AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Granted, I don't know much about SD's as I havent really ever played any. But, I do see the argument for giving some of their other abilities a little love, especially for those SD's who go for more than 6 levels. Shadow Evade could certainly need a little more oomph, or more uses/day and longer duration.

Yeah, god forbid there was a skill or two that could totally wipe out this godly, supernatural ability.

Oh, wait...there is...spot and listen.

Get 100+ in either (quite doable) and then boom, this godly, all powerful, supernatural ability is gone.

How do you think Krugan fights other shadow dancers?

But that would require actually using the skills available in game along with using the gear to boost it.

I know quite a few people that have done this and they stop SDs cold. The very spammers that abuse this run from them too.

Krugan is one of those people in fact. Derrin I KNOW is a master of it because Krugan can't sneak up on him to win a bet except very, very rarely even when I am in full stealth gear and busting 105 MS and Hide.

But whatever...its not changing back. I knew that when I started it. Don't matter.

When it becomes apparent that Krugan is no longer a viable fighter, he'll be shelved and I will do exactly as others seem to forget I already said I would...I will simply roll a new toon or work one I already have.

But, seeing how *I* think everyone has missed my point I'll restate it once again.

When you compare the three main rogue classes.

Rogue

Shadow Dancer

Assassin

Simply answer me two questions.

1) Why play a Shadow Dancer OVER a Rogue or an Assassin based on game mechanics which we are now being forced to think about?

2) Tell me how this change encourages roleplaying a SD and going BEYOND level 6 as a Shadow Dancer instead of discourages it?

I'll stop now because these are the questions I would like answered, not that it matters I know. The change is done, it won't go back and I will deal with it as it is however I feel I need to deal with it because its a done deal.

I won't rebuild Krugan. I won't change him to be a better powerbuild as that is not the reason I played him. If it was I wouldn't have gone 16 levels of SD which greatly weakened him mechanically over using those other 10 levels in another class.

And for the record the 1 to 1 time comparison was pointedly stupid on purpose. How many casters would bother with the classes they play if that was the case? I've been on servers where you could rest once per 8 real hours. Everyone was effected and you end up blowing your spells in a matter of minutes and then the fighters even stop because no healing left and you can afford heal kits or potions because you can't kill enough stuff to cover the costs.

What happened there was people would log in, play 30-60 minutes, then log out for the day. Not much fun.

All done in the name of "being realistic"....yeah...that is why we play spell slingers and such...we want realistic...not fantasy... :roll:

So no...I dont' want nor support that kind of change.

...Seriously? Over this?

Last edited by Simeron on Mon, Mar 05 2012, 20:31 PM, edited 1 time in total.

QPR wrote:

Granted, I don't know much about SD's as I havent really ever played any. But, I do see the argument for giving some of their other abilities a little love, especially for those SD's who go for more than 6 levels. Shadow Evade could certainly need a little more oomph, or more uses/day and longer duration.

Krugan spend a good amount of his and others DCs to get an ability that is quite nice. Its based on SD levels.

It consumes all three Shadow Evades and in return, gives you a Greater Stoneskin and Death Ward based on your SD Level. It also gives the very cool looking Shadow Shield visual effect.

I love it. Its no way over powered at all.

I also got permission to make it teachable.

Guess how many SDs have asked Krugan to teach them even after he started mentioning it to them in IC banter.....

Zero, none, nil, nada, not even one.

Its very discouraging to me as a player that loves the SD but, I roll with it. It happens.

Personally, I think Sune's idea to just take the SD class off the server would be just fine. But this is what we have to work with. So be it.

And I seem to remember a call going out a bit ago for SD teachers because there was a decided LACK of 10th level SDs. Wonder what would happen if they moved HiPS to 10th.

Hell, do it now WITH the 6 second lag in HiPS. Let's see if people will lose 4 more levels out of another class for it.

Would be interesting to see where the server thinks the value of HiPS is compared to other classes skills.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Simeron wrote:

I'm curious what mains everyone plays that see this as a wonderful thing?

SDs?

Yes. I've played a Shadowdancer exclusively for over seven years and this was primarily my idea.

And rest assured, this is hands-down the best method for nerfing Hide in Plain Sight possible on Neverwinter.

Bar removing the feat entirely, but nobody would like that.

I play two Shadow-dancers as my mains now, had another SD lightfoot who was my old main but his RP dried up when my main friend on him got altitis and just never had much of a purpose for him that wasn't based on helping the char that disappeared, I'm looking at you Ozelotl; ANYWAYS one an assassin, one a rogue (Which I'm thinking about doing a self-rebuild on purely because there was a few points lost in translation when I was asking for help with the build and it muffed it up, and no, I'm keeping the SD, may add more)

This is an RP server, not a solo-the-areas server. I think it's well known that DMs jobs are to -make- us RP, and forcing the SDs who'd rather just grind alone to actually interact with other players while they get Levels. Did I enjoy being able to HiPS without waiting a round, You betcha, especially when on hired killer errands, because I didn't like having to take people on me with those and try to explain it (it was fun getting caught by other PCs while doing it though XD). Am I going to shelf my assassin because of it? Hell No? Throwing darkness seems more realistic to me anyways than oop I'm here, oop im gone, oop im here again, oop you can't see me so you're going to stand there while i wipe out all your friends. It's just derpy when you think about it from an IC perspective anyways. I'm really happy for the change and I think it will help remind some SD players to RP.

If you really shelf Krugan over it, even though I haven't seen him in a while, I'd be seriously disappointed in what I thought was a great RP build being shelved purely because you can't solo by abusing your poor F1 key. I mean you worked so hard on a character now you throw him away because they won't let you go hunting alone and rape epic areas, like you used to? That very much disappoints me, but atleast the light was shone on that shadow
*sociallyawkwardpenguin.jpg* *Foreveralone.jpg*

Lally wrote:

...Seriously? Over this?

Yeah.. I'm very disappointed to see this reaction from people.. It's pretty much an RP class.. it's canon, it's fun, it's unique, it has great benefits, HiPS is just as strong (if you're travelling with a party) and just as useful except it took out your ability to solo and spam anything without true sight or mega-high spot. I mean, this is seriously discouraging to me as a person who loves the Shadowdancer class to see all this rage at a small tweak on something -that needed fixed- It's f---ing ridiculous (not sure if we're allowed to drop the bomb on forums so I try to avoid it, but it's apt here) Just shelf your goddamn shadow dancers if you can't deal with not solo'ing everything and let people who enjoy the class for more than being able to hit F1 to be invincible and drop it, and for those who might feel like they get a free-to-level-rebuild, I think you're absolutely stupid. It's not that big of a change! It's ONE round, with a party you wouldn't even notice it!

Simeron wrote:

1) Why play a Shadow Dancer OVER a Rogue or an Assassin based on game mechanics which we are now being forced to think about?

2) Tell me how this change encourages roleplaying a SD and going BEYOND level 6 as a Shadow Dancer instead of discourages it?

...

1) If I'm not mistaken, HiPS breaks an epic spotters' LOS and attack queue for a split second regardless of their Spot/Listen check. I think I've heard that before?

2) How did original HiPS encourage anyone to go above 6 SD? That isn't even an argument, dude

Yes regardless of Spot you can still break line of sight long enough to force them to flat foot and sneak attack them. But you had to be very quick to do this, best with a bow. This is still possible, just better controlled and limited.

Naivatkal wrote:

Simeron wrote:

1) Why play a Shadow Dancer OVER a Rogue or an Assassin based on game mechanics which we are now being forced to think about?

2) Tell me how this change encourages roleplaying a SD and going BEYOND level 6 as a Shadow Dancer instead of discourages it?

...

1) If I'm not mistaken, HiPS breaks an epic spotters' LOS and attack queue for a split second regardless of their Spot/Listen check. I think I've heard that before?

2) How did original HiPS encourage anyone to go above 6 SD? That isn't even an argument, dude

aside from what Naiv said

BECAUSE IT'S A GREAT RP CLASS! A fantastic RP class, because you get SHADOW JUMP with RP, am I the only one here who plays SDs and isn't purely concerned with facking combat effectiveness? I like HiPS more for it's phenomenal RP potential than it's ability to keep me from getting killed by retard mobs who let me pop in and out to kill them. If you can't hang in PvP with a mage, then ICly you KNOW that so don't pick a facking fight with them and use cunning to win instead of blinking constantly or making them waste a prepared spot on TS. and there's this wonderful spell called Darkness,
Step 1: Find something with Darkness property (there's only 1400 so you might have to check somewhere besides Cordor market district)
Step 2: fling it at things you don't want to see you
Step 3: You can use it to break LoS while your ONE ROUND cooldown on your HIPS
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Profit

I'm seriously disappointed to some of the reactions, like utterly discouraged because you guys are acting like they're making you wait 6 days before you can use HiPS again, it's literally 6 seconds, if you walk to disengage, and step around a corner you can HiPS without a problem. It makes you actually THINK about what you're doing instead of just "Ooops that was a stupid idea, herpdederp I'll just hit F1 and it's Kay"

My eds do more rp then hunting. Hell chest can't ever hunt cause of how many people like to rp with him... and now to find a party is a pain in the ass to even lvl him and when I do I'm ending up dead due to everything likening to turn on me and I can't run fast enough. 50 AC is great and all but still seem to Ger murdered by everything. Kinda have to make a powerbuild sd now if I want to think about hunting it seems

Huzzah to the 6 sec cooldown. Now tell me that the next item on the "to fix list" is Epic Dodge and I'll go drink myself into a stupor. Yes, I am being serious.

Counter Phobia wrote:

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Simeron wrote:

I'm curious what mains everyone plays that see this as a wonderful thing?

SDs?

Yes. I've played a Shadowdancer exclusively for over seven years and this was primarily my idea.

And rest assured, this is hands-down the best method for nerfing Hide in Plain Sight possible on Neverwinter.

Bar removing the feat entirely, but nobody would like that.

I play two Shadow-dancers as my mains now, had another SD lightfoot who was my old main but his RP dried up when my main friend on him got altitis and just never had much of a purpose for him that wasn't based on helping the char that disappeared, I'm looking at you Ozelotl; ANYWAYS one an assassin, one a rogue (Which I'm thinking about doing a self-rebuild on purely because there was a few points lost in translation when I was asking for help with the build and it muffed it up, and no, I'm keeping the SD, may add more)

This is an RP server, not a solo-the-areas server. I think it's well known that DMs jobs are to -make- us RP, and forcing the SDs who'd rather just grind alone to actually interact with other players while they get Levels. Did I enjoy being able to HiPS without waiting a round, You betcha, especially when on hired killer errands, because I didn't like having to take people on me with those and try to explain it (it was fun getting caught by other PCs while doing it though XD). Am I going to shelf my assassin because of it? Hell No? Throwing darkness seems more realistic to me anyways than oop I'm here, oop im gone, oop im here again, oop you can't see me so you're going to stand there while i wipe out all your friends. It's just derpy when you think about it from an IC perspective anyways. I'm really happy for the change and I think it will help remind some SD players to RP.

If you really shelf Krugan over it, even though I haven't seen him in a while, I'd be seriously disappointed in what I thought was a great RP build being shelved purely because you can't solo by abusing your poor F1 key. I mean you worked so hard on a character now you throw him away because they won't let you go hunting alone and rape epic areas, like you used to? That very much disappoints me, but atleast the light was shone on that shadow
*sociallyawkwardpenguin.jpg* *Foreveralone.jpg*

First off, Krugan RARELY hunted alone. The Spires were about the only place he could and that is not doable since the change at all.

I never "abused" the F1 key (which is NOT my stealth key BTW, that is F2, F1 is detect). Krugan has NEVER been able to do epic areas without ALOT of help.

He has gotten his gold from being a trader and slowly building up his funds.

I don't boss run. I don't PvP my ass off. I don't go on a crap ton of assassination missions. And this one change is not the only reason Krugan may be shelved.

It is a further degradation of a class I love to play and a further weakening of a class that already was pushed to the fringe.

Like has been said and resaid and admitted to...

Nobody takes this class except for HiPS.

HiPS too strong...take it TOTALLY OUT...Completely...wipe it out and nobody can get it. NOBODY.

But give the SD something back in return to make it worth playing. Right now as has been admited all over this thread the ONLY reason people play an SD is for HiPS.

Not Shadow Evade

Not the Epic Shadow Lord that nobody seriously thinks compares to Mummy Dust or upper level summons.

Not even Epic Dodge that can be gotten just as easily with a Rogue or Assassin (or even MONK) build.

This is the one draw the class has and I can tell you, 6 seconds doesn't seem like a lot and maybe it isn't.

But its enough that I can't break monster lock on Krugan in PvE without taking 50% or more damage, often times I get killed.

In PvP, what happens is I attack, the opposing sides does IKD, Stun, casts Bigbys or what not because I don't kill them immediately because I don't HAVE KD because that is not how Krugan is, I have DISARM (improved in fact). So in short, because I didn't build him to "PvP, I get wiped out in it.

Someone with high spot or listen can still wipe me out. Now, they don't even need those things.

Maybe that is broken in the game mechanics. Maybe the monsters shouldn't be able to see me after I restealth...but they can.

The point of playing the character is to have fun with the character and make a story with them. I have never tried to ruin other players fun as I know has happened with SDs.

What I feel is happening is the people that DONT abuse HiPS now get to see the fun of their RP build of a master stealther get sucked up and we are being told we should like it or because we dont, we are some kind of second class, PvP arsehole that only played the class for HiPS.

Again, I asked two questions that as of yet are unanswered and if the only reason I played an SD was HiPS...why do I have 16 levels of SD instead of 6.

What did I possibly get for having 10 MORE levels of SD compared to 10 levels of Rogue and be a 20 Rogue, 4 Fighter and 6 SD vs a 10 Rogue, 4 Fighter and 16 SD?

If I was going for a POWER BUILD..which of those would be the better one?

I'm going to walk away from the thread now...no point beating my head on this wall.

This is done. Its done etched in titanium alloy cryo metal from the 10th dimensional diamond ethos of the power of creation.

I get it.

Really...I get it.

Naivatkal wrote:

Simeron wrote:

1) Why play a Shadow Dancer OVER a Rogue or an Assassin based on game mechanics which we are now being forced to think about?

2) Tell me how this change encourages roleplaying a SD and going BEYOND level 6 as a Shadow Dancer instead of discourages it?

...

1) If I'm not mistaken, HiPS breaks an epic spotters' LOS and attack queue for a split second regardless of their Spot/Listen check. I think I've heard that before?

2) How did original HiPS encourage anyone to go above 6 SD? That isn't even an argument, dude

1) You are mistaken if the way Krugan gets pasted is any indication.

2) It didn't. Thus why I said move it to 10th, not 6th.

This is supposedly to counter people just going to 6th to get it...how does this accomplish this?

Mahtan Tasadur wrote:

Yes regardless of Spot you can still break line of sight long enough to force them to flat foot and sneak attack them. But you had to be very quick to do this, best with a bow. This is still possible, just better controlled and limited.

Then either I am doing it very wrong or its not working for me.

I've even done the corner slip and because NwN does the "see around corners" thing all to often even that seems to get me too.

I'm out...nothing to be accomplished...I need to just walk away now...thanks to the ones that actually talked to me and gave good arguments.

We'll see if I feel up to running Krugan much anymore or not..right now, given the results of me trying last night, I really do not feel the urge to go "SDing" at all.

And I know at least one other SD that feels similar if his own words are to be believed.

Good hunting, enjoy the game.

Simeron wrote:

First off, Krugan RARELY hunted alone. The Spires were about the only place he could and that is not doable since the change at all.

I never "abused" the F1 key (which is NOT my stealth key BTW, that is F2, F1 is detect). Krugan has NEVER been able to do epic areas without ALOT of help.

He has gotten his gold from being a trader and slowly building up his funds.

I don't boss run. I don't PvP my ass off. I don't go on a crap ton of assassination missions. And this one change is not the only reason Krugan may be shelved.

It is a further degradation of a class I love to play and a further weakening of a class that already was pushed to the fringe.

Like has been said and resaid and admitted to...

Nobody takes this class except for HiPS.

HiPS too strong...take it TOTALLY OUT...Completely...wipe it out and nobody can get it. NOBODY.

But give the SD something back in return to make it worth playing. Right now as has been admited all over this thread the ONLY reason people play an SD is for HiPS.

Not Shadow Evade

Not the Epic Shadow Lord that nobody seriously thinks compares to Mummy Dust or upper level summons.

Not even Epic Dodge that can be gotten just as easily with a Rogue or Assassin (or even MONK) build.

This is the one draw the class has and I can tell you, 6 seconds doesn't seem like a lot and maybe it isn't.

But its enough that I can't break monster lock on Krugan in PvE without taking 50% or more damage, often times I get killed.

In PvP, what happens is I attack, the opposing sides does IKD, Stun, casts Bigbys or what not because I don't kill them immediately because I don't HAVE KD because that is not how Krugan is, I have DISARM (improved in fact). So in short, because I didn't build him to "PvP, I get wiped out in it.

Someone with high spot or listen can still wipe me out. Now, they don't even need those things.

Maybe that is broken in the game mechanics. Maybe the monsters shouldn't be able to see me after I restealth...but they can.

The point of playing the character is to have fun with the character and make a story with them. I have never tried to ruin other players fun as I know has happened with SDs.

What I feel is happening is the people that DONT abuse HiPS now get to see the fun of their RP build of a master stealther get sucked up and we are being told we should like it or because we dont, we are some kind of second class, PvP arsehole that only played the class for HiPS.

Again, I asked two questions that as of yet are unanswered and if the only reason I played an SD was HiPS...why do I have 16 levels of SD instead of 6.

What did I possibly get for having 10 MORE levels of SD compared to 10 levels of Rogue and be a 20 Rogue, 4 Fighter and 6 SD vs a 10 Rogue, 4 Fighter and 16 SD?

If I was going for a POWER BUILD..which of those would be the better one?

I'm going to walk away from the thread now...no point beating my head on this wall.

This is done. Its done etched in titanium alloy cryo metal from the 10th dimensional diamond ethos of the power of creation.

I get it.

Really...I get it.

The only thing I don't get is why is this the straw that broke the Camel's back?

Why is this the thing you completely scrap your whole build over?

Why is this tiny, itsy bitsy, teenie weenie, nerf that makes a shit-ton of balance sense such a god awful thing?

Yes people take 6 SD for HiPS, and that gave the DM team the reason to move HiPS to 6th level, to force them to RP their SD levels instead of just doing what people do with Rogue and take 1 level then shit in the tumble section and they'll never RP that rogue level, they'll never be known as rogues. 6 levels of something can't be un-RP'd because it requires you to at least have your build impacted by the fact that you HAVE HiPS and once you -have- that HiPS, you become known ICly as a Shadow Dancer.

Now because the Shadow Dancers got such an edge due to the ability to spam, whether you do it or not, you're able to; They took away the ability to use shadows, push away shadows, use shadows, push away shadows, 4 times a round. It makes more IC sense, it makes more OOC balance sense, and quite honestly, with Shadow Jump ability, Access to the Shadow dancer's store (the 10th level being considered one of the better stores on the server, or atleast for that persuasion of character) how is this a useless class now? I just don't follow that train of thought at all.

Hide in Plain sight shouldn't be -removed- because it's there for an IC reason, if I'm not mistaken, it's canon that people can do that. I don't understand why it's a "I can spam it all day, or it shouldn't be allowed at all" kind of deal.

I don't know if the DMs are even reading this topic any longer, but I will start by saying; I see that a lot of thought went into this, and that the current cool down was an awesome compromise if something had to be done.

However... yea you knew it was coming. I have built servers, ran servers, DM'd, and RP/PG'd in NWN since July 2002, and the simply fact is, people are always going to abuse things. Whether it is taking one level of bard so they can skill dump, or taking 1 level of SD so they get HiPs. IMO running a police-state system only leads to frustration for all involved.

I can't build characters. Anyone I play with can tell you that. My chars are built on RP, and in PvM or PvP they don't stand a chance. I don't boss-farm, I don't take classes for skill dumps. Yet the only justification anyone seems to give for such nerfs is that MY characters will be punished, because some people abuse an imperfect system.

ALL classes have their strengths and weaknesses. Therefore, the reasoning of "leveling the playing field" seems unreasonable to me. PrCs are supposed to be superior! They have trained and focused on specific tactics, often to the exclusion of everything else... Thus see the first sentence of this paragraph.

... /end rant/

Soul_Reaper wrote:

My eds do more rp then hunting. Hell chest can't ever hunt cause of how many people like to rp with him... and now to find a party is a pain in the ass to even lvl him and when I do I'm ending up dead due to everything likening to turn on me and I can't run fast enough. 50 AC is great and all but still seem to Ger murdered by everything. Kinda have to make a powerbuild sd now if I want to think about hunting it seems

Hey you were one of the people I was hunting with and you weren't having a problem ;p

Also, he has Sorana to hunt with!

Anatida wrote:

I don't know if the DMs are even reading this topic any longer, but I will start by saying; I see that a lot of thought went into this, and that the current cool down was an awesome compromise if something had to be done.

However... yea you knew it was coming. I have built servers, ran servers, DM'd, and RP/PG'd in NWN since July 2002, and the simply fact is, people are always going to abuse things. Whether it is taking one level of bard so they can skill dump, or taking 1 level of SD so they get HiPs. IMO running a police-state system only leads to frustration for all involved.

I can't build characters. Anyone I play with can tell you that. My chars are built on RP, and in PvM or PvP they don't stand a chance. I don't boss-farm, I don't take classes for skill dumps. Yet the only justification anyone seems to give for such nerfs is that MY characters will be punished, because some people abuse an imperfect system.

ALL classes have their strengths and weaknesses. Therefore, the reasoning of "leveling the playing field" seems unreasonable to me. PrCs are supposed to be superior! They have trained and focused on specific tactics, often to the exclusion of everything else... Thus see the first sentence of this paragraph.

... /end rant/

I can't build a character to save my life either, I still don't understand the majority of when people try to explain it to me so I usually just tell someone my general idea, they give me a build and I change it as my char progresses, I've never won a single PvP fight (out of 3, all 3 of which I had 6 SD levels XD go figure) and I die with relative consistency in PvE because my character (well one of them, 6 SD) would sooner heal her tanky damage dealer than poof away and wait for despawn to raise them.

Most of my characters (being as i have 3-4 and 2 are SD) are being "punished" but this nerf isn't even big. That's why I just don't understand the problem with it. And as far as levelling the playing field, I think -most- people power build, many RP their powerbuilds VERY well, but the fact remains, if it wasn't for the balancing that gets done here, we'd have 43 alterations of the same 6 builds out of 50 players online.. Go to an arena server and see how many god-forsaken exhaulted sorcerors there are. I'm not saying they wouldn't be RP'd well, but that's still VERY bland.

In a perfect world, would it be necessary to alter things to keep people from exploiting things? No

Unfortunately this isn't a perfect world and we few do get punishment for the collective group, who probably don't even look at forums aside from to rage about their chars being nerfed and them having to adjust their strategies and what not.

Counter Phobia wrote:

Lally wrote:

...Seriously? Over this?

Yeah.. I'm very disappointed to see this reaction from people.. It's pretty much an RP class.. it's canon, it's fun, it's unique, it has great benefits, HiPS is just as strong (if you're travelling with a party) and just as useful except it took out your ability to solo and spam anything without true sight or mega-high spot. I mean, this is seriously discouraging to me as a person who loves the Shadowdancer class to see all this rage at a small tweak on something -that needed fixed- It's f---ing ridiculous (not sure if we're allowed to drop the bomb on forums so I try to avoid it, but it's apt here) Just shelf your goddamn shadow dancers if you can't deal with not solo'ing everything and let people who enjoy the class for more than being able to hit F1 to be invincible and drop it, and for those who might feel like they get a free-to-level-rebuild, I think you're absolutely stupid. It's not that big of a change! It's ONE round, with a party you wouldn't even notice it!

Some of the people clearly don't want to admit that they're mad they can't auto win against the large majority of people who don't have 100 spot.

Nothing to be upset about! For SD's there's an easy fix:
- Moar AC.
- Pimp out some CON in your gear.
- Hunt in a group.

Simeron wrote:

2) How did original HiPS encourage anyone to go above 6 SD? That isn't even an argument, dude

2) It didn't. Thus why I said move it to 10th, not 6th.

This is supposedly to counter people just going to 6th to get it...how does this accomplish this?[/quote]

Because many people went to 6 because they can spam stealth/unstealth in combat. It makes logical sense that if someone just wants to do that and they cannot, then they will not bother with cheesing their build for HiPS (since obviously they only wanted HiPS and not the SD class).

Naivatkal wrote:

Soul_Reaper wrote:

My eds do more rp then hunting. Hell chest can't ever hunt cause of how many people like to rp with him... and now to find a party is a pain in the ass to even lvl him and when I do I'm ending up dead due to everything likening to turn on me and I can't run fast enough. 50 AC is great and all but still seem to Ger murdered by everything. Kinda have to make a powerbuild sd now if I want to think about hunting it seems

Hey you were one of the people I was hunting with and you weren't having a problem ;p

Also, he has Sorana to hunt with!

Bare with the spelling. My phone likes its auto correct. And ches not chest gets his butt handed to him every time I turn around. And sadly that is the best build I could do for what he is.... and she don't like him hahaha

I look at this all and simply say "So what if you can't be a perfect Nightcrawler ((pretty much 1:32 on)) in the eyes of the observer?" Of course you aren't teleporting but popping in and out of combat like that, you're still going to be close!

• SDs that spam HiPS are the only ones that take a solid hit. This Nerf in no way impedes the RP capabilities of the talent, nor does it alter the basic fluff.

• Taking an SD into Combat now needs to include Corner-sneaking tactics assuming they can't hold out a full Round (6 seconds) without HiPS.

That scene is one of my favourite X-men scenes. And SD's can still totally be Nightcrawler style!

To HiPS, or not to HiPS..

I don't have a SD but I seriously don't believe this was nerfed because of spam.. What about Knockdown spam, what about Disarm spam.. even the NPC's spam. All these things can be countered. In my opinion this will only result in that the epic spotter classes will now have 33-66 skill points to spend somewhere else...

Polris wrote:

I don't have a SD but I seriously don't believe this was nerfed because of spam.. What about Knockdown spam, what about Disarm spam.. even the NPC's spam. All these things can be countered. In my opinion this will only result in that the epic spotter classes will now have 33-66 skill points to spend somewhere else...

Hahaha I totally agree

Your tears sustain me, and if you quit your SD over this, you were probably one of the SDs that wasn't fronting the RP anyways!

TormakSaber wrote:

Your tears sustain me, and if you quit your SD over this, you were probably one of the SDs that wasn't fronting the RP anyways!

Yep, neither Krugan nor the other SD that I know of has done anything for the SDs on the server. Just PGing the Powerbuild and abusing the hell out of HiPS to make the server cry.

Bodies of PCs and NPCs littered before, next and behind me as I strode as a god among ants.

snort.

And as I said, this isn't the only reason Krugan may get shelved. One of the reasons is many of the players he RPed with are gone. Its just one more thing after last night that tells me the fun is gone.

And what is the point of logging into a character that isn't fun anymore?

I think that's called work and I spend plenty of hours working on computers. Don't need that from the few hours I get to enjoy being on one.

There are other reasons that you and the team are aware of also.

Now I must go spank my hands for I have taken the Tormak bait and rose back into the thread...silly, foolish PvP ganking SD God that I am.

I think my PvP fight total is....3...with a total of 3 kills. All of them RP related.

Though I hear Krugan is accused of much, much more.

This is getting stupid.

Simeron wrote:

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Get off your high horse, Simeron.

This...this fix was a long time in coming. I cant in my good judgement call it a nerf because well it wasnt HIPS still does what it says on the front of the box. TECHNICALLY hips should of been spammable as its a free action BUT it let people make bad dancer builds and generally shit up a really fun to RP class.

I also wish I saw this forum before I got into a brawl just now and hid and wondered why that dudes longsword tasted so much like my meat. My poor poor meat. Kudo's amia, keep rolling the fixes out.

TormakSaber wrote:

Simeron wrote:

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Get off your high horse, Simeron.

Indeed dude. Relax. This isn't as big a deal as you believe it to be, honest.

Get in game with Kru and try it out. Right now your stance is over the top and not matching any of the observations that I, for one, have made while watching players test their new HiPS in client.

Feonir wrote:

This...this fix was a long time in coming. I cant in my good judgement call it a nerf because well it wasnt HIPS still does what it says on the front of the box. TECHNICALLY hips should of been spammable as its a free action BUT it let people make bad dancer builds and generally shit up a really fun to RP class.

I also wish I saw this forum before I got into a brawl just now and hid and wondered why that dudes longsword tasted so much like my meat. My poor poor meat. Kudo's amia, keep rolling the fixes out.

No, it shouldn't be spammable because you can't free action on your opponent's turn, so basically you HIPS once per round.

Just like the cooldown.

Soul_Reaper wrote:

Bare with the spelling. My phone likes its auto correct. And ches not chest gets his butt handed to him every time I turn around. And sadly that is the best build I could do for what he is.... and she don't like him hahaha

Does so! She just thought the original encounter was funny. She's got a sense of humor lol

TormakSaber wrote:

No, it shouldn't be spammable because you can't free action on your opponent's turn, so basically you HIPS once per round.

Just like the cooldown.

You know... I never even thought of it that way. So now it makes complete sense! Mechanics and gameplay support it haha.

My impression this thread:

A few people: "Waaah, why our invincibility spam no more invincible? I can haz rebuild/HiPS at lower level/bitchfit?"

Everyone else: "Ah, yeah, that was annoying. Good call."

Isn't that well enough to close this damn thing?

Quote:

I would be interested if more SDs and Assassins can compare their experiences here. Because the Assassins that go to 16th and 19th sure seem ALOT more effective now.

So here it is, Simeron.

I won't stop playing Haan because of this fix. I think it's a neat change, and frankly, I'm going to love the challenge. Yes, I could have challenged myself in keeping myself from spamming, but being forced in this situation isn't bad either. Besides, anyone that knew me as a PvPer on Haan would know that I'd "HiPS Spam" from one side of my opponent to the other, and lingering for about a flurry and a half for the coolness of the attack animation. I thought it just looked cooler. Hah!

And if less people play Shadowdancers... you know what- I'm all for it. A Shadowdancer is an exotic being. And I think if we give this time, the less devoted Shadowdancers will make assassins/rogues/whatevers, and the remaining Shadowdancers will enjoy a period of dark royalty. Also, as I've seen Krugan and Derrin do, Shadowdancers still have a large amount of Shadow RP at their disposal. With the right roleplay and a number of DC's, you can experiment with all kinds of shadow tricks. If I was any good at keeping my DC's in my pocket, I would have done some cool stuff with Haan and shadow maneuvers.

And here's where I passively (And in a friendly way), poke fun at you Krugan

. The shadowdancer, in my opinion, was better served as a "Right hand man", a sleuth, a spy(Master), intelligence gatherer. An artist and a subtle danger. I never really imagined a shadowdancer taking on hordes of giants at a time. Where's the "Shadowy-aspect" of that? I leave those confrontations for power-hungry mages and mighty paladins. And in PvP, that specific moment's HiPS will be that much more clutch. I'm not worried about Hips when I've still got my handy-dandy traps either. So maybe Krugan will have to enter a little less public role. :twisted:

But if you still like the image of shadow-whirlwind around an opponent, here are a few ideas that might be fun.
1.) Darkness. 'Nuff said, and I think it's been mentioned here plenty.
2.) Shadowjump. Pop out of a HiPS, enter a quick flurry, click that shadowjump to a far location. Sneak off another arrow before your opponent gets to you- then enter Hips. Rinse, wash, repeat. Shadowjump to your darkness bubble, lay a trap. There's still so much that can be done in an aesthetically pleasing manner that can cause mass confusion on the battlefield. Besides, as a Master SD, you have 10 of those jumps. That's mad crazy.
3.) Get a Shadowdancing friend. This should give you a really fun opportunity to work with another shadowdancer to "perfect" or "Synchronize" your strikes.
4.) Knockdown. It's an already over-used tactic, but if you can knock your opponent down for a round- GUESS WHAT, you can Hips again. Score!

That's my two cents. I don't think that the Shadowdancer will be horribly less powerful. I think as a class, yeah- We may have to take a different approach to our battling. We may have to add a bit of preparation to our strikes. Or stash some clever tricks up our sleeves, but..... If all those non-SD's get a brief moment of relaxation and they lower their defenses against the shadows, Wee-he-heeelll, I'm all for that too. :twisted:

still thinking people are not looking at it right and should stop focusing on HiPS....its been balanced by the staff, they wont change it back so end of story.

now that we have all cleared up,Ignore HiPS for a second when looking at Shadowdancers, they are a poorly scaled class and should be looked at to make the high levels of the class offer something.

I pointed out befor how the shadow evade is lackluster, and even more so how two of the three parts of shadow evade dont scale past level 10.
I just dont think its fair for people to write off the class as fine, or overpowered because of one skill the class has, the class is not fine as a whole, it could use some love like how Shifter,Assassin,Knight commander amd Master scout got.

This topic is literally named "hips nerf". No, I don't think people are focusing on the wrong thing. Bring this up in another topic or something,

Well, how about the Academy researching and inventing new shadowdancing skills that at first can only be used by Person A, but can be taught through RP like Shadow Jump. That sounds more reasonable way to go about SD improvements than "Wah! D: SDs really suck. Wah."

Mr. Hackums wrote:

This topic is literally named "hips nerf". No, I don't think people are focusing on the wrong thing. Bring this up in another topic or something,

yes but people seem to think HiPS and Shadow dancer is the same word and use it as such.
Shadowdancers were not over powered, HiPS was, much like how some people said "shifters were overpowered" no Monk Wisdom AC on Shifters in Dragon form was over powered.... not shifters.

so if anything its more of a pet peeve of mine seeing it used as such.

corypx wrote:

still thinking people are not looking at it right and should stop focusing on HiPS....its been balanced by the staff, they wont change it back so end of story.

now that we have all cleared up,Ignore HiPS for a second when looking at Shadowdancers, they are a poorly scaled class and should be looked at to make the high levels of the class offer something.

I pointed out befor how the shadow evade is lackluster, and even more so how two of the three parts of shadow evade dont scale past level 10.
I just dont think its fair for people to write off the class as fine, or overpowered because of one skill the class has, the class is not fine as a whole, it could use some love like how Shifter,Assassin,Knight commander amd Master scout got.

This has already been discussed and decided on behind the curtain.

Tomato Sword wrote:

Well, how about the Academy researching and inventing new shadowdancing skills that at first can only be used by Person A, but can be taught through RP like Shadow Jump. That sounds more reasonable way to go about SD improvements than "Wah! D: SDs really suck. Wah."

And this was done by the academy years ago. :wink:

Several instructors, my own PC included, have quite a few custom techniques that get passed around to the students which spend time there beyond learning how to Shadow Jump.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

And this was done by the academy years ago. :wink:

Several instructors, my own PC included, have quite a few custom techniques that get passed around to the students which spend time there beyond learning how to Shadow Jump.

xD Well! There you go!

JoeSkinner wrote:

CratzBlade113 wrote:

Why are people still complaining? It happened, get over it. Like others have said, if you're playing and SD just for HiPS, then you've no real reason to be playing that class.

These arguments have gotten incredibly ridiculous and way out of control. Yes ,there are gimps to several classes that people like, but people GET OVER IT.

The whole point of picking and playing a class, is to actually PLAY the class, not just grab it, get the good perks from it, spam them to be a unbeatable force, rinse, repeat with another character. For the freaking love of all that's holy, stop these silly arguments.

DMs please, please, PLEASE lock this. If anyone has anything actual to contribute or ask/need clarification from DMs, PLEASE do it over PMs. I'm so fricking tired of seeing entire threads about people bitching and whining about losing "the only thing that made the class worth playing," and people having arguments about stupid little things like this. TAKE IT TO PMS.

You need to relax. That is the whole point of a forum is to discuss things like this. If you dont like it, then dont click on it

Actually discussion should have happened in the improve amia thread, anyone ahve a issue take it up there...and honerstly..this hardly qualifies as a nerf regardless, if you are at the point where you think this ruins everything about your char..then you should probably not be playing a rp server anyway..cause this is really a minor change..it will not affect pve at all, it will barely affect pvp.

Last edited by serbiris on Tue, Mar 06 2012, 0:16 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Improving Amia would imply this is the sort of thing that can/should be changed, though.

Really we are (or should be) just discussing it. Generally. Though it would be nice if people both for or against the change would be just a liiittle more diplomatic about it, but oh well.

Edit: I realised I wanted to say this but I didn't want to spam the thread with another post: SDs don't need to cool down, they're supposed to be hot

Oh for god sake. If you're crying about the friggin' hips spam theres nothing to stop you SMACKING SOMEONE and then running away for six seconds and repeating. You can still be the annoying hips spamming dick, hell its how I fought with Gorthod. I gave them the chance to do something, but people don't expect someone to hit them and run like a whipped rabbit. If this is a huge deal breaker for people just use a bloody ranged weapon and quit your whining.

I might sound mad but this thread has amused me greatly.

No kidding. Apparently if you disagree with a change, you must be stupid/can't play/sickening/fronting/should go play elsewhere/random other offensive crap. I might be a bit of a hypocrite for saying this, but it's really made me take another look at some people I used to think were pretty cool players. It's just not necessary to go there when discussing class changes. Also, when I made my first posts, I misread the cooldown as six rounds. Not six seconds=one round. One round isn't terrible, though I haven't actually gotten HIPS yet to play with it.

Nice change. Epic dodge next, woo?

I think people are being mildly vehement to those that disagree with the change mostly because they've been exploiting an exploit. Either way I'ma lock this now.

HIPS nerf

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