AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - *Theme from Jaws.* New player, odd question.

Don't you people judge me, it's SHARK WEEK!

Anyway I've been spending the evening browsing the site and downloading the Hak (which is takin' for-freakin'-ever... *Kicks wireless*).
I love shifters, so I'ma probably be rolling up a master of many forms. One thing I'm really curious about, though...

To be a MoMF, you have to be a druid. MoMF can turn into undead. Druids abhor undead.
I can't make sense of that. If I remember right, at least the undead shape feat is choice-only, but... I dunno, I guess I'm asking is Druid lore overlooked for the sake of using this feat? I'd feel kind of weird using it regardless, 'cause it's kinda hard to be all "Undead are unnatural and should be destroyed!" and then have the ability to... y'know, turn into one.

Don't rp as a druid then.

... What Cerpin means is...

On Amia, you can become a shifter without being a druid ICly. You still have to take 5 druid levels mechanically, but you can say you're not a druid. In exchange, you can't use the companion or the spells, but you can use metallic weapons, heavy armors, and those unsavory shapes like Undead Shape.

If I recall correctly, pure druids don't have access to Undead shape. Just Dragon Shape, Wild Shape, and Elemental Shape.

Believe the answer is.. if you only take 5 Druid levels to meet the wildshape requirement for the Shifter PRC.. you dont need to RP being a Druid..

However if you take anymore than 5, You're an undead hating tree hugger.

Edit : Beat me to it.. but whats said by Tomato

But also keep in mind, whilst it may be controversial and not commonly done, you still could possibly be a druid + shapeshifter who takes on forms like that. Other druids may hate you for it, and you may have to explain your reasoning very carefully to the DM's, but it's possible. Do what you want to do.

Gobbledygook wrote:

But also keep in mind, whilst it may be controversial and not commonly done, you still could possibly be a druid + shapeshifter who takes on forms like that. Other druids may hate you for it, and you may have to explain your reasoning very carefully to the DM's, but it's possible. Do what you want to do.

... Since when?

I see, I see.
I'm not accustom to the whole "take this class, pretend it's something else" sort of scenario. Good to know.

And lol I don't think there is any justification out there for a Druid to be turning into undead. I think any deity would smack them with the divine spellfailure hammer before any other Druids could get around to killing them. xD

Gobbledygook wrote:

But also keep in mind, whilst it may be controversial and not commonly done, you still could possibly be a druid + shapeshifter who takes on forms like that. Other druids may hate you for it, and you may have to explain your reasoning very carefully to the DM's, but it's possible. Do what you want to do.

I'm not completely 100% on Druids.. I'll admit that..

But isnt Undead like.. the Number one thing for druids to completely abhor with every sense of their being?

BlackestAtrocity wrote:

Gobbledygook wrote:

But also keep in mind, whilst it may be controversial and not commonly done, you still could possibly be a druid + shapeshifter who takes on forms like that. Other druids may hate you for it, and you may have to explain your reasoning very carefully to the DM's, but it's possible. Do what you want to do.

I'm not completely 100% on Druids.. I'll admit that..

But isnt Undead like.. the Number one thing for druids to completely abhor with every sense of their being?

It is.
Even those who follow the evil Druid deities/furies/etc have something against them.
They're just not natural, they're completely against the whole natural order of things, which every Druid promotes in one way or another.

Alright! Here's a DM answer (And welcome, good man!)

You don't have to RP being a druid if you take only 5 levels of druid to reach the Shifter requirement. Then, you can freely assume Undead forms. Even evil nature gods-- such as Talona, who loves using Undead (Her Shamans, clerics, and servants find undead creative and useful)-- don't allow for their druids to use Undead. So no-- if you ARE a Druid and you do Summon undead, or even turn into the form, you'll receive a fall. Not because you went against the will of your Deity necessarily, but because you breached your Druidic Oaths.

Just like a Paladin of Kelemvor could fall for breaching his Paladin oaths, even though he's doing something that could probably be accepted in the Church of Kelemvor.

Druids and Paladins alike are just a kind of servant to a God.
~~~~
There's also another alternative. Its currently a topic being discussed behind the scenes, but you could take about 10 druid levels or so and RP them as a Shaman class instead. So you still receive spells, just don't use your companion. For the time being, however, anyone that's wanting to do this should PM one of the DM's with a small micro-request, so we can talk it over and makes things clear (As well as keep tabs on it).

5 levels of Druid -- Feel free to forget about being a Druid. Any more, and you -are- either a druid unless we do some talking. And if you are, then you cannot assume Undead shapes. Well, you -can-. But we would fall you.

Alrighty, thankya for the answer and the welcome.
I still haven't decided if I wanna go more than 5 Druid levels, or fill out with some rogue instead for some utility (and c'mon, shifter and rogue are beautiful together, RP-wise). I'll be sure to nix Undead Shape if I go more Druid.

Definitely look at the Shifter spreadsheet if you haven't already. Its a lot of mechanical information, but it'll help.

Shifters are a ton of fun though, even with their recent changes. Plus they're incredibly open-ended to customization in the future.

Just keep in mind shifter class has received complete overhaul when you plan your character's abilities and levels.

Also, welcome to Amia! :mrgreen:

Edit: Hackums, you ninja!

Oh yeah, I made sure to see if the class was changed/improved. I played NWN years ago, and I recall this class... well, sucking, basically, compared to what other classes could do. So the fact that this place made them a little nicer sealed the deal for me. :3

Edit: SEALed the deal...
There's a shark joke in there somewhere.

Mr. Hackums wrote:

Alright! Here's a DM answer (And welcome, good man!)
Even evil nature gods-- such as Talona, who loves using Undead (Her Shamans, clerics, and servants find undead creative and useful)-- don't allow for their druids to use Undead. So no-- if you ARE a Druid and you do Summon undead, or even turn into the form, you'll receive a fall. Not because you went against the will of your Deity necessarily, but because you breached your Druidic Oaths.

Alright, so this is what I have an argument against.

Turning into an Undead being does not pervert the natural way. It doesn't draw more negative energies into the world, and it isn't doing something to an unwilling spirit. I completely understand that many druids would hate the idea of doing this. But does a shifter who becomes an undead being through shapechanging actually count as an undead being in the eyes of the Gods? I assume whichever deity it is must ultimately make the decision here.

Going with the Talona example. She doesn't allow for her druids to use Undead. I'd say that you are not using undead by assuming the temporary shape of one. You are just imitating what the undead does, etc.

I couldn't find that topic in Rules/Lore about how to play a druid, so I'm assuming it has been removed. Is the Druidic Oath available for players to have a look at?

I don't think it matters that it's not doing something unwilling to a spirit, or not 'drawing more negative energy'.
You are still undead. Fully. Not an illusion of any kind, you BECOME one. And undead are completely unnatural. They have no place in the 'circle of life', they straight up violate the laws of nature.
Druids don't hate them because they're evil and bring negative energy, it's because they're unnatural. Likewise why they detest aberrations (though Malar confuses me there, as they refuse to slay deepspawn, but).

Gaaah my files just finished downloading. I can sleep.

I shall be rolling up tomorrow.

As Hackums said; it's being discussed behind closed doors. So there's no point in arguing the current rule of 5+ druid levels = no undead shifting

Also, welcome, new person!

Ah, what's being discussed is the ability for players to freely choose Shamans instead of Druids without formal requests. There was a bit of a spree a while back, but its eased off some. And there's nothing against folks who are playing them now (Some play really neat examples), it was more a matter of-- "Zomg, where dese Shamans coming from!"

I don't think we have anywhere the specifics of a Druidic Oath, which could maybe be changed to better help players understand! I'd invite Amarice to talk about it (When I asked the same questions myself, it was Gunz I was talking to). I think some druidic oaths vary in simple flavor, but most, very vaguely are bound by oath to uphold the natural order. Druids are a completely different kind of servant than a ranger or cleric of the same deity.

I would happily discuss why the ruling exists for Undead Shapes, but I don't want to clutter the man's question with some of our own discussion. And, to be honest, the topic has been thoroughly discussed. So its not so much a debate of a ruling, as an explanation.

Is there any talk of including an actual mechanical Shaman character class in the next hak update? The druids-as-not-druids thing has always seemed kind of halfassed, to me.

No because we'd need a full new class for that.

Shamans are nowhere like druids when it comes to how they are set up. They do not get animal companions etc... tbh if someone wanted to play a full shaman I'd rather recommend them to pick another class to emulate it.

The shaman for druid is just an exception for the shapeshifter thing.

I don't personally agree. Though I will admit its a point of discussion. And even though we disagree, I will happily agree that should you wish to emulate the Shaman-- or really, any other class that's not the specific class you're taking, you should run it by the DM team. Inquire about it with a DM, and he or she will likely tell you if you need to make a specific request for it, or if its simpler lore that you can request custom abilities for down the road. Best bet-- ask a DM!
~~~

Looking up the Shaman in the Complete Divine (pg 14 [I found it, Suhjet!]), the very language it uses to describe the Shaman makes it sound as if the comparison from Shaman to Druid is the closest of all the other classes.

Complete Divine wrote:

Characteristics: Spirit Shamans cast divine spells much the same way druids do, though they get their spells from powerful spirits of nature. Their spells, like the druids, are oriented toward nature and animals.

A Shaman's main attribute is Wisdom, similar to the Druid. However, it also includes Charisma to determine spell resistance and DC's. But none of the NWN classes have duel-spell attributes like that, so it'd be hard to emulate that specific piece with any class. They have the same armor proficiency and weapon proficiency. And similar class skills. It even says that a Spirit Shaman casts divine spells from the druid spell list. The only difference is like the difference between a Sorcerer and a Wizard-- the Shaman casts from a pool like a bard.

Forgoing an animal companion really seems the very minimal when in most every other way, they're rather related to the Druid class.
~~~~

So while I disagree that another class would be best suited to emulate a Shaman, I will certainly stand beside my fellow DM and say-- Just bring it forward to us and we can try to work out an understanding. Requests of this nature aren't too difficult, and require simple, rudimentary knowledge of the class you're trying to emulate.

Most of the spells rather match the NWN arcane ones though. The spirit animal also is more similar in what it does to a familiar than it is to a druid.

They cast spells from the druids spell list though, and don't really get any form of animal companion/familiar (or one that anyone else can see, by standard) so I do think, like Hackums, it is be the best choice to represent it (but should still need a request to fully represent it as even then it only really does it with the spells it offers - everything else is dramatically different)

I don't mean to derail the current discussion (no sarcasm -- it's interesting!) but I have another question.
ECL races: can they not reach 30? In example, a Svirfneblin with +2 ECL will only be able to reach level 28 max?

Sadly, that is correct.

Naivatkal wrote:

Sadly

Hey, most ECL+1 / +2 races you can hardly tell they're lower than 30 when they cap!

(And play a Svirf! Do eeeeet!)

Heh, I love Svirfneblin, but I dunno.

Two more things...
How important is concentration for a shifter? I know they get abilities in many of their forms, but are things like the wyrmling breath subject to interruption?

And how useful is disable device/open lock here?

RogueShark wrote:

Heh, I love Svirfneblin, but I dunno.

Two more things...
How important is concentration for a shifter? I know they get abilities in many of their forms, but are things like the wyrmling breath subject to interruption?

And how useful is disable device/open lock here?

1. No.
2. Eeeh, Disable is good for the end-game areas, especially The Abyss. Open Lock you'll live without.

So concentration isn't really that important I'd wager? Since they get infinite castings anyway?

And that's disappointing. But good to know, I'da been disappointed if I maxed out open lock and found it was useless.
Now I just gotta decide between rogue or master scout.

I wouldn't say that Open Lock is useless, remember also it can be handy for RP value and events where you actually need to open a lock. So I'd judge it based on if there is more important skills to get, and weigh it also on if it fits the char.

*Sob.* I have to wait for my online CD key from GoG.

Yeah, I hate the delayed CD keys. But welcome to Amia!

Theme from Jaws. New player, odd question.

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