AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

As the title implies, have seafaring dwarves ever been mentioned in canon lore? Or do they hate water because of their stone fetishes?

I'm not sure, but I do know that there was a character some years back who was a Dwarven Pirate ICly. Whether that is lore appropriate, I do not know.

Well, canon or not, Barak Runedar just got itself a sailor

An angel in heaven just got it's wings daddy!!

Dwarves, in general, dislike travel/work by sea, yep. It's not impossible to find a working by sea, it's just not common. Dwarves are a people of stone and earth. If your talking flying, swimming or anything else that takes their feet of solid earth or stone or just anything solid for a long period of time, your going to seriously turn most Dwarves off.

In my mind Dwarves would make very good sailors as they inheritly have many of the qualities needed for that profession; unmatched fortitude, the ability of singleminded concentration on the task ahed, stout hearts, a knack for smooth teamwork, great craftmansship, and eyes for details. Plus, what is a better way to trade your goods than by sea, and dwarves are skilled traders too, no?

QPR wrote:

In my mind Dwarves would make very good sailors as they inheritly have many of the qualities needed for that profession; unmatched fortitude, the ability of singleminded concentration on the task ahed, stout hearts, a knack for smooth teamwork, great craftmansship, and eyes for details. Plus, what is a better way to trade your goods than by sea, and dwarves are skilled traders too, no?

This is all true, I believe the previous posters said that it was uncommon to find dwarven sailors, not impossible, which would mean that perhaps 1-2% of the race choose such a profession. Also, most dwarven holds are some distance from the sea, and would trade with the towns by the sea who would then carry it on.

I am sure that dwarven communities near the sea would have a few sailors for trade and perhaps defense, after all, no point in being a sailor if you live in a mountain miles away from the sea. I can imagine Dwarven made ships being somewhat like the Korean Turtleships. Slow, and covered in metal.

Ofcourse, I have no doubt that they are, so far, quite uncommon. To me it looks like new ground to be broken, with no small oppertunities as teh current dwarven settlement on Amia has it's own port. As for ships, I would imagine that dwarves build what is practical; Korean turtle ships are not practical for anything else than warfare, and then only very close to the coast. Both Carracks and Longships would suit them i think, as both allow for "land battles" on sea.

I do find it odd that the dwarven stereotype of hating water travel has been allowed to live for so long.

QPR wrote:

I do find it odd that the dwarven stereotype of hating water travel has been allowed to live for so long.

I don't.

You have to look a bit deeper to understand the reasoning of the stereotypical dwarven aversion to water travel. Like mentioned above, most dwarven settlements are founded far from sea. Though that in iteself may not justify the aversion to water travel (which also entails travelling on lakes and rivers, of course), it can't be discounted.

I think a far better reasoning than simply not living near the sea would be the favored classes of dwarves, those being Fighter, Cleric, and Dwarven Defender (the ones most commonly taken by the "adventuring" class, anyway). What do they all have in common? Heavy armor. Until the time of the Thunder Blessing, dwarven mages were nigh-unheard of because up until that point, most dwarves feared or distrusted arcane magic. Druids are near non-existent. Rangers might be a bit more common (the ones who go out hunting for the clan's food; subterranean rangers who explore new caverns and their environs, proclaiming them "safe" to work in for others; and so on), but only in limited capacity. Rogues can be found in dwarven communities, but they're also a minority class.

So, what we're left with is an adventuring class that largely consists of the type of dwarf whose adventuring skills espouse the use of heavy armor. (Keep in mind that all dwarves who aren't NPCs on Amia are from the adventuring class.) And as we all know, heavy armor + water travel = a recipe for potential disaster, as it's very difficult (some might say impossible!) to swim while wearing heavy armor. Even if the dwarf in question wasn't wearing his armor while travelling on the water, should something happen to the vessel they're on and they lose their armor? That's an entirely different kind of disaster, as many dwarven families pass armor down through the generations - not just as keepsakes, but as items of great historical significance to that family, and those who inherit said armor often wear them into battle with great pride. What dwarf would want to possibly chance losing such a family artifact by risking travel on water (whether wearing it or not)?

Heavy armor isn't the only reason for the dwarven aversion to water travel, but it is the most practical. Combine that with a body type that's highly impractical for swimming (short arms, shorter legs, and a comparitively massive torso), and you can begin to see why the "stereotypical" dwarven aversion to water travel prevails.

That brings us to a another stereotype that I also find little justification for outside "tradition": the dwarven use of heavy armour. Sure, it would be a natural choice for dwarven defenders, but those do not represent a majority of the dwarven population. The dwarven stature and the ability bonuses and penalties they recieve (except gold dwarves) do not indicate a preference for heavy armour above lighter armours. A dwarf can make use of lighter armours as effectivelya s any other arce without a bonus to dexterity, so the predominence of heavy armour comes down to how our ideas of dwarves has been shaped.

I am not arguing that every dwarf should be a natural sailor. I am arguing against the idea that they inheritly loath water-travel. The armour argument stands and falls on the assumption that all dwarves should use heavy armour, an assumption that I find largely exaggerated. As for their ability to swim; there are stranger and more unlikely creatures that are capable of it. And remember; not all sailors could swim RL either.

QPR wrote:

The dwarven stature and the ability bonuses and penalties they recieve (except gold dwarves) do not indicate a preference for heavy armour above lighter armours.

This just isn't true. Dwarves in PnP have the racial ability to be unencumbered by heavy armor, an ability which is unique to dwarves. They don't have it in NWN, but we're still playing D&D dwarves, here.

Also, I'm not sure what you intend by the assertion that there's "little justification for it outside tradition." Even if it that was true (which I dispute), Tradition in and of itself is a pretty compelling reason for things being the way they are, and it shouldn't be tossed aside lightly. That's especially true for dwarves, who are among the most hidebound traditionalists of any D&D race. "This is how my father's father's father's father's father did it, therefore it's good enough for me" is pretty much the dwarven baseline attitude.

I am not disputing IC dwarven tradition, I am disputing the traditions we hold as players of various fantasy games where dwarves seem to hold to the same stereotypes with very little variation. True, the dwarves get that one feat in most settings, but elves often get a bonus to bows and longswords without it being expected that they must use them.

What I am saying is that I find the way that dwarves are viewed in most fantasy settings as extremely limited, sometimes to the absurd. And I furthermore see no reason why dwarves who live near water should not make use of it, including sailing. Inland dwarves, who are the majority I assume, is a different matter ofcourse

I don't see why overturning a stereotype is so important. They are over simplified views of a people many of which have an element of truth I mean while stereotypes in real life can be applied to fit a group, and most of the people in the group will fit the template, there are those who are part of the group which will not.

So basically we are saying that ~Most~ dwarves don't like water travel, and ~most~ adventuring dwarves use heavy armour, not all. There is still plenty of scope for nautical dwarves, or dwarves who don't wear heavy armour (Trust me, I play one of the latter). I as a player won't kick up a fuss that your particular dwarf has a nautical background, for I have a friend who made a dwarven pirate character. In fact... due to being somewhat unique and not a heavy armour type... if he stays around long enough he may get an invite to the "Raiders"

QPR wrote:

I am not disputing IC dwarven tradition, I am disputing the traditions we hold as players of various fantasy games where dwarves seem to hold to the same stereotypes with very little variation. True, the dwarves get that one feat in most settings, but elves often get a bonus to bows and longswords without it being expected that they must use them.

What I am saying is that I find the way that dwarves are viewed in most fantasy settings as extremely limited, sometimes to the absurd. And I furthermore see no reason why dwarves who live near water should not make use of it, including sailing. Inland dwarves, who are the majority I assume, is a different matter ofcourse

You're arguing with yourself, you realize?

In D&D, Dwarves may be hardcore traditionalists, heavy armor users and have an inherent dislike for their feet leaving solid ground, but they clearly leave room for those few Dwarves who live against the grain. It's true that Dwarves are arguably thee standard D&D race that loves tradition, but it doesn't mean acceptations don't and do exist, because they do in fact exist.

Arguing against the lore isn't going to make any sort of case for you here. It is what it is and it does make sense that it's that way. You can make a Dwarf that isn't a total traditionalist and that's fine. A character that's a complete stereotype of its race/class is a boring character anyway.

Hell, if you just look at the Morndinsamman, you have Gods who are patrons of against the grain types, like Vergadain, Dugmaren Brightmantle and Marthammor Duin. These are three Gods who don't preach much about tradition and annoy Moradin for not being traditionalists. They're the proof these characters do exist, even if not common.

And one thing you can use for your character with a bit of research is the fact that certain Dwarven subraces have in fact moved toward coasts and waterside locations in more recent times. You'll find that in Races of Faerun.

That and the fact that one of the books detailing Luskan I believe denotes Seafaring Dwarves which is what I based the Dwarf Anubis was talking about on. I miss him wielding his heavy flail that was actually a boat anchor. . .

Lizzie wrote:

Also, I'm not sure what you intend by the assertion that there's "little justification for it outside tradition." Even if it that was true (which I dispute), Tradition in and of itself is a pretty compelling reason for things being the way they are, and it shouldn't be tossed aside lightly. That's especially true for dwarves, who are among the most hidebound traditionalists of any D&D race. "This is how my father's father's father's father's father did it, therefore it's good enough for me" is pretty much the dwarven baseline attitude.

A bit against (father's trade)^n.

First, very most of all adventuring dwarves (AD) are adventurers (it's obvious) or refugees, or outcasts, or whatever. This is clearly not their family trade, yes? So, AD are very minor part of dwarven race.

Second, bulk body of ADs are bent to traditional ways. It is well comes with lore and "common sence" (if it can be said so) of dwarven society as a whole. So, most of AD are fighters or clerics, or both.

Third, becuse of first statement, there must be insignificant number of out-of-tradition AD dwarves. Of course, they will be shunned and dispised by rest of their kin. This is because of "suspicious untraditional" and "suspicious untraditional AD". Even to level "burn him on stick!" for shame on race whole and "devastating effect of their very existence on basics of society (and tradition, and so on...)".

So, I conclude, very-out-of-tradition dwarf may exist (let so say, 1 per 10000, or less) and he will be utterly and complete outcast of dwarven society. Even more then duergar, I presume. (not to mention derro)

And this may complicate live of this one.

But this PC should be very funny, if carefully taken.

Concerning unorthodox dwarves, I believe people ain't asking right questions...

Does he follow Mordinsamman?
Does he show respect to elders/chain of command?
Does he show willingness for team work?
Is he fighting enemies of dwarves?
Does he grow and take care of his beard (because, how you take care of your beard is far more important then what you wear)?

This is what truly matters to dwarves IMHO. Not whether they use heavy armor or what profession is he (as long as it's hard working and not dishonorable, like thieving or whatnot).

Sincerely, seafaring dwarf who fills out all these requirements is less trouble then full plate wearing dwarf miner who follows non-dwarven god.

Well of course. No one ever said that a seafaring Dwarf is worse than a Dwarf who worships outside of the Morndinsamman.

Tradition as a whole matter to Dwarves. Some things are certainly more important, but working out at sea would make you out to be a strange Dwarf in Dwarven general opinion. The typical Dwarf would think, "why would he work at sea when he could work in the mine like our forefathers?" "Why would she adventure with Humans and Elves and not marry when she could be a good wife and protect her family?" There are certainly harsher things to be judged on than making a living at sea, but Dwarves will still judge them on it. They're just those kind of people. They're nit-picky.

Quote:

-4600 DR - The stone fortress of Sonnmorndin is built as a naval base by the Sailors of the Mountainous Waves, the dwarven marines of Haunghdannar, on the island of Arauwurbarak, which is present-day Ruathym.

-3389 DR - The dwarf realm of Haunghdannar falls. The sea is thought to have driven the dwarves of Haunghdannar mad; the realm rapidly dwindled as ship after ship that put out did not return, except for small fishing boats that never left the sight of land. The land was overrun by bugbears, trolls, ogres, and orcs.

-3100 DR - Human seafarers from the west land on Arauwurbarak, and finding the dwarven built Sonnmorndin, settle and name the island Ruathym.

Know your history.

Yossarin wrote:

Quote:

-3389 DR - The dwarf realm of Haunghdannar falls. The sea is thought to have driven the dwarves of Haunghdannar mad; the realm rapidly dwindled as ship after ship that put out did not return, except for small fishing boats that never left the sight of land. The land was overrun by bugbears, trolls, ogres, and orcs.

Know your history.

So, if I right undertand things, the sea-bound dwarf will be considered by rest of society as some sort of plague-bearer? Assuming, dwarves know quite well their history (and rumors around it) (which is safe assumption, because they tend to be very tradition-bound and tied their cultural heritage).

p.s. those words of QPR about carracks and longships leave impression of viking in dwarven hide. :/

@Gunz:
I never said they wouldn't have trouble, I was just commenting idea they would be outright ostracized and rejected.

@Yossarin:
Could you PM me where did you get details about Haunghdannar? I got some info from "Races of Faerun" and "Lost Empires", but I never got more then they were seafaring and date of founding and fall. I'd be grateful for any leads.

@Q't'ulu:
I doubt such info would be generally accessible to anyone but clan lorekeepers, and even that's a stretch. I'm not sure dwarves are extensively taught entire dwarven history to such degree, mabye some basic history about how their hold came to be, and then, their clan's history and ancestor's achievements in far greater detail.
So, unless you have seriously invested into lore ranks and have adequate professions like historian or such, I doubt you'd have access to that. I'm not sure if even Runa would know that.

The only thing I have to say is this, make dwarves and play them! Let the RP fall where it may!

I will add only this from one of our illustrious DMs:

Quote:

Things like "Your odd and will get strange looks if you make that 'type' of dwarf" are pretty much unescessary because that type of thing is better left to the in game environment. That type of forewarning makes people not want to play Dwarves. Dwarven culture has the Dogma's of Sharindlar, Marthammor Duin, Haela Brightaxe, Vergadain, Dugmaren Brightmantle and arguably Dumathoin allowing for many different kinds of dwarven tropes and the insistence on the OOC level that some of you are still maintaining of a singular view of Dwarven Culture is wrong.

Let's play and have some fun around Barak Runedar!!

It is basic Shield Dwarf history. I happened to have read about seafaring Shield Dwarves a while back when researching Ruathym. There is actually still a small seafaring clan of Shield Dwarves that roam the Trackless Sea. Forgot who they are though. They aren't recognized as a clan, and operate more like a marine crew, but they are out there.

Q'tulu: Well, dwarves have their origin in norse mythology (spesificly the poetic Edda), so I do view them in that light.

Yossarin: That a seafaring clan exists in the Trackless Sea is interesting. So far I have just invented a small clan, the Saltbeards, as one of many clans exiled by goblin and orc attacks that have been forced to settle elsewhere. In their case, they ended up in Baldurs Gate and turned to the sea when they did not find more traditional dwarven oppertunities.

I agree with QPR on most points. The stereotype is held way too strongly. So is the heavy armor stereotype: acquiring and maintaining good full plate is ridicilously expensive for the common man, and the vast majority of dwarves surely wear light and medium armor. The warrior class may afford better gear, and even then mostly use it in wartime. And it's not like you first buy an expensive armor and then choose your profession. If you become a sailor, you obviously get lighter gear. And to further respond to Khy, it's to be expected a dwarf becomes a professional sailor first and an adventurer second. Most people have a regular job after all, adventurers in any trade are the minority and probably don't start out that way with no job, no money and no experience.

I don't have any percentages to throw around, but even if 1% of dwarves are sailors that's not "against the grain" by any stretch of the word. It's a normal, reasonable share in a society not based around seafaring. For a small hold of 2000 dwarves, that's 20 sailors to man an entire ship. How many executioners, glassblowers, sculptors or dog tamers do you think an average city has? In order to function, a society needs people of many, many professions. Most of them have to be in the minority, but that doesn't mean they're somehow fundamentally against the norms and expectations of their society.

I could imagine that "fear/annoyance" with water could also derive from digging beneath the ground and stumbling upon a water source, which could result in deaths of many and cause a great hindrance to their work, thereby assosiating water with trouble.

Edit: Earth is almost the opposite of water, that it is not easily controlled and shaped.

QPR wrote:

Q'tulu: Well, dwarves have their origin in norse mythology (spesificly the poetic Edda), so I do view them in that light.

Does the birthright makes all norwegians are vikings? Of course, not. So with the dwarves. I indulge myself in citing wiki about dwarves of Edda:

"Dvergar or Norse dwarves (Old Norse dvergar, sing. dvergr) are entities in Norse mythology associated with rocks, the earth, deathliness, luck, technology, craft, metal work, wisdom, and greed. They are sometimes identified with Svartálfar ('black elves'), and Døkkálfar ('dark elves'),[1] due to their apparently interchangeable use in early texts such as the Eddas."

I ageed with Ulir, about water as almost opposite to earth. Putting it with Edda's dwarves leaves very small room to dwarven seafarers.

btw, even assuming existence a lot of dwarven sailors, _I_ prefer to think about metal ships. This based on dwarven familiarity with metalwork, _and_ vast source of metall to work with. afaik, in RL history metal in ships came after wood as industrial revolution makes iron (and steel) cheap, abudant and easy to work. The dwarven metal ships are looks good in this picture.

// I know about both Eddas (read english translations, because russian version is bit.. inadequate, imho). And D&D dwarves origins, too. This is why I was so excited with your proposal dwarf-seadog.

IronAngel wrote:

I agree with QPR on most points. The stereotype is held way too strongly. So is the heavy armor stereotype: acquiring and maintaining good full plate is ridicilously expensive for the common man, and the vast majority of dwarves surely wear light and medium armor. The warrior class may afford better gear, and even then mostly use it in wartime. And it's not like you first buy an expensive armor and then choose your profession. If you become a sailor, you obviously get lighter gear. And to further respond to Khy, it's to be expected a dwarf becomes a professional sailor first and an adventurer second. Most people have a regular job after all, adventurers in any trade are the minority and probably don't start out that way with no job, no money and no experience.

I don't have any percentages to throw around, but even if 1% of dwarves are sailors that's not "against the grain" by any stretch of the word. It's a normal, reasonable share in a society not based around seafaring. For a small hold of 2000 dwarves, that's 20 sailors to man an entire ship. How many executioners, glassblowers, sculptors or dog tamers do you think an average city has? In order to function, a society needs people of many, many professions. Most of them have to be in the minority, but that doesn't mean they're somehow fundamentally against the norms and expectations of their society.

I disagree. Tradition and sameness is something big to Dwarves. Of course not all Dwarves wear heavy armor, but if you're an adventuring or battle Dwarf, that's probably the end goal, in terms of armor. When you get your heavy armor, that's probably a major moment in a Dwarfs life. They've reached a milestone like their fathers before them who served in battle for their people.

Certainly there are profession that are respected that don't use heavy armor, like maybe certain scout and even sailors. The point isn't that they're treated like total crap and told they're not real Dwarves over it, it's that they're looked at and treated a bit differently for being different. If they do their jobs well, there would surely be great respect offered to them, but there's still that thread in their minds of "this Dwarf is odd."

Sailors would be against the grain. They're not common and it's not something that naturally comes to Dwarves. They have to think outside their Dwarven box to want to do it. That's the very definition of the saying "against the grain." You're considered against the grain if you do something that isn't natural to your people.

IronAngel wrote:

I don't have any percentages to throw around, but even if 1% of dwarves are sailors that's not "against the grain" by any stretch of the word. It's a normal, reasonable share in a society not based around seafaring.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find sailors in a dwarven settlement that's entirely landlocked, save for the streams or aquifers.

serbiris wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

I don't have any percentages to throw around, but even if 1% of dwarves are sailors that's not "against the grain" by any stretch of the word. It's a normal, reasonable share in a society not based around seafaring.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find sailors in a dwarven settlement that's entirely landlocked, save for the streams or aquifers.

Not all dwarvern strongholds are landlocked so that doesn't matter. Obviously you won't find any sailors in places that are landlocked, kind of goes to all the races.

Just out of curiosity: why all this effort to try to extract justification from lore for your character concept? Just because your dwarven sailor is 'against the grain' of dwarven society doesn't make him a flawed character in the "too screwy to be played on an RP server" sense. A dwarven sailor would be a societal outlier, but not so much of one that it would be beyond the pale of plausibility. If your guy is an oddball, own it! Run with it! IMHO, if you're going to play a societal outlier, it's better to just embrace the fact that the character is, for whatever reason, just a little bit "out there," instead of trying to maintain the pretext that there's a solid IC foundation of tradition that you're building your character up from. You're treading on shaky ground, there, I think.

Eh, my point is: every community that lives near water that can be used for travel, trade or food has sailors. They may be few in number, but their "strangeness" seems greatly exaggerated. It would be completely unbelievable for any settlement, dwarven or otherwise, to exist by water and not take advantage of it. It may be seen as a less popular, less prestigeous career, but nobody would deny it's a necessary one. Butchers, executioners and surgeons in medieval cities might be a good analogy: there was a definite stigma to those professions since they dealt with blood and other impurity, and even wealthy butcher families weren't likely to get into the higher social circles that their wealth might have warranted. Their professional titles were used as slurs, and overall they weren't very likeable. Yet you can be sure every city had their own butchers, executioners and surgeons, and nobody denied their necessity or thought twice about their existance. That might be closer to how some cities view dwarven sailors: they're rarely part of the most respected families, in casual chatter "sailor" might be synonymous to an irresponsible scoundrel, and they might face some stereotyping, but I don't think they would be considered "odd" or "unusual." Because even if their status is low, they still must exist everywhere where there is water. Beggars and gamblers might not be respectable people in Cordor, but nobody is surprised to find one.

Overall, people tend to exaggerate the cultural peculiarities of demihuman races. Just because elves or dwarves or hin are prone to certain behaviours and values doesn't mean they're any more uniform than humans about it. Elves like to live as one with nature, but that doesn't mean there aren't elven loggers and mining entrepeneurs. Gnomes may be rustic and simple, but there surely are gnomish fashion boutiques. Cordor is a Commonwealth, but there are surely plenty of monarchists among the people still. Wharftown is a fishing village, but that doesn't mean the few families growing potatoes on the fields are somehow "oddballs" in the community. The same economic and sociological processes function in every society regardless of race. It's very simplistic to assume demihumans have less cultural and social diversity just because humans have a certain stereotype about them. Each race, culture and settlement has a certain "overall" feel to it, but closer inspection would always show generalizations to be inadequate.

As far as Amia goes, Brogendenstein Port is the primary dwarven settlement. It is likely there are more dwarven sailors in these parts than on average.

Besides, Yossarin's lore quote shows in no uncertain terms that there's nothing particularly strange to see here. If there was an entire naval empire of dwarves, there certainly are the everyday sailors you find in every other society in all times.

Heavy armour has nothing to do with being a sailor. My dad was a fisherman in the north sea. Very few of them thought it was an advantage to be able to swim, as "Its better to drown fast than drown slow."

MoshingChris wrote:

That and the fact that one of the books detailing Luskan I believe denotes Seafaring Dwarves

Yossarin wrote:

Quote:

-3100 DR - Human seafarers from the west land on Arauwurbarak, and finding the dwarven built Sonnmorndin, settle and name the island Ruathym.

Quote:

It is basic Shield Dwarf history. I happened to have read about seafaring Shield Dwarves a while back when researching Ruathym. There is actually still a small seafaring clan of Shield Dwarves that roam the Trackless Sea. Forgot who they are though. They aren't recognized as a clan, and operate more like a marine crew, but they are out there.

The War Knight Keep in Ostland is the ancient fortress of Rethgaard, mentioned in "The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier",

Quote:

Rethgaard
Ancient seafaring dwarves built this stone fortress and, until recently, Rethgaard refused alliance with Ruathym and sided with Luskan. After Rethgaard refused to ally itself against Luskan, it was plundered by Luskan forces. (p.42)

Sonnmorndin would appear to be an ancient (Dwarven?) name for Rethgaard. This would mean that at least some parts of the building may be up to 6 millenia old. Who knows what ancient secrets might be found within it, hmm? :twisted:

Xaviera wrote:

Sonnmorndin would appear to be an ancient (Dwarven?) name for Rethgaard. This would mean that at least some parts of the building may be up to 6 millenia old. Who knows what ancient secrets might be found within it, hmm? :twisted:

Yep.

Lizzie wrote:

Just out of curiosity: why all this effort to try to extract justification from lore for your character concept? Just because your dwarven sailor is 'against the grain' of dwarven society doesn't make him a flawed character in the "too screwy to be played on an RP server" sense. A dwarven sailor would be a societal outlier, but not so much of one that it would be beyond the pale of plausibility. If your guy is an oddball, own it! Run with it! IMHO, if you're going to play a societal outlier, it's better to just embrace the fact that the character is, for whatever reason, just a little bit "out there," instead of trying to maintain the pretext that there's a solid IC foundation of tradition that you're building your character up from. You're treading on shaky ground, there, I think.

I think I should clarify my intention with this topic, it is (was) twofold: First, I wanted to know if there are any lore on seafaring dwarves. That was answered very quickly. What then followed secondly was my thoughts, and at times ranting, at what I see as conventions across all related fantasy rpg on dwarves being too narrow and conservative. The character mentioned is made and has interacted with many dwarves, of which I believe all have accepted him as a proper an honourable, if slightly different. That is not the issue. I do not need to justify him. What I, in my mind, am discussing here is what I see as a way to constricted views on dwarves in fantasy settings. I am in no way suggesting that already established lore should be changed, I am arguing for vieweing dwarves in a broader manner than what is the current "consencus"

In short, to me this thread has little to do with current IC happenings. It is more of a general discussion on whether or not the dwarven stereotype of disliking water is justified if one applies a somewhat broader concept of dwarves than what is common to do. As for the discussion of ships: longboats and carracks are just better suited for long distance trade and travel.

Dwarves and boats

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