Darkblade, some of your suggestions throw a lot of RP out the window. I do agree with chopping some of the areas that are never used and overhauling some of the current ones. But I'm a Designer, so I'm biased. That would mean I get work to do!

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From a design standpoint, what I'd like to see different is for some of the transport points to be closer to RP hubs.

Is there any need for the boat in Cordor to land 2 screens away from the square? Have Guston drop people off near the temple. Near the ratboat, even, at a push. It should be super duper easy to bump into people, even by accident. Like it is Kohlingen, where the tower, keep, and docks are all within close proximity, and a lot of meetings grow very naturally around the fountain.

Gondolier.

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"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

Yeah, I know about that. But that's only an option.

I'd like it if places were made so you can't help but trip over someone else whenever you pass through.

I would have to agree. It is a long walk. And while I like the idea of forcing people to walk through an area I made when they log in and spawn in Cordor, I can only imagine how confusing it is for new players to find where they're supposed to go. It's good that all the starter shops are there, but Cordor: South is big. They would need flashing neon signs pointing them that way anyway. Rather than making them go all the way across Cordor: South to Cordor: East, and then all the way to the Couriers to do the starter quest, only to have to go back to Cordor: South and search all over the huge area for what they need... I would much prefer to see an update to the quest that will be more direct for them (without seeming like it caters to adventurers, since adventurers are "ew" in Cordor).

The courier thing is nice, but it's hard to find that starter quest if you're new and don't have someone to show or tell you. If a new player doesn't have someone around, or doesn't feel comfortable yet approaching another player, they'll never know about the quest. The starter quest is exactly the kind of quest that should pop out at them immediately and send them right where they need, while also giving them an idea where the social hubs are along the way.

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I've resisted posting in here or sending in any messages to the DM Team on this topic for a few months because of what Didi was getting at. She phrases it as saying that players felt like "abused children." I'd modify that to "unwelcome guests." You have started to run this place in a far more "parental" manner, yes, but I'm not sure it matters whether anyone feels like a child. I think it's more that people have felt rejected. Locked threads and comments of "Fine. Go. You'll come back." in Off-topic leaving threads, etc. Managing requests in an anal and yet unpredictable course of action. Swapping hands up there and letting plots just fall to ruin because no other DM feels "right" to pick them up. These are all the factors that contribute to the environmental deterioration and they are all debatable on both sides. They are also factors that can be fixed, yes, but it's more than that.

The largest problem of it is that the DM Team has grown into a rut where it separates itself so completely from the playerbase on the forum-side that it's cold and unappealing, but it still integrates itself on the actual server (factions run by characters like Ulrik, special request characters being acceptable for Ainjyll and then not for others, etc) in a hypocritical and sad bias. When I tried to make my opinion on these things known before any of the "worry" about the server dying started, I got messages back from DMs and from players alike that said things such as "You don't know what you're talking about" and/or "In a few months you'll change your mind so just take what you got and leave, we don't care that much." I can honestly say the single DM who showed me any amount of legitimate care and attention was Silent2001.

Now, I'm not crying for attention to my past complaint because I want it changed. I'm fine, I promise. I'm long over it on a personal level. Hardly anyone even knows what it is besides those of you who were and are DMs and can read certain forums so please, let's not get into any specifics in public. My point is that I think it happened to others before me and others after me. I think it will still happen to people if things don't change. I can only try to explain what it is that I see wrong with this place lately and what other people are putting in much nicer terms. I played on this server for years. I dedicated time and energy and love to it, to all of you, and what I felt as if I received the one time I let my feelings get hurt was rejection. Rejection is what the DM Team has doled out time and time again lately, in a fashion far too unsuitable for me to think it's solely the players' faults or anyone else's.

Furthermore, once I got rejected by the Team, I realized I felt rejected by the community in general. There was little to no process for me to make people see how unfair my situation was and felt without being a dramatic pain in the ass. Didi says it's nice that these threads can occur without flaming happening and she's right! Yet... since noone flames quite as much and things get locked in seconds and deleted, when someone is wronged or something does happen that deserves to get talked about... it doesn't. It gets deleted. That is all of the players' responsibility as much as the DMs. You have let things become so calm and complacent that it got... well... boring. And as much as you didn't care about my one problem, I definitely didn't care enough about a game to stress myself out to get you all to realize you were in the wrong as a whole. I also didn't even have the power.

I don't think any of you are bad Dungeon Masters. I don't even think it's just a DM problem. Players have been afraid to stir up drama or have latched onto DM PCs and whatnot and that fear is their problem. I played here for years because I loved it and I've been forum-stalking and hopping in game every now and then because I still love people here. What has happened is that DMs and players alike have created a disappointing trend for yourselves here and it's evidenced by how quickly DMs have been dying out and how players have been leaving. They died out and people left before, yes, but it's been happening quicker and quicker and quicker. The current environment has taken the fun out of the game for us, and for you, and therefore for much of the Amian world in general.

What I think needs to be revamped is a whole process. I think players need more power and more freedom, I think DMs need to realize they volunteered and that criticism for a volunteer job is the same as criticism for a regular job. You chose that position, and whether or not you're getting paid, you could've said "No." and you didn't. Players have accepted that you can do almost whatever you want up there and trusted the behind the scenes and that's sad, because it's kept the balancing of power quite lopsided. I think all of you have the power to change it, DMs and players together, but only if everyone starts to care a little bit more about their personal responsibility in each equation and the balancing of power to all degrees. I didn't ever speak out about what the Team did that was wrong to me, so I am now, and I hope that some of you realize it is truly an issue that you might want to face and reconsider.

+1000 Every single word.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

I think Estara has explained the problem better than anyone else so far, personally.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

I have to say I am utterly confused by everything Estara posted. I lurk all over these forums. All over. I lurk in GD, in IA, in the town/area forums. Requests? I freaking love lurking the Request forum (disclaimer: I use it mainly to scope out other requests so I have a better idea on how to get a good one lined up, formatting and RP and all). The only thing I do not lurk is the faction/hidden ones, of course.

I know that some people will assume 'oh, hey, he's brown-nosing the Team', but that's hardly the case. I'm just utterly confused as to where all of this has happened. I've seen a few things that have made me go 'wtf?', but by and large I have not seen the sort of things in that post.

Or perhaps I've merely missed these things? Or maybe it's the players in question overreacting (I've watched examples of that)? Who knows.


fake edit: I'm not saying things need to change, just that the 'players are the red-headed stepchilds' attitude is amazing me. I have felt that the DMs, since I joined, have been doing a good job. But maybe that's just me.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

You have missed a lot of things then, apparently. Or maybe we three have missed all of the good things that have happened.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

There is merit to it, Naivatkal, and the DM Team is more aware of it than even Estara is. Some of your confusion may stem from the fact that unlike 2 of those agreeing there, you haven't had a great deal of your own personal time and effort disregarded seemingly out of hand.

To be honest, that is what I was leaning towards. I wouldn't write off what anyone said, so I just wanted to voice my confusion. Heck, it could have been stuff that happened before my time here (I know a lot of shady/questionable stuff happened in years past).

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

We have 50 people on A today. Quite nice, in addition to active DMs today.

For the record, I haven't had any of my time or effort disregarded, and yet I find myself agreeing with Estara as to this being one of the reasons for a low player count. My wife(Didi) and I left the server in 2010 and have only recently returned. The main reason for this, plain and simple, was Tormak's treatment of not only ourselves but others on the forums. Now, don't get me wrong, we both know he does/did a ton of fantastic work behind the scenes, but his PR skills left a lot to desired. I will also say his attitude on the forums seems to have changed recently and whether this is due to growing up and maturing or another reason,I do not know, but it seems to have changed for the better.

Regardless of this change, there did seem to be a double standard concerning forum behavior, one for him and one for the playerbase. PR is important for any product and Amia is a product. Bad PR means the product suffers but good PR makes the product more appealing. I have been banned from the forums twice in the past for my behavior and rightly so. I do not have an axe to grind, I am an adult and accept responsibility for my actions and words; however, when one side of the divide seemingly gets away with things others are banned for then there is a problem.

I cannot speak for others, but for me this double standard created the divide Estara spoke about in his post. It wasn't having my hand slapped and told no as Yoss seems to be insinuating in the above post. In the end perhaps a warmer reception from the DM team is needed. Have those good at PR speak on the forums using their skills effectively. Those that aren't shouldn't, or if they do, be subject to the same standards as playerbase.


On another note I agree with Darkblade that the server is far to big for the player count. It is a beautiful server and I know a ton of good work has gone into development/design and do not wish to take this away from all those who have spent days and days of their time on it. At the moment, though, the server seems like a mansion with no furnishings. What is the point if a cottage would suffice? Things can always be reinstated later if the player count rises. Having a good rp reason for stripping away parts of the server seems irrelevant as well if it brings players into closer proximity. If one is needed, rip off Dragonlance and have the gods toss a firery mountain down on the island.

I'm being brief again, as there is a baby sleeping on my chest and I am typing one handed. I will explain more later.

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"Ain't it like most people, I'm no different, love to talk on things we don't know about." The Avett Brothers

I think the message about moderation and PR has gone through before this topic. At least personally I've felt like things have gradually improved. The biggest problem on Amia is inactivity (which hasn't struck me as particularly severe since I came back properly), and that's something that changes more slowly than any U-turns the active playerbase, DMs or designers might pull to remedy the situation. If the relative inactivity is due to the kind of problems brought up above (and I don't feel strongly either way; it probably played a part) then that is not to be taken as a sign the situation is still bad; we're simply paying for previous decisions on a long scale.

The point is, I wouldn't be too worried and beat myself over what we're doing wrong now. It could be that we're just experiencing the causes of something that happened six months ago, or more. And I'd also keep in mind that while we're analyzing why Amia is so dead, I'm having my hands full RPing with everyone who wants my time or who I want to have a word with. I've personally been super busy whenever I log on (probably because I avoid the shitty times and stick my nose into everything, granted), so this topic is somewhat misleading. Even if it's useful and healthy, too.

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About bureaucracy, I'm gonna take a chance and bring a specific case here to illustrate the point: there's a request asking for a job log reset for a druid who realized too late that druids don't use or make metal armor. This should not be the kind of request you even bring to the forums, and it's going too far to ask to see RP about it. It's a quick fix motivated by wanting to role-play better by the standards expected on Amia. Moreover, the guy seems to have registered on this forum just to make that request. A quick and fair handling of a simple request would make a better first impression. A more efficient request process where the DM who first sees the request makes his call and takes responsibility without voting on something trivial for days might be prudent. Appoint two or three DMs who review the request policies and make daily approval rounds for standard stuff that's basically maintenance (and possibly for Plat. Coin races, if you have a lore buff you trust).

If you can't trust your DMs to make the right calls about job log resets in game, how can you trust your DMs to run world-changing plots? Some of the bureaucracy needs to be put into perspective.

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The reason job logs are requests now is simple - previously we were doing it on the fly and then asking others to write up requests for it. Now everyone is equal, everyone writes a request. I also think the more DMs checking the request forum the better. Job requests only usually take around 3 approvals before they're done in game anyway, two if you're asking a DM upstairs to check it and give his thumb up or down so it can be done.

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I don't know why you even want three approvals for that. One from a requests-appointed DM who monitors the standards should be enough. I'll take some trivial inequality over slow and stiff action any day. DMs are capable of making the determination in-game and asking for a request if it's something really drastic like a mastersmith asking to become a famed painter. I can imagine it's pretty frustrating to wait a week for DMs first to respond and then finally find someone to observe your RP in game and possibly get it done.

Yes, there are no doubt good reasons. But forum bureaucracy seems a common complaint and it's become heavier all the time. It may be beneficial to consider alternatives.

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Self-rebuilds used to be accessible with one DM.
A slight alignment change was accessible with one DM.
Job Log reset was accessible with one DM.

Then it gradually changed.

Free rebuilds came out. Everyone got rebuilt without RP at the beginning, because it was not really regulated. You didn't even need to post on the forums.

Then the DM's realized alot of people wanted rebuilds and they didn't want to spend all of their time on the client doing chores, so they decided to make it a request. People still wanted to self-rebuild but since that was the same chore, it now fell under the same request.

In the beginning, there was not a steep requirement for these requests to go through, you just need to provide some RP and it couldn't be ALOT different than your current setup for a free rebuild.

During this period, the DM team revised alignment changes and job log changes as well, creating forum post requirements for these as well, and these would ramp up in the same fashion.

Then the DM team decided to basically cut down severely on rebuilds since it still consumed alot of their in-client time. This meant that you could only free-rebuild if you were changing very little. Self-rebuilds/and even some free-rebuilds, however, were so inconsistent, some people who wrote one sentence and changing 6+ feats, stats, etc were rebuilt, and some people who actually spent the time to write RP, keep things mainly consistent and true to their character, were forced to wait for 3½ weeks before a decision, which sometimes was a "no". This happened across the board. I don't want to say it's favoritism, because people hate that word, so I'll just mark it down as inconsistent.

Then, after a while, people decided that you shouldn't be allowed to de-level either, so they required you to post on the forums to have XP subtracted from you, since it was sort of like rebuilding in a way.

Now, here we are. I can't say these are the only three things that feel so inconsistent. If anyone needs me to cite threads, I can, they're not in the DM forums or anything. I personally was one of the people who's build was utterly annihilated by all of the balance changes and was just trying to have my character not suck again, but that was a rather tedious and lengthy process which involved me begging for it, essentially. I tried to understand the approval system, and how many DM's are needed to approve something but it seems to change on the fly. I am over it now, but I feel like this is something that's so obvious that it needs to be said, but everyone's too busy ignoring it.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

I don't know anything about rebuilds, deleveling, job system changes, etc, but I do know I noticed a drastic change in philosophy from a little before the time I left the server until recently. It went from being quite liberal to extremely right wing in not only its bureaucratic approach but its rp as well.

In my opinion this began around the time the whole "permadeath"/"consequences for rp actions" discussions started. People complained how the game wasn't real enough, lore wasn't correct enough, things weren't serious enough. I firmly believe this is one of the major factors for the decline. When a game becomes too serious, too stressful, too bureaucratic in every aspect it stops being fun and people play games to have fun, not mimic reality.

Don't get me wrong, I believe there to be a fine line between the hardliners and the liberals but for a time it swayed too far to the right and with such those who played the game occasionally or didn't take it quite as seriously as the "right wingers" lost interest and left. What was left was a small core of hardliners who desired to remain.

If Amia wishes it's player count to increase once again don't be tighter than a gnats arse. Loosen the reins a bit and let things slide, don't always ask for picture perfect rp reasons for changes, don't ask people to write 1000 word essays for requests. Make the game a little more middle of the road and you will eventually find the player count rising daily.

Again this is just one persons opinion.

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"Ain't it like most people, I'm no different, love to talk on things we don't know about." The Avett Brothers

I am fairly certain that is Amia returns to the days of no special race requests, a disregard for lore, and rebuilds being done willy-nilly then I won't be the only person to leave Amia. It would likely kill the server completely.

I have found the request process quite simplistic in general, though I will say that the lack of direction on the approval process is inadequate. As I said before I lurk the Request forum as well, and I have noticed it be said many times that 'there is no set number of DMs to approve something'. That is all well and good, but when only two DMs have chimed in and the request gets lagged for weeks waiting on more to reply, I can understand the frustration then. Perhaps appointing a few DMs to specifically do the request forum, with the caveat that they can request additional input from other DMs if needed, would be a good idea.

But by and large, the request process needs to be there. Otherwise, you will get the God awful bullshit that the server used to have (see first paragraph).

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I and no one else ever said this. Please don't take things to the extreme to prove a point. I was talking about finding the "sweet spot" between right and left, not some "willy-nilly" shift all the way to the far left. Furthermore, the small group of players who remained obviously enjoy the hardline, but this discussion is about what happened to Amia, not Amia is still awesome. This thread wouldn't have been started if there weren't issues which need to be addressed. Hardline, right wing is fine if you want to rp with 10 people all the time and not a full server like it used to be at all times of the day.

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"Ain't it like most people, I'm no different, love to talk on things we don't know about." The Avett Brothers

The same thing goes for Wiltun:

1. Trigger happy guards
2. No helmets
3. No weapons
4. No mage staves
5. No shields
6. No spells
7. No sneaking
8. No trade postings without permission
9. No RP




I know I enjoyed my fetch quests with Valkin. Not only that they give a purpose to my character, but I also got to put some effort into it, and therefore, the rewards were sweeter.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Login: Narkudauman

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Unfortunately, like Cordor that has IC reasoning. Adventurers figuratively pissed all over Wiltun and the Jarl had enough of it. Equally unfortunately, Wiltun is even less understanding than Cordor.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

This still makes me laugh. I can't remember who told me somebody totally killed a guy with his shield in Wiltun, but there you go.

All of that stuff can be fixed by players by taking in character action, though. And I believe it was all implimented by player action, in response to (admittedly retarded) player action.

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

Well it seems that the Jarl finally got his peace.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Login: Narkudauman

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Some of the most popular servers right now are far tighter than Amia. We're quite liberal when compared to Ravenloft/FRC. I can understand the issues people have with the rebuild requests/job logs/ etc, etc but I think the process (while not perfect) works. The amount of roleplay we need to see depends on the changes, we don't have a baseline to measure each request against so we deal with them on an individual basis - for the most part independent of other players requests. That said; if there is an issue with a request we do, for the most part, attempt to work with the player to hammer it out into something we can approve. That doesn't mean every request ever written will be approved because sometimes what's being requested might be too farfetched, powerful or unviable for the server story.

That said the afformentioned servers would have you write requests for your PRCs/Planar Race and I don't think they offer rebuilds at all yet they still clock 50+ players quite frequently so I doubt the downturn in activity is heavily reliant on the request forum.

As for Wiltun; theres nothing stopping you roleplaying there at all. This is all IC and should be dealt with IC. Don't like the rules? Break them (with DM supervision) and subvert the rule of law. If you want to run the risk of lasting consequences of course.

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Eh. There's a difference between adventurers walking and interacting at a rambunctious level(and not -really- disturbing anything in a violent manner) and a bunch of people setting out to cause trouble. My issue with Wiltun is the fact that it basically shifted from a decent place to RP freely to a place that is needlessly draconian(small offenses with stupidly harsh punishment). IC stuff, I understand. I think EVERYONE understands that. What people probably don't like is that it feels like it inhibits RP in such a way that favors the law enforcement rather than creating room for RP(not talking about criminal RP, either) that doesn't end in the death of your character, jail time, banishment, accusation of metagaming the guards or NPCs over something silly and a myriad of other things that are demoralizing to playing any type of character. That's part of my problem with RPing in Cordor, too. I can't stand hearing about someone getting sent a tell saying 'lol screnshotted hav fon wit dms' for every small action that a player could deal with(Darkness to get away from PCs after being caught spying, for example).

The thing is - I don't. My PC has better things to do. And the majority of the server has better things to do than trying to break the laws (and to what ends?), and have their characters jeopardized by deus ex-machina also known as the NPC guards. I don't like it - therefore I do not go in there - therefore I do not produce any RP. It's a sad, but a true formula that is being applied to Wiltun nowdays.

And hereby I am not trying to flame Wiltun. I am trying to point out that whatever settlement brings a bunch of similar, draconic and unneeded laws eventually ends up the same. As someone stated above, we are here to run away from reality and have some fun, not to emulate an identical copy of the RL. What I am trying to say is: If its not working and not producing fun, change it.

edit: Also what Caldera3 said.

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But that is because people go to those servers expecting that. People used to come to Amia because it was marginally easier than the others. The change has just made it go somewhere in the middle, without any proper place amongst the other servers. If people want an easy fun time, they go elsewhere. If people want a realistic hardcore style, they probably go to PoTM. Not Amia. People want certain things from servers, and Amia currently isn't providing any of them, and those people who joined because they wanted a certain thing from it, the server then changed, and no longer provided that for them, thus they went elsewhere, most likely.

I also see no purpose of changing into something more like Ravenloft or any other server. If people wanted to play a server like that, then they would go to that. Amia used to have it's own style, but I feel it maybe losing it, and thus losing it's players.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

The thing is with Wiltun, it used to be a place that everyone could go, if they were banned from everywhere else. An RP hub for the shadier types mostly. People who didn't want to be known, or have their faces seen. You removed the ability to do that, so thus everyone left, and now all of the PC guards are pointless too.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

+1 this goes all the way back to the identity crisis the server has.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Absolutely. You got to the core of the problem.

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I just sort of find it funny that the people commenting about the state of things in Wiltun are in fact people who do not frequent the place. I have been in Wiltun with my PC for years now, prior to the guard faction getting started during my hiatus and after when I took control of it. And the fact of the matter is, no matter how much I disagree with the state of things there "law" wise and would love to see some of those smaller nit-picky things taken away completely, it is IC and has to be handled that way.

You can sit here and complain on the forums all you want, but there are some of us who are trying to change things on a character to character to even NPC level so it can turn around. Pople got banned because people seriously act fucking retarded sometimes. Come and be shady, but when some great rp with a kidnapping attempt is made, or consideration for a never-ending fear of Luskan spies is prevalent, please forgive us or the NPC Jarl (DM) for reacting in a realistic way by refusing to give any of you the privilege to come and go as you please? Complain all you want, but it is rooted in the way a Barbaric Northman society would react to things like that happening. End of story.

If you understood the lore and the history behind a region like Ruathym and specifically Wiltun, you might wonder why it isn't as draconian as it could be. But then again, you would have to try understanding instead of complaining.

(Sorry if this seems like a RAWR rant, but seriously. People put a lot of time into the place and we try to make things happen and bring some RP to Wiltun, despite some of the things stacked against us and discussions like this with all complaints and no actionable suggestions are downright stupid. If your PC has better things to do, then more power to you. Follow your PC's lead.)

Wiltun had a vision to be just that when Disco first created it and I first ran it as DM. I ignored desires to post public laws because what eventually I foresaw happening: one becomes two becomes four becomes more. My IC reasoning was a stubborn and cruel jarl who didn't care to warn foreigners about right and wrong before they committed it. He just eanted an excuse to haul them in and find out if they are Luskan or terrify them for his ego or just prove that he is the only abiding legislation: his will alone is law.

IC reasoning after I stopped there made the changes, but I cannot help but feel that I might have discreetly struggled to invent eays to maintain Wiltun as that frontier, law questionable territory players had wanted.

I loved that about Wiltun when I first got involved, Yoss, but when a faction is started for the sole purpose of enforcing laws, you run into two problems. 1. You have to have laws to enforce. 2. If you cannot explain those laws then you get people crying because they are being punsihed by "cruel and corrupt" guards. This is what really fucked up Wiltun's rep when the Wardens first started because they were ruthless as Wiltun would demand.

It's a tough situation all around.

(Side Note: This is why I'm slowly shifting them away from a Guard Faction.)

I know. There is a middle ground there, but Wiltun is a good exampke of why Izzt's dream world of pure playerdom fails. Most players do not think in the terms I described, but in making their own beds and sleeping there.

Pretty sure that was me, because I had to lie and make up a stupid reason for the law too.

Yeah I know you understand. My only wish is that others would take a moment to consider every side of it and know that some of us are trying to make it fun again. It's hard to do, but I'd like Wiltun to become even better than it was before.

Silent: I don't refute those points, but I think you could do with more consistency, clearer (publicly available) standards and a more streamlined process. Getting badgered for RP on the forums on things trivially simple to handle is annoying, even to a by-stander. Have you considered appointing requests-DMs again, the the responsibility and authority to approve requests faster? That would also serve the purpose of consistency as the same person would oversee all requests and keep in mind previous decisions.

I don't think special race requests and such should be easier to get through, mind you. My two issues are the inconsistency/heavy bureaucracy (you should have one downside, not both), and sliding towards more faceless control.

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You should maybe also take a moment to consider that people, such as myself, have already tried to make changes IC. I did, but was ignored completely and had no explanation as to why. I was told to go meet with Wiltun, and then that never happened. So what is the point if every time you go to try do something IC about it, and you are ignored?

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

Wiltun and Cordor are two of the places I've only really seen RP in, Wiltun is interesting but it always felt Hostile to me as a player, then I came up with this ridiculously elaborate plot to assasinate the Jarl and burn Wiltun to the ground, then all the "Then what happens? what happens during it?" questions popped into my head

I was more scared of the NPC guards and the Player Wiltun guards there, so I never even started trying to disrupt the status quo, that and I dident want to have to make a new character, level him to 30 to even have a chance vs the Wiltun Crew (NPC's included).

Same thing went for Cordor, huge elaborate Plot to be set in motion, then everything blockading that path to glorious Island domination (and re-buildingness of these lovely area's)

Then I hit another problem with I cant play evil at all..

It would have been nice to PM a DM to try convert them to the elaborate destruction plot side, but being too scared as a player to even attempt something, and wanting to not go through the grind to be able to even try start it.

It would have been nice to see these elaborate maniacle plots I had through but I'm still stumped on how I get it started, obviously DM side first detailing the plot outlines, but where from then?

really as a player the only things I've had problems with have been
-Fear of horrific de-railment and massive failure
-no idea where to get this started
-fear of posting this post
-Fear of playerbase hatred for burning their favorite water coolers
-horrible Grind to 30 to join in most DM events (surviving in events) and playing with the fabulous crew who already hit 30.

(ps. I dont have a 30 on the server yet >_> Its not that its hard, more Time consuming)
(pss. Finally worked up my nerve to type this up and post it)

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Flambom The Evil

Playing as: Meesh The Battlemage

When Caraigh was under player control, aka the four or five month Barony time, the primarily player-run style of it worked rather well. We had a lot of rp there and it was tons of fun. The conflicts between players of the banites, cultists and crown were by ooc standards very low. The only time the disputes got big were during and after the plots. Granted, it was a short time, but it worked well. Partly because I made sure to also chat with the bad guys to make sure we got along and all had fun. I think the cultists of orcus enjoyed the conflict we had during that time and with me after it.

I know for a fact that my PC could very easily meet with yours, but I can only speak for me and my character's actions. Not a DM's. I also never said that your concerns has no merit, just to consider that we have concerns of our own.

@gorgometh

The fact that I'm not even frequenting the area (for the reasons stated) and I'm still pointing out its mistake is yet another proof that I'm not just randomly trolling and flaming a certain settlement, but instead I'm trying to explain why's it now a no-RP area, and how it was reflected upon the server. If we are all open and honest here, and trying to find the best solution, then some examples must be set. I can say the same thing about Bendir Dale, when that "no lingering outside the gate" law kicked in. Let people have fun. We want conflict, we want arguments, we want curses and blades flying about, we want good vs evil. We do not want every popular RP area to be filled with godlike NPC guards which will ban the fun.

If I may quote myself from exactly a year ago when the laws kicked, as I pm'd a certain DM:



I was trying to make this server a better place a year ago, and I'm trying to make it now. Therefore, back to my previous point: If it was fun and got changed, and is now not fun, change it back. Not only Wiltun, everywhere. If I learned something while being a DM myself in PnP I learned that nothing will go as predicted unless you force it. The moment you start forcing the players to do what you want them to do, that very moment the game will start falling apart. You must -always- leave some room for improvisation. Shape the situation on the go, always trying to make it fun for your players.

edit: also forgive me if I am not being subtle enough, but I believe that being shy and subtle got us into this whole pickle.

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I'll have to +1 this. It was fun for the most part when DM's were not involved, except for most of Mahtan's events. I found them fun.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

Caraigh was clearly an exception to the standard, then. Also I would have been mortifies as an evil or good pkayer and the nemesis talked to me OOC to "reassure me everything was cool" or some shit like that.

I think simply chatting with one another ooc helps diffuse some of the tensions that intense conflict rp simply generates. It also helps to remove any misunderstandings before any feelings are bruised and simply creates trust that players deal with each other in good faith and fairly, even if their characters most certainly do not. Between certain people it helps, between others it is not needed.

Barak Runedar and Winya Ravena (though veto reserved) are mostly playerrun and work well too.

@Dead

I completely get that you are trying to explain a real problem, and maybe I have not been clear about it, but I agree with you 100% when it come to the problem that persists not only in Wiltun but the server in general. I think your observations are valid and there are some definite changes that need to be made to fix some of the things that went wrong.

I just want you to see that I'm trying to speak from my perspective concerning things that I can readily change with my PC and actions. For me, that is limited to Wiltun. I hate that you got ignored and that it happened a year ago and what I hate more is tat people's frustrations just sort of festered and got worse over time and then we inherit the problems later on.

I don't think you should be subtle or anything. I'm going to speak my opinion and I expect others to do the same. My opinion on Wiltun alone, my area of expertise, is that we've tried to leave some "room for improvisation" as you put it, and I think it describes what is needed pretty well. Could there be more? Sure! Do I want there to be more for not only myself but for others? You better believe it! In my limited sphere of control, am I going to try and change it to make it fun again? Yes, but I'm only one person and just a player. And I seriously have to say that Nivo, as the Wiltun DM, has been doing some good work as well. I know that the Wiltun folks will keep trying as will the DM's for the whole server.

I've never actually felt a need to grind to 30. My main character who's had pivitol rolls in a few DM plots and survived events -finally- flipped over to 28 last time I played him. He started making a difference in stories at about level 14 (sometime before I could cast 9th level spells)

My level 15 has also seen some DM event action.

It's all about finding a way to contribute at what level you're on, that hack and slash is not the end all be all. Even for that you can contribute as a supporting character. Buff and bandage, scout while invisible or stealthed, RP your way out of situations (DM's love this.) Use your character abilities in ways the DM isn't expecting.

As far as your bits of not wainting to grind to 30 to start a plot on overthrowing Cordor, well, that's where RP comes in. There are dozens of disgruntled characters out there (some 30) you just need to involve others on your plot, get them to provide the muscle where you can't.

One person isn't likely going to take down a city completly solo anyway.

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