AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I wonder about BGs and their contracts.

Well, lets say if a certain BG from a certain deity finds out there are no clerics or faithful around anymore, and decides that he wouldn't die along with the deity and then turn his back to him. Would that be wrong ? And what sort of punishment he should receive ? Perhaps perma could be enforced in this case, assuming the selected deity would send his minions to collect his soul ? Is it RP wise to change his deity instead of "burring" the toon and creating another to the desired deity ?

I don't think there is really a good blanket answer to the proposed scenario. It's very "depends".

But being the only follower of a certain deity is probably generally not a good reason to give up on them, no.

... no other followers around any more? You mean like, the character in question is the last follower of his deity anywhere on the whole planet? That's honestly just never ever going to happen.

If you just mean that the character is the last follower who happens to be hanging around the region of Amia... yeah, that's a pretty terrible reason to convert, IMHO. Seems a lot more likely that someone like that would just pack up and move somewhere else, where he can find colleagues, if anything. Or even better, tough it out and do the best he can representing his faith by himself.

I don't know. I my entire experience Rping a BG I can say that trying to endure it all alone is... sad. Especially when everyone knows and hate your toon and deity. You can't get along with another evil faction because you're not welcome as well. So it's nearly impossible to do a thing in this case. You can't present to follow another deity because a cleric would find out as well. So it's kind of a dead end sometimes.

Why would a blackguard need other blackguards?

As I understand them, blackguards are not really an embodiment of their church, so much as they are an embodiment of their own heightened will. Their own glory. The paladin who trades his code for his own wants and power, is the blackguard. No? In that regard, Bane has paladins. Umberlee might have paladins! But the blackguard is the undoing of those stronger ties to any church, he considers himself a special agent, a chosen. I would say the blackguard is defeated when he chooses defeat. When he has no more heart in him to do the will of his maker.

Now a retired blackguard, that's an interesting case. What becomes of someone who faces up to their own folly? Where do they put themselves as civilians? Do they serve another out of respect or toward a common goal? Do they wait for a chance to usurp their bullies? Maybe they adapt to their new lifestyle.

The certain blackguard of a certain deity is quite mistaken at this time if he thinks he is the only one left!

This is actually what I think about a BG: they're selfish and hunger for power. They're even capable to offer their souls for that ! So as long as a certain deity gives him power doing the bargain, it's fine.

But in my point of view a true BG would be looking for more. The certain deity would have a church or some sort of military organization. And then the BG would be looking for the top of the chain of command, looking for that position. Once it's over and the church defeated, I think a real BG wouldn't die along with it. Otherwise all his sacrifice on gaining more power would be gone. And honestly what keeps a BG alive ? The hunger !

He wouldn't accept to be defeated and would find a way to keep fighting. I doubt any BG would remain loyal to the deity, considering he had to give up his soul and knowing the fact that the deity will consume it at the end, so it's not a lovely story. It's not a lovely relationship. I also think a BG would aspire to be powerful as, or even more than, the deity.

In summary, I define a blackguard as this: a hunger that will never stop.

Well as I said it's all down to the individual. Your BG can be like that I guess, sure. But it's equally valid for a blackguard to be so zealous, so into his god that he'd willingly give up his immortal soul, and would never turn away. Your doubt as to their loyalty is pretty unfounded, because the relationship between BG and god isn't simple.

Not to mention the gods will get wise very quickly when a mortal is playing musical chairs with them.

serbiris wrote:

But it's equally valid for a blackguard to be so zealous, so into his god that he'd willingly give up his immortal soul, and would never turn away.

Well sure a LE Bg would be acting a bit zealous. I think it's part of the packet. But I prefer to believe that power, once tasted, more is required. But that would depend on how you RP your Blackguard.

And Bini, I doubt Gods talk to each other about it, really. After all, Evil Gods distaste each other. But that's up to DMs.

Bini wrote:

Not to mention the gods will get wise very quickly when a mortal is playing musical chairs with them.

Any deity would frown on this, and it may even prove the mortal in question to be one of the False I would imagine.

Whether or not they are in communication with each other is irrelevant.

Depends on the nature of your contract, too. People generally make too big a deal about conversion. It should be a relatively common occurrence in a polytheistic world where your allegiance may be determined by your life situation and where ties to this-worldly church institutions can be very loose. Not to say changing patron deities isn't a large personal decision especially for a divine caster, but the idea that gods have the time to hold a grudge whenever a follower converts just because they grow apart from each other is putting too much stock in the gods' activity. Self-serving betrayal is another matter, but that's more of the church's business to deal with. It's not like the gods of the Realms send lightning down on followers who turn their back on them. In the real, original spirit of the Realms (contrary to some TSR and WotC publications) the gods are mysterious and distant.

However, it comes down to your contract. If you promised something in exchange for power, that promise may bind you even after you have a change of heart. May, because some deals can be as simple as "I will serve you and your church in this world in exchange for power" and then the case is no different from a falling Cleric or Divine Champion. If the deal is "I pledge my soul to you in death after a life of wealth and revelry" then you can do whatever the hell you want while you live. And so on. I'm not sure which PC you're talking about, but I seem to remember formulating a slightly more restrictive deal for you though. :oops:

I was sure that there's something in one of the sourcebooks saying followers - divine casters at the very least, probably not others - who change their gods like their underwear, are generally not treated favourably. I'm not sure though and I don't have the time to look it up.

serbiris wrote:

I was sure that there's something in one of the sourcebooks saying followers - divine casters at the very least, probably not others - who change their gods like their underwear, are generally not treated favourably. I'm not sure though and I don't have the time to look it up.

Sure. The best description is probably in Faiths & Avatars, page 19.

There's a period of losing your spells and having to gain the favor of another church. Whether that church is happy to win over an experienced convert or suspicious and demand more proof than usual of your conviction surely depends on the church and the circumstances. In general, divine grace is mediated through ecclesiastical structures. If the church accepts you and makes you one of them, the god accepts you. It would probably seem, and churches would of course insist, that the church represents the god rather straightforwardly.

It really boils down to the new church and deity accepting you, not so much what the old ones think. Of course, if they can influence public opinion they may ruin your reputation and they may send assassins after you.

Blackguards and their contracts

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