rules, but the inability to do anything but react to it in-character. If no DMs are on, we can't get help, reports aren't fast enough, and so all we can do is yell and fight, and as ineffective as that always is, it's all we have. It's literally all we have.

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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster

Yes and inviting completely random players, one of them who doesn't even play on the server anymore, to comment on our problems is the very opposite of what any sane person considers to be productive.

Only person that commented above that actually understood what Ruff said is VKB. And even then, I wager it has a lot more to the fact VKB has been RPing with us for a long time, even before Triel.

This isn't a conversation that we should have in public with the peanut gallery, considering the peanut gallery is the major part of the problem. But if you are going to force us to have a conversation about it, I'll address VKB and Ninja's comments, since Ruff addressed Penguin's.

DM assistance would help everyone, I'm sure. But DMs are more available now than they ever were in my time playing on Amia. I couldn't even find a DM to help me with the most basic things (like fixing deity field), but now there's even DM offering to do mini-events for players, which I've never seen before I came back. So I don't think lack of DM availability is the issue.

It is true that we don't have a Dale DM. But honestly? I don't think that'll make a huge difference. Just like Ruff doesn't. I had three DMs that was supposedly in charge of Dale related activities during my term and I hardly ever got help from any of them over any of these problems. DM help we had was really to impact the module. Getting Bootsie? A lot of DM help. Getting the north gate? A lot of DM help. Ironwooding the gate so we can't really open the gates without those gate guards because it'd be beyond the capacity of an ordinary halfling? A lot of DM help. Setting up the insignia for the gate? A lot of DM help. Updating law signs, adding a new merchant stall, and moving Bemmi? Lots of DM help.

When we have trolls? Nearly 0 DM help.

It's not for the lack of screenshots. It's not for the lack of reporting. It's not for the shortage of DMs. We kept doing it and we realized that not only were the trolls ruining our experience when we actually logged on, they creeped into our lives even when we weren't, requiring us to spend hours and hours compiling screenshots, writing reports, and uploading them only to be told nothing will be done about it. Or worse. Being promised something will be done and then the same players coming back week after week after this supposed promise. We've even gotten yelled at for reporting metagamers because it wasn't "serious" enough.

It's not for lack of ignoring either. If it's not outisde, it's inside. Even when I do seclude myself, I've even been harassed OOCly in tells by numerous players about how I don't want to RP. The level of harassment we experience is not miniscule. I know because unlike Ruff, I've RPed in other locations. Even when people thought there was a lot of PvP in the Triumvir, I didn't even understand what people were talking about. I used to sit in the Shrine for hours and hours, just like I do with the Dale. Only time I can think of of blatant metagaming was someone who was clearly banned that killed someone inside the Shrine. Even then, that's one account of the entire time I've played Rhyl; a character I've had much longer and played pretty much exclusively until I made Laurel (Though to be fair, nothing came of that incident in the Shrine either even though we did report with screenshots).

I told Ruff this is the worst possible idea to post it here and people really like proving me right. If you think we haven't tried XYZ, well then you're just clueless. We've tried everything. Now, we can add begging to the list.

Please. Please we beg you. We're more than "snuggle rabbits". We actually do RP here. Just like none of us goes to your heroic/villain moments and decide to shit all over it on a daily basis, we just want the same. It's one place in the entire two servers that we RP in. Like Ruff said, it's really all we have.

We tried that for a long time. It killed Bendir's playerbase. For the longest time, CTX and I were the only ones active in Bendir. We've tried various methods of ignoring it like going to RP in other areas, turning a blind eye to the trolls, and even banning residents and visitors alike from loitering in the roads outside. They worked, to a degree, but ultimately they murdered Bendir Dale's RP because nobody was around to RP with. They got involved in other circles, or never hung around to talk, instead just running to Jayek to sell things and running off again, or just flat out quitting the game or the area entirely. It seems like every time Bendir's population starts to flourish again, something comes along to kill it again. Recently it's been in the form of murderous PvP mongers, metagaming lawbreakers and ignorance of bans.

Even if we do ignore them by taking the RP inside the walls, the visitors who were out there before the trouble started will sooner start a fight than come inside most of the time. It works in theory, but not in practice.

And that's a huge part of why I started this thread. I want to confront this issue and put an end to it instead of running away from my favorite faction area and abandoning it to the trolls again. This cycle has been repeating itself for ages, and I want it to stop now. There is literally no reason we should have to let the trolls win by killing Bendir Dale every time they show up to play.

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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster

No, this is exactly what I wanted. I want everyone's suggestions so that we can clearly make known what we've tried. Because every one of the suggestions I've read so far is something we've done, but that other players who don't visit Bendir all the time know that we've already tried. So they'll keep suggesting them until it's solidly stated somewhere like this thread that it's been tested and doesn't work. It's progress.

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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster

Wrote out a huge post, but I kept thinking that ultimately it came back to one thing. In the Dale, we need some more DM support. I agree completely with Ruff that Bendir is being walked on. When that happens IC, without any OOC rules being broken, then it's totally cool, since we'll respond IC. When it continues to happen OOC, where rules are broken or metagaming occurs, then the only lasting solution is for the DM's to become involved.

I play in Bendir Dale a lot, and I've played characters who are respectful of their laws IC and those who are disrespectful or ignorant of them, too. Overall, my most pleasant RP experiences have happened in the Dale. It's a good community of players, whether they play the residents or the people who visit. The conflict which comes to the Dale is also a huge drawing point for me, but I really need to stress that this is only provided that it happens IC without rules being broken. When that happens, it falls into the realm of the DM's to take action. I'm not saying that we as players can't give corrective nudges, but in the cases where larger problems come up (which is what Ruff has been talking about), we really need more DM support.

Which of you DM's likes us little people the best?

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Just lurking about!

We don't necessarily need DM support and being reliant on DMs won't help us. Because then people like Tormak will just call us cry babies like he has in the past.

It's really a combination of inactive leadership + no DM support. We can do without one or the other and manage ourselves, provided Amian players actually played by the rules.

It's when all 3 is lacking, then it's just complete chaos.

I didn't have DM support, like I said, on any of these issues that actually bother us. But we quite literally changed murderville into a place to RP in a few months in my term. And murderville isn't an exaggeration. People, quite literally, would come into the Dale and murder people. And in exchange, Bendir people murdered anyone that annoyed them. In one instance, this guy chased someone all the way to Minmir's Bridge because they had a hood on. Does that sound crazy to you? Because that's how it was before my term. Did the DMs do anything about that? Sure didn't. Did the leadership? Nope. Did any of the players care? Not really.

Feel free to look through the Report Box if you don't believe me and see what kind of reports were filed and how quickly they were addressed in my term. Compare that to what kind of reports are being filed now and if they are ever addressed at all.

Players can make a difference. We didn't do it last time because DMs stood up for us. Because they didn't. And it's unrealistic to expect a DM would be able to be there for us for every issue we have, especially if they really are frequent as we claim they are.

Alright folks.

Mana only recently announced to step down so there wasn't a new assignment for the Dale.

I can however say that "small" things like posessing the militia, any DM can do. So if that is needed just grab the next one available.

Secondly... ignoring racial or personal bans is against the rules. If no DM happens to be available and they go past the gates and ignore it, screenshot it and send it to any of us.

Outside the gate it is a tad more tricky as the law isn't so hard enfoced by the NPC militia there unless it's a true urgent problem (alas people tossing around hellballs and what have you nonsense).

At any rate, I can try to keep an eye on things there for now as good as possible.

But again, ignoring the bans past the racial gates is Metagaming the guard and should be reported immediately, with screenshots preferrably of course. Because even if we keep an eye on things we cannot be there 24/7.

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I don't think people misunderstand this on want to "shit all over" your RPing, but we are a public server and that means that you can't always (and in fact usually don't) have RP that is just "your" RP. You have to and GET to Role Play with other people.
This does mean however that if you want to flourish as a town or faction or group that you will have interactions with other players. And I think I get not that it stems from wanting to keep the RP that you love intact but the way Bendir has been enforcing their bans so forcefully outside the city walls themselves probably hurts more than it helps, especially since its a blurry area about what the guards would actually enforce out there.


As for the DM issue, if the team ever went insane enough to toss me a hat and I'd do it XD. >.> Although I'd probably also do some things that many in Bendir might not care for so...

The problem there is that Mana may have been assigned to the dale, but Mana wasn't -at- the Dale. I have nothing against Manarethan or any of the DMs personally, but the last time we actually had a Bendir Dale DM in the same sense that Cordor has Cordor DMs or Tarkuul has a Tarkuul DM was when Bobo was still DM side.

And again, the issue with asking for militia possessions is that 9.5 out of 10 times, when they're needed, there are no DMs online. Which again, I'm not pointing fingers at the DMs and saying "you should be online more often so I can tattle!" because I realize that DMs are human beings and have lives outside of Amia. What I'm saying is, people have gotten very bold with their rule breaking because they know that the DMs are busy with their own things, none of them involve Bendir, so there's a very low chance they'll actually get more than a slap on the wrist for it.

And while I agree with Tomato that a good IC leadership system is important, players who break rules are gonna break rules regardless of how solid our IC leadership is. Because IC leadership is IC, and rule breaking is an OOC mentality problem. We can't make Bendir Dale a friendly, welcoming RP space that a halfling village should be -and- deal with OOC metagamers and rulebreakers at the same time. We really do need that eye in the sky so players can know that even though there isn't a DM on right this minute, there will be one on, and on in BENDIR DALE, at any moment. The presence of authority goes a long way to deter crime. When it's only IC authority and it's halflings versus others, Equalizer's metaphor of chihuahua vs. rottweiler becomes reality. And that's an IC issue we can handle, IC. But when it's a DM authority, at least that can deter the out of character crap that spawned this thread in the first place.

But I do appreciate the help you're offering, Amarice. We'll keep with the screenshots and reports, but ultimately I think we really do just need a mother hen DM. If not because we're a faction, then because Bendir is such a highly trafficked and consequentially a high-conflict area.

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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster

Again. Missing the point.

But for the record, it was NO ONE'S IDEA to expand the ban to outside the walls. It was one person's decision to do so. Most of us thinks it's stupid and unenforceable. We were shocked to find that it was even allowed, since DMs were vehemently against it before when someone else suggested it eons ago.

Even then, do you understand what we do with banned people? If Bendir Dale is to egregious in how we handle our bans, then Kohlingen and Cordor must be unimaginable tyrants. We ask the BANNED PEOPLE to leave politely. We talk to them. We listen to what they have to say. We even allow them to appeal their ban in more ways than one.

Really. No one is saying "Everything that happens in Bendir must be and approved by the community". I'll take even every other day without bullshit to what it is right now. Because I quite literally haven't had a day where I didn't have to talk to someone that was explicitly banned from the Dale or someone in the community wasn't attacked inside and/or right by the NPC guards. Not a SINGLE day.

This is an issue I really feel stems from the general feeling of oppression that we (or at least I) have as players in the face of all this. So much of the conflict in Bendir has become less about IC interaction and more about server rulebreaking, metagaming, and just showing up for the sake of fighting people (which again is metagaming the NPC guards) that we've become exasperated and it's showing in the way we RP our law enforcement. Because we've had such little success in other avenues of dealing with this issue, we've been forced into this situation where our only method of responding to the rulebreaking is IC conflict, and the more it happens and the more pissed off we all get OOC, the harsher our characters become IC. Even characters who do things right and keep everything IC and play legitimately get the 3rd degree where we roll out the riot shields and tear gas because it's just all that pent up frustration being released.



I'm right with you here, but I don't see it happening.

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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster

Except we have actually reduced trolling, PvPing, and metagaming without DM support in the past.

We've reduced it, but at what cost? The last significantly effective method I remember was the loiter ban, and that cripplingly stagnated Bendir's RP until it was lifted. IC leadership is a great thing. If Bendir's leadership were to lift certain racial bans, retract the ban enforcement to inside the walls only, dial back the emphasis on violent law enforcement methods, and any number of other decisions, we might reduce these problems significantly. But the problem there is that it has to be IC. And if the IC people elect an IC leader who doesn't want to do these things, we're still left with the problem without an IC way to fix it. We can't tailor the ideas and decisions of other people's characters and government decisions for the sake of fixing an OOC problem. We can take it IC, but it's still up to other characters, their personalities and how their players play them.

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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster

I'd like to apologize for my IC observations being pointed out to have caused such stress, but at the same time, this is obviously something that has been a long time coming and if it took my IC words to spur someone to addressing it so that something can be done, then I am glad for that. I love the Dale. It drives me insane ICly with its rampant chaos and often idiotic run through peeps but I love it all the same. I don't play a resident of the Dale but it is the first place I go when I log in on most occassions as I know I am likely to find at least someone to RP with. Yes, it would be nice to have some events take place surrounding the Dale and even just random interactions would add something to it. It would definitely make the metagamer/powerbuilder/I'll whoop your ass bc I can people think twice about doing something stupid and effing up everyone's day. Anyhow, I hope it all works out and I'll make a mental note to start taking more SS even though I don't live there. Good luck Dalers.

MOD

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Isys ~ Daughter of Earth and Life
Ronnie ~ Without darkness, one cannot full appreciate the light
[MIA]Walker ~ Priestess of the Helping Hand

No need to apologize, I wasn't upset with you OOC (or IC, really, just frustrated). The whole interaction was really just flame to a fuse that's been getting shorter and shorter for a really long time now.

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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster

You must have a selective memory because our PvP count nor our metagame trollers were reduced significant with the no loitering thing when Lyle put that in there. Even then, it didn't reduce the RP in the Dale unless you want to argue that the Dale's been completely dead since Lyle's term up until Missus lifted it over a year later.

And yeah, that's why having leadership that's NEVER AROUND is a problem because they could be doing something and instead they do nothing to address the problem, or make it worse because they just have no fundamental concept of what is even the problem.

Amarice and every DM before her have already said the same thing. DMs can't watch an area 24/7. Not for us, not for Cordor, not for Kohlingen, and not for Wiltun. NO ONE does that. Whatever you think Cordor has over has, it's still not 24/7 guardianship and DM won't be on to deal with everything that comes up.

I also don't agree to conceptualize all of this as an OOC problem. Even the "enlightenment" you had was over an IC interaction. Honestly, the IC inaction has a lot to do with people's perception just as much as OOC inaction. It both feeds into this problem we have. There's not going to be one magical solution that'll fix everything.

This. This is THE problem.

Bendir Dale is the RP center of the server, and it bans evil characters from it's ranks. Evil characters have no where else to go!

What good is being a badass if you can't flaunt it once in a while? And presently, the server has nowhere for evil characters to do that. Bendir Dale is just the best place for it, unfortunately.

This is probably a poor analogy, but you can think of the evil characters like water, and all the hubs of RP as boats. Bendir Dale just has the weakest hull. You want to fix this, give the water somewhere else to go. Everyone will be happier.

I'm not suggesting that having a Bendir DM will be a magical solution to everything, I'm just saying it will help to deter metagaming and server rule breaking. And yes, you're right. Good IC leadership will do a lot to make things better. But that alone isn't the solution either. And from what I remember of the no loiter law, it was rough at first, but eventually, the streets were clear. And so was Bendir. And no, it isn't all an OOC problem. But a whole lot of it is.

But regardless, the purpose of this thread isn't to talk about the IC. It's to talk about the OOC. Hence the OOC indicator on the thread title. IC leaders will flow with the IC interactions, but OOC rule breakers will not. And the fact of the matter is, we won't always elect the best candidate for promoting great IC interactions. The IC leadership, while important, is subject to the decisions of characters IC. A DM's presence is not.

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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster

It's early in the morning and I can't wrap my head around reading and taking in all the replies at the moment, but I'd like to mention (if it hasn't already been mentioned) one particular IC quality to the bans in place.

That is, if someone is banned, they are not forbidden from travelling the road in Bendir Dale, so long as they don't hang around.

As for DM oversight and ignoring the NPC guard, I've personally witnessed that a few times and I believe I have the screenshots somewhere. I've attempted to called DMs before, but it's been bad luck most of the time as there hasn't been a DM on, or the DM has been busy with Cordor or the like.

Perhaps if a DM spent some time operating a few of the NPC guards in Bendir, it would intimidate people into not meta'ing them.

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I'm sorry. I must have missed the part where being evil is equitable to being a rulebreaking jackass. Because none of us have anything against evil people OOCly.

IC is a different story. Being evil means PEOPLE DON'T WANT YOU AROUND. Because I don't know? You're evil? If you don't like that, then really, it's not for you. Going around any town saying, "Hey. I'm a jackass" makes other people go, "Ew. You're a jackass". Like that in real life. Like that in RP.

Halfling is the only major race in Faerun that have no evil in the Pantheon. If humans, with the biggest number of evil worshipers, don't want evil people around, then we sure as hell don't. Bendir Dale pretty much bans most evil things. We're not a neutral town. Hins are undeniably good. With the "dark" counterpart of Yondalla being Neutral.

Trust me, I totally understand this feeling. And honestly, if you want to be an evil badass, grab a DM, tell them you're gonna go fuck up some hins, and then by gods go do it. But what I'm asking is that you do it right and give us a chance rather than showing up and ignoring the NPC guards.

And also, that's one of the challenges of playing an evil badass character. You get banned from places that are intolerant of evil characters. There are a million other ways to show how evil and badass your character is outside of killing people at Bendir Dale. Haunt the Forest of Despair. Rob people in the frontier as a highwayman. Go places where evil would be- outside and lurking in the dark places for the unsuspecting, rather than hopping off the cart at the most populated hub in the server with a sword and a bloodthirst.

Honestly, though. If you absolutely must be Scrubslayer, the Dark Hand of Justice, please get a DM first and give us a chance to react. That way when you kill us all, at least we can't bitch about how you were breaking server rules and ignoring bans.

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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster

At some point recently, I believe, the laws were changed to extend some bans to the roads, as well as the enforcement of laws such as the no drawn weapons law. There are different degrees of banning, last I checked. One being banned from the dale proper only with allowed passage, one being banned from the entire area as a whole, and one being kill-on-sight.

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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster

It's not intimidation we want. We just want people to respect us that we're not "snuggle rabbits". However little people think of us and our RP really shouldn't translate to "Well then we can do whatever the hell we want because these people don't matter and they're most likely not strong enough to kill me anyway".

We do matter. We're member of the community like everyone else. And we would like people to respect the server rules like they do in ANY OTHER LOCATION but Bendir Dale. We don't exist purely for the purpose of entertaining people's thirst for PvP or get their evil grooves on. Especially since the Dale has the least number of level 30 character compared to all other major factions.

This is really just the kind of IC mess we are in, really. The two that Ruff is distinguishing doesn't actually exist in reality, except that it does. Hence, well, the mess. The IC thing does say you actually can't be in the area at all if you go off of what is written in the forums. However, when you talk to the leadership IC, they say what LeathanKayne said. What does that mean? I don't know. But sure must be confusing to be a person that's banned.

Again, it really boils down to how unenforceable it is to ban people from the entire area. What LeathanKayne said was how it always was. I'm really not sure what's going on now since there are quite literally contradicting accounts. Even with KoS, we still let them pass through the area. Godo's a good example. Most of us don't kill Godo when we see him, despite the Kill on Sight. And most people really don't ever make it to the KoS list.

The problem is (in my opinion, of course) that the Dale is the only major town on the server with so much important stuff outside its walls. Cordor, Wharftown, Kohlingen, and Uhm all have their cart stops in town; the Dale does not. There's PC housing outside the walls, where citizens live; do they not deserve protection? The Dale makes pretty much all of its living off of agriculture, the only in-game representation of which is the eastern orchards; obviously those need to be looked after. The cemetery isn't as much of a big deal, but it's been the target of graverobbers and necromancers more than once, despite Ritty standing right there.

The better solution isn't retracting the enforcement zone. It's *expanding* it: declaring that all of the "Bendir Dale" map is Bendir Dale, and if you're banned, you're banned, end of discussion. Cordor, Uhm, Wharftown, and Kohlingen don't let banned people "just pass by" at their cart stops; it's ridiculous to expect the Dale to.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

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As I have understood it, both IC and OOC (whether this is the truth or not) is as follows:

- If a person is banned from the Dale, it's the entire Dale. They are not forbidden from travelling the roads or using the carts, but must not linger to talk with others as it can lead to problems (They were banned for a reason!)

- If a person is "Kill on sight", as dictated both in the forums and what Finntram has been told ICly, is that the person gets 'one' warning to leave the Dale. If they don't, they're attacked.

- There are no -actual- kill immediately on sight without warnings in place with the exception of one or two very specific cases noted in the ban list.

What's the difference between "Banned" and "Kill on sight"? Almost none. It is simply the amount of tolerance we have to their presence. Both categories are allowed to travel the roads and use the carts. Both categories are not supposed to linger. The difference is that there will be more warning and diplomacy involved with a "Banned" person, where as a "Kill on sight" person will be told to continue on their way and leave 'or else!'.


On a side note, one thing that irked me recently was when Finntram had to insist that a wizard remove his helm inside the Dale proper. When the wizard objected saying he needed the helm on for his mind, Finntram (I) questioned him as to how he got through the gate, to which he answered that he followed someone else through.

This is a meta instance for sure, though I didn't make a big deal out of it aside from ICly making him show his face. People need to remember that WITHOUT DM supervision, you are not allowed to bypass the gate guards in any way, whether sneaking in or waiting for someone else to open the gates for you.

Note though that we can't get too pissed off about this as there are new people to the game sometimes and they don't know the rules. Experience players though should have their asses handed to them by the DMs XD

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Except everywhere else is clearly marked territory. Even North Cordor and outer part of Kohlingen is walled in. The Dale's the only open map place with closed in walls. Uhm for example has parts outside of Uhm's wall on the same map that I'm sure is still considered Uhm territory, but it's literally nothing. Just transitions. Unlike ours, where we have residential areas and so forth. Even then, if you want to expand the ban area somehow despite all of its limitations, you are a Captain now. I hope you will be doing something about it IC.

On a related note, the carts, just so that everyone is clear OOC, is NOT for transportation. That is NOT the IC purpose or the story of the cart system. The cart system's fundamental purpose is to get the goods circulated throughout the island. The transportation part is "under the radar" side business that the drivers do and is not recognized by Cordor as an official business. So it has to stay within a reasonable distance of the trade route destination. That's why it's always inside the premise, regardless of the settlement, and never outside. The Dale and Guldorand are the only two exceptions to things being outside the walled area.

Yeah... Some of the parts, your understanding is a bit off the mark but I think it's something that's better addressed ICly than OOCly.

But for example, there are no actual kill on sight because of server PVP rules. It has nothing to do with Bendir Dale. Everyone gets an out. Some people have argued that just by entering somewhere that you're banned, that's already "a forfeit" but we just like to be on the safe side and give people a warning.

Tomato, the Grove and the Eilistraeen shrine both define their territory as "to the edge of the map," even if there aren't any walls or dividing lines that would be clearly identifiable IC. It's not so absurd to do the same for the Dale.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

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The Grove and the Shrine doesn't have 3 carts either, nor are they essential to getting across three different parts of the island.

I'd argue that the Grove-governed road through Amia Forest is pretty essential, since it's the same road we're talking about in the Dale except a few steps more northerly. But my point was just to establish that there is precedent for a settlement declaring that "all this map are belong to us" even regardless of the absence of walls.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

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