So...I'm re-reading my Return of the Archwizards novels to get a better feel for my guy. I'm finding the physical descriptions of the Shadovar characters don't match the subrace description here -at all-. Maybe I'm just having a hard time telling the difference between the elite Shades in the novels, and the mortal Shadovar, but they all seem to be fairly large, muscular dudes with -dark -skin and "gem colored" eyes.

Our subrace sections says: "They have pale skin, and pale or dark hair. Their eyes are also faded and often hazel or grey. They tend to be slimmer than the other human races."

That's...pretty much the complete opposite of what I've been reading. I know the forgotten Realms novels aren't terribly accurate at times, but Mahtan suggested it as reading material. Thoughts?

(Furthermore, why does a race that lives in the Plane of Shadow for generations now not have Darkvision or at least Low-Light Vision)

DISCLAIMER: YES I AM AWARE SHADES AND SHADOVAR ARE NOT THE SAME THING. I reference them for a reason.

Here's the relevant excerpts I could find:

Shadovar being Netherese, therefore we have the "base phenotype" there.

As a rule of thumb, Amia lore trumps book lore. And frankly if given a choice between the monochromatic and shadow-like Amia version and large folk (despite con penalty) and mary sue eyes I pick Amia.

Edit: also yeah, what LetumLux got from the books. And yeah, it'd be nice if my light-hating can't-handle-colour-very-well Shadovar could see in the dark.

I did wonder some things about Shadovar though, not enough to post a thread but since we have one already: In the 3rd ed version of Lords of Darkness it's stated that no Shadovar who is not royalty or ranked Captain should leave the city without an escort. The passage *might* be talking about just the Shades themselves, but the wording is unclear. My question is, is it impossible to play a Shadovar on Amia who is there for legitimate and Shade-approved reasons, without making a request? Or can any given Shadovar acquire permission provided they are not a Shade and determined not to be a security liability?

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@Thanatopsis#6293

I maintain my suggestion the current Human Subraces should be replaced with Amian regional ethnicities for places like Forrstakkr, Frozenfar, Amia Island, Ruathym, Khem, Shadowscape, etc.. Human subraces don't usually provide ability modifications, and the choice of subraces to represent is entirely bizarre, especially since Human ethnicities are grouped into much different, larger ethnic categories.

Personally, I don't like the pasty Hot Topic take on the Shadovar. I prefer the dark countenance, dusky-skinned, black-eyed variety. (Heeelloooo, toxic Plane of Shadow devoid of color.)

It's been a year or so since I read those books, but I seem to remember there not being much mention of Shadovar there. The Lords of Shade are different than the Shadovar people, IIRC.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

When those races were done in '06, the team as a group had a lot less solid grasp on lore. A lot of the racial page snever got filled out. When I did the subrace page sfor R&L later I did digging and found that bit on Forgotten Realms Wiki. At the time, I hadn't found anything in a sourcebook that contradicted, so I went "okay, must be right" and added it in. My guess is I made the mistake of reading Shadovar/Shade wrong, or someone who edited the wiki did it, making the FRCS description there for all Shadovar, not just shades.

In any case, I'd say that even before you pull the "amia Lore" rule, that the FRCS description trumps the description in a novel, and so Shades are dusky or black skin with black eyes and are slim. Shadovar are then similar to this as stated in R&L.

I have edited the R&L page to reflect the skin color that shadovar can also have while not removing or retconning the current "Amia Lore" for Shadovar.



'06 was a long time ago, and I think you'll find most of the balance minded folk agree the human subraces were like, the worst idea, man. It was a time when we were less knowledgeable as a DM team in general. Amia has since its inception gradually grown towards a more FR-canon centric server, and we still have some leftover relics. that said: I think the human subraces ar enice. Amia is a place largely "tourist inhabited". Even Cordor was founded by immigrants, so it makes sense to have human subraces from all over Faerun. Mulan is an especial one that makes sense to to the links to the Alambar area.



You can play a Shadovar clearly, but it is indeed one of the races that is much more "driven" and "here for a reason". Any given Shadovar could probably acquire permission... assuming they'd be fine to work for the Shades because Amia and the region is....

Well, let's just say Thultantarr knows about Amia, and is rather interested in it.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

TormakSaber wrote:

'06 was a long time ago, and I think you'll find most of the balance minded folk agree the human subraces were like, the worst idea, man. It was a time when we were less knowledgeable as a DM team in general. Amia has since its inception gradually grown towards a more FR-canon centric server, and we still have some leftover relics. that said: I think the human subraces ar enice. Amia is a place largely "tourist inhabited". Even Cordor was founded by immigrants, so it makes sense to have human subraces from all over Faerun. Mulan is an especial one that makes sense to to the links to the Alambar area.

I don't mind Human subraces that provide mechanical bonuses; I just mind they're associated with ethnicities from the FRCS that means we can't, by the rules, play a Shadovar without getting a little screwed on Ability points, for instance. Choosing to play a Shadovar means 1 less point than a standard Human (and still no low-light vision for the trouble!) where as, say, a Tuigan breaks even with Abilities plus the bonus Feat. Meanwhile, playing an Illuskan means mechanically nothing. Whaaaat.

I just think that local, Amia-origined ethnicities would be far more interesting that weird, heritage modifications on a random selection of standard ethnicities.

Anyway, I digress!

Thanks for updating the Shadovar.

Okay. I was wondering because I know a few races of the subrace system are implied to all be renegades, though nothing was stated in the Shadovar description. That's very interesting though... and fits in rather nicely with my character. *edits out a line* >.>

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@Thanatopsis#6293

I'm not sure why the human races were made as they were. They were done when I was a really new DM by a team of DMs that's... pretty much not there anymore. And changes are hard because it means rebuilding EVERYTHING.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Yeah, I understand that.

This is a bit of a deviation from this particular thread, but would it be possible to start a change over by refusing newly created characters from those subraces to stymie the amount of us, then do what was done with Harper Scouts and PDK, offer "fix" rebuilds to people with the old subraces with a little bit of flex room for them to adjust their stats, but not big changes.

In the meantime, the current, lore-savvy team can be putting together stats and lore for Amian ethnicities to replace the existing ones.

It honestly seems like something that will happen eventually, considering all of the gradual overhauls that have been rolling across the server. I'm just hoping for sooner rather than later.

There's a huge amount of difference between how many human subraces have been taken in comparison to Harper Scout and PDK. Like, hundreds.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

Quite. I am not a fan of the human subraces myself, but the expense involved in having to rebuild every precious build out of them in the aftermath makes it not worth any DM's time.

Sir, senor.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

If you're looking for good resources on the Shadovar and the Thultanthar (the Shade Enclave) the "What The Common Shadovar Know" section on page 79 of Lords of Darkness. A skim through the rest of that section also talks about the way the society is organized, details about the City of Shade, and peripheral information.

It also talks about the machinations of the ruling Elite Shades and has plot hooks for implementing Thultanthar in a campaign, which you should probably just skip over. But the other parts are really helpful for developing a Shadovar with rich lore to provide cues for the psychology and culture of a Shadovar character.

Lords of Darkness does seem to be the best sourcebooks on them.

One question I do have amounts to what race are the Shadowscapites? Are they Shadovar, Shades, Shadovari or some other race completely? After all, its Amia's only city in the Shadow Plane.

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

The folk of Shadowscape are closer to the Shadow Touched template (or whatever it's called from Manual of the Planes) than Shadovar.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham