AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

How does a wizard fight a Shifter..? They can go into iron golem mode, have saves higher than any of your spell DC's, 700+ HP, and uber high AC making grasping spells ineffective; and timestop on Amia doesn't let you attack during it.

What's a wizard supposed to do to that, and other colossal threats like that? Go squish?

Spellcasters are the most dangerous burst class in NWN. There are plenty of decent ways to whittle down a shapeshifter, but it won't, nor should be easy. I'll give you a tip, though: some of the most dangerous spells in NWN don't allow for saving throws in the first place. Missile Storm and Greater Ruin (Which deals double damage against constructs) spring to mind... Good luck.

PS. Your Grasping Hand won't miss against a golem-shifter. I can guarantee you as much. Their AC is far worse than you're thinking.

I've had a shifter inform me of some crazy AC they can get - maybe it wasn't with golem shape though.

Well, what about if they go wraith and HiPS? I'm paranoid about pvp, I must know how everything works or I'm terrified of it, and as I play a character who's prone to pvp, I'm obsessing over these things

You could search for 'experts' in-game and ask them for advise, if you find your character worried about such things. Shapeshifters will always be more flexible than you, though. To be perfectly blunt with you, don't expect to beat a skilled, well-equipped one alone at all. It's akin to the fact that most evil-aligned people will never defeat a proper charisma-heavy smiting paladin.

As a final note, I hope you aren't as prone to PvP as you claim. You'll quickly find out that most Amians are very hostile towards such an attitude, no matter how well justified it is.

MisterLich wrote:

Well, what about if they go wraith and HiPS?

Wizards have some of spot bonus spells, and using proper light spells always helps.
Try to ask someone IC about this

And about PvP - I'm afriad many people indeed get loosing too hard...

Shifter hiding is really crappy, so unless you have no rank in spot, it really won't be hard to spot them. Unlike a normal character that can stack 50 from items, Shifters, at best, has 10-20 bonus to Hide. It's also highly unlikely a shifter would have Skill Foci (Epic and pre-epic) in hiding skills.

There are swarms of spot items you don't even need to mythal to get on Amia available across multiple shops. Even if you had 10 wisdom and had 40 from items and 10 from True Seeing, that's still +50 bonus. Add any ranks you may have in Spot (1-33), skill focus (3), epic skill focus (10), alertness (2), and racial bonus (only the feat ones really stack beyond cap, like elf's), I'd be hard pressed to believe anyone that ever considered spotting someone won't be able to detect a Shifter in any of the hiding shapes.

PvP isn't really about losing. It's about the fact there's really no consequence on Amia. I've thrown people that lost into lavas and they just ooze out of the ground 2 seconds later. Even if you kill someone smack in middle of a town, most of the cases I've seen haven't resulted in any IC consequence beyond expression of distaste. I know. I've been killed in towns plenty of times. It's just a boring e-pen flex fest that ends up being a complete waste of time for everyone involved.

MisterLich wrote:

Well, what about if they go wraith and HiPS? I'm paranoid about pvp, I must know how everything works or I'm terrified of it, and as I play a character who's prone to pvp, I'm obsessing over these things

They can HiPS only once per round. Which means that you can still get them with GR and some spells before they go back to the shadows. Shapechanging into a Red Dragon and spamming fire breath also helps (do not forget to cast Fox Cunning though before you shapechange!).

The most effective way of learning how to be good at PvP is constant practice. Some people don't know how to lose but you should not be discouraged by it. Follow the PvP rules and keep it IC. Above all try to give some RP to the people you kill and bite the bullet when you lose and be a sport.

Laiquendi Ohtar wrote:

Wizards have some of spot bonus spells, and using proper light spells always helps.

Also since in the past year and a half I was heavily involved with some of the most prominent shadowdancers on the server I have learned that light does not prevent a shadowdancer from HiPSing. I took their word for granted.

Dead wrote:

MisterLich wrote:

Laiquendi Ohtar wrote:

Wizards have some of spot bonus spells, and using proper light spells always helps.

Also since in the past year and a half I was heavily involved with some of the most prominent shadowdancers on the server I have learned that light does not prevent a shadowdancer from HiPSing. I took their word for granted.

If anything, light on a SD aids them in creating shadows.

Yaster Galer wrote:

Dead wrote:

Also since in the past year and a half I was heavily involved with some of the most prominent shadowdancers on the server I have learned that light does not prevent a shadowdancer from HiPSing. I took their word for granted.

If anything, light on a SD aids them in creating shadows.

Well I wouldn't go that far, its situational. If you are in a fairly open space (with no nearby objects or people to cast shadows) for example shadows that might be cast within your usable area by large objects at a distance such as trees/buildings/mountains suddenly become useless and it would make HIPSing impossible... Although darkness cures most all HIPSing woes so it is rather moot since most SDs have a lot of ability to cast it. Although all that is more RP than PVP related anyway.

Casting Light on a SD negates their HiPS ability. Unfortunately, we can't mechanically enforce it

Apparently it would cause too much lag, or something, because the checks would run too much. I dunno the full details, but I approached the subject with Sune before.

As far as I know the hide skill does take a penalty when the character is in the radius of the light spell. It wont make hiding in plain sight any harder but it does make spotting the hiding person easier. So having a light spell on when you feel someone around you may be hiding isnt a bad idea.

That would be pretty cool. Always wondered about that, but never checked it haha.

Light does not in fact stop HiPSing in most situations despite what some might believe and I will try to explain why that is.

Now HiPS as per the P&P description can only be used within 10 feet of a shadow that is not their own, and light has a 20 foot radius! So clearly it isn't possible... however having a light on you does not mean that all shadow in a 20 foot area around you stop existing* but rather all objects within 20 feet will be casting their shadow away from you.
This means then that if there are any large enough objects (which includes other people) within about an 8 foot radius around you then they will be casting usable shadows within the 10 feet needed for HiPS.

*For the exception where light would make HiPSing impossible without darkness being used refer to my previous comment.

No, it doesnt stop the act of hiding in plain sight in NWN but it does incur a penalty to the hide skill. My post was purely based on the NWN engine.

Naivatkal wrote:

Casting Light on a SD negates their HiPS ability..

That's what I said. And then I was said otherwise.

Edit: Actually, apologies for giving opinions on matters I know little of, MisterLich.

Shifters are not OP as you think I have seen tons of people kill shifters.

Exaggerating like that helps nobody, least of all the guy actually asking for genuine information here.

For one, that's not how Spot works at all. If your Spot beats their Hide (and it would easily with 100+Spot), then they never disappear in the first place. And Negative Energy Protection screws over both Crippling Strike and a hefty amount of damage the wraith can even do.

There are no Restoration potions, only Lesser Restorations, which don't cure Bigbys. Heal potions help you (and your summons, which you should be using if you're an actual epic mage) too, so claiming they'd only help the shifter is a massively lopsided argument.

There's absolutely nothing OP about forms getting feats 'for free', no more than other classes getting some feats for free.

I mean, for crying out loud, they have no caster level. Just dispel them. Shifters depend rather highly on the buffs between their forms and from items, and without them, they're nothing but a mediocre version of the class they're emulating. I wouldn't have even commented, but it bothers me to see someone having took such a cynical opinion without even knowing all the facts.

Edit: Apologies to MisterLich for giving opinions, and to the other forumites who stumbled upon them.

Shifters used to be OP, but had a bunch of balancing up and down to bring them into line. If you have a good look at the Shifter Spreadsheet and pick up an understanding of what each form does, it's weaknesses or it's resistances, you can begin to formulate a plan to beat a shifter. It shows each change and the stats which they have.

As a Wizard, you're in the best position to plan for killing a particular shifter. Watch them and see what sort of forms they like to take. Most of us have favourites which we use more than others. The idea is to get a shifter to the point where you're going to null it's efforts so that it either has to change shape, or flee. When it changes shape is the most ideal time to really blast one, especially if it had low HP from previous efforts.

The only part of this I'm confused about are the mentioning of dispel, as if it dispels items (from the last paragraph of Sune's post). I was under the impression it wasn't possible to dispel items?

I meant buffs given from items, like potions, wands, scrolls and so on.

Hudson wrote:

As far as I know the hide skill does take a penalty when the character is in the radius of the light spell. It wont make hiding in plain sight any harder but it does make spotting the hiding person easier. So having a light spell on when you feel someone around you may be hiding isnt a bad idea.

The Light spell doesn't affect Hide at all, according to the Wiki: Light

O'Raghailligh wrote:

Hudson wrote:

As far as I know the hide skill does take a penalty when the character is in the radius of the light spell. It wont make hiding in plain sight any harder but it does make spotting the hiding person easier. So having a light spell on when you feel someone around you may be hiding isnt a bad idea.

The Light spell doesn't affect Hide at all, according to the Wiki: Light

Spot wiki says it does: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Spot

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Spot wrote:

Additional modifiers

+10 DC if the spotter is in combat.
+5 DC if the target is standing still.
-5 DC if the spotter is standing still.
Size modifiers (tiny: +8, small: +4, medium: 0, large: -4, huge: -8).
Area spot check modifiers.
+5 DC for stealthed players (only), if they are in the back arc.
+5 DC at night if the spotter does not have a light (or darkvision).
-10 DC at night if the target has a light on them.

"Has a light on them" and "has a light spell on them" are two very different things as far as the game engine is concerned.

A clue: there's a good reason casting light on others doesn't have a save (it does nothing).

No reason to say it like that. What they're trying to say is that it's a DM ruling that you cannot HiPS with light cast on you.

Actually... (from our shadowdancer lore thread)

Quote:

Q: Can HiPS be used if the shadowdancer has Light cast on them, but there are still objects to cast shadows within 10 feet of them?
A. Yes, though bear in mind that Light has a radius of 20 feet; twice that of the range a Shadowdancer needs to HiPS.

So they can, it's just more difficult in some cases.

MightNMagic wrote:

"Has a light on them" and "has a light spell on them" are two very different things as far as the game engine is concerned.

A clue: there's a good reason casting light on others doesn't have a save (it does nothing).

That light affecting DC is still probably what Hudson was thinking of when the point was brought up, so it deserved mention. Also, in the talk page of the light spell, there is an open question (for 5 years now) to confirm the light spell not affecting stealth.

Shifters?

Who is online