Just to reiterate my point on the subject. Atheism is not a proper and rational concept in the Forgotten realms. You can call it an intellectual exercise if you want, but it isn't that. You're just applying real world terminology to a fictional setting where it isn't actually applicable. They can't possibly deny that the entity in question actually exists when a pissed off cleric starts summoning acid rain in Talos' name for you saying that sort of thing. They exist. That and they were on the Material Plane causing all sorts problems during the Time of Troubles.

It is extremely clear when gods come ascend or start existing because of their scale of power and the fact that they grant wishes. No amount of frills and philosophy could ever really change that. It's just an attempt to apply a real world "atheist" rational to a fictional setting where it isn't applicable. I'm an atheist in real life. If a god started giving people spells in real life, that would change really fast.


Now, what I'm curious about is say... This scenario.

Say some level 30 wizard starts subjugating Kobolds and other demi-humans and making them bring him sacrifices. Does he get power from them? If he gets enough of them, would become a demi-power unto himself?


That's the sort of thing I'm more interested in hearing. Because that would be fodder for intellectual discussion and philosophy. Things like "does this question the legitimacy of the gods" or "when does mortal life end and godly power begin." And things like that.

And it could be argued that a wizard can grant prayers in a subjective sense. He would just have to be far more involved in the process. For example, stinky the Kobold prays for his god to smite smelly the smeller. And then the annoyed wizard tosses a hellball at him. Smited. Is that a legitimate answering of someone's prayer?

Granted, they don't have the spatial awareness that a god would have, but then you could simply argue that they're a lesser power. Something below a demi power even. I'm sure there might be applicable examples of this somewhere in Forgotten Realms canon, but I'm not nearly as strong with the lore of the world as I'd like.

That's just me offering an interesting possibility as well as a way if possibly legitimizing the idea of "atheism" in some very loose terms in the Forgotten Realms, even if I entirely disagree with it. But atheism in our context just doesn't work.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

I just realized that there is a major consequence of my take on disbelieving Ao that does not exist in real life...

In real life atheism tends to be fairly optimistic and a way to escape religious fatalism. Death is not particularry scary.

In FR however... afterlife IS observable and predictable reality, and for an atheist it would be mind-shatteringly horrifying. If you stick to the truth and openly oppose the tyranny of the gods, they will catch your soul when you die and put you to the Wall of the Faithless for all of eternity. If you however hide your doubts, you will end up in the personal playground of one o these tyrants and will be forced to serve him as he slowly feeds off you until nothing remains. Death in FR is incredibly frightening and threatening to an atheist, which makes rational reasoning about disbelief extremely difficult. That is some fuel for extreme pessimism and depression.

This would all make for an extremely interesting story. Say, in a wizard who learns too much and decides that the horrors of death are simply not an option... Liches, liches everywhere! Personal war against the order of the entire infinite multiverse is still preferable to the horrors of afterlife.

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

This is actually quite valid and something to think about. Nevertheless, such "hardcore conspiration theories" could be applied on anyone and anything. And I may be wrong here, but it smells heavily of RL thinking - you'd have to play an exceptionally "scholary" type to have such thoughts, or someone extremely paranoid / schizophrenic.

Look at it from the point of view of your character. You are living in a world where magic exists. Both arcane and divine. Everyone knows that "divine" magic comes from "Gods". You live with it, you grow up with it. You break your knee, papa takes you to a priest, he waggles his finger above your wound and it's healed. Or, a priest is ambushed and you see how he smashes bandits with a prayer and a bolt from the sky. So you know Gods exists.

Now, the point is not to ponder "what" Gods are, but "if" they exist. If you are living in a world where divine magic is used on daily basis, where Gods walked the earth, you have to be aware of their existance. If you care about them or not is a different question. But they exists. If you doubt their existance, then I have to repeat myself - you either play a scholar, extremely scholary one, or a paranoic.



A bold statement. I always loved the idea of divine spell failure. This is exactly why - I do not say that clerics must be a fanatical dimwits, who blindly do as dogma says. Not at all. Doubts and thinking about your faith are natural sometimes. Nevertheless, should you pray for an aid and gain it, and then doubt the origins of the aid, that would seem not only ungrateful, but almost treacherous. And no matter what Gods are, none of them is looking upon a lack of faith and dedication cheerfully.

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Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)

I apologize for not fully reading the topic, my reaction was more a kneejerk then anything properly thought out.

I think the more important question is, which high school is teaching Foucault? Follow up: are they accepting resumes?



I actually made this character a while ago and never got around to finishing him. It's a pretty reasonable reaction, actually, when you consider what a giant dick Kelemvor is.

That said, what's interesting is how observable fact and faith have reversed positions in a fantasy world where magic is an observable phenomenon. I should say, though, that the use of the word 'empiricism' is not accurate, because it refers to a paradigm in which truth is discernible through reason and experimentation, which definitely doesn't apply to 'truth' in Forgotten Realms. The gods tell you the truth, the angels and devils and demons tell you the truth, priests tell you the truth. There's no need to experiment or delve into investigation because it's all been mapped out by their great omnisciences.

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You dare mock the Tibbly one, catcherer of drowses?

I am not in full possession of my faculties at the moment, since it's the opening festival day and all, but I'd just like to point out one thing: the question of the gods' existence is inseparable from the question of their nature. What the gods are and whether "gods" really exist are not two separate matters. The question "do gods really exist" is connected to the question "what is god." You may first think blue bunnies exist, but then you realize you're actually wearing tinted glasses and the bunnies are brown. That makes you an abluebunnyist. You believe blue bunnies don't exist, but that doesn't mean you don't acknowledge the existence of the brown bunnies that made you believe in blue bunnies. Most people have a very clear idea of what constitutes a "god" and if it turns out the creatures we're accustomed to calling gods possibly don't deserve that title, then you're suddenly an atheist. It doesn't mean you believe there was nothing that caused the phenomena in the first place, it means you don't think they don't fill the criteria of godhood.

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