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Does Amia have rules for identifying a disguise? I know TS can see through polymorph/shapechange, but can it see through a druid's thousand faces ability?

Concerning non-magical disguises though... If a character is in disguise and has their face and most of their skin wrapped up, with a different outfit on and their head covered (while emoting that the face is wrapped because I assume the shadow hood model doesn't give automatic anonymous face), and emotes that they speak in a lower voice or a muffled accent, is this considered an impenetrable disguise? I don't see how Spot or True Seeing would get past your face being wrapped up like a leper, but listen might be able to identify a voice no matter how muffled.. in that case countered by perform? (again assuming the dm presence for rolls)

What about items that the character is wearing besides what is visual IG- if you have on your magical bracers that are custom made or from a DM event/DC request/beloved, wouldn't it be metagaming to prance around in disguise while still wearing those and tell others they can't identify you by anything? Furthermore could you prance around with a unique appearance shield, helm or weapon and say "well you can't identify me by that because loads of people could have the same weapon model IG"? Should any item above +4 (or whatever can't be bought off a merchant) be used to identify someone? Assuming you have a DM who might be present to mediate such an encounter, and when the identifier examines the person closely, tells you "They are obviously holding your friend Bob's rare morning-wood bow. Either they are Bob, or they killed them."

Ultimately I'd like to know if there's any solid guidelines so in the case that someone tries very hard to be in polar opposite disguise, i.e a Sunite Priestess binds her breasts, rolls around in dirt and wraps herself/her face up like a plague victim, hennas her hair, covers teeth in chocolate, puts rags on and speaks in a raspy voice, and hobbles around in an area never frequented by their true identity, isn't immediately identified by someone going "Oh spot roll 100, I can tell that's you Barbara!"

Or could everything be disregarded like persuade/bluff rolls and I can run around in black outfits shouting in my normal voice but calling myself Bobara, until a DM intervenes?

True seeing does not see through Druid Wild Shape and Elemental Shape,Shifter shapes or The "Thousand Faces" ability for both shifter and Druid.

if the ruling has changed I am not sure.... that was maybe from like 4 years ago. it was more or less "if its a spell TS can see through it, otherwise no"

as per items held by them...I dont think DMs ever went that indepth but if they are using the same weapon and or shield (because you can see them ingame) I would say use that info IC, I know I take off my shield and common sonic longsword if I dont want people to IC be able to tell its me.

It is a matter of player etiquette and the disguised character's player sufficiently intimating that they are disguised to everyone around.

Bini wrote:

It is a matter of player etiquette and the disguised character's player sufficiently intimating that they are disguised to everyone around.

incorrect abit given the current rules (again DMs can change them but as they last stood)

"You need a DM to infiltrate an area you aren't allowed to be in normally" that was in the last year I belive, then add in the rule of "you cant force other players to diceroll...ect" it might be viewed poorly by some but thats how they are for right now.

also your statment is a double-edged sword you say they have to " sufficiently intimating that they are disguised to everyone around" maybe everyone around has to show they are sufficiently examining them and why they are tipped off to him, players would have no reason to doubt them till they do something shifty or out of place.

also how could you even put a value on that shifters are not slaping a pound of makeup on thier face and changing thier hair, they can change thier race,hight,shape,skin colour....more or less everything.

I said what I said assuming the absence of bans and other things that would mean a sticky, NPC-requiring situation should the disguise be seen through and or ineffective in the first place. Player etiquette is giving the player's of the characters that the disguise would be significant to a tip off (usually people intimately familiar with the PC) as well as being mindful of cooperative play. As per the double edged sword, well of course it is; in order to smoothly progress through disguise roleplay, everyone needs to be aware and sensitive to what the surrounding players are having their characters do and if all else fails, it never hurts to send a tell gently reminding folks of the disguise.

It may be necessary to attach a rule to infiltration (which is not the exclusive situation a disguise is used in, nor is it exclusive to disguised characters) and beneficial to seeing things played out in a fair and correct manner, however as every character has their name floating over their head and there is no limitless variety between each PC, a flat ruling can't be made in regards to how disguises are treated in an interpersonal manner.

I hate disguise RP because it's either foolproof or instantly blown. I hate True Seeing breaking magical disguises, but I also hate magical disguises that beat True Seeing. I hate the 1000 faces ability with a fiery passion.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

I hate disguise RP because it's either foolproof or instantly blown. I hate True Seeing breaking magical disguises, but I also hate magical disguises that beat True Seeing. I hate the 1000 faces ability with a fiery passion.

Not that I hate disguise rp in theory, but the practice of it. It requires a maturity and suspension of personal investment out of both sides that is unfortunately hard to come across. *aka* Pulling out the dice rather than pausing for what could be a good plot device. That being said I doubt you will find the answer you are looking for. It is pretty much left purposefully vague. Defining it mechanically begs people to make builds that can claim to be "impenetrable" or nearly so and on the other spectrum builds that can claim to see through any disguises which invites a lot of IC nightmares not to mention the nwn engine does not satisfactorily support it.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

I hate disguise RP because it's either foolproof or instantly blown. I hate True Seeing breaking magical disguises, but I also hate magical disguises that beat True Seeing. I hate the 1000 faces ability with a fiery passion.

From the person that plays "Raven"? Whaaaat?

He's being sneaky about it and throwing folks off even now. :wink:

NinjaClarinet wrote:

DerkDerkistan wrote:

I hate disguise RP because it's either foolproof or instantly blown. I hate True Seeing breaking magical disguises, but I also hate magical disguises that beat True Seeing. I hate the 1000 faces ability with a fiery passion.

From the person that plays "Raven"? Whaaaat?

Not that this information has any relevance to the thread at hand, but when has Raven ever used a disguise other than giving a false name?

Now, back on track!

Is it possible to have a widget that adds the word "disguised" to a player name. It would also allow you to remove the disguised piece. I know name changing would allow abuse, but a small add on to a name could help people rp the disguise better.

treant13 wrote:

Is it possible to have a widget that adds the word "disguised" to a player name. It would also allow you to remove the disguised piece. I know name changing would allow abuse, but a small add on to a name could help people rp the disguise better.

It has been discussed a thousand times before and the DMs said a thousand times that such would be too abusable. So I'm guessing that the policy remains. RP and pray that your fellow RPer is not a metagamer. If he metagames you, screenshot it and toss it to a nearest DM. It's that simple.

Yeah i remember the thread you are talking about. Though from what i remember reading, and I'm sorry if I'm wrong, they said it would be abused if we removed or changed the name completely. My suggestion, which may not even be possible would be too change a name like this.

Ferel becomes Disguised Ferel or Ferel Disguised....or something like that. Kind of like a title where the original name is still there foroter anyone to see.

Anyway it was just an idea.

You know disguised Ferel, there are description altering chat commands...

Which nobody* reads. The option is there to make yourself feel a little better about having no true way to pull off a disguise unless the other players agree to RP with your RP, though.

LollipopSpider wrote:

Which nobody* reads. The option is there to make yourself feel a little better about having no true way to pull off a disguise unless the other players agree to RP with your RP, though.

Hey, I perv the hell out of people's bio's! I mean, if my char is checking your char out, I wanna know what they are drooling over. I mean, what? Looking at. Indeed.

Yeah I use the description stuff since I am a shifter, but my thinking was for people you know and see often. I imagine, mostly since I do this, that people stop reading a friend's bio since they tend not to change. I often like to be shifted/disguised from friends, but they accidentally don't realize that I have changed my look since my name is there and they accidentally say hello to me. I am sure they would rp with me, but I don't always send a tell fast enough to explain my disguise and that they don't actually recognize me. Just my thoughts

If you're using a disguise in one of my plots you better have ranks in bluff.

corypx wrote:

Bini wrote:

It is a matter of player etiquette and the disguised character's player sufficiently intimating that they are disguised to everyone around.

incorrect abit given the current rules (again DMs can change them but as they last stood)

"You need a DM to infiltrate an area you aren't allowed to be in normally" that was in the last year I belive, then add in the rule of "you cant force other players to diceroll...ect" it might be viewed poorly by some but thats how they are for right now.

also your statment is a double-edged sword you say they have to " sufficiently intimating that they are disguised to everyone around" maybe everyone around has to show they are sufficiently examining them and why they are tipped off to him, players would have no reason to doubt them till they do something shifty or out of place.

Excluding infiltration by banned people, I guess what I'm wondering is, if a DM happens to intervene involving your disguise and possible identification (maybe during an event or just to help out your roleplay) what kind of rolls are expected then? If no rolls are involved, I think some base agreements would be nice to level the field, these are just some suggestions, because I don't feel like intimating disguise and changing clothes is fair enough when you still have full class/gear power, AND anonymity, over what could be a very precarious situation.

-Spellcasters could be immediately identified by their voice if they don't have silent spell. This is assuming spells are invoked in a separate magical language or chant that would be incredibly difficult to cover with an accent- it'd be like an American trying to speak Spanish with an Australian accent. This would eliminate a spellcaster using their greatest strength going to PvP town on you dressed in black clothes with a spoken lisp (but normal spellcasting) and then seeing you tomorrow, going 'what's up' and not expect a metagame-y change of attitude.

-Familiars/Animal Companions? Can't animals be as unique as people? Or could it just be "Oh, that's just a suspiciously dressed man, with a panther. My friend Bob has one too but those are popular pets."

-Disguise emotes should be spammed and just one *Is disguised* or a tell sent to a player "I'm in disguise" isn't enough, it should be *Muffled voice* "Blah blah" almost every time you speak

-Unique gear and items: This one is more difficult. Obviously if someone uses (involves taking it out in public) a custom item that says "Bob's Bauble of Blibdoolpoop" or a similar guild item that only belongs to a few people or that your character has seen them with before, could be identified. Store bought or loot-spawned gear shouldn't be identifiable, custom DC gear should be, but what about mythal crafted things? Maybe if a greater crystal or stronger has been used on them? This would even the field, as with spellcasters not being able to spam disguise spells, for melee builds to be forced to weaken themselves a bit or at least go the extra effort besides a change of clothes.

All in all this would all still be incredibly difficult because a disguised person should look REALLY suspicious doing all of this, except in places where equally suspicious people hang out I guess

.

I think a widget that puts *disguise* before someones name is a great idea. Even better would be when you use your widget on yourself & *disguise* it makes a roll on bluff or a pure int roll. Then there is a number. Now if someone suspects that you are not who you say you are they can use the same widget on you and it will do a counter roll of spot. I think something like this would help resolve a lot of issues. I am personally sick of being meta-gamed in a disguises in all honesty if i changed my name chances are people would not even think to roll lol let alone questions me.

Alternativly, with our wonderful hak, we could get crafty. Perhaps add in "Sense Motive" >.< so that there is a "Real" counter to Bluff as apposed to every cleric with high wisdom being able to see through everyone's disguise.

Blue Moon wrote:

Excluding infiltration by banned people, I guess what I'm wondering is, if a DM happens to intervene involving your disguise and possible identification (maybe during an event or just to help out your roleplay) what kind of rolls are expected then? If no rolls are involved, I think some base agreements would be nice to level the field, these are just some suggestions, because I don't feel like intimating disguise and changing clothes is fair enough when you still have full class/gear power, AND anonymity, over what could be a very precarious situation.

well see thats all stuff that has to be layed out by the DM team and discussed because as far as I know its never been posted in full depth and was allways just done at the time by the DM who's there at the time and could change from DM to DM.

but as for "infiltration" like when I listed "You need a DM to infiltrate an area you aren't allowed to be in normally" that could apply for many things not just banned from.

I use 1k faces abit diffrent, I try to blend in more then anything, I use what I call my "town friendly form" that I use to walk around town and not draw attention.

out of form I am a man in dark leather armor with a skullmask on who holds a dragon scaled shield and offen a sonic longsword, but with 1k faces(inn keeper) I look like a white man with longer hair,a tan coloured cloth shirt and green pants, I still carry my shield 90% of the time as also a IC give away I am who I am. but IC I dont hide who I am in that form, I dont muffle my voice, act any diffrent or try and deceive anyone. its just to blend in with the setting. much like a cop hiding his bullet proof vest under his shirt

if you have a redshirt on and the 200 people around you all have blue shirts on, you will stick out, your not doing anything wrong but you will be noticed....also you will die if you are sent on a away mission.

TaliaZalinNalla wrote:

I think a widget that puts *disguise* before someones name is a great idea. Even better would be when you use your widget on yourself & *disguise* it makes a roll on bluff or a pure int roll. Then there is a number.

But this eliminates the biggest necessary factor in a successful disguise- Roleplaying effort. Since the game is still much more than mechanical roles.

I totally agree. I think a combination is required, perhaps the role could have bounce applied occly between the people involved in the interaction. However "something" to base it on instead of "your voice" is the same "NECROMANCER" = PVP.. would be nice.

Like Silent said, take Bluff ranks if you want to fool people with your voice.

And really, I think disguise stuff is silly because people get upset the moment a character is suspicious of the person who is covered completely from head to toe. Think about it for a moment. You're walking down the street and some guy walks up to you and joins in your conversation but is completely covered up by layers of clothing, face covered where only his eyes are visible...Would you be okay with that?

I get that your necromancer is PvPed when out in public. But really, if he is well-known and identified, can you expect anything less? If I knew of some guy that played with dead bodies, I'd totally kick his ass whenever I saw him.

Some things are just silly.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Like Silent said, take Bluff ranks if you want to fool people with your voice.

And really, I think disguise stuff is silly because people get upset the moment a character is suspicious of the person who is covered completely from head to toe. Think about it for a moment. You're walking down the street and some guy walks up to you and joins in your conversation but is completely covered up by layers of clothing, face covered where only his eyes are visible...Would you be okay with that?

Yeah, this'd be totally suspicious but not -too- much if you do it in a place where a lot of people like that already hang out, I think. Then you'd be the one getting stabbed for asking too many questions.

Depends on context. Are you on the streets of Kohlingen or in a back alley in Shadowscape?

People aren't generally trying to infiltrate the shady backstreets of Shadowscape.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Like Silent said, take Bluff ranks if you want to fool people with your voice.

And really, I think disguise stuff is silly because people get upset the moment a character is suspicious of the person who is covered completely from head to toe. Think about it for a moment. You're walking down the street and some guy walks up to you and joins in your conversation but is completely covered up by layers of clothing, face covered where only his eyes are visible...Would you be okay with that?

I get that your necromancer is PvPed when out in public. But really, if he is well-known and identified, can you expect anything less? If I knew of some guy that played with dead bodies, I'd totally kick his ass whenever I saw him.

Some things are just silly.

yeah,...but. We are talking about a fantasy world were it is common place to were helms hoods masks and elaborate attire.

IRL if someone wore half the stuff that people do in amia i would either run away or shoot them with my 9mm lol

In the setting's defense. If you had a 4xl tall white tea and a neck with more gold chains then a jewelry store and your pants around your ankles, people in the realms should kill you too. Same goes if you're in denim or anything similar.

As for disguises... You can't force a roll, can't really tell another player you notice them if they say you don't, unless a dm is involved the disguised person makes the decision me thinks

It's not what they're wearing that matters. It's the context in how they are wearing it. I don't care how upset it makes people, if it's in character and in context, my characters will absolutely call a person out for dressing like they're allergic to the sun, disguised or not.

Would a DM mind confirming the rulings Cory cited in the second post of this thread? I recently encountered an RP situation I wasn't sure how to correctly react to. Specifically: can True Seeing pierce druidical wildshape, elemental shape, and shifter forms? Can TS pierce the thousand faces ability?

On one hand, PnP rules would indicate yes, and yes. On the other hand, wysiwyg, etc. I'm not advocating either way here, just asking for clarification.

Cory is correct. 'Natural' shapeshifting such as the examples given are not seen through. On the other hand, 'magical' shapeshifting such as Polymorph Self or Shapechange is seen through by True Seeing.

Gotcha, thanks Suney

DerkDerkistan wrote:

It's not what they're wearing that matters. It's the context in how they are wearing it. I don't care how upset it makes people, if it's in character and in context, my characters will absolutely call a person out for dressing like they're allergic to the sun, disguised or not.

Problem is that there are ALOT of people who have their characters covered head to toe anyways. If someone decided they wanted to wear a helmet and a bunch of armor to play pretend, who would ever second guess that since there are so many who do that anyways?... unless your a metagamer

A question in using shifting as a disguise:

When they shift right in front of you from one form to another, do you actually see their true form in that brief transition between forms, or not?

Also, wearing all-black and a facemask isn't as popular as you think, people cover themselves but it's pretty obvious when someone goes over-board or all-out in regards to covering themselves. Wearing everything pitch black and/or Dark grey everything (and a cover-all robe model) is a pretty blatant give away that the character is trying to disguise themselves, as far as im concerned.

JoeSkinner wrote:

DerkDerkistan wrote:

It's not what they're wearing that matters. It's the context in how they are wearing it. I don't care how upset it makes people, if it's in character and in context, my characters will absolutely call a person out for dressing like they're allergic to the sun, disguised or not.

Problem is that there are ALOT of people who have their characters covered head to toe anyways. If someone decided they wanted to wear a helmet and a bunch of armor to play pretend, who would ever second guess that since there are so many who do that anyways?... unless your a metagamer

Remember, roleplay is a cooperative experience even if you're in opposing factions.

You're just as much expecting the other person to conceed to you that you are an absolute master of disguise that doesn't leave any hint that you are not who you pretend to be as they are expecting you to conceed that they may have reason to expect that you're not who you pretend to be.

Just as someone innately calling you out without reason is metagaming, deciding someone else has absolutely no reason to call you out is also metagaming (maybe godmodding, depends on the definition of the terms this week).

It's give and take.

When in doubt, work it out BEFORE your planned deception with the players involved.
If you don't want to then get a DM involved BEFORE you attempt your subterfuge so they can marshal the situation.

Given game mechanics, we are assumed to have to stretch our minds a little on appearances due to the limited pallette and everyone already OOCly knows who you are playing due to the little green name above your head. To get around this. at times, you actually have to work with people.

Identifying a Disguise

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