AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

As per the topic. I'd like a thorough discussion, with DMs weighing in, on just what a DMZ can and cannot kill, up to and including spells cast directly by gods.

If dead magic zones are the same as an anti-magic field (which I believe they are) then DnD rules are:

le SRD wrote:

No supernatural ability, spell-like ability, or spell works in an area of antimagic (but extraordinary abilities still work).
Antimagic does not dispel magic; it suppresses it. Once a magical effect is no longer affected by the antimagic (the antimagic fades, the center of the effect moves away, and so on), the magic returns. Spells that still have part of their duration left begin functioning again, magic items are once again useful, and so forth.
Spell areas that include both an antimagic area and a normal area, but are not centered in the antimagic area, still function in the normal area. If the spell’s center is in the antimagic area, then the spell is suppressed.
Golems and other constructs, elementals, outsiders, and corporeal undead, still function in an antimagic area (though the antimagic area suppresses their spellcasting and their supernatural and spell-like abilities normally). If such creatures are summoned or conjured, however, see below.
Summoned or conjured creatures of any type, as well as incorporeal undead, wink out if they enter the area of an antimagic effect. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away.
Magic items with continuous effects do not function in the area of an antimagic effect, but their effects are not canceled (so the contents of a bag of holding are unavailable, but neither spill out nor disappear forever).
Two antimagic areas in the same place do not cancel each other out, nor do they stack.
Wall of force, prismatic wall, and prismatic sphere are not affected by antimagic. Break enchantment, dispel magic, and greater dispel magic spells do not dispel antimagic. Mage's disjunction has a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field. If the antimagic field survives the disjunction, no items within it are disjoined.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Antimagic

That's about all I have to give for discussion at the moment :mrgreen:

(and because I know someone else would post this anyways).

I believe? dead magic areas are where the weave simply no longer exists, in that particular area. Full stop.

But, things such as the shadow weave revel in unaffected glory! A result of the time of troubles, unless the internet has false information on it again too?

Yup, dead magic areas are places where the Weave is just gone. The Shadow Weave works a-ok in those areas. I believe they can't be repaired by anything less than a Wish spell and they can't be "suppressed" by dispel magic or similar effects. Undead, constructs and so on can function normally within, except for the fact they can't use spells or spell-like abilities (as noted in that srd document). That's all I can think of, off the top of my head.

Presumably, a deity or similarly powerful entity would be able to repair a dead magic area, and would also be able to create them.

Is there any different ruling for shifters in this regard? Some of the rules such as what True Sight sees vs Shifters has been changed from PnP > this game. I noticed that Mathus' aura for example will unshift my shifter, but Antimagic from Beholder's Gaze, or the sort that once existed in the Cordor Prison do not. Are a shifter's ability to shift still considered supernatural in this sense?

You cannot shift in a dead magic zone / anti-magic field. Shifting is still a supernatural ability.

Alright, but once shifted, should it be affected also?

Last edited by Eurgiga on Sun, Apr 14 2013, 1:11 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I'm having trouble understanding why prismatic wall, etc would work period in a DMZ- there is no magic period. I.E., it would suggest that real-world rules apply: If there is nothing that would keep it there, it's not there. This is especially important for undead and deities- the former as their animation is magical (face it, however you phrase it the thing is not biologically alive), the latter as their powers are magical (even if fantastically powerful) (I think). I don't think magic, even gods, should get a 'free pass' to waltz through a DMZ without a fundamental failure of existence.

The DMZ seems like one of the true great equalizers on the side of mortals- that is, they can be largely unaffected by it, while vastly superior beings get their superpowers removed for a bit.

As a note, divine magic from deities being screwed over by an AMF or DMZ also suggests the deities themselves are subject to the same rules, albeit at a much higher level. A DMZ in my opinion is a step above a AMF in that it's a "black hole" of magic- a "nuh-uh" of infinite proportions, whereas even the gods are finite. That's why I reason that deities will get screwed by a DMZ.

Technically the antimagic field of the beerholders should unshift you, too. Hurray for the antimagic discount bin!

I don't know if it's possible to make it impossible to shift in the first place by making someone immune to polymorph or something but that's part of a planned upgrade request in the works to make the antimagic aura more accurate.

Eurgiga: There's no explanation for that other than "this is how this spell is specifically designed to work." I imagine if someone made some kind of epic antimagic spell (or perhaps an epic antimagic aura.... heh heh heh) it might disable even the prismatic and wall of force effects, or disable constructs and other beings who owe their locomotion to magic (NOT DRAGON DISCIPLES, stop hissing at me!)...

Eurgiga wrote:

A DMZ in my opinion is a step above a AMF in that it's a "black hole" of magic- a "nuh-uh" of infinite proportions, whereas even the gods are finite.

I'm pretty sure DMZ's are more potent, but I'd have to get my ass out of bed and do some research to see exactly how from the source material. Gimme a few....

All supernatural effects are stripped upon entering an anti-magic field or dead magic zone, so yes, you would be unshifted and unable to reshift until you left it.

As for deities.

Quote:

A salient divine ability functions normally within an antimagic field, and is never subject to spell resistance.

Thus, they are entirely unhindered by AMF. This means they are also unhindered by Dead Magic Zones, since Salient Divine Abilities are neither Supernatural or Extraordinary effects. They're a category of their own.

Yeah it wouldn't make much sense if deities were diminished by an AMF or DMZ lol

Manarethan wrote:

All supernatural effects are stripped upon entering an anti-magic field or dead magic zone, so yes, you would be unshifted and unable to reshift until you left it.

As for deities.

Quote:

A salient divine ability functions normally within an antimagic field, and is never subject to spell resistance.

Thus, they are entirely unhindered by AMF. This means they are also unhindered by Dead Magic Zones, since Salient Divine Abilities are neither Supernatural or Extraordinary effects. They're a category of their own.

Then what are their abilities if not magical? What is the force behind it? If at any point it's "magic", someone's cheated a step in the sourcebooks. You don't get to alter reality "just because".

So a cleric's ability would not work in these zones. Including activating domains?

Also, I need to know where these zones in Amia are, if any.

They are magic in the practical sense of the word, but they're the workings of the unnamed 'background magic/raw magical energy' that the Weave and Shadow Weave both contain and convert to be used by mortals.

Saying a dead-magic zone or anti-magic zone is a step above one another is a moot point as they don't exist in hierarchy with one another as their cause and the consequences of their existence to the use of spells and abilities is dramatically different, as everyone has already described.

Clerical spells while often called divine do draw their power from the Weave. It depends on the domain power in particular as some are supernatural abilities, while others are extraordinary abilities.

Eurgiga wrote:

Then what are their abilities if not magical? What is the force behind it? If at any point it's "magic", someone's cheated a step in the sourcebooks. You don't get to alter reality "just because".

Actually that's exactly what they do? Haha. Seriously though, there are Extraordinary, Supernatural, Spell, Spell-like, and Salient Divine abilities on the table here. Extraordinary and Salient Divine abilities work in antimagic fields because antimagic fields only work on Supernatural/Spell/Spell-like abilities. Dead magic fields are defined as working as Antimagic Field except it has no effect on the Shadow Weave, have no duration, and are harder to dispel (requiring wish/miracle).

Madrik: I hid one in your room.

Deities get to alter reality because they possess divine ranks, divine salient abilities and are defining forces in the universe. In essence, they do get to alter reality "just because". Just because they're deities.

Manarethan wrote:

Deities get to alter reality because they possess divine ranks, divine salient abilities and are defining forces in the universe. In essence, they do get to alter reality "just because". Just because they're deities.

While a rational scientific mind screams at this explanation, I have to remember that D&D is written by some... persons of negotiable intelligence. Still, it seems a real cop-out on Gygax's part. So what, say, is the most powerful thing an AMF could nuke? A DMZ?

I don't think it's really a cop-out, honestly. Salient divine abilities are a specific sub-category just like Extraordinary abilities, and they're exempt from anti-magic and dead magic zones. Anyway, the most powerful thing an AMF or DMZ could 'nuke' would presumably be whatever the most powerful supernatural or magical effect is.

>_>

You do realize that magic itself is a cop-out, right? It essentially just works because the game designers says it does. Yes, there's background for it but .... we're talking about deities. If a deity can cause/revert a AMF/DMA, why would said zone block their powers? They are deities, they can do nearly anything. It's in the job description, haha.

Sorry, I was letting this become a bitch thread. Apologies.

Is the soul affected at all by the DMZ/AMF? Specifically, in regards to a spell (Geas, for example) attaching to the soul and surviving the purge.

The real killer in this game is that technically Antimagic Field/Dead Magic Zones should only temporarily suppress magic, not completely destroy it. That's not possible to program (what a nightmare!) here, so I've just been going with WYSIWYG that Antimagic in this world just completely dismantles Supernatural effects, Divine and Arcane magic, and the like. That being said, a Geas/Quest or similar PNP magic would be disjoined upon entry, just like anything else.

So would this be just RPed out via DM? Is this possible to see in Amia?

In the past we just rp'ed it out

Manarethan wrote:

Presumably, a deity or similarly powerful entity would be able to repair a dead magic area, and would also be able to create them.

And yes, the fight when bane got whooped by Torm created a Dead magic zone. I assume people can repair a dead magic zone as it is an essential mission for Tormtar.

I also hope your referring to ulrik by saying a similarly powerful entity for your own safety? :p

Amia does not have any known dead magic zones.

If you can prove to me IC that your character has studied dead magic zones, I might relay some more specific information than what is available here. After all, I did run an entire event on another continent where people went through a Dead Magic Zone for a very long time. Of course, it was a modified Dead Magic Zone that had slightly different rules form the norm, but...

CelestialDante wrote:

In the past we just rp'ed it out

Manarethan wrote:

Presumably, a deity or similarly powerful entity would be able to repair a dead magic area, and would also be able to create them.

And yes, the fight when bane got whooped by Torm created a Dead magic zone. I assume people can repair a dead magic zone as it is an essential mission for Tormtar.

I also hope your referring to ulrik by saying a similarly powerful entity for your own safety? :p

Wasn't really a whooping, y'know - Torm died doing it and that was after he charged up by taking the souls of his followers in Tantras.

Also, I'm pretty sure DMZs can be restored by the Chosen of Mystra using Silver Fire. Not really relevant, because I'm pretty sure Amia is the only place in the world where there isn't like three of those running around, but it's there.

Wait, it unshifts people?

I thought you get stuck in whatever shape you were in o:

Does this matter if this was a SU ability vs. a SP ability?

Corsair wrote:

CelestialDante wrote:

In the past we just rp'ed it out

Manarethan wrote:

Presumably, a deity or similarly powerful entity would be able to repair a dead magic area, and would also be able to create them.

And yes, the fight when bane got whooped by Torm created a Dead magic zone. I assume people can repair a dead magic zone as it is an essential mission for Tormtar.

I also hope your referring to ulrik by saying a similarly powerful entity for your own safety? :p

Wasn't really a whooping, y'know - Torm died doing it and that was after he charged up by taking the souls of his followers in Tantras.

Also, I'm pretty sure DMZs can be restored by the Chosen of Mystra using Silver Fire. Not really relevant, because I'm pretty sure Amia is the only place in the world where there isn't like three of those running around, but it's there.

And thus the martyrs progeny popped up.

I'm positive dead magic zones have been discussed in game for Dm events and large scale pvp to be supervised by Dms. Though this was to compensate for the insane lag you would get from 50 or so people buffed up.

Tomato Sword wrote:

Wait, it unshifts people?

I thought you get stuck in whatever shape you were in o:

Does this matter if this was a SU ability vs. a SP ability?

No. SU and SP are both magical in natural, and so cease to function in Antimagic and Dead Magic.

You can read more about the specifics on special abilities here.

Oh yeah, Mathus can get drunk in a dead magic zone.

@Naivatkal - DANDWIKI is a homebrew rules/lore site and I wouldn't quote it with the tag "le SRD" because it's probably one of the last places I'd ever look to find any information.

And yet it holds all of the core DnD rules and information. Go figure.

Dead Magic Zones and What They Kill

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