AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

It isn't a discussion solely between Hackums and Needled, so Bini may interject when Bini pleases.

My point is your argument is incorrect. Most tactful players can come up with a threat more applicable to a character than "I'll split your marrowless bones!" and so long as it is not beyond their character's own knowledge, they may deliver it. It is a reality that most characters do not have family out and about the island, but every character has an abundance of social ties, their own projects, and dreams. These are all fair collateral for an evil PC to use when intimidating, threatening, or persuading another and as Hackum's said, far more effective to use than the tired old threat of violence.

This doesn't relate directly to Bane but I have some experience playing an evil overlord. For the better part of the first several years of Amias time as a server I spent a good chunk of time playing Drak'law Emberblaze. Ive played just about every side of the alignment box and various interpretations and cultural variations to boot but good and evil are my two favorite extremes, with a slight preferance for chaos but that's neither here nor there.

At any rate, I can proudly say that Drak was by in far one of my most favorite and memorable bad guys of all time and that every evil deed he did that earned him a place in Amias history books was due widely in part to purely role playing means. Draks build was laughably weak, he had beefy hps and wasnt to bad on spells but that was about all. I avoided PvP like the plague and yet Drak (with the help of his wife) rose from being a lowly mercenary sorcerer to the king of Wyrmhold and for a time before I left the server caller of the Dark Flight.

Now I won't say Drak never got in PvP but when he did usually he had minions with better builds do dirty work, tricked others into it or did so when he had a drastic advantage. However he never went looking for fights and would hide behind laws, authority, charismatic blather and falsely done good deeds (Drak is part of the reason Salandria even has a temple grounds and buried Benwicks dead at his own expense as a show of "respect" for his fallen foes for example)

Yes this is my own perspective and Drak worshiped Tchazzar (Tiamat in secret) who I may note is also a god of Tyranny so I can relate but to me one can never PvP or try to mostly avoid pvp and still be an evil force to be reckoned with, reviled and feared in the eyes of your fellow-humanoids. If you go looking for fights in PvP like some school yard bully trying to egg people on odds are you will only garner fear and respect from cowards. However if you leave heroes with hands tied unable to act against you while on the surface your making the world a better place because your such a benign despot your heroic adversaries will choke on their own rage trying to figure out how to justify killing such an upstanding all be it seemingly harsh person. If you do it right they can't even pull the your god is evil excuse because you can claim you venerate them in another aspect, after all Bane does have LN followers and not all evil beings are evil in any regard greater then their apathy towards the lives of others and willingness to go to harsh extremes to achieve a goal.

All in all its not about Bane, Cyric or (insert any organization, faith or philosophy here) its about the heavy handed unjustified, unnecessary and overused types of pvp conflicts people get sick and tired of. Nor is it winning or loosing, you can win all day but having to deal with the exact same pvp circumstances and people trying to provoke pvp the exact same way day in and day out is just plain tiring even if your side beats the tar out of them each and every time.

Quote:

Most tactful players can come up with a threat more applicable to a character than "I'll split your marrowless bones!"

When did all roleplay get simplified to the last line of a conflict; the death threat that somehow became bad roleplay? Realisticly, yes, that line and that line alone is bad roleplay -but- if you think that a threat against your character's life is considered bad roleplay then perhaps you need to think about any story that ever existed where there was any type of antagonist. I think it's almost humorous to think that the conflict RP on Amia is so neutered down that it's almost seen as "bad RP" to put another player's life in jeopardy.

Last edited by Sphinx on Sun, Mar 24 2013, 23:32 PM, edited 1 time in total.

exquisitelyme wrote:

Sorry for the off topic, but as someone who sees absolutely no valid reason to PvP with the server's death penalties, and someone whose experience in PvP recently included the possibly worst RP excuse to PvP I ever saw coming froma Banite group. I think the other 5 people who had their characters killed, 3 of which understood ZERO of what happened, 2 of which didnt get their OOC raises would agree with me.

IC actions, IC consequences, no OOC rules broken whatsoever. Please keep your inflammatory lies to yourself; our faction has hard enough time OOC as it is.

I would have spilled out an entire example, but some of the players involved are still active currently, and some might not even know that the threats were made.

But I will tell you that it worked.

In my specific example, there was actually a family, so it worked rather well. But it could work just as well for close friends. If people have a protective spirit, they're protecting -something-. Find out what they're protecting, and put it into jeopardy.

You'd asked why even bother to threaten someone/something that's not even there, presently. I always did it for the same reason why you separate prisoners. If you let the prisoners stay together, they build off of each others resolve and confidence. They become more rebellious. If you separate them, you invite the mind's imagination to conjure all kinds of horrible fates that they might experience. And in some cases (Not all) they'll experience fear. If not for themselves, for their companions.

Admittedly, yes. You have to be careful when threatening innocent (Or uninvolved) people and being a Banite. But there -are- ways to do it that won't jeopardize your lawful nature. Legal bindings, slavery, blackmailing, planting incriminating evidence, strong-arming-- to name a few. Another thing you can do is get people to come to you for help. I know this sounds really weird, as who would go to a Banite. But if you can set up this atmosphere (And it totally can be done), you can use these relationships to extract loyalty and favors.

I had a saying on Haan: "I'm not going to take his life. I'm going to destroy it. By the time I'm finished, he will no longer recognize the ruins. He will beg for death." If you don't think that threatening them physically will suffice, ruin their existence. Make them /want/ to die.

Its hard to answer, because I don't want to give too many specific examples, and I don't want to speak too vaguely.

I also shouldn't have to remind you guys that specific examples condemning players currently need to stay out of this thread. If there are issues, please take the concerns to the DM team instead of 'airing dirty laundry.'

I like your answer, and I can see that you've certainly got good ideas.

I suppose I'm just a little skeptical that the amian playerbase is going to let you take them seriously, considering all of the OOC protections they are afforded.

It depends entirely on the player. I've had a number of players come to me during my plots to just say "feel free to perma my character," and I've perma'd quite a few characters in events and even player side through pvvvvp. Not that I'm exceedingly proud of that! But there are players out there that do bite the bullet if biting the bullet is appropriate.

Edited, will keep my inflamatory lies to myself instead of witchhunting the poor baddies.

Silent2001 wrote:

It depends entirely on the player. I've had a number of players come to me during my plots to just say "feel free to perma my character," and I've perma'd quite a few characters in events and even player side through pvvvvp. Not that I'm exceedingly proud of that! But there are players out there that do bite the bullet if biting the bullet is appropriate.

Yeah, it's kind of a mixed bag, but I am going to go out on a limb here and hypothesize that if you're OOCly mad at the Banites (which a lot of people seem to be), enough to make you hostile towards them without any IC interaction, that you're likely not going to open your mind, and let a story thicken, because hates clouds judgement; therefore you will let any OOC protection afforded help you through your turbulence and furthering that, your only left impression is that the faction is a bunch of griefers because they've exhausted every other reasonable possibility before defaulting to needing to kill you.

Of course this is certainly a case-by-case basis, but I think it applies to a large number of people.

Needled247 wrote:

I think the "kneel or die" is an extremely brash example that has hardly ever happened. I've never actually seen it myself in any other context then if someone had insulted the church, or otherwise asked for this.

Brash is probably a decent adjective, yet the point remains that it is the kind of thing the most players remember most about their interactions with Banites. Yes, it's a generalization, but it also is a point of view almost universal with many of the players I've talked to about it. So the intimation that it's extremely rare is actually irrelevant as it only takes once to form an opinion of a person or organization.

As well, every single PvP I've been in where Banites have been involved, the aftermath needs DM oversight just weed out all the possible rules violations and complaints. And, since both sides are doing the complaining over something or another, I see it as Banite involvement that spawns the complaints, not the PvP itself. Most other PvP is settled amicably on both sides. Just because one Banite player only remembers others doing the complaining and not the banites involved doesn't make my own observations any less true, but it was a nice try to play the "holier than thou" card.

Quote:

As well, every single PvP I've been in where Banites have been involved, the aftermath needs DM oversight just weed out all the possible rules violations and complaints. And, since both sides are doing the complaining over something or another

Without pointing fingers either way, since it would be fruitless, I think my above post captures a lot that has to do with this problem.

Needled247 wrote:

How does one go about inspiring fear to one who has nothing to lose, even if they die, get decapitated and then 5 minutes later get up and walk away like nothing ever happened?

I did this for many of years playing a preistest of Lolth, Velve was her name, she rarely ever got or had the need for any sort of Pvp as players where scared to death to have anything to do with her, cause she had more power over people then what was needed in pvp. I gained politcal power and power to make someone hate life with only having to raise a finger and say disappointment, cause then everyone around me neglected that person, came to hate that person then started to plot against them. And when it came to plot against Velve, and I know it happen, no one took action cause they where too scared of the consiquinces of their actions. They would lose standing, their power, everything. Houses fell just because Velve said fine, we are at war. War never happen due to the political backlash on that house.

I had several assasains which was feared threw the fact he gained dirt on everyone and not only did he never really kill his targets himself, his targets found themselves dead due to the fact he was able to bend people into doing it for him.

That is fear. That is weeks/months/years of damage to people that cannot be found in... PVP

I have to say, playing a drow myself, that the two circumstances are largely too different to draw any type of parallels in methodology. For one, drow mainly deal with other drow, and they more or less have a template of what's "socially and morally acceptable" that if they don't follow, it makes them look stupid.

Needled247 wrote:

I have to say, playing a drow myself, that the two circumstances are largely too different to draw any type of parallels in methodology. For one, drow mainly deal with other drow, and they more or less have a template of what's "socially and morally acceptable" that if they don't follow, it makes them look stupid.

Sadly my assasain Chess Baul, was a human, I used the same concept I used when playing my drow, and to my shocking surprise, it worked just as well if not better on the surface then in the UD. So I am unsure why how it is two diffrent circumstances, due to the fact when I rolled anything that was "evil" over the years did I apply the same concept of deception, lies, and getting enough support from the shadows to get to the point in my toons life where people are too scared to act against them because of Political back storm. Both the surface and the UD. With out Pvp.

Needled247 wrote:

I like your answer, and I can see that you've certainly got good ideas.

I suppose I'm just a little skeptical that the amian playerbase is going to let you take them seriously, considering all of the OOC protections they are afforded.

I'm going to abuse this opportunity to promote this thread, which needs to be more known about because some of us actually do actively waive these protections. Though something tells me the people willing to do this aren't really the 'problem'.

The bad ooc reputation and ooc quarrels are an almost unavoidable side effect of conflict rp, and as amia is dominated by the good forces the blame will almost always rest with the conflict creating group. On this server that is evil. If amia revolved around a dominant evil society where the good guys are those in the minority the shoe would be on the other foot.

Instead of evil trying to get power it would be the good guys fighting for justice. We would not have banites ambushing Triadic Knights in amia forest, we would have Triadic Knights ambushing the tyranic forces of the banite government. Instead of slavers causing pvp by trying to find merchandise to sell, we would have good bandits trying to free slaves. It would also have to be the good guys who make damn certain they always follow pvp protocoll to the letter and never screw up in the slightest, lest the bad guys run to a dm whining.

I am quite certain we would soon have a topics called "Stupid Good: We need more behind the scenes good guys." and "Why good can never win."

This whole conversation is ridiculous. I'm sorry. Listen, what metalien and Hackums were saying was great. Then the rest of you had to ruin it by being drama queens.

If you think evil people are the only ones that gets shit for unrelated OOC crap, you're just completely delusional. OOC interfering with IC happens to all groups at all levels. Should it? No, it shouldn't. Does it? Yes. It's something that has always plagued Amia and OOC drama ruining things on IC side is common all across the entire server. Not just for evil factions. Of course it seems that way to people involved in it. You're in it.

I completely acknowledge that these phenomenon that people describe happen. I've seen it first hand. I've heard about it countless times from my friends. But I think it's important to also recognize that blind accusations also happen on both sides, where anything and everything that is inconvenient to a particular group is framed as, "Oh you hate me because I'm a Banite/ebilz/too-cool-to-be-in-your-group". It's almost an ex post facto argument where people say that when they couldn't achieve their desired results. "Oh it's because you're biased against me" "Oh because I'm evil" "Oh because I'm a Banite". Yes, sometimes that's the case. Sometimes it's not. Pointing fingers and crying about it? Usually only escalate the tension and hostility.

What are you trying to do here? You can't seriously antagonize people OOCly and go, "Please! Just give us a chance! We're good players OOC!" Further partisanship is not what we need on the server, just like metalien said. If you want people to not think of you negatively OOC, I strongly suggest reforming your behavior and attitudes in public places. You can't have it both ways. You can't be assholes and tell people that you're not an ass. Should it affect RP? No, I don't think it should. Does it? We all know that it does. Including some of these people who are yelling the loudest. The day people spend less time bitching about what other people did wrong and what they can do better, I think the better we will be as a community.

I have enjoyed RPing with many of you on evil side before and since I've been back. I don't want your RP to be ruined. I'm saying these things not to be mean to you, but because I genuinely want you guys to succeed. Just one fruit/vegetable's opinion.

Tomato. I know you are entitled to an opinion. . But can you cut down on the flamethrower?

It's only a slight bit off topic, but it's lovely seeing the banites back. I look forward to RPing with you.

It is conflict roleplay in general that needs to be worked on to improve it. The assumption I see most often is that it is evil factions who create conflict, and because that conflict often turns into ooc headaches, it is evil factions who are responsible for the ooc mess. I think that is a simplification that is bad to make. It takes not only evil working to gain power but good to fight that aspiration, and hence it is something that both sides are responsible for. Note that I primarily play a good character and never had a banite.

Conflict rp is very important. Without it people grow bored. DM events do not cover everything and can not give a steady form of conflict rp to the whole playerbase. Factions like the Triadic Knights very much depend on it, and hubs like Kohlingen in return depend on the Triadic Knights. (Yes, they have been merged now, but the point remains.) Even those who do not enjoy conflict rp have to realize that without it the server activity will not be as high, and that will result in non-conflict rp taking a dive as well. Most people make a paladin to fight evil, not to socialize all day.

So aspects like how to improve the problems that regularly result from pvp, from pvp taking place regularly in the same locations, from metagaming and perceived metagaming that results from intrique rp, and the lack of consequences that create repetition and exhasperation all need to be looked at. The conversation should also not revolve around what factions like the banites can do better, but also how the rest of the server can help.

Lead by example. What else is there to do?

Pony in my Kraut wrote:

It is conflict roleplay in general that needs to be worked on to improve it. The assumption I see most often is that it is evil factions who create conflict, and because that conflict often turns into ooc headaches, it is evil factions who are responsible for the ooc mess. I think that is a simplification that is bad to make. It takes not only evil working to gain power but good to fight that aspiration, and hence it is something that both sides are responsible for. Note that I primarily play a good character and never had a banite.

Conflict rp is very important. Without it people grow bored. DM events do not cover everything and can not give a steady form of conflict rp to the whole playerbase. Factions like the Triadic Knights very much depend on it, and hubs like Kohlingen in return depend on the Triadic Knights. (Yes, they have been merged now, but the point remains.) Even those who do not enjoy conflict rp have to realize that without it the server activity will not be as high, and that will result in non-conflict rp taking a dive as well. Most people make a paladin to fight evil, not to socialize all day.

So aspects like how to improve the problems that regularly result from pvp, from pvp taking place regularly in the same locations, from metagaming and perceived metagaming that results from intrique rp, and the lack of consequences that create repetition and exhasperation all need to be looked at. The conversation should also not revolve around what factions like the banites can do better, but also how the rest of the server can help.

I agree with Phearnun on this. That and I think many people fear PvP as a whole on this server. I think many people do not want to see there precious character who've they've leveled for hours apon hours and then once accomplished that went to undergo very intense and rewarding RP that gave there character a awesome image, and once there awesome character that everyone thought was all wise and powerful loses a fight, they become crushed and there pride destroyed. I"ve heard time and time again from many players that just don't want anything to do with PvP, or just out right are scared of it, and its really not something to be scared of. I"ve lost countless of times on both my mains Good and Evil. It's all part of the story making process and this goes for OOC shenanigans as well: Losing is just as rewarding as winning when it comes to enriching your characters story.

I'm also kinda disappointed on how often I"ve heard of people becoming upset and taking matters into OOC rage nonsense because side A lost to Side B, or someone was jumped by a group, or in very rare cases a single person takes out a group. (none of this is pointing out any specific event only examples of things that have occurred on both sides)

This is what I have to say about that, and it's something I learned a long time ago. RP= Rolling with the Punches. It's a game that you are involved in to not only entertain yourself but to be entertainers to others. If you honestly believe that every moment that your character is logged on will be a successful or winning experience you're going to be very disappointed because that is just not how things work anywhere. If you lose because your good Paladin or Evil blackguard was defeated by a group then RP with it. RP that it gave you a scar or when you where resurrected or interrogated (which more then likely happened) RP that you want revenge or something. Make things interesting for everyone and not just yourself. I mean if you want your character to not become involved with conflict; then feel free to hide behind city walls or avoid confrontations. That's fine, but I don't want to read any future posts about there is lack of evil. DMs can't be around 24-7. It's not possible, so its up to use as players to create our own Events in the mean time while they create one, and I said: If you want to wait inside Cordor/Wiltun/Bendir/etc for a DM event that your character can get involved in be my guest. If you don't like evil players, avoid them. If you don't like being beaten by do gooders, don't play evil. It's simple: But boring. In the end guys, this is just a game. No point at all to get emotional or spirited about something that means nothing in regards to life. We're all people behind these computers who have lives and families. I understand everyone wants a fair environment and for everything to work right and it in the future if you feel like you where wronged in a PvP conflict: There is steps to do without going OOC and ruining the moment.

1. Screenie everything
2. Contact a DM
3. Discuss with a DM

Or if you feel like I pesonally wronged you, feel free to send me a TELL or a PM on the forums. I know quite a few players who would agree with accepting TELLS or PM, and willing to discuss his or hers actions in regards to a RP. I think a person is just as wrong as the cheater when they spam messages with // on a server that involves acting for everyone to see. Most of use are adults on this server, so I don't believe this will be hard to do.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Lead by example. What else is there to do?

The most important step is to determine what the actual problems are and what people feel would be solutions to their own problems with the current system in an honest way. Perhaps the way to go about it is to create a questionaire that players can fill out and send to the DMs like when the team asked for feedback on the general state of the server.

It is important to hear from those who may not like to post in these topics, who might have good ideas drowned out by the louder crowd, who have a more difficult way to express them or who are embarrassed they have a hard time losing, even though they might have good ideas on how to improve that.

There would certainly need to be a series of considerations and adjustments.

Your words have some importance in them. One can always improve. Something is never finished, and we must always strive to evolve.

On the topic of improvements;
I, for once, want "Easier" PvP rules - there's about 10-15 of them now? How is the common player suppose to keep track of it.
Most of the "Ooc" arguments steam from different interpretations of said rules.

I want streamlined, easy to follow, rules that does not involve forum archeology to understand. This is my feedback to the discussion and i believe that it could probably solve PARTS of the ooc grief that ensures when players kill each other.

Dm yoss seem to frequent this thread. What is your opinion on the PvP rules?

On the topic of fear, how to really threaten a player and the impact of death
- ???????????????. I have no idea

If the OOC whinning is what ruins the RP experience, cut it (or) and ignore it.

I really grow tired of the boo boo ouchies whinning when one gets owned in PvP. Actions and consequences ; if you want to play a classical goody guy, you have to expect that sooner or later you will have to walk the walk and get dirty whilst fighting the evil forces. And vice versa - evil guys have to expect troubles the very moment others find out they are playing dirty. It's like number one in chapter called "Common Sense".

If you do not want to get involved in PvP, play that way. Don't be cheeky, don't play heroic. There is no shame in playing a "normal" person that is afraid of dying. In fact, it'll promote you to a higher level of RP in my eyes (like it means anything, right?)

Do realise that this bitching is what is driving the "evil" players away. And when these players leave, you can all strip naked and start dancing around trees with flowers in your hair. What fun.

Banites were fun to play with. I want to see them back, and I want to see them on the roads again. However, I fully understand the frustration that arise the very moment they cut down first whinny puss and the OOC crap starts whole over again.

Grow some balls or stay out of the road.

Mr. Hackums wrote:

A true Banite, at least in my interpretation, is a character that not only inspires fear in others, but understands that it is a boon to society.

This sums it up best, I think. I really enjoy this sentence alone.

Also, I feel that Bane is the only 4E god who's evolution makes sense to me. Granted, I haven't read all of them.

Very_Svensk wrote:

On the topic of improvements;
I, for once, want "Easier" PvP rules - there's about 10-15 of them now? How is the common player suppose to keep track of it.
Most of the "Ooc" arguments steam from different interpretations of said rules.

Yeah, I agree for the most part. Lots of rules means pvp becomes harder to deal with for everyone, and it's too bad. I understand that the rules have the intended purpose of making things fair, but it's sometimes hard to actually role-play as your character would when you know your character would do something immediately instead of wanting to talk to your enemy first everytime before starting the battle your character indends to fight. It seems almost like "Hey opponent, want to fight me today?" and the other character replies "Uh....not really. Maybe another time. Just gonna continue walking now." so you see, it makes little sense, but I understand that people will just cry if that wasn't the way it is. Death isn't so bad on this server, so I really don't understand why players here are so touchy when it comes to pvp.

Murex wrote:

I really don't understand why players here are so touchy when it comes to pvp.

Because they see the potentional death of their character as a failure, and failure is always hard to swallow.

So the answer to your question is the good ol' Pride. Nothing else. Which is making the whole situation even more sad.

Guardian wrote:

Murex wrote:

I really don't understand why players here are so touchy when it comes to pvp.

Because they see the potentional death of their character as a failure, and failure is always hard to swallow.

So the answer to your question is the good ol' Pride. Nothing else. Which is making the whole situation even more sad.

Yep, that's completely it.

Or, you know, there's people that just don't like PvP. Combined with those that have consistently been the victims of PvP rule-breaking. Leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Somewhat like Listerine mixed with roadkill mixed with Silent's mom.

Psff. My mother is delicious.

Silent2001 wrote:

Psff. My mother is delicious.

Seconded

Okay, well then players need to lighten up a bit, have some empathy, and be forgiving and considerate of players instead of screaming when something doesn't go their way. I personally have respect for my opponent after being defeated in pvp, and I applaud them OOC when the dust settles.

Sometimes the game mechanics doesn't jive with things like pvp- the hostiling thing is often difficult to enact, and when it occurs, players have a tendancy to immediately buff or charge when it's technically a form of metagaming- and it's hard to avoid. There are too many ways for things to not go smoothly in pvp, and perhaps that may be another reason why it is avoided by players.

Silent2001 wrote:

Psff. My mother is delicious.

OMG.....wtf?

Silent2001 wrote:

Psff. My mother is delicious.

I never said your mother tasted bad, did I?

Disclaimer: I haven't really kept up with this thread.

Now, my question to Banite players is: why -does- your character follow/serve Bane? Why exactly does your character think that by siding with a near universally loathed god, whose regional following has been crushed over and over again - and don't mistake this for some sort of accusation, but I doubt any character is blind or ignorant enough to altogether ignore common perceptions and past events - and believe they're going to come out on top?

Playing a member of a canon "heresy" (though technically, the more accurate term is apostasy) I can relate that characters can see things in their own way, but how did your character come to follow the god of "bringing order to the multiverse by squeezing the shit out of it"? Will accept PM's if you'd rather not state so publicly.

I ask because I can see a potential "hook" for a character to be/become a Banite, but I'd like to hear some other opinions first too.

Elorathall wrote:

Disclaimer: I haven't really kept up with this thread.

Now, my question to Banite players is: why -does- your character follow/serve Bane? Why exactly does your character think that by siding with a near universally loathed god, whose regional following has been crushed over and over again - and don't mistake this for some sort of accusation, but I doubt any character is blind or ignorant enough to altogether ignore common perceptions and past events - and believe they're going to come out on top?

Playing a member of a canon "heresy" (though technically, the more accurate term is apostasy) I can relate that characters can see things in their own way, but how did your character come to follow the god of "bringing order to the multiverse by squeezing the shit out of it"? Will accept PM's if you'd rather not state so publicly.

I ask because I can see a potential "hook" for a character to be/become a Banite, but I'd like to hear some other opinions first too.

Well I can answer your question simply by stating my Character's old views of it: He simply did not think it was evil, he thought he was doing a good thing. Tyranny was the thing that was necessary to keep order and balance. Fear was the fuel and understanding to keep things in line when Chaos came edging in. He believed people where born Chaotic and to clean or clear yourself of such filth you gave in to Bane and followed him without question. Of course there is other things that go with it, but I don't want to go into detail. Some Banites are Banites because they believe it is the right thing to do. Some actually believe what there doing is "good" and everyone else is actually evil.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Dm yoss seem to frequent this thread. What is your opinion on the PvP rules?

I've never liked them. Even as a player who never engaged in PvP (though I was happily engaged in it against my will, no sarcasm there!), it always felt awkward. We made some great improvements to it along the way to make it more sensible, but I still find it just too OOC and open to abuse.

Problem is, I've never really seen a better way to handle it that won't make my job as a DM harder. It is currently in a position where if you tug it one direction, you piss off these players, and if you tug it the other way, you piss off those players.

So I just wait for the day when maybe you all find a common ground on your own, one you'll all be satisfied with. The kinds of comments that fly around in this thread, for example, don't give me much in the way of hope.

And in the meantime I sit back in my plastic lawn chair and enjoy a wine cooler with your mother.

I'm with Yoss. And our observations generally degenerate from the Lawn chair to something like this.

PvP rules, to me, feel frustrating. I wish it were a simpler thing to correct.

Mr. Hackums wrote:

I'm with Yoss. And our observations generally degenerate from the Lawn chair to something like this.

PvP rules, to me, feel frustrating. I wish it were a simpler thing to correct.

PVP rules:
"You need a legitimate IC reason"

/fin

1) Define 'Legitimate'.

2) Deter those who decide that being Evil, and or a worshipper of Bane (or Cyric, or Bhaal) is a sufficient reason to engage in PvP.

Those're your big problems with that idea Palin.

I also want to be careful with bringing on this particular subject inside this thread, for a couple of reasons. One, I want to avoid getting into a heated debate on PvP rules while inside a thread regarding a faction that has had a colorful history on the subject. When the hope is moving forward, no?

I think it'd do us all well to, if it was wished, move the discussion elsewhere.

PvP isn't bad, their colorful history with PvP means nothing unless you have something against PvP

Last edited by RaveN on Tue, Mar 26 2013, 4:36 AM, edited 2 times in total.

I will say that though I do not know the solution to the problem as a whole, there is definitely a major kneejerk awkward moment that sometimes lasts so long it disrupts any reasonable roleplay. No character should have to repeat that they're going to kill you, until you finally decide whether or not you should take an OOC out. I won't really call it an IC out, because it's not one.

My only solution is to make PvP meaningful by adding death penalties, that way it happens less, and hopefully with greater conviction and purpose, and less bitching, since people assumed and knew the risks before getting pointlessly and carelessly involved.

Well, if you tell them to do x or they die and you have to repeat yourself... I say they should then die :twisted:

Not your fault they didn't take the out (unless they want to try to negotiate through nifty RP, then that should be fun for both! But they might still die XD)

Naivatkal wrote:

Well, if you tell them to do x or they die and you have to repeat yourself... I say they should then die :twisted:

Not your fault they didn't take the out (unless they want to try to negotiate through nifty RP, then that should be fun for both! But they might still die XD)

It's really not fun when they send you walls of OOC. I'm sure a lot of players know exactly what I'm talking about.

Grymia wrote:

1) Define 'Legitimate'.

2) Deter those who decide that being Evil, and or a worshipper of Bane (or Cyric, or Bhaal) is a sufficient reason to engage in PvP.

Those're your big problems with that idea Palin.

3) Deter those who decide that being Good, and or a worshipper of Tyr (Or Eilistraee, or Corellon) is a sufficient reason to engage in PvP.

4) Deter those who decide that being Neutral, and or a worshipper of Tempus (Or Helm, or Kelemvor) is a sufficient reason to engage in PvP.

Notion that evil characters start shit is stupid. I've seen this happen twice in the past month:
>Banite walks by
>Tempus-guy: "Banites are cowards. I will defeat you."
>Banite: Uh-
>TG: "Done talking, fight"
>Banite kills TG
>TG: "//FUcking banites are powerbuilders"
>Everyone else: "Hey, wtf Banite, get out of here and stop pvping."

In my opinion, it should be free-mans land to fight, rob and whatever else outside of city gates. If you don't want to risk it, use a boat/node or stay inside. I'd keep the rule that says you can't steal dungeons in progress though.

That's gross, then. It's a simple OOC question. That's just uncalled for :/

Course, you could always take it IC and have your char give them to the count of three and start counting it out :mrgreen:

Then there really is no excuse and them delaying OOC screws themselves over.

I can't reiterate enough that if people took the whole dying process a little more seriously, they might take their IC outs when they're supposed to.

Needled247 wrote:

I can't reiterate enough that if people took the whole dying process a little more seriously, they might take their IC outs when they're supposed to.

With the current penalties to death and the ease to get the XP and gold back after death, the current death system needs self motivation to be taken seriously. Whoever doesnt feel motivated to play death as serious business will keep underplaying it. And since the ingame system works as such, they are in their right, unless stated otherwise IMHO.

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