AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

An occurance that I've found to be increasing recently is that people have been making characters with incredibly low stats (of 6, and in some rare cases, of 4) most often in the abilities of Charisma and Wisdom, and then not roleplaying their stats at all. The most overwhelmingly common offender of this is the Earth Genasi subrace, but I've noted it to be occuring in Svirfneblins, Air Genasi and others.

When you choose your stats on Amia, you're expected to be making that decision with the RP of your character in mind. As such, those stats must be chosen for a good reason, and you must roleplay them accurately and appropriately. If your character has 6 Charisma, you need to keep that in mind when you're RPing. Stats aren't just there to provide mechanical advantages and disadvantages. They're an integral part of your character and need to be represented in your RP just as much as your race, class, skills, ect.

A dump stat is an acceptable thing to have, but it needs to be RPed.

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For reference, these are the descriptions for the Ability Scores as provided by NWN:

- Strength measures the muscle and physical power of a character.

- Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.

- Constitution represents the health and stamina of a character.

- Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition.

- Intelligence determines how well a character learns and reasons. It also represents the ability to analyze information. (Note that an intelligence of 8 or below means that your character is unable to speak correctly)

- Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. It represents actual personal strength, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

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Please consider this and ensure that your RP is properly reflecting the stats of your characters.

Mind that, say, an Earth Genasi gets -2 Charisma by virtue of being a freak. They can be an otherwise average, likeable person with 8 Charisma. Thus 6 Charisma doesn't have to make them dramatically disgusting; it's just 2 points below the racial average, and no different from 8 for some other race.

I agree with the general sentiment, of course. But abilities are incredibly ambiguous and we all get unnaturally good genes by virtue of being adventurers (a commoner NPC wouldn't have that many points to spend at creation), so finding the right way to represent them in RP is about as definitive as picking your favorite food. There's also a lot of overlap and compensation in the mental department, where you can gain friends and respect simply by being well-spoken (Int/Wis rather than Cha) or compensate for a lack of mathematical and problem-solving prowess with your insight and perception (Wis rather than Int making you an accomplished scholar). Your ability scores "should" (insofar as there are any shoulds in creative RP) show somehow, but the how of it is debatable. I tend to give others the benefit of the doubt and assume they've thought about it and represent it in a legitimate way I wouldn't have thought of.

I tend to make my "dump stats" the physical ones (Str, Con) for this very reason. It doesn't take a lot of deep RP to portray a Con of 6. Avoid manual labor, and occasionally make reference in descriptions and emotes to your character's slenderness or even fragility, and then if she actually gets in a fight, two or three hits and the game's mechanics RP her dump stat for you: she goes down like a sack of potatoes. (I imagine there might be a susceptibility to mundane sicknesses, if my characters weren't clerics.)

Whether or not I agree aside, is this a policy of the DM team now, or something you'd like to curb by drawing attention to? If the former, I'd like to ask why it is being posted now, when the server remains a more casual roleplaying server in most respects.

Because of this, character optimization has always been a relatively hot topic for many and most of the time, people opt to do so and build to create a character that's going to represent their character's vocation and capabilities, while remaining viable in PvM and PvP. While this and the accurate representation of the character's attributes in mechanical attributes often match up, sometimes they don't (see dragon-shifter). On the other hand, there's non-optimized building, usually undertaken as one plays where the player will pick and choose feats as they fit to individual aspects of the character (for instance taking dirty fighting as the character is a brawler). This more dynamic means of building has gradually become less popular on Amia as the playerbase has become more and more aware of mechanics. Different players have different priorities, and they will build as they see fit, but this as a policy seems to put certain builds at a 'roleplay' deficit when it comes to achieving those expensive epic feats which will presumably help them to represent the scope of their character's ability.

To illustrate this, you ain't never seen someone with epic dodge and 16 charisma or wisdom, yet in many, many circumstances, these characters are both highly adept at both reading social situations and responding to them, as they are of course the Bondesque-spy that everyone wants to play.

The second issue I have with this as a policy is as it is redundant. Abilities, even when not central to the character, will have a strong impact on the character's overall statistics (and thereby their effective prowess in any given situation that demands a certain statistic) simply by the virtue of how d&d has been set up. A character with a lower strength score will become encumbered more often and will be seen donning a fullplate and tower shield less often than a higher strength score character. A character with lower wisdom will be less perceptive and will have a lower will save, as well as a lower counter-intimidate, spot, and listen. A stupid character simply won't have much of a compliment of skills at all and that is always apparent because they'll be asking for tinkerers and armor-smiths to aid them with their requests. In short, any dumped ability will be prevalent enough already by virtue of the game for any character to disregard it in their roleplay.

So yeah, while I can see why one would make mention of this, as godmodding is something everyone wants to curb, focusing and taking a policy on this occurrence in particular runs contrary to the general attitude of Amia as a more casual server.

This is something I'm looking to curb by drawing attention to it. I would've expected it to be common sense that, if your character has 6 wisdom because you wanted to dump it to stack 20 Strength and 16 Constitution, your character is not going to be very insightful at all, and if you dropped your charisma to 6, their personality will be equally poor. Your point seems based on the fact that they'll be balanced out by mechanical disadvantages, but the issue as I've noted is that many people completely disregard their stats -until- they're negatively affected mechanically, at which point they briefly make note, and then promptly continue to RP their 6 wisdom barbarian as the pinnacle of insight and rational thought once they're no longer disadvantaged in-game.

I agree with Manarethan. People who dump their charisma and then play social masterminds really rustle my jimmies.

I don't know where this 'casual roleplay server' idea came from, considering that Amia requires so much roleplay to accomplish anything meaningful, whether it's personal or public. The fact that you can do both shouldn't dissuade anyone from the idea that you are

- rewarded for your roleplay
- offered opportunities to spend your rewards for said roleplay by participating in further roleplay to earn new requested spells, items, and abilities
- offered opportunities to participate in DM events that are chock full of roleplay
- have plentiful opportunities to engage in roleplay that can shape the server

...not to mention any number of other things that place Amia in a very -roleplay- centric area.

Last edited by IronAngel on Fri, Mar 08 2013, 10:04 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Liz wrote:

I tend to make my "dump stats" the physical ones (Str, Con) for this very reason. It doesn't take a lot of deep RP to portray a Con of 6. Occasionally make reference in descriptions and emotes to your character's slenderness or even fragility, and then if she actually gets in a fight, two or three hits and the game's mechanics RP her dump stat for you: she goes down like a sack of potatoes.

Yeah. Casters get that benefit. I do have the opposite problem, though: I had the vision of Joon as an unarmored, quarterstaff-whacking nerd who stays alive mostly by virtue of faith and a healthy instinct for self-preservation. As a Cleric/Monk though, his physical stats are too good. Maybe I should have gimped him harder, but that sort of goes against a large aspect of the game and I think simple training, experience and divine favor should go a long way in making you a successful adventurer. Joon hits hard because he hits with conviction (and he's a healthy young man bolstered by magic), but I don't think of him as an athlete outside combat. Still, 20 Strength, 14 Dex and 10 Con is hard to fairly represent without role-playing huge muscles and athletic grace. It's like only pure casters are allowed to be something other than steroid-pumped supermen.

I notice Charisma is his Dump Stat, at 8. That is more or less dictated by the demands of an eccentric build that tries to represent my vision as close as possible within the game's limits. To realize our concepts we have to make compromises, and that's why I'm not terribly bothered by people who downplay certain mechanical weaknesses. But in regards to Charisma, I find it hard to make people react to it. Joon has always stammered, blushed and sweated in awkward social situations. He can also be rather absent-minded or insensitive when he's interested in something other than a person's feelings. If somebody tells how their family was butchered in a battle, he's going to ask details about the battle rather than make them feel better. But he's also pretty smart when he knows things are serious, so I find it hard to justify major blunders in important situations just to laugh at his low Charisma. Most importantly, he's not a nasty, ill-mannered brute, and it seems people generally like him no matter his social clumsiness. They might not consider him an inspiring leader, but I think I've given people enough cause to dismiss him. Players just tend to be too nice and befriend anyone who isn't diametrically opposed to them, and that's hard to control. Even smelly, rude goblins are considered household pets.

And that's why a popular and civil, if gruff and ugly, Earth Genasi with 6 Charisma doesn't really bother me. If people don't want to react negatively to others and if you get stigmatized for being rude to a deformed fiendling, it must be very tiring to constantly persuade them not to like your character.

My point is based on the assumption (as I pointed out) that this as a policy would be highly inappropriate. Understood as a player's post made with the intent of educating people on something that diminishes everyone's overall experience I totally agree with it, so long as the caveat of there being a certain leeway in ambiguity that Iron mentioned is kept in mind as well. Personally I find a certain sort of satisfaction in representing not only what I've done at character creation, but the race's racial deficiencies as well; it's why my Shadovar always gets scammed by the dice people!

Sorry, I can't hear you. I have 8 Wisdom and no ranks in Listen.

Iron detailed a pretty accurate depiction of 8 charisma, in my mind. Thats what I'd expect from one. Joon is somewhat inept in social situations, as he's below 'average' in that particular regard. However, if your character has 6 Charisma and should justifiably be shunned, that's how it should go. If somebody inexplicably likes them despite your RP, thats fine. However, disregarding the stats and RPing the opposite in order to be liked is not. If you made a character with 6 charisma, you chose to do that. Its just as much a choice as making a drow and being shunned for that is.

Low charisma doesn't always mean "I'm ugly" or "I'm gruff/hard to get along with." It can also mean "I'm easy to push around" or "I tend not to stick out in social situations." It can also mean "I prefer to be alone and I don't like to take charge of other people."

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Sorry, I can't hear you. I have 8 Wisdom and no ranks in Listen.

Aside from your obvious snark, I can debunk your argument purely mechanically by stating that taking a 10 on a listen check with a -1 modifier still allows you to hear a whispered conversation. Troll harder.

Edit: Unless you're joking again, in which case you need to like, forum tag it because your snark and your sarcasm sound exactly the same.

Alas, I'll have to explain away the dual irony in my statement. You see, on one hand, it seems like I'm disagreeing (and disregarding) Manarethan's whole message. However, if you think about it, I am also agreeing since I am using my stats to explain my capacity for--

You know what, nevermind. I really hope I got counter-trolled.

Anyway, RPing stats is great. You should all do it.

I don't really disagree. But just to play the Devil's advocate: 6 Charisma for a race with -2 Charisma is the same as 8 for a human. That -2 Charisma on a Genasi represents either that people consider you a freak or that your personality is defined by your metaphysical nature rather than your individuality (as somebody eloquently suggested in a recent Lore discussion). The latter point requires some rather sophisticated translation and I will applaud any Planetouched who struggles with their natural urges and feels a sense of not being their own man - are they an individual forging your own path or are you just an epiphenomenon of greater planar tides? But that has little to do with social situations. The first point, on the other hand, is entirely up to other people. If you make it obvious you're a Genasi, then that's the -2 reaction you should get in social situations. If PCs just aren't bothered by it, that's their loss. Whichever explanation you pick, the actual social prowess of the character could be identical to that of a 8-Cha human.

I guess it also boils down to the ambiguity of Charisma. Every stat can mean a lot of things, but it's the murkiest. It can be sheer physical appearance and intense mannerism or a pleasant voice. It can be social shrewdness and the ability to manipulate situations in your favor. It can be just natural likeability. But in many cases, as with sorcerers and supernatural monsters with high charisma, it has to do with their force of personality, their sense of self. You don't cast spontaneous magic because you're pretty and nice, you do it because you're so certain of yourself that your belief can bend the multiverse. (Alright, that's a little too Planescape, but you get the point.)

But yeah, I don't want to contest your point. It's absolutely true and I support drawing attention to it. Just adding more nuance to it because I like to argue.

IronAngel wrote:

20 Strength, 14 Dex and 10 Con is hard to fairly represent without role-playing huge muscles and athletic grace. It's like only pure casters are allowed to be something other than steroid-pumped supermen.

This.

I have seen tons of STR female characters too, dev critting 38-40STR females with 8 cha and roleplay being a "very attractive young woman that smells of lavender", they'd be absolutely ripped, it'd be disgusting.

NWN's mechanics don't work like this, you can't get 10-12 points in each stat and expect to be viable in PvM/PvP on Amia.

Sure, people should roleplay their stats, but not everyone with 8 INT necessarily wants to roleplay their character being a dumbass, ripped to the point of looking like hulk, or not be able to hear because they only have 8 WIS.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Sorry, I can't hear you. I have 8 Wisdom and no ranks in Listen.

You posting in this thread spurs me to talk about Voronwer a little bit, because I think he's a great example of what Charisma is and isn't.

Charisma is *not* a measure of how well people should like you. All the mention above about likability is largely irrelevant. Charisma is, rather, your character's force of personality, the "weight" of your personality. A high Charisma character should feel more present, more vital, than a low Charisma character. Whether people like you is, as mentioned above, largely out of you control, and therefore not something that can or even should be represented on your character sheet. Even a high Cha character can be played excellently and be despised.

Example, Voronwer. He's a high Charisma character, and lots of people *loathe* him. His Charisma manifests not in being friendly and accommodating, but in his personality being this unstoppable force of nature that utterly engulfs the weaker personalities around him. Everything he does and says is suffused with "Voronwer-ness," an unmistakable quality that isn't really definable outside of "you know it when you see it." Spending any significant time with him leaves some sort of strong impression with you, maybe good, maybe bad, but undeniable and inimitable. When someone says, "that sounds like something Voronwer would say," everyone who knows him knows exactly what that means.

In short: the opposite of high Charisma is not unlikability. The opposite of high Charisma is blandness.

If you picked 8 in intelligence, that's your choice and you should be RPing accordingly. Nobody -has- to build with a dump-stat. Its absolutely not required. Sure, it makes you a little stronger, but you can be perfectly viable without it. If your character has 8 intelligence, then by a strictly RAW (rules as written) approach, they cannot speak correctly.

If you don't want to roleplay your crappy stats, don't dump your scores I guess?

The good news is, there are plenty of ways to roleplay "not good at ability score x". Cha has been demonstrated - you don't have to be gruff or completely lacking in social graces, you can demonstrate it in other ways. Wis is another good one in that you can be extra gullible or extra paranoid, weak-willed or stupidly stubborn. All that's really required is that you're less-than-fully-functional in that department. I think it's been said that wisdom represents the degree to which you're attuned to reality. Judgement is an important factor there. If you lack it, you judge things wrongly - and you can go towards either extreme for that.

Yeah I think "likeability" is a bad word to use for charisma. Though technically you can still be "likeable" and just.. not liked. But the implications of the word are misleading.

IronAngel wrote:

Whichever explanation you pick, the actual social prowess of the character could be identical to that of a 8-Cha human.

No, being a Genasi just makes it that much worse. The only way I could see this argument holding water is if you're interacting purely with other Genasi. Old versions of D&D used to make the distinction for dwarves that you only counted as having low charisma when dealing with non-dwarves, which is perfectly reasonable in my opinion. But only under those specific circumstances. The racial modifiers have to mean something, they can't just be ignored because "hey that's just typical for your race." Typical for an Earth Genasi is just that much worse than someone who doesn't have that extra -2.

Like I was saying, Charisma is your ability to stand out and be heard, not necessarily positively or negatively. That's all about how you wield it - intimidation, persuasion, bluff, taunt, et cetera.

The opposite of love isn't hate, it's to treat someone with a blasé attitude.

I consider a 6 charisma genasi to be the same as a 6 intelligence half-orc. That is to say, someone with 6 in a stat. They're fundamentally flawed in that field. My justification would be something like this. Their planar blood has such a defining influence on their personality and world view that, even if they go a different route, they find defining themselves innately difficult as they have it done for them on a constant basis. They struggle to go against the path of their blood. Even if they embrace it, their strength of personality and character is weakened because its the choice of their blood, rather than something which they chose for themselves.

Genasi specifically probably have a bit of an easy way out - they are literally outsiders, innately alien to social structures. There is no genasi society, you just appear in someone else's society and have to fit in. Even the most self-assured genasi is swimming against the current.

Let's not derail the topic with the charisma argument, shall we? Stat dumping, ability scores in general, should be RPed. There's a few problems I can see with that and without wishing to sound offensive, here they are:

1) People don't want to RP a low stat (especially cha and int) because it would ruin the image they had of their character. This has been touched upon in other topics, so I'll leave it at that.

2) People aren't always capable of RPing either a very high or a very low ability score. I'm sorry, it's just the reality of it - not everyone can RP a 28 Int wizard or 28 Cha paladin/cleric/sorcerer or what have you. The opposite of that is also quite true. Some people, much as they try, can't RP having a low charisma score, or wisdom or whatever. No matter how good a roleplayer you are, at some point, you'll go "you know, not even my 6 wis half-orc barbarian is oblivious enough to fall for such a blatant trap".

3) What Manarethan said about not needing to stat dump is absolutely true but, at the same time, people want their builds to do well and many feel compelled to.

Now, I've played an elf bard with 8 Int and 8 Wis for a time and did try to RP those ability scores. Bottom line is, I don't play that character anymore, because it was infuriatingly difficult to do so. I'll conclude by highlighting what was said before:

Manarethan wrote:

If you picked 8 in intelligence, that's your choice and you should be RPing accordingly. Nobody -has- to build with a dump-stat.

Last edited by IronAngel on Fri, Mar 08 2013, 11:12 AM, edited 2 times in total.

CouncilofAutumn wrote:

No, being a Genasi just makes it that much worse. The only way I could see this argument holding water is if you're interacting purely with other Genasi. Old versions of D&D used to make the distinction for dwarves that you only counted as having low charisma when dealing with non-dwarves, which is perfectly reasonable in my opinion. But only under those specific circumstances. The racial modifiers have to mean something, they can't just be ignored because "hey that's just typical for your race." Typical for an Earth Genasi is just that much worse than someone who doesn't have that extra -2.

They mean something, to be sure. But what do they mean? What are they worse at, exactly? Both of the options I suggested seem like credible parts of the truth, and neither of them means you have to be shy, insecure or insensitive in social situations.

If we separate these aspects of Charisma and focus on the social presence, I don't see why it couldn't be exactly what you describe with previous edition dwarves. I'm sure any sensible DM would apply modifiers to rolls to offset the penalty when you're dealing with other Planetouched (of the same element, at least). Just because it doesn't say so in the race description doesn't make it any less likely. We both know that it was a conscious game design decision to simplify and streamline 3e, which resulted in losing the diversity and flavor of 2e rules. It was a purely mechanical and market-oriented move that should have no bearing on how we interpret the setting.

And since Charisma represents three completely unrelated things, a low score might mean serious lack in one department and average performance in others. The two obvious explanations for Genasi Charisma are their physical ugliness (a legitimate and documented aspect of Charisma) and the existential crisis inherent in their nature. Social aptitude is a third aspect that need not have any connection to the other two. (And before you argue that a strong sense of self is connected to social presence: there are plenty of renowned actors and public speakers in history who are terribly insecure or lost with themselves.)

EDIT: My point is: The -2 Charisma modifier of the Genasi subraces already represents certain deficiencies of the race. Namely, being ugly freaks and having their identity dictated by their planar nature. You need not account for that penalty in your social prowess as well. Certainly a Genasi with 8 Charisma is not a shining beacon of inspiration, but the low score does not (necessarily) imply a social ineptitude any greater or more obvious than that of a human with 10 Charisma - the average guy. It becomes 8 because of completely unrelated factors. It's pretty clear mathematics.

As I see it though, a thing isn't just set by the ability that governs it, but also skillpoint choises and/or the character's saves.

Example:

A low cha character, but one that invested in persuasion. While persuasion alone wouldn't really offset all the shortcommings that might follow low charisma, it could certainly help mask it, no?

I always thought as ability stats being the "base" of your character and what they are naturally good or bad at. Then adding everything else on top of that to give them more depth, maybe they tried to overcome something they are naturally bad at by training or study or completely neglected that side in favor of just focusing on their strong sides.

In the end though, the way I see it, no amount of training or education can completely make up for a character's lack in a stat. But having your character try is something that can build depth in a very interresting way.

Gravemaskin wrote:

As I see it though, a thing isn't just set by the ability that governs it, but also skillpoint choises and/or the character's saves.

Example:

A low cha character, but one that invested in persuasion. While persuasion alone wouldn't really offset all the shortcommings that might follow low charisma, it could certainly help mask it, no?

I always thought as ability stats being the "base" of your character and what they are naturally good or bad at. Then adding everything else on top of that to give them more depth, maybe they tried to overcome something they are naturally bad at by training or study or completely neglected that side in favor of just focusing on their strong sides.

In the end though, the way I see it, no amount of training or education can completely make up for a character's lack in a stat. But having your character try is something that can build depth in a very interresting way.

Well yeah. I don't think anybody's arguing against that.

Does this apply to representing high ability scores too?

Examples:
If I have 30 base strength do I get to run around as a 800 pound gorilla man with the ability to punch whoever I want with enough force to send them through whatever I want? Are dms going to respect my ability to smash my fist into things so hard that my bones shatter and my enemies explode?

If I have 30 base dexterity do I get to ride a unicycle through the Forest of Despair while using a long bow to shoot spaghetti noodles into Malar's flesh hole?

If I have 30 base constitution do I get to say, "Psh," when DM Plot Monster X hits me with a greater ruin, or am I simply going to get shot with 6 more 'once per day' spells until I'm dead?

If I have 30 base intelligence do I get to invent said unicycle?

If I have 30 base wisdom do- I don't really care about wisdom.

If I have 30 base charisma and 105 persuade do I get to convince Kelemvor that the undead I just created in a graveyard is actually my 8 year old daughter that I'm bringing to a mid-semester parent-teacher conference?

Answers to the dex and con ones are the most important. Charisma is somewhat important as well.

Isn't that exactly what happens in the game?

Let's all make ourselves feel better by having great explanations for our dump stats. Those filthy powergamers. They got no explanations! :wink:

While I totally agree with the sentiment here, almost every character has dump stats. Anyone who's gotten into building just a little bit sees the advantage of having a good build. So let's stroke our collective egos a little bit less and just enjoy the game. That arse who plays his 8 CHA build as being devilishly handsome will continue to do so. He probably doesn't read the forums, either. The less you worry about his character, the better you'll feel.

CouncilofAutumn wrote:

Isn't that exactly what happens in the game?

No. I would like to know so I can do all of those things.

Cerpin Taxt wrote:

CouncilofAutumn wrote:

Isn't that exactly what happens in the game?

No. I would like to know so I can do all of those things.

The problem you're running into is that the enemies you face also have 30s in their stats and can convince Kelemvor to wear fruity bonnets (unfortunately Kelemvor has a +5000 to Persuade so you probably don't want to go there). Comparatively - which is most important given the power level in the game - speaking, the power to punch holes in mountains and dream up powers to transcend time and space or conjure fire are exactly what happens here, for both the PCs and the enemies they're fighting. Given the power creep, that makes the 6's and 8's even more obvious by comparison.

If you have a shitty stat that you took because you wanted to be a pvp master, then play that shit up and don't sweep it under the rug. Dump stats are just as important to your character as the stuff you bought with 'em.

You don't dump stats to become a pvp master you dump stats for survivability.

CouncilofAutumn wrote:

Cerpin Taxt wrote:

CouncilofAutumn wrote:

Isn't that exactly what happens in the game?

No. I would like to know so I can do all of those things.

The problem you're running into is that the enemies you face also have 30s in their stats and can convince Kelemvor to wear fruity bonnets (unfortunately Kelemvor has a +5000 to Persuade so you probably don't want to go there). Comparatively - which is most important given the power level in the game - speaking, the power to punch holes in mountains and dream up powers to transcend time and space or conjure fire are exactly what happens here, for both the PCs and the enemies they're fighting. Given the power creep, that makes the 6's and 8's even more obvious by comparison.

If you have a shitty stat that you took because you wanted to be a pvp master, then play that shit up and don't sweep it under the rug. Dump stats are just as important to your character as the stuff you bought with 'em.

According to Faiths and Pantheons, Kelemvor has a sense motive of 20+39. If I went cha 30 and got normal/epic skill focus, I could get my item-less persuade up to 1d20+33+16+13=63-82, which beats his sense motive 100% of the time.

I'm not saying people should ignore the shitty sides of their character, but dms should respect the strengths and not make it an arms race.

Half the fun of roleplaying is wrapping my head about how stats influence my toons. But then I rarely have a character with a negative stat (unless intended).

Maybe the problem is how people see their stats influence the character? I dont personally see CHA as physical beauty alone, but I suppose many do, especially if you read some ingame Bios.

For what it is worth I personally think rping stats is fun, so I do it by default, or try to at least. But unless it is written in gigantic letters and stickied and made a rule and DMs enforce it, most people wont. Many because Amia is a popular server that will attract new people with varying opinions and experiences, many simply because they can.

This is where the "casual" idea comes from I think. I dont know all of Amia's (the server) history, but I believe it was created after a schism with another server that was considered "hardcore", and this also gives the idea of casual. I cant find it now but I am very sure I read something in the rules to the effect of "if you think your character needs to eat three meals a day... This is not the server for you". My phrasing might be off but I hope you get it. There is also a note on the Main Rules Of Amia that specifically says you shouldnt expect good roleplay from others (good as in Good Enough For ME!), nor expect people to have knowledge from D&D official sources. This includes extensive knowledge or even deeper understanding of stats IMHO.

And again I will say this, anyone reading the forums before playing will see the three letters "PVP" all around. Build topics, faction topics, everywhere. This alone will make people who enjoy conflict, pvp and "winning" work on more "effective" characters. Some of those will be roleplayed as their Char Sheets describe them. Most just wont. (Yes I am biased here so please take this last part with a fist-sized grain of salt).

Cerpin Taxt wrote:

According to Faiths and Pantheons, Kelemvor has a sense motive of 20+39. If I went cha 30 and got normal/epic skill focus, I could get my item-less persuade up to 1d20+33+16+13=63-82, which beats his sense motive 100% of the time.

I'm not saying people should ignore the shitty sides of their character, but dms should respect the strengths and not make it an arms race.

Kelemvor doesn't have any items in that description aside from his weapon. He could spend some of his many free actions in a given round to create a few items that give him sizeable bonuses to persuade (of different types, too, so they all stack!) and put them on before he ever makes the roll. He also, as a god, always rolls 20 on any d20 check, not to mention that description is an avatar and not the actual god, who on his divine realm could just ignore your roll and turn you into whatever he wants (Divinely Morphic). Enjoy your bonnet.

I agree about the arms race thing, but that's something that gets precipitated on both sides. It happens in any game that has more than a handful of people in it.

This is why I gave Kurchin a 14 CHA on a rogue biuld, AKA provides little to no actual mechanical benefit. However, to anyone who's RPed with Kurchin, he definitely does -not- have an 8 CHA,... not with all his nose rubbing huggly antics.

And yes, mechanically his build makes him a complete and utter whimp. ^.^

The stat I gave was Kelemvor's, and I already put the fact that he rolls 20 in there. His avatars' stats are given afterwards.
If I'm wrong, give me a page number that says otherwise.

Quote:

Create Magic Items: Kelemvor can create any magic weapon or armor, any item that produces a death effect, any item that controls or protects against undead, and any item that reproduces the effects of a spell found on the Repose domain list.

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Create Magic Items: The kinds of magic items the deity can create without needing an item creation feat. The deity still must spend time and experience points to create the items.

Please tell me this thread hasn't seriously devolved into bickering about who could beat up Kelemvor. You're talking in some kind of secret code about something not ridiculous, right? Please?

xordae wrote:

That arse who plays his 8 CHA build as being devilishly handsome will continue to do so. He probably doesn't read the forums, either. The less you worry about his character, the better you'll feel.

Pretty much this. Mind you, it does not mean I am not slightly pissed about it. An occasional DM bitch-slap in game may do the charm, you know.

And Liz, your location is <3

serbiris wrote:

If you don't want to roleplay your crappy stats, don't dump your scores I guess?

This.

This is why I typically do not dump stats unless it is for character reasons. My Earth Genasi barbarian has 8 CHA. Guess what? He's a unsocial, and sometimes angry, prick, along with the racial freakiness of his skin/hair/muscle structure (he's also hitting 21 STR/CON so yeah he's odd looking). My soon-to-be 30 wizard? 8 CHA. Guess what? He's not ugly be he can be a condescending dick especially if you are not a wizard or simply unintelligent (he also rocks a 27 INT at level 28 so his expectations are high). Boke-Yeke, my pretty bad arse fighter, has 8 DEX and guess what? He's older (in his thirties) and not as dexterous because of it.

Now, my Sharessin cleric has a whopping 18 CHA and rather than have her be omg-uber-hot she's just highly attractive with a huge personality. She also a decent strength of 13 so she's nicely toned (which aids the physical attractiveness); not as dexterous though better than average (10 DEX including the -1 from Mulans); her CON is so so (at 10), so she is quite lithe; and her mental attributes peak at 12 INT and 22 WIS, so while she's not super intelligent she is far from stupid and she's exceptionally wise. My drow cleric as well has her CHA/WIS reflected in her RP, along with her physical stats.

My point? If you dump a stat and don't RP it in some way you (or even worse play the negative CHA/INT/WIS social butterfly/genius/wiseman) you need to stop being stupid. Yours stats reflect your character, though obviously with some leeway because people do change. But larger changes require more accurate stats so you should probably think about rebuilding.

xordae wrote:

Let's all make ourselves feel better by having great explanations for our dump stats. Those filthy powergamers. They got no explanations! :wink:

While I totally agree with the sentiment here, almost every character has dump stats. Anyone who's gotten into building just a little bit sees the advantage of having a good build. So let's stroke our collective egos a little bit less and just enjoy the game. That arse who plays his 8 CHA build as being devilishly handsome will continue to do so. He probably doesn't read the forums, either. The less you worry about his character, the better you'll feel.

Read more. Dump stats if you want, but RP them. Don't be such a derp.

Liz wrote:

Please tell me this thread hasn't seriously devolved into bickering about who could beat up Kelemvor. You're talking in some kind of secret code about something not ridiculous, right? Please?

It's Cerpin, we tend to ignore him.

No policy changes here. Just be more considerable of your poor dump stats. They deserve to be treated like they exist. Ignoring them makes them sad.

And have you seen a homeless dump-stat soup kitchen? It's terrible. Take responsibility for your dump stat. Don't ignore it and leave it out in the cold.

I find the 'force of personality' part of charisma quite interesting to play out, and I think the Voronwer example was an excellent one. On the other end of that spectrum is one of my characters; Valygar. With 8 charisma, he is all to happy to hang out in the back, and the very idea of being a public figure or someone people look to for leadership is a rather terrifying prospect. That is not to say he is social inept, on the contrary he gets along quite well with people and does not decline invitations to grand festivities. Call him up on a stage however, and he will have to chug down those sweet potions of Eagles Splendor or wear his lucky charm charisma amulet. Like he did that one time he pushed his boundaries and held a public sermon in Endir's Point. Boy did he have nerves.

CouncilofAutumn wrote:

People who dump their charisma and then play social masterminds really rustle my jimmies.

This.

Would it be unreasonable for a DM to guide someone towards a better roleplaying direction, if they saw just this kind of an occurance taking place? I think not. There are people (myself included) who invest ability scores in CHA & WIS on characters who do not depend on them in combat, and feel it is stupid and unfair that you got 6-CHA man model ladykiller tieflings roaming around, with zero RP correspondence to their mechanical, social attributes.

I remember having an OOC conversation with... someone... who had low charisma on their halfling, but roleplayed being the hottest thing next to the sun. Their biography was filled with 'sexy' 'muscular' and 'cute', if memory serves. The response I got was pretty much: "He's not charismatic, he's just plain sizzlin' sexy!"

I'm not sure what to think of that, but I rarely feel the inclination to play along with cases like that, knowing full well that their roleplay doesn't reflect their characters stats or skills.

The1Kobra wrote:

This is why I gave Kurchin a 14 CHA on a rogue biuld, AKA provides little to no actual mechanical benefit. However, to anyone who's RPed with Kurchin, he definitely does -not- have an 8 CHA,... not with all his nose rubbing huggly antics.

And yes, mechanically his build makes him a complete and utter whimp. ^.^

Don't listen to the smiley face. I've seen that thing tank a dragon!

QPR wrote:

I find the 'force of personality' part of charisma quite interesting to play out, and I think the Voronwer example was an excellent one. On the other end of that spectrum is one of my characters; Valygar. With 8 charisma, he is all to happy to hang out in the back, and the very idea of being a public figure or someone people look to for leadership is a rather terrifying prospect. That is not to say he is social inept, on the contrary he gets along quite well with people and does not decline invitations to grand festivities. Call him up on a stage however, and he will have to chug down those sweet potions of Eagles Splendor or wear his lucky charm charisma amulet. Like he did that one time he pushed his boundaries and held a public sermon in Endir's Point. Boy did he have nerves.

My way is this, and I love it: Oaru CHA 06 enters the Shrine, spots a couple of elves laying together under a tree - Oy there, hope ye dinnae mind me interrupting yer frolickin', but seein' ye still got yer clothes on, could ye tell me where Vin'ndo be?

On side note to clarify, if my previous post sounded like I suggested policy changes I apologise. It was more my opinion on the whys and hows rather than a suggestion to change anything.

There is a reason Tae is an absolute dick to everyone, and it has a lot to do with his really low charisma modifier. Being a scaley fanged bastard tiefer doesn't make it any higher either.

And yet for some reason I can't fathom, the ladies dig him.

Yossarin wrote:

No policy changes here. Just be more considerable of your poor dump stats. They deserve to be treated like they exist. Ignoring them makes them sad.

Nivo wrote:

And have you seen a homeless dump-stat soup kitchen? It's terrible. Take responsibility for your dump stat. Don't ignore it and leave it out in the cold.

Have you seen Dominik's fashion sense?

I'm keeping my 8 charisma stat dump nice and warm....

With powder blue robes...

and social awkwardness much to the dismay of a certain snow elf.

PS: Yes, Nivo, I already altered the new robes, and they look exactly like Dominik's other four sets of robes.

Dear god.

Stats, and the Dumping Thereof

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