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TormakSaber wrote:

If only enemies take the -2 penalty then it's safe to say only enemies feel any other effects as well.

(imo)

I agree. That is consistent with how every other negative effect aura/AoE in the game works. Curse Song doesn't make allies feel down either, any more than Bard's Song buffs enemies. And it's not really an aura of "oh boy this dude looks nasty", something like that doesn't affect your ability to resist poisons. It's clearly a supernatural effect the BG has some control of. People don't need another excuse to metagame class/alignment without effort.

IMO AoD works in two ways. One is the immanent feeling for everyone in the near proximity that something is creepy, and the other one is that those who would actually do harm to the Blackguard are consumed by the said feeling, receiving the negative effects.

d20 SRD:

Quote:

Beginning at 3rd level, the blackguard radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet of him to take a -2 penalty on all saving throws.

It doesn't explicitly (or even indirectly, IMO) say anything about bad feelings or effect on non-enemies. If you want to, you can reasonably say others feel umcomfortable around you. But the ability doesn't require that, so it should be up to individual players to interpret the fluff. A Blackguard of Mask, Gargauth or some other secretive master who wants you to infiltrate society wouldn't want to radiate an aura of unpleasantness, and there's no reason to assume they would.

Assuming you go with a Faustian pact interpretation of BG, it's actually rather fitting that a Blackguard ask for charisma, beauty and fame in return for his soul. In fact, they have Eagle's Splendor in their PnP spell list. Much moreso than Pale Masters, it's very possible that Blackguards keep their pact a secret from their closest friends. There are several canon Blackguard NPCs serving in holy orders and other positions, hiding their fall from their comrades. That wouldn't be possible if everyone felt an awful sense of despair whenever they saw one.

I guess you are right on this one then.

Dead wrote:

I guess you are right on this one then.

+1

I rather prefer letting the palemaster choose how obvious they'll be, with mechanical benefits and detriments to go with that. After all, in all forms doesn't the palemaster control just how far they go? I really see no reason why a palemaster should be forced to take a bone graft or do much of anything visual (I do not play nor have ever played a palemaster, by the way), but those that don't obviously miss out on the class's full potential.

Don't want a bone arm? Nix it, and you're harder to detect but you lose the arm ability. Don't want bone skin? Scrap it, but now you lose some of your AC without the feat. And so on.

Make it a modular class where you can add or subtract a number of bits to really customize the class to fit how you want to play and RP it. If you want to walk around going "AMG I AM T3H UNDEAD KING" and looking like a skeleton with every palemaster power you can jam in, fantastic. You're not trying to hide it, all works out. But if you want to be a melee palemaster who's just necrotizing his organs to prevent critical hits, you may choose to forego some of the class perks and be fairly hard to detect. Keep in mind that losing Bone Skin and Tough as Bone (part and parcel with Bone Skin imo) among other sundries for the sake of hiding the pale mastery will really kneecap a melee build and help provide a wide array of choices for detection vs. strength.

I'd even advocate slotting in a few more choices- such as grafts geared towards melee or spellcasting (or even stealth, think about that one!), but each one carries a significant likelihood of detection. It could really be an opportunity to expand the class into something much more than it is now. One of the neatest ideas (from Cadence, by the way) was definitely the ability to be healed by negative energy. Having this as a replacement (or even additive) bonus could be quite interesting. NC's ideas also show a lot of merit.

Customizability is usually better, and here I think it would definitely enhance and broaden the appeal and use for the class.

The issue is the mechanics of that.

Eurgiga wrote:

I rather prefer letting the palemaster choose how obvious they'll be, with mechanical benefits and detriments to go with that. After all, in all forms doesn't the palemaster control just how far they go? I really see no reason why a palemaster should be forced to take a bone graft or do much of anything visual (I do not play nor have ever played a palemaster, by the way), but those that don't obviously miss out on the class's full potential.

Don't want a bone arm? Nix it, and you're harder to detect but you lose the arm ability. Don't want bone skin? Scrap it, but now you lose some of your AC without the feat. And so on.

Because Libris Mortis says that they do, and so they do. This is one of the rare explicit cannon facts on the Palemasters.

Dead wrote:

Because Libris Mortis says that they do, and so they do. This is one of the rare explicit cannon facts on the Palemasters.

True, but... so what? The class makes the arm mandatory without ever offering any justification for the mandate. Why should a PM *have* to take on a bone arm? No ability that comes before it is described as leading up to it, and no ability that comes after it is described as being based on it. As long as we're in the mode of creating new lore here anyways, why not create lore that's both internally consistent and supportive of fun IC options?

Because it is cannon lore and it should be done, and also because

Yossarin wrote:

The bone arm wont' be changing, no.

So I am failing to see the point of this argument.

So if in-game you ask a PM why they have a bone arm, their answer is going to be "because it's canon lore"? I don't think so. What the real question seems to be is why, in character, every PM decides on that particular graft. You could argue that taking the class is taking the graft, like how an assassin gets death attack. But it's not really the same - you can graft yourself or pursue an obsession with undeath in different ways, just as being an assassin doesn't necessarily entail using your death attack technique. Probably the best argument is "This is an esoteric field and in order to achieve your goal you pretty much have to follow the recipe books laid down by your forerunners unless you want to risk splinching all your gibblies". So to that end, getting a bone arm is like getting your PM training wheels (or the unnecessary step in an old recipe), but it's still not a concrete "can't be done" reason.

The mechanics and balance of a modular PM class sound like a godawful pain yes, since the class is already hardcore in PvP (if a bit lacking in PvM). That's a very valid reason against it. But there's nothing inherently wrong with the concept behind it. It's definitely more compelling than "all PMs get bone arms just 'cos".

Can we roll out some Palemangler, Paledabbler and Paledazzler prestige classes? I have a feeling that's where this would be headed.

Guys, pale masters have a bone arm because that's what the ritual (read: prestige class) promises. It's the tried and tested path, the one that guarantees results. Then you get crazypants like Lucius who decide they want "bone everything" who bust out the turntable and get freaky off of that.

@Serbiris

Which part of

Yossarin wrote:

The bone arm wont' be changing, no.

you don't understand?

This thread.

I understood it perfectly. But the points raised are still valid, though I'm more or less of CoA's opinion (if only because the situation can't really be helped). Since we're not derailing any particularly relevant other discussions here at this point, short of DM word/lock I don't see an issue with continuing to discuss this. Being able to ICly explain as a PM why we're basically forced into taking a specific graft is nice and definitely relevant to y'know, roleplaying the damn class, because IC we can never answer "because the mechanics of the game say so".

Dead wrote:

Because it is cannon lore and it should be done, and also because

Yossarin wrote:

The bone arm wont' be changing, no.

So I am failing to see the point of this argument.

"Because it is so written" does not make it:

1. Unchangeable
2. Right

But then again, I don't play Paladin, Cleric, CoT, Palemaster, RDD, etc all for the same reason: They all have some sort of arbitrary RP reasoning where a DM can come in and 'interpret it' in a way that has definite IC consequences regardless of my input, effort, or actions. As a logical extension then, I prefer hard and written rules. The catch, of course, is that those rules need to be comprehensive and well thought out.

Here is the rule from the sourcebook:

Quote:

Undead Graft (Su): At 6th level, a pale master gives in to terrible necrophiliac urges. He cuts off his arm and replaces it with an undead prosthetic, which may be skeletal in form or preserved fl esh stitched in place like that of a fl esh golem. Regardless of its composition, the graft grants a +4 inherent bonus to the character's Strength score.

Here's some sourcebook material we explicitly DO NOT follow:

Quote:

If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Quote:

Dragon Apotheosis: At 10th level, a dragon disciple fully realizes his draconic heritage and takes on the half-dragon template (see page 146 of the Monster Manual). His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon (see above).

As such, we have established beyond any reasonable question that it is the policy and practice of this server to change PnP rules when they aren't agreed with by those making such decisions (edit: Before you nitpick this sentence in a response, please ask yourself if your comment invalidates the sentence). Hence, I fail to see why you think the discussion is entirely moot.

So will be getting changed and what won't be? Also dead teach me how to be a PM please. <3

Eurgiga wrote:

Dead wrote:

Because it is cannon lore and it should be done, and also because

Yossarin wrote:

The bone arm wont' be changing, no.

So I am failing to see the point of this argument.

"Because it is so written" does not make it:

1. Unchangeable
2. Right

But then again, I don't play Paladin, Cleric, CoT, Palemaster, RDD, etc all for the same reason: They all have some sort of arbitrary RP reasoning where a DM can come in and 'interpret it' in a way that has definite IC consequences regardless of my input, effort, or actions. As a logical extension then, I prefer hard and written rules. The catch, of course, is that those rules need to be comprehensive and well thought out.

Here is the rule from the sourcebook:

Quote:

Undead Graft (Su): At 6th level, a pale master gives in to terrible necrophiliac urges. He cuts off his arm and replaces it with an undead prosthetic, which may be skeletal in form or preserved fl esh stitched in place like that of a fl esh golem. Regardless of its composition, the graft grants a +4 inherent bonus to the character's Strength score.

Here's some sourcebook material we explicitly DO NOT follow:

Quote:

If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Quote:

Dragon Apotheosis: At 10th level, a dragon disciple fully realizes his draconic heritage and takes on the half-dragon template (see page 146 of the Monster Manual). His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon (see above).

As such, we have established beyond any reasonable question that it is the policy and practice of this server to change PnP rules when they aren't agreed with by those making such decisions (edit: Before you nitpick this sentence in a response, please ask yourself if your comment invalidates the sentence). Hence, I fail to see why you think the discussion is entirely moot.

The discussion is moot because the DMs said the arm's not changing..

End.

Not precisely. Yoss said the arm isn't changing, but what's being discussed isn't changing the arm. The discussion is, leave the arm how it is, but give other options as well. That discussion is still valkd and useful.

Liz wrote:

Why should a PM *have* to take on a bone arm?

serbiris wrote:

What the real question seems to be is why, in character, every PM decides on that particular graft.

Eurgiga wrote:

I really see no reason why a palemaster should be forced to take a bone graft

Correct me if I am wrong but those stands in the opposition to

Liz wrote:

Yoss said the arm isn't changing, but what's being discussed isn't changing the arm.

* * *

If you guys want to learn anything on the Palemasters as IC knowledge, as why is something being done and so on, as always, hop on IG and find out. Otherwise, for OOC questions why bone arm, refer to Yoss' and Tormak's post.

@Liz other options were discussed and new grafts were suggested. So if you want to keep the thread useful and valid, focus on that, rather than trying to poke a hole in the boat by focusing on the already existing graft that is not going to be changed. After all, nobody is stopping any Palemaster from grafting the other arm as well.

This isn't just a "find out IG" thing because as long as it's possible to level a PM without finding out IG, it should be knowledge that's readily available to a PM. Unless you're suggesting that no one can take that many levels in the class until they talk to a very specific few people, and that's just absurd. If a PM gets the graft, a PM should know WHY they're getting a graft. Otherwise, the PM shouldn't get the graft upon taking the level. And since that won't happen, that's why the question is relevant. And it has been responded to reasonably, thank you CoA.

Only because you do not know, does not mean that a Palemaster does not know. Every Palemaster worthy of his salt does.

Well if the PM's know, then we who play the PMs should know why they do it as well. Otherwise how are we supposed to roleplay them? Sure, we can make up excuses to suit our individual characters, but an authoritative, lore-consistent reason given to us here doesn't seem like too much to ask. Even if the answer is just "mechanics, so figure out your own way to deal" - which would at least definitively state that no such concrete lore reason exists.

That would certainly help. As I have been interested in wanting to make a palemaster but I do not how to go about doing so Icly and oocly, as I lack knowledge on both ends and have no idea how to pull it off. In addition to serbris' point for others too.

But seriously, teach me pls. <3

serbiris wrote:

Well if the PM's know, then we who play the PMs should know why they do it as well.

This is an obvious implication. If your Palemaster knows why, then you know why as you are the meta-sentience behind your characters. However as the said knowledge is strictly IC, seek it IG.

Strawberry Stallion wrote:

That would certainly help. As I have been interested in wanting to make a palemaster but I do not how to go about doing so Icly and oocly, as I lack knowledge on both ends and have no idea how to pull it off. In addition to serbris' point for others too.

But seriously, teach me pls. <3

The absolutely best way to do this is to make a character and meet the requirements for Palemaster PrC, then come to Tarkuul and ask about who might be able to help you. You can RP all the rituals as your levels come, or as a lesser alternative you can level your character but RP that the features are not there until you RP the rituals.

OOC you should probably read Libris Mortis, or IC at least some of these IC books.

Eurgiga wrote:

Quote:

If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

I'm confused, it is my understanding in FR you cannot be a cleric without follow a deity, unlike core DnD. How is this relevant?

Eurgiga wrote:

Quote:

Dragon Apotheosis: At 10th level, a dragon disciple fully realizes his draconic heritage and takes on the half-dragon template (see page 146 of the Monster Manual). His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon (see above).

And I'm just going to throw out ... balance?

...Oh yeah, I wondered about that point. Yes, there is specific FR lore which says in FR, that PHB rule on deities/domains does not apply. It's not an Amia ruling.

Naiv, on Dragon Disciple Mechanics here on Amia:Read Here.

'Balance' is not thrown out by it.

He was pointing out that Eurgiga's argument was silly because the sourcebook material has not been deviated from, but rather scaled back for the sake of making it fit into a level 30 server setting.

Bini wrote:

He was pointing out that Eurgiga's argument was silly because the sourcebook material has not been deviated from, but rather scaled back for the sake of making it fit into a level 30 server setting.

And +8 STR is wtfpwnsauce lol
I imagine that's why bone arm's didn't give +4 STR in default NWN as well.

Dead wrote:

serbiris wrote:

Well if the PM's know, then we who play the PMs should know why they do it as well.

This is an obvious implication. If your Palemaster knows why, then you know why as you are the meta-sentience behind your characters. However as the said knowledge is strictly IC, seek it IG.

Strawberry Stallion wrote:

That would certainly help. As I have been interested in wanting to make a palemaster but I do not how to go about doing so Icly and oocly, as I lack knowledge on both ends and have no idea how to pull it off. In addition to serbris' point for others too.

But seriously, teach me pls. <3

The absolutely best way to do this is to make a character and meet the requirements for Palemaster PrC, then come to Tarkuul and ask about who might be able to help you. You can RP all the rituals as your levels come, or as a lesser alternative you can level your character but RP that the features are not there until you RP the rituals.

OOC you should probably read Libris Mortis, or IC at least some of these IC books.

The requirements being simply to have three levels in an arcane caster class? I suspect Wizard would be the ideal candidate since I think the palemaster levels give spell slots and let Wizards learn higher level spells? Anything else I need to take note of? Need I take any low or higher physical stats to help portray the turning to deathlessness and eventual lack of an arm complex in my ability scores and thus RP, or anything else I need be aware of before hand? Is it always the left arm or can I choose to have it on the right instead? Does it give a choice? If not, why not? Can it be set so you choose which arm you want to be amputated/grafted?

That depends on your character concept, and it's purely build wise. It does not have to be a left arm, but I am not sure if this can be LETO'd or not.

Can't it be done so that when you take the # level that gives the arm, you get a bonus feat that is essentially enabling you which arm it will be grafted to? Left, Right or perhaps even both? If that's even possible. And I was curious what is the norm so I don't end up making an even more outlandish character than Amia is used to by now.

This is a remarkably silly internet argument to be having in the middle of a thread. As such, it has been shrunk so you can read it if you really really feel like arguing, but otherwise we should probably drop it. Read on past it if you would rather get back to the point. Imma go bump that spoilertext thing in the suggestions section.

[stupidargument]

Bini wrote:

He was pointing out that Eurgiga's argument was silly because the sourcebook material has not been deviated from, but rather scaled back for the sake of making it fit into a level 30 server setting.

So differing from a thing is not deviating from it now? My point was that sourcebook material has not been strictly followed, gave clear examples, and hoped for something other than the incessant hair-splitting the Internet is great at. My example was as on-point as it could be.

I'm not really sure why I'm getting involved in a thread that won't affect me other than I enjoy playing Devil's Advocate and making sure the opposition has a full argument presented.

Dead wrote:

If you guys want to learn anything on the Palemasters as IC knowledge, as why is something being done and so on, as always, hop on IG and find out. Otherwise, for OOC questions why bone arm, refer to Yoss' and Tormak's post.

I'd be happy to learn IC. As to the OOC reasons, I do not care if a DM has said it's not changing. I will still present the argument in full to ensure the argument is hashed out as fully as possible so it won't be stupidly revisited down the line. I don't necessarily have a personal stake, but I also understand that the argument nor the community is done service by short-selling the discussion. Any attempts to stem it before the majority of relevant points and counterpoints can be discussed is not only counterproductive in the long run but harmful and terribly shortsighted. I would not play on a server where I thought the staff were deaf to concerns about a ruling, though you two seem pretty dead-set on viewing it that way.

Incidentally, the arm is still secondary to the ability to cover it up and overall visibility of the palemaster, which no-one has said is not changing (that's the point of the thread, in fact). As I believe the bone arm itself has had all its points covered, I'm happy to drop it and move on.
[/stupidargument]

Back on point, arm or no we're going on about the concealability of the class. Generally speaking, I highly prefer rulings that support the ability of a DM to just look at the player and go "Yeah, okay, that's fine". It cuts down on a lot of DM headache, though perhaps not on frustration. Clanking around in the sleeve could easily be resolved with a towel and some rope. However, apparently the most convenient form of that (the present one) is making people antsy.

I quite like the present stance myself- it's a lot of fun ferreting out pale masters when it's hard to do. If you go easymode it that's just going to handicap their RP and little else- if a Palemaster is trying to pass in polite society I am inclined to believe that they have chosen to minimize the appearance of their grafts. This, of course, appears to be the point of the thread- just how minimal can those grafts be, and what are the consequences?

What I'm seeing at the moment is:
1. Bone arm must be there.
2. Other stuff may or may not be there depending on the discussion.

Hence why I advocate a system where players may make themselves non-obvious like now and keep those RP options open for them. Forcing them to walk around with a big neon sign going "I AM A PALEMASTER" no matter what is honestly just kind of a douche thing to do. So as long as any variant system keeps the full range of RP options open, even if it adds some mechanical 'quirkiness', I think everyone will generally be happy aside from the munchkins (and nobody cares what the munchkins think anyway).

Props to Yoss for posting the discussion for players, it's been very productive.

Eurgiga wrote:

1. Bone arm must be there.

By default yes. It is an essential, if not crucial part of the PrC. It is the PrC's signature, its trademark. But as I was saying earlier in this thread if you can graft a bone arm, you can graft pretty much anything with enough knowledge, great RP and above anything else DM permission. I believe that if a Palemaster wanted to graft the flesh upon his undead arm, he could if he knew how. But that is an extreme case, highly unlikely to ever happen, and if I was a DM, a person who wanted to do this would have to knock me off my feet with the reasoning and RP behind the request. I want to get married, I want to infiltrate insert-random-goodly-faction or I do not want to look as freakish wouldn't fly.

Of course, I am not setting a precedent here. I am merely expressing my opinion.

Dead wrote:

Eurgiga wrote:

1. Bone arm must be there.

By default yes. It is an essential, if not crucial part of the PrC. It is the PrC's signature, its trademark. But as I was saying earlier in this thread if you can graft a bone arm, you can graft pretty much anything with enough knowledge, great RP and above anything else DM permission. I believe that if a Palemaster wanted to graft the flesh upon his undead arm, he could if he knew how. But that is an extreme case, highly unlikely to ever happen, and if I was a DM, a person who wanted to do this would have to knock me off my feet with the reasoning and RP behind the request. I want to get married, I want to infiltrate insert-random-goodly-faction or I do not want to look as freakish wouldn't fly.

Of course, I am not setting a precedent here. I am merely expressing my opinion.

I agree with absolutely everything said here.

Just gonna throw my two cents in on a dead horse.

Pale Master abilities to my knowledge or as I percive them.

Bone Skin: This in itself sounds like a pale mastery graft. Bone Skin. Your skin is calcified in a manner similar to bone, drink your milk boys!

Dark Vision: Now, this can be entirely subjective. But I have personally been there to watch at least one Pale Master ritual where a person received this power IC. He ritualistically tore out his own eye and stuck the new undead one in. And I do know of a few others like that. While I suppose that might not be the mandate for all of you, it should certainly be taken into consideration if you're playing a PM. Your eyes might be vastly different from a normal living person.

Undead Graft: Holy crap! I have a bone arm! No need to detail this one.

Tough as Bone: The Pale Master continues to go further down his path toward being a filthy undead heathen. He gains undead immunities which I would imagine stem from being rather similar to undead.

Deathless Mastery: Immune to Crits. That should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever come without significant change to anyone ever. Being a Pale Master has a huge cost, and this would probably have the highest one in my opinion. You become immune to critical hits by taking on the powers and likeness of an undead creature.

Honestly, I do picture a Pale Master smelling like rotting flesh and formaldehyde. You aren't just another fighter or another Wizard if you make it that far. You're someone who's taken toward emulation of undead. You are barely recognizable as a member of your own species, let alone your self. Hiding it should be next to impossible. I don't care if we change the class or not so long as people bare this in mind when they role play.

Anyway, I'm done rambling. I just saw this thread and got started. Pardon the thread necro, but it's appropriate for the topic

Terra_777 wrote:

Becoming a PM is a huge feat and as such wouldnt a PM take pride in what they've succeeded in doing? Other then that, I can see why the intelligent PM would want to hide their PMish features in some if not most situations to avoid the touch-mob effect.

There are functions to check if an arm is covered with scripts, thus its possible to apply penalties if the bone arm is covered. Its even possible to make PMs unable to use their PM abilities when their arm is covered.

The only conceivable reason I would see to hide it is so that Jimmy doesn't tell his buddy Tommy who tells his girlfriend Jane that Bobby Joe is in fact a necromancer, and should be PvP'd in a relentless, but sad and hilarious manner.

I love the idea for disabling pale arm when it's hidden, it only makes sense.

However I still can't stomach the side effects of forcing PMs to be public. The class is any non-good, but in practice if a mob of players finds out you're a palemaster it's not long before you see them finding you in zones looking for a reason to PvP you and when/if you fight back it will only further add to the problem by validating their claims of you being a BAD DOOD.

I've seen this in person and watched other people experience the same progression, it starts with one person and it turns into a swarm of people and ultimately you end up getting banned from everywhere because of the way information/metagame progression works in Amia.

And right now we are discussing the fact that ALL PMs will be forced into these witch hunt style roleplays.

But it's still kind of strange how you can be standing right next to someone with severely altered organ function and as long as they're wearing long sleeves and gloves you'd have no idea.

But um... what? Okay, I get that not everyone likes that witch hunt stuff but... it kind of comes with the territory of turning yourself into a semi-undead monstrosity? Were you expecting to star in a romantic comedy? Even the most socially-inclined PM has to be a bit of an outcast for wanting to do that to themselves. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to hide it at all (well I am, but it's not my point here) but why would you play an outcast if you don't want to be outcast?

If it's a problem with the server not treating outcasts the way you would want them to be treated well uh.

That is a fair analysis serb. I still dnt like where this path leads. Pvp is messy and the enforcement of its rules are too shaky for me to accept being forced into it.

Palin489 wrote:

However I still can't stomach the side effects of forcing PMs to be public. The class is any non-good, but in practice if a mob of players finds out you're a palemaster it's not long before you see them finding you in zones looking for a reason to PvP you and when/if you fight back it will only further add to the problem by validating their claims of you being a BAD DOOD.

I've seen this in person and watched other people experience the same progression, it starts with one person and it turns into a swarm of people and ultimately you end up getting banned from everywhere because of the way information/metagame progression works in Amia.

And right now we are discussing the fact that ALL PMs will be forced into these witch hunt style roleplays.

Yup and PM's make that choice so I'm not seeing the problem.

I think as a group Aimains are pretty good at /not/ metagaming. When you make an evil Lolthite drow or PM or dragonkin you have to be aware that /eventually/ you will be found out. That word of mouth ICly will get around and yes you will be hunted. My Kiaransalee Aly’isgar was found out and I had to alter her travel and make “other” arrangements. If I took her through Amia forest I shouldn’t have been surprised that the elves patrolling there stopped her, demanded the hood off, recognized her and… invis + run or PVP. If I didn’t feel like PVP that day, Aly’isgar stayed the hell out of Amia forest. It’s the price you pay for the fun of playing that character.

And don’t feel singled out. Certain evil groups have been known to hunt goodly folk and hang them, pike them etc.

serbiris wrote:

But it's still kind of strange how you can be standing right next to someone with severely altered organ function and as long as they're wearing long sleeves and gloves you'd have no idea.

But um... what? Okay, I get that not everyone likes that witch hunt stuff but... it kind of comes with the territory of turning yourself into a semi-undead monstrosity? Were you expecting to star in a romantic comedy? Even the most socially-inclined PM has to be a bit of an outcast for wanting to do that to themselves. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to hide it at all (well I am, but it's not my point here) but why would you play an outcast if you don't want to be outcast?

If it's a problem with the server not treating outcasts the way you would want them to be treated well uh.

It's not that nobody wants to be an outcast. It's just that people want to actually have access to places, role-play and people they probably met along the way to becoming a palemaster. I'm all for consequences for actions, but nobody wants to be the guy that gets burned, hung, mutilated and lynched every time they actually have the gall to roleplay with people outside the rather strange and dark path of palemastery.

But that's exactly what being an outcast is. That you can't just freely hang out with your old friends at the old places because you willfully altered yourself into a state which encourages others to cast you out. I can sympathise with a character wanting to - no one has infallible judgement after all - but they'll have to work through the obstacles, and that means the obstacles have to be present and that you might not be able to overcome them. That it shouldn't be as easy as wearing long sleeves/gloves. If you as a player really don't want to deal with these obstacles, play another class/concept. You're not really forced into being an outcast because you're never being forced into taking PM levels. Or if you are for artistic reasons... just gotta play it as it lies.

I don't want to derail the thread too much but I agree with serbs. Being a palemaster/DD and things like that is a choice. If you want to have broader range of freedom, you probably shouldn't pick something that makes people go "Ew."

I joined the server as my first chara being a drow on the surface years ago when it was a bit more difficult than it is now. xD I was most definitely an outcast in every sense of the word. I couldn't go to the major cities or the popular RP spots (not Bendir, not Cordor, not Kohlingen, and anywhere near Winya got harassed/killed, was also banned from the forest by Crow and co.). But it was fun! I don't think I would have gotten involved with all the things I did with Rhyl with the Triumvir had it not been for being a total outcast. Even though I can relate to how sucky it is when everything on the planet seems to be closed off to you, it can open up new opportunities because other options weren't available.

I don't think the Pale Master needs to be changed. It's fine as it is.

Tomato Sword wrote:

I don't want to derail the thread too much but I agree with serbs. Being a palemaster/DD and things like that is a choice. If you want to have broader range of freedom, you probably shouldn't pick something that makes people go "Ew."

I joined the server as my first chara being a drow on the surface years ago when it was a bit more difficult than it is now. xD I was most definitely an outcast in every sense of the word. I couldn't go to the major cities or the popular RP spots (not Bendir, not Cordor, not Kohlingen, and anywhere near Winya got harassed/killed, was also banned from the forest by Crow and co.). But it was fun! I don't think I would have gotten involved with all the things I did with Rhyl with the Triumvir had it not been for being a total outcast. Even though I can relate to how sucky it is when everything on the planet seems to be closed off to you, it can open up new opportunities because other options weren't available.

I agree with Serbs too. Lolthite drow run into the same issues. So when I had a priestess she just didn't go to Bendir, Cordor, Kohlingen, Winya, Amia Forest, as a matter of fact she knew all the ways to get everywhere from underground. And she had folks to RP with brought to her, heh.

I agree with Tomato too. THink of the places that are off the beaten (pun intended) path. There are interesting folks there. Oh! Hire mercernaries to guard you as you travel.

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