AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Hey, folks.

So the DM Team was recently discussing PMs and their undead grafts. We have zounds of issues with people improperly obscuring their palemastery, and something about this unsettles us. It seems an abuse of the condition, and palemasters should not, in our collective opinion, be able to simply hide their sin from so many people. (In my own personal opinion, they shouldn't even really want to; having abandoned humanity to pursue undeath, what do they care about the opinions of others?)

But before we embark on any major changes, we wanted to test the waters. We are very much leaning towards making it at the very least more challenging for Palemasters than to just don a glove and thumb their nose at everyone else.

We discussed the possibility of adding some new options for palemasters. Maybe instead of a bone arm, you can have vampire teeth, or wight nails, or zombie flesh, or bodak eyes or whatever. On the plus side, they might have unique new PM abilities. On the downside, they are all, obviously, even harder to hide.

This approach, however, came with a LOAD of obvious problems. I guarantee you, if you think of a problem to the approach, we did, too. So we were thinking of just abandoning it altogether until I suggested that we might as well just ask you if it is something worth doing. After all, it affects all of you way more than it affects us, and might be more interesting in the long run.

So if you have any bright ideas on this front, or even an opinion, dive in. Just don't use this thread to claim we're trying to rain on your parade. I will mercilessly mock those of you who do in my head.

In before Lucius asks for "D: All of the above"

I'm all for it. I've always actually wanted palemastery to be a request class (as with most PrC's) but alas it wont be so.

With great power comes great responsibility visibility.

I think that perhaps at different levels more things can be added. In line with the the AC bonuses, different attributes can be added. I've always liked the idea of more physical changes after 10 levels.

In short. Yes Yes Yes. More powers.

I've always thought what you said. Should be visible, they look different, smell different, feel different, etc. Kind of like a BG has that palpable aura about them. The PM should be known for what they are. I dont think its something you can hide.

Yossarin wrote:

(In my own personal opinion, they shouldn't even really want to; having abandoned humanity to pursue undeath, what do they care about the opinions of others?

Expediency.

Actual Realms lore is welcome in the discussion, of course. To those who know a lot about it. Since this is an FR server we DMs sometimes like to allow canon material to affect our decisions.

Why would those things be any harder to hide? The graphical limitations of the game have left us with the impression that even a simple hood completely obscures the wearer's face, and a thick glove would realistically hide even a pretty hideous manicure. I blame the graphical limits for people's ability to conceal their bone arms, too: a sleeve on a bone arm simply would not look or move like a sleeve with a flesh arm in it. It would flop around loosely and obviously. A bone arm in metal armor would clank around hollowly. But the game doesn't aloow those things to be portrayed on screen.

If you want to make palemastery unconcealable, stick PMs with a bone tail or bone wings, or both, RDD-style. The stuff you've suggested won't do the trick.

I think tacking on a white glowing eye vfx once they take their third level in the PrC and obtain darkvision as a result of an eye graft is warranted and a pretty straight-forward solution. To me, the undead-eyes are the most glaring issue as everything else can be covered up, perfumed, or strategically placed to hide the palemaster's true nature while still having one's face exposed. It isn't of course a perfect solution, namely because the vfx is visible through helmets and it isn't the most accurate visible representation of having grafted eyes, but then again, things in NWN rarely are.

So the idea is to forcefeed pms pvp? Why shouldnt they be allowed to hide it?

I've always liked the idea of more grafts, but I just gave in and made one alt so I won't be making my long-planned PM. My opinion is therefore irrelevant. I'm not sure how to represent the stuff in game, though. Simply giving more generic abilities with nothing to show for it is boring.

One kind of tongue-in-cheek, but not totally unreasonable idea I have is to make swarms of flies or dust clouds swirl around the rotting and mummified Pale Masters, respectively. There are effects available to show that.

More grafts would be awesome. Unfortunately I never have time to play my PM anymore anyway, but still.

I think the scent of a pale-master should be apparent. A creature can smell rotting flesh, a dead body has a specific rancid scent to it. You who graft this to yourself graft those aromas, I do not think it likely for a palemaster to apply 100% bleach and eau de ne mort pas to his bones before his day at the office.

In other words, we should be able to know if you are indeed a palemaster this way.

Sunkin Sheep wrote:

I think the scent of a pale-master should be apparent. A creature can smell rotting flesh, a dead body has a specific rancid scent to it. You who graft this to yourself graft those aromas, I do not think it likely for a palemaster to apply 100% bleach and eau de ne mort pas to his bones before his day at the office.

In other words, we should be able to know if you are indeed a palemaster this way.

Bones don't smell. Scent doesn't leave air tight containers either.
Bini's post is the only one I find relevant to something they couldn't hide with ease.

Palin489 wrote:

So the idea is to forcefeed pms pvp? Why shouldnt they be allowed to hide it?

Not the idea/intent, but it is a consequence thereof. Just more reason why it is given over to the playerbase now to make their opinions known.

PMs and their garments are not airtight containers.

It doesn't have to smell like rotting flesh though. The acrid scent of embalming fluid is just as appropriate!

Also there's nothing which states definitively that darkvision is as a result of an undead graft so um? Unless it's Amia lore.

Cerpin Taxt wrote:

Bones don't smell. Scent doesn't leave air tight containers either.
Bini's post is the only one I find relevant to something they couldn't hide with ease.

If you're trying to say your PM goes around all the time completely sealed in an airtight container, I'd suggest you try to give that a little bit more thought.

You have bone skin anyway. If you've reached the point where you've completely covered everything about your body, hidden the grafts you've loving attached to satisfy your perversion, concealed the smell of undeath, and somehow manage to move like a normal human being despite being a mutated bastard - well, you're so well disguised in your air-tight container that your attempt to hide something incriminating is obvious anyway.

More conflict (and PvP, though I never get to do it) is definitely a positive thing. Pale Masters wearing their colors proudly is fitting. And buzzing swarms of flies following you around are hilarious. Of course, it's only fair to give them something fun and not just slap on an incriminating visual effect and call it a day.

Pale Masters are probably not the class most in need of attention, though. Allowing for demonic grafts and mutations on other arcane casters would add some diversity to villains, for example.

Hee hee, and now you see why we were at a standstill. Not only is there a huge question of how to implement, but also one of should we implement. So we're willing to hear your input.

A,B,C

Action, Begets, Consequence.

Choosing to become a Palemaster is a conscious and life-changing choice in character, and it should be recognized OOC for the potential of influence it's going to have.

The reverse exists for those who choose to walk closer to the path of the Fundamental Good, like Tuomas does. He doesn't have as much in the way of in game obviousness like a bone-arm, but he bears Celestial symbology on his wrists, and throat as well as the deep scars of what was done to him.

Choice, Matters. Choice, Affects.

I am glad the DMs are considering measures to encourage this and make Palemasters more interesting.

As is, I know soon I am going to be working towards a possible rebuild of Tuomas to more reflect his new Paradigm and I am not sure how it's going to come out in the wash.

What about the silly duration of PM spells then, and the power of them?

Lizzie wrote:

Cerpin Taxt wrote:

Bones don't smell. Scent doesn't leave air tight containers either.
Bini's post is the only one I find relevant to something they couldn't hide with ease.

If you're trying to say your PM goes around all the time completely sealed in an airtight container, I'd suggest you try to give that a little bit more thought.

Only need the arm to be sealed.
Get some treated leather. Tailor it to your arm, sew it up.
Take some cloth you can change everyday and wrap it around your bone arm. Put the leather over it. Tourniquet the leather at your wrist and shoulder. Cover that with whatever you normally wear.

But ya know what? How many people in Forgotten Realms bathe daily? How many would smell like shit and sweat? How many people go up and smell other people's arms? I'd suggest you try to give that a little bit more thought.

I feel like there should be a restriction between taking pale master and dragon disciple as well.

Just how much can you fuck with your blood and dark magic until you lose control of yourself? I don't think the body can go through such an extreme spectrum and still keep your heart or your mind intact. You should go insane first.

But should they remain implemented? Yes I think these kinds of characters are still cool, but it shouldn't be as easy and harmless as getting a tattoo. The more you screw with your body, blood, and mind, the more you screw yourself in other ways. The more levels you take in PM, DD, the more off-worldly you're going to become, you monster. Yes?

EDIT: There would be exceptions, rather -should- be the exception only on perhaps the dracolich type. Or some sort of alternative take that might require similar traits of the two classes, these characters should be by request only.

Grymia wrote:

Choosing to become a Palemaster is a conscious and life-changing choice in character, and it should be recognized OOC for the potential of influence it's going to have.

This. A hundred times this.

Also, Cerpin, what you described is not air tight. The stink of decaying flesh is not the same as the stink of unwashed bodies. It's not just one arm, it's the character's entire body.

Back on topic, I think this might have positive results, if it'll get off the ground, at any rate.

Dude, the vital function of your organs has been severely altered. You have freaking CALCIFIED SKIN. Your biology is so, so much more screwed up than one replaced limb. You definitely smell. Yeah, people don't bathe as regularly in the setting, but our sense of smell adjusts. We can still smell a damn half-rotting/embalmed body. It's a distinctive odour.

Grymia wrote:

A,B,C

Action, Begets, Consequence.

Choosing to become a Palemaster is a conscious and life-changing choice in character, and it should be recognized OOC for the potential of influence it's going to have.

....

Choice, Matters. Choice, Affects.

I am glad the DMs are considering measures to encourage this and make Palemasters more interesting.

This. x100.

Last edited by serbiris on Sun, Mar 03 2013, 23:05 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Quote:

Choosing to become a Palemaster is a conscious and life-changing choice in character, and it should be recognized OOC for the potential of influence it's going to have.

Actually... not necessarily true. Or at least, not according to the DMs I mentioned my character idea to (it doesn't matter anymore whether or not the concept is okay at large because I've not been able to play the character anymore anyways). Based on the NWN requirements of the class and its writeup in Libris Mortis there's nothing really to say that the Palemaster isn't actually the *subject* of someone else's obsession. The PC could have been captured, found genetically suitable (ie 3 innate caster levels for instance) and subject to heavy experimentation. Induced behaviours to upkeep the grafts for the sake of survival, and/or alchemical dependencies. It explains all the abilities. So, it seems perfectly viable that Palemastery isn't a character choice.

It is of course a player choice either way - and when I played my Palemaster I had no issues with her being *accosted even though (in her mind if nothing else) it wasn't her fault. So I'm not saying that PMs who don't choose it (though I think I played the only one, again assuming the DM team at large doesn't oppose it) should get a free pass, but saying that it's a conscious choice may be factually untrue.

*No one ever picked up on the fact that she was a Palemaster, even though it should've been obvious from the bio (didn't get to bone arm stage). I guess the giant horns were a distraction.

What about glowing eyes? Some colour the monks dont have, you cant hide those.

Was suggested above. Glowing white eyes. I forgot to mention that I rather liked that idea, if it could somehow be explained in a manner that made sense within the amian lore.

Yes. Cuts down on a lot of unnecessary posts if, in making a suggestion like that, you also give total justification for why.

That'll teach me for just skimming through the posts. I'd say it would be a manifestation of the magical energies flooding through the body of the Palemaster, or something along those lines.

Yossarin wrote:

Yes. Cuts down on a lot of unnecessary posts if, in making a suggestion like that, you also give total justification for why.

Eye grafts from something with glowing eyes, as an explanation for why PMs have darkvision, is what was suggested above. Which seems pretty plausible to me.

serbiris wrote:

Quote:

Choosing to become a Palemaster is a conscious and life-changing choice in character, and it should be recognized OOC for the potential of influence it's going to have.

Actually... not necessarily true. Or at least, not according to the DMs I mentioned my character idea to (it doesn't matter anymore whether or not the concept is okay at large because I've not been able to play the character anymore anyways). Based on the NWN requirements of the class and its writeup in Libris Mortis there's nothing really to say that the Palemaster isn't actually the *subject* of someone else's obsession. The PC could have been captured, found genetically suitable (ie 3 innate caster levels for instance) and subject to heavy experimentation. Induced behaviours to upkeep the grafts for the sake of survival, and/or alchemical dependencies. It explains all the abilities. So, it seems perfectly viable that Palemastery isn't a character choice.

It is of course a player choice either way - and when I played my Palemaster I had no issues with her being *accosted even though (in her mind if nothing else) it wasn't her fault. So I'm not saying that PMs who don't choose it (though I think I played the only one, again assuming the DM team at large doesn't oppose it) should get a free pass, but saying that it's a conscious choice may be factually untrue.

*No one ever picked up on the fact that she was a Palemaster, even though it should've been obvious from the bio (didn't get to bone arm stage). I guess the giant horns were a distraction.

The class requirement in conventional PnP has follows (IIRC):

Knowledge: Religion 8 Ranks
Skill focus: Knowledge Religion.
Ability to cast: Vampiric Touch and Command Undead as Arcane spells.

Special: Must have spent Three or more days locked in a tomb with Animate undead. This contact can be peaceful or violent.

--

I think in the example you mentioned it could be an alternative for something similar to the Pale master (an unfortunate product of experimentation) but in that case I think it'd be something which fits the Special Character Request rules, and would need to be negotiated with the DM team.

The Knowledge Religion requirement says to me that it is something more akin to a willing ritual in the default form, though.

To be fair: I think an alternative similar to the Pale Master but blending construct parts into oneself imght be an interesting thought again for similarly purview of a Special Character Request.

Quote:

We are very much leaning towards making it at the very least more challenging for Palemasters than to just don a glove and thumb their nose at everyone else.

Do it. Signed, Reinard.

While Serbris brings up a valid example, I'll expand on it by saying that even in cases like that, the effect that such experimentation (or conscious choice in the case of most PMs) has on the individual, is what changes their heart/soul/mind.

My thought on the suggestion of the glowing white eyes is that it may be possible to have that hidden by a hood (IE the VFX is removed OnEquip for the helm slot, and replaced OnUnequiped for the helm slot). I'm not 100% sure it would be doable, but if it is it would both provide a means where PMs can still try to be sneaky about it (face covering) but still more reliably identifiable in situations where they should be (eg. walking up to a gate guard inspecting travelers).

Metalien wrote:

What about glowing eyes? Some colour the monks dont have, you cant hide those.

>:E HOW ABOUT EVERYONE GETS GLOWING EYES

Quote:

The Knowledge Religion requirement says to me that it is something more akin to a willing ritual in the default form, though.

I question the nature of this knowledge requirement. I don't think you can argue that a Palemaster's grafts are 100% directly as a result of knowing about them. The knowledge brings the skills which place the grafts. So what if someone else possesses the knowledge and capabilities of performing these actions? That's the premise. Anyway I wasn't told to make a special character request at the time and again, it doesn't really matter since I dropped the character. Just food for thought. Me sorry for cluttering thread.

I think, Glim, your idea makes good sense, except it overlooks that a PM's face is already MADE OF BONE. If a guard can see a PM's face, glowy eyes are redundant.

Maybe PMs should have their skin color changed to the color "Bone" upon gaining the Bone Skin ability?

I don't want this thred to waste too much time on the finer points of VFX so much, but wouldn't it make more sense just to give them a swarm of flies?

It would be the only possible means of representing a quality all third level and higher palemasters are mechanically forced to possess, that being darkvision as a result of deader-eyes in their face in place of their original eyes. The grafted eyes are as ubiquitous as the graft arm, but invisible, and more often than not disregarded entirely simply because people don't know, or it is an inconvenience.

The palemaster's face is not made of bone, nor does their skin calcify. Bone skin is the result of the grafting of any manner of corporeal undead's skin to their body. Of course a higher AC bonus from it translates to more coverage, but for the most part the palemaster has a choice as to where they replace their tissues.

Lizzie wrote:

Maybe PMs should have their skin color changed to the color "Bone" upon gaining the Bone Skin ability?

We'd bandied that idea around as well, but the question was raised of combinations with RDD that would have dragon colors to it, or tieflings or drow for example that would have different underlying skin tones.

Though Bini's analysis is one potential solution for that issue.

Why would a PM's eyes glow white thought? Most undead don't have glowing eyes. Darkvision isn't a reason for a creature's eyes to start glowing... otherwise drow eyes would glow all the time Below and that doesn't happen. Would a PM have to graft deader eyes in place of their own, or...?

If it seems like I'm nitpicking without contributing, I swear I'm not trying to. I just don't think that line of reasoning is enough to explain a PM suddenly getting glowing eyes at PrC level 3.

To me the vfx is a representation of something that is there, rather than what is actually taking place. Just as bardsong, or the KC auras aren't necessarily accurate in terms of wysiwyg, the glowing white eyes would indicate that someone has a pair of undead eyes versus typical eyes. White just seems appropriate as it isn't currently used by another class (or any other PCs to my knowledge) and it is fairly neutral and less intrusive than say yellow.

It doesn't even say the Darkvision comes from a graft anyway. For all we know it could be a result of some biological process which alters the eye function. Darkvision doesn't make much scientific sense after all. So is this specific Amia lore that isn't written down anywhere or are people just being authoritative for no reason?

... Still, glowy eyes works with this interpretation anyway, and it serves the purpose required at least.

It does come from a graft, just as every other ability of the palemaster class that isn't the explicit summoning or creation of undead.

The partial mummification entails the removal of organs. Could that be a start ?

examples :
:arrow:

PM drops a lung at lvl 10, breathes with a hissing sound, which can be heard / felt as a 30' aura ?
:arrow:

Mummification through desiccation of the body results in visible face alteration, at least (perma-change head through Leto)

Bini wrote:

It does come from a graft, just as every other ability of the palemaster class that isn't the explicit summoning or creation of undead.

But where does it say this? I've read through the description and it's very mum as to the nature of this "special lore". And if PM gets non-graft abilities as you say (summoning undead) why wouldn't darkvision be one of those?

You need to quote sources or DMs or give me something to go on, because the description I've read doesn't support it.

Maybe it comes from a graft, maybe it doesn't. Same for the Bone Skin; maybe it's a graft, maybe it's calcification. To a certain extent, any discussion of how things presently are isn't exactly relevant. This thread isn't meant to determine how things are, or have been. It's meant to determine how things *should be*. If it turns out that making a change to commonly accepted lore interpretation will prove to solve problems, then the existing lore should be mercilessly scrapped and replaced with something that's equally sensible without contributing to undesirables such as the overrepresented, implausible ability for PMs to completely and effortlessly conceal their PM-ness.

I'm just saying that I prefer Palemastery to be open and fluid rather than a rigid "We must all do things this way, ja!"

And it is relevant, if we're deciding to add more things to PM as a direct consequence of what all PMs have.

Bini wrote:

It does come from a graft, just as every other ability of the palemaster class that isn't the explicit summoning or creation of undead.

Libris Mortis quotes:
Darkvision (Ex): At 3rd level, the dark begins to lose its
mysteries to a pale master, who gains darkvision out to 60 feet.
If he already has darkvision, its effective distance increases by
60 feet.

The problem with a headset change is it is possible to alter the head without DM aid on a temporary to permanent basis, depending on how sneaky you've been.

Yes, I agree that there's a certain 'supremacy of fluff' biasing my opinions on the palemaster class, but grafting is to the palemaster as an innate connection to the Plane of Shadow is to shadowdancers; its abilities are drawn from that and it is the central means by which the palemaster fosters further development in these abilities. Not to mention the supremacy of certain fluff is a trend that Amia is really taken with, but that's a cynical discussion for another thread.

Bini wrote:

... grafting is to the palemaster as an innate connection to the Plane of Shadow is to shadowdancers; its abilities are drawn from that and it is the central means by which the palemaster fosters further development in these abilities.

Cite a source? The Libris Mortis doesn't say anything about grafting except as in relation to the one ability that has "Graft" in the name. The 10th-level ability explicitly says that it works by mummifying the character's flesh, not by any grafting.

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